Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 referred to her newfound ability to sip a marguerita or two and " enjoy the pleasure " without feeling the need to get totally blitzed, despite years of being told by people in AA that she is " powerless " to do so. Anyone, in AA or out, who tells me I am " powerless " to have a drink or two neither knows me very well nor understands the program very well. If my 13+ years of being " in and out " of AA have taught me anything, it is that I can drink in moderation consistently for several months. I can even abstain from drinking without AA for several months. What I cannot do is practice either moderation or abstinence for any extended period of time (a year or more) without consistent social support. I know from experience that were I to start drinking tonight, I would probably be able to stop at only a couple of beers and " enjoy the pleasure, " but I'm equally certain, from experience, that within six months or less, I'd be packing away a 12-pack to a case of beer every night all over again. I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , but I am definitely an alcoholic, albeit of the " episodic/cyclic " variety, with a physical allergy to and a mental obsession with alcohol. If you truly can " take it or leave it " after years of out-of-control drinking, therapy, water under the bridge, etc., more power to you, but please don't base your assessment of that ability on what seems, from your post, to be only one or two " successful " incidents. While I disagree with the AA doctrine that " jails, institutions, and death " are necessarily the inescapable fate of any alcoholic who even tries to drink moderately, I don't delude myself into thinking that the risks are completely absent, and know of only a few " ex-alcoholics " with long-term (several years) practice of moderation. By the way, along those lines, I applaud Audrey Kishline for creating Moderation Management. If anything, her " vehicular homicide " incident shows that her program, and the social support and belief in " self-efficacy " that it provides, can actually work, as that incident only occurred after she left the program she created with many years of allegedly successful moderation. It is sad that, from news I've read, her next book, probably written from prison, will be a refutation of the first one. The only reason I haven't started a local MM chapter is because, as a user of daily psychiatric medications, I don't qualify to be a member, nor would I want to risk the dangerous interactions highly probable between those medications and alcohol. Live long and prosper. --CTT __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 referred to her newfound ability to sip a marguerita or two and " enjoy the pleasure " without feeling the need to get totally blitzed, despite years of being told by people in AA that she is " powerless " to do so. Anyone, in AA or out, who tells me I am " powerless " to have a drink or two neither knows me very well nor understands the program very well. If my 13+ years of being " in and out " of AA have taught me anything, it is that I can drink in moderation consistently for several months. I can even abstain from drinking without AA for several months. What I cannot do is practice either moderation or abstinence for any extended period of time (a year or more) without consistent social support. I know from experience that were I to start drinking tonight, I would probably be able to stop at only a couple of beers and " enjoy the pleasure, " but I'm equally certain, from experience, that within six months or less, I'd be packing away a 12-pack to a case of beer every night all over again. I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , but I am definitely an alcoholic, albeit of the " episodic/cyclic " variety, with a physical allergy to and a mental obsession with alcohol. If you truly can " take it or leave it " after years of out-of-control drinking, therapy, water under the bridge, etc., more power to you, but please don't base your assessment of that ability on what seems, from your post, to be only one or two " successful " incidents. While I disagree with the AA doctrine that " jails, institutions, and death " are necessarily the inescapable fate of any alcoholic who even tries to drink moderately, I don't delude myself into thinking that the risks are completely absent, and know of only a few " ex-alcoholics " with long-term (several years) practice of moderation. By the way, along those lines, I applaud Audrey Kishline for creating Moderation Management. If anything, her " vehicular homicide " incident shows that her program, and the social support and belief in " self-efficacy " that it provides, can actually work, as that incident only occurred after she left the program she created with many years of allegedly successful moderation. It is sad that, from news I've read, her next book, probably written from prison, will be a refutation of the first one. The only reason I haven't started a local MM chapter is because, as a user of daily psychiatric medications, I don't qualify to be a member, nor would I want to risk the dangerous interactions highly probable between those medications and alcohol. Live long and prosper. --CTT __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 referred to her newfound ability to sip a marguerita or two and " enjoy the pleasure " without feeling the need to get totally blitzed, despite years of being told by people in AA that she is " powerless " to do so. Anyone, in AA or out, who tells me I am " powerless " to have a drink or two neither knows me very well nor understands the program very well. If my 13+ years of being " in and out " of AA have taught me anything, it is that I can drink in moderation consistently for several months. I can even abstain from drinking without AA for several months. What I cannot do is practice either moderation or abstinence for any extended period of time (a year or more) without consistent social support. I know from experience that were I to start drinking tonight, I would probably be able to stop at only a couple of beers and " enjoy the pleasure, " but I'm equally certain, from experience, that within six months or less, I'd be packing away a 12-pack to a case of beer every night all over again. I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , but I am definitely an alcoholic, albeit of the " episodic/cyclic " variety, with a physical allergy to and a mental obsession with alcohol. If you truly can " take it or leave it " after years of out-of-control drinking, therapy, water under the bridge, etc., more power to you, but please don't base your assessment of that ability on what seems, from your post, to be only one or two " successful " incidents. While I disagree with the AA doctrine that " jails, institutions, and death " are necessarily the inescapable fate of any alcoholic who even tries to drink moderately, I don't delude myself into thinking that the risks are completely absent, and know of only a few " ex-alcoholics " with long-term (several years) practice of moderation. By the way, along those lines, I applaud Audrey Kishline for creating Moderation Management. If anything, her " vehicular homicide " incident shows that her program, and the social support and belief in " self-efficacy " that it provides, can actually work, as that incident only occurred after she left the program she created with many years of allegedly successful moderation. It is sad that, from news I've read, her next book, probably written from prison, will be a refutation of the first one. The only reason I haven't started a local MM chapter is because, as a user of daily psychiatric medications, I don't qualify to be a member, nor would I want to risk the dangerous interactions highly probable between those medications and alcohol. Live long and prosper. --CTT __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 > <malgeo@m...> referred to her newfound > ability to sip a marguerita or two and " enjoy the > pleasure " without feeling the need to get totally > blitzed, despite years of being told by people in AA > that she is " powerless " to do so. > > Anyone, in AA or out, who tells me I am " powerless " to > have a drink or two neither knows me very well nor > understands the program very well. > > If my 13+ years of being " in and out " of AA have > taught me anything, it is that I can drink in > moderation consistently for several months. I can > even abstain from drinking without AA for several > months. What I cannot do is practice either > moderation or abstinence for any extended period of > time (a year or more) without consistent social > support. > > I know from experience that were I to start drinking > tonight, I would probably be able to stop at only a > couple of beers and " enjoy the pleasure, " but I'm > equally certain, from experience, that within six > months or less, I'd be packing away a 12-pack to a > case of beer every night all over again. > > I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , > but I am definitely an alcoholic, albeit of the > " episodic/cyclic " variety, with a physical allergy to > and a mental obsession with alcohol. If you truly can > " take it or leave it " after years of out-of-control > drinking, therapy, water under the bridge, etc., more > power to you, but please don't base your assessment of > that ability on what seems, from your post, to be only > one or two " successful " incidents. I'm puzzled, I can't find where said this. And what if she did? She (I think it was azure) was talking about herself, not you. You seem to applaud Moderation Management in this post, yet seem offended when someone describes an incident of successful moderating. Just asking, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 > <malgeo@m...> referred to her newfound > ability to sip a marguerita or two and " enjoy the > pleasure " without feeling the need to get totally > blitzed, despite years of being told by people in AA > that she is " powerless " to do so. > > Anyone, in AA or out, who tells me I am " powerless " to > have a drink or two neither knows me very well nor > understands the program very well. > > If my 13+ years of being " in and out " of AA have > taught me anything, it is that I can drink in > moderation consistently for several months. I can > even abstain from drinking without AA for several > months. What I cannot do is practice either > moderation or abstinence for any extended period of > time (a year or more) without consistent social > support. > > I know from experience that were I to start drinking > tonight, I would probably be able to stop at only a > couple of beers and " enjoy the pleasure, " but I'm > equally certain, from experience, that within six > months or less, I'd be packing away a 12-pack to a > case of beer every night all over again. > > I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , > but I am definitely an alcoholic, albeit of the > " episodic/cyclic " variety, with a physical allergy to > and a mental obsession with alcohol. If you truly can > " take it or leave it " after years of out-of-control > drinking, therapy, water under the bridge, etc., more > power to you, but please don't base your assessment of > that ability on what seems, from your post, to be only > one or two " successful " incidents. I'm puzzled, I can't find where said this. And what if she did? She (I think it was azure) was talking about herself, not you. You seem to applaud Moderation Management in this post, yet seem offended when someone describes an incident of successful moderating. Just asking, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 Matt gave a lengthy but thought-provoking and entertaining introduction and requests hearing from those who've managed to achieve long-term sobriety outside of AA. I know of very few such people personally, but what seems to be critical among them is that they found something else (church, music, a new vocation/passion) to replace both the drinking and the AA. I can't remember the author's name, but " The REAL 13th Step, " is a great book for more advice on deciding whether or not to " move on " and, if so, how to do it. If you have achieved two years of sobriety within AA, however, Matt, I would strongly reconsider leaving it, not out of fear but out of pure practicality. It obviously works for you. I am one of the apparent few on this list who doesn't openly despise AA, although many who know my story might tell me I should. I am also one of the apparent few who still even goes to AA meetings, but only to a limited number of very specific, extremely laid-back ones. I have " phone numbers and use them, " but they're the numbers of similarly laid-back people. I have no sponsor and work steps ad lib. Unlike some who live, eat, breathe, walk, talk, and excrete AA, I DO have a life. Should you decide to stay, here are my " 12 steps " (in no particular order) for maintaining my sanity and using AA for my purposes rather than the other way around*: *Some of these, and others, by the way, can be found at www.aadeprogramming.com under the section entitled, " For Those Who Still Choose To Go. " 1. Take what you need and leave the rest, just like they say. If you're uncertain as to whether you need a particular thing, try it; you can always change your mind. You can also interpret and/or " work " absolutely anything said or read in a meeting in whatever way works for you. 2. I've known people with 7+ years of sobriety who haven't worked a single step. I've known still more who've worked only the first three and/or the last three. If you can (and want to) get and stay sober from just the " fellowship " without the " program, " or vice-versa, go for it. You have the absolute right to " work it " any way you see fit. 3. Likewise, if you want to just go to meetings and work or attend any other fellowship (RR, SOS, etc.), you have that right as well. If you feel you need more than AA has to offer (psychotherapy, yoga, voodoo), go for it. 4. If you do decide to have a sponsor and it doesn't work out, you can get another one, or do without one. 5. If you go to a meeting and you don't like it, there are other ones. Just like they say, " Every group ought to be autonomous, " not even " is allowed to be, " but " ought to be. " Another colloquialism is that the only requirement for starting a new meeting (which you can run as you see fit) is " a coffee pot and a resentment...and the coffee pot is optional. " 6. You have the right to say no, the right to say maybe, the right to change your mind, and the right to make a mistake. (That's from my second sponsor, a computer geek and retired judge so intellectual and contrarian, but with double-digit years of sobriety, that he used to drive the step-Nazis crazy--then just laugh in their faces and watch them swoon! Had he not moved to California, he would probably still be my sponsor. I loved watching the fundamentalists freak when he would share his unorthodox theology by always introducing himself with, " My name is Mike, and I'm grateful that God chose me to be an alcoholic and an addict. " On interrogation, he would respond, " Hey, if God really exists and is all-powerful and can take the credit for my sobriety, why can't he take the blame for making me this way in the first place? " ) 6. If you encounter people who get on your last nerve, especially control freaks, you can avoid them, or continue to hang around and make THEIR lives miserable, or simply learn some " patience and tolerance, " just like they say. I no longer feel the need to save others, inside or outside AA, from showing their ass. (My " favorite " anti-intellectual pat answer, by the way, is, " That's your disease talking! " My response? " My disease doesn't have a mouth. If you can't answer my questions, keep yours shut. " I even said this once to an " AA guru " who sounds like she's having an orgasm whenever she says the words, " Alcoholics Anonymous. " I thought she and her entourage were going to have a heart attack! Some of her detractors, within earshot, laughed so hard that I thought they might wet their pants!) 7. You will probably hear things you disagree with, don't understand, or consider contradictory in meetings. So what? That's true of life in general. " Rigorous honesty " is completely compatible with " fake it 'til you make it. " Honesty precludes neither discretion nor trying out a new behavior. Another AA homily is that " AA is no hotbed of sanity " ; neither is the world. 8. Likewise, if you suspect others in the program would disapprove of your drinking " near beers, " smoking pot, going to bars, reading " non-AA-approved " recovery literature, etc. then don't tell them. It's none of their business anyway. " Cast not your pearls before swine. " 9. Don't let yourself get too HALT (Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired), but if you do, do something about it (eat, vent/cry, socialize, or sleep). (OK, so I'll give them that one. It's one of the few bits of unofficial advice that everyone, alcoholic or not, would be wise to follow.) 10. Whatever you put ahead of your sobriety will be the second thing you lose (after your sobriety). Likewise, I think this applies to anyone in recovery, whether in or out of AA; substitute the word " moderation " for " sobriety " if that applies. 11. Likewise, you have the right to try moderation if you find abstinence unrealistic. It even says so (in so many words) in the " 12 and 12. " 12. If you decide to try moderation, or simply to leave AA altogether, you can always, if you choose, come back (see #6). Please forgive me if any of this sounds apologetic or dogmatic. It is simply " what works for me. " Whatever you decide, Matt (and everyone), Blessed Be. --Clifton T. (My favorite quote): " We don't see things as they are; we see them as we are. " --Anais Nin __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 Matt gave a lengthy but thought-provoking and entertaining introduction and requests hearing from those who've managed to achieve long-term sobriety outside of AA. I know of very few such people personally, but what seems to be critical among them is that they found something else (church, music, a new vocation/passion) to replace both the drinking and the AA. I can't remember the author's name, but " The REAL 13th Step, " is a great book for more advice on deciding whether or not to " move on " and, if so, how to do it. If you have achieved two years of sobriety within AA, however, Matt, I would strongly reconsider leaving it, not out of fear but out of pure practicality. It obviously works for you. I am one of the apparent few on this list who doesn't openly despise AA, although many who know my story might tell me I should. I am also one of the apparent few who still even goes to AA meetings, but only to a limited number of very specific, extremely laid-back ones. I have " phone numbers and use them, " but they're the numbers of similarly laid-back people. I have no sponsor and work steps ad lib. Unlike some who live, eat, breathe, walk, talk, and excrete AA, I DO have a life. Should you decide to stay, here are my " 12 steps " (in no particular order) for maintaining my sanity and using AA for my purposes rather than the other way around*: *Some of these, and others, by the way, can be found at www.aadeprogramming.com under the section entitled, " For Those Who Still Choose To Go. " 1. Take what you need and leave the rest, just like they say. If you're uncertain as to whether you need a particular thing, try it; you can always change your mind. You can also interpret and/or " work " absolutely anything said or read in a meeting in whatever way works for you. 2. I've known people with 7+ years of sobriety who haven't worked a single step. I've known still more who've worked only the first three and/or the last three. If you can (and want to) get and stay sober from just the " fellowship " without the " program, " or vice-versa, go for it. You have the absolute right to " work it " any way you see fit. 3. Likewise, if you want to just go to meetings and work or attend any other fellowship (RR, SOS, etc.), you have that right as well. If you feel you need more than AA has to offer (psychotherapy, yoga, voodoo), go for it. 4. If you do decide to have a sponsor and it doesn't work out, you can get another one, or do without one. 5. If you go to a meeting and you don't like it, there are other ones. Just like they say, " Every group ought to be autonomous, " not even " is allowed to be, " but " ought to be. " Another colloquialism is that the only requirement for starting a new meeting (which you can run as you see fit) is " a coffee pot and a resentment...and the coffee pot is optional. " 6. You have the right to say no, the right to say maybe, the right to change your mind, and the right to make a mistake. (That's from my second sponsor, a computer geek and retired judge so intellectual and contrarian, but with double-digit years of sobriety, that he used to drive the step-Nazis crazy--then just laugh in their faces and watch them swoon! Had he not moved to California, he would probably still be my sponsor. I loved watching the fundamentalists freak when he would share his unorthodox theology by always introducing himself with, " My name is Mike, and I'm grateful that God chose me to be an alcoholic and an addict. " On interrogation, he would respond, " Hey, if God really exists and is all-powerful and can take the credit for my sobriety, why can't he take the blame for making me this way in the first place? " ) 6. If you encounter people who get on your last nerve, especially control freaks, you can avoid them, or continue to hang around and make THEIR lives miserable, or simply learn some " patience and tolerance, " just like they say. I no longer feel the need to save others, inside or outside AA, from showing their ass. (My " favorite " anti-intellectual pat answer, by the way, is, " That's your disease talking! " My response? " My disease doesn't have a mouth. If you can't answer my questions, keep yours shut. " I even said this once to an " AA guru " who sounds like she's having an orgasm whenever she says the words, " Alcoholics Anonymous. " I thought she and her entourage were going to have a heart attack! Some of her detractors, within earshot, laughed so hard that I thought they might wet their pants!) 7. You will probably hear things you disagree with, don't understand, or consider contradictory in meetings. So what? That's true of life in general. " Rigorous honesty " is completely compatible with " fake it 'til you make it. " Honesty precludes neither discretion nor trying out a new behavior. Another AA homily is that " AA is no hotbed of sanity " ; neither is the world. 8. Likewise, if you suspect others in the program would disapprove of your drinking " near beers, " smoking pot, going to bars, reading " non-AA-approved " recovery literature, etc. then don't tell them. It's none of their business anyway. " Cast not your pearls before swine. " 9. Don't let yourself get too HALT (Hungry, Angry, Lonely, or Tired), but if you do, do something about it (eat, vent/cry, socialize, or sleep). (OK, so I'll give them that one. It's one of the few bits of unofficial advice that everyone, alcoholic or not, would be wise to follow.) 10. Whatever you put ahead of your sobriety will be the second thing you lose (after your sobriety). Likewise, I think this applies to anyone in recovery, whether in or out of AA; substitute the word " moderation " for " sobriety " if that applies. 11. Likewise, you have the right to try moderation if you find abstinence unrealistic. It even says so (in so many words) in the " 12 and 12. " 12. If you decide to try moderation, or simply to leave AA altogether, you can always, if you choose, come back (see #6). Please forgive me if any of this sounds apologetic or dogmatic. It is simply " what works for me. " Whatever you decide, Matt (and everyone), Blessed Be. --Clifton T. (My favorite quote): " We don't see things as they are; we see them as we are. " --Anais Nin __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 At 04:14 PM 2/19/01 -0800, you wrote: > referred to her newfound >ability to sip a marguerita or two and " enjoy the >pleasure " without feeling the need to get totally >blitzed, despite years of being told by people in AA >that she is " powerless " to do so. I don't recall saying any such thing. In fact I don't recall having a margarita at any time in the past 5-6 years at least. I don't even like margaritas. >I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , Probably just as well, since I don't think you know who I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 At 04:14 PM 2/19/01 -0800, you wrote: > referred to her newfound >ability to sip a marguerita or two and " enjoy the >pleasure " without feeling the need to get totally >blitzed, despite years of being told by people in AA >that she is " powerless " to do so. I don't recall saying any such thing. In fact I don't recall having a margarita at any time in the past 5-6 years at least. I don't even like margaritas. >I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , Probably just as well, since I don't think you know who I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 At 04:14 PM 2/19/01 -0800, you wrote: > referred to her newfound >ability to sip a marguerita or two and " enjoy the >pleasure " without feeling the need to get totally >blitzed, despite years of being told by people in AA >that she is " powerless " to do so. I don't recall saying any such thing. In fact I don't recall having a margarita at any time in the past 5-6 years at least. I don't even like margaritas. >I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , Probably just as well, since I don't think you know who I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 Clifton- It is a common misconception that the problem with AA is the members of the Nazi variety. The reality is that people like yourself do more damage to more people than the most devout fire-and-brimstone AA speaker. People who "take what they want and leave the rest" seem to add an air of credibility to the program. You appear to outside observers and newcomers to add an element of balance to the program and seem to many to have formed the type of open-minded attitude about AA they could themselves embrace. Low-cal AA. 99% less fat than the AA you thought you were getting. You claim to be a kinder, gentler AA but are really the same unfortunate lie in a different wrapper. Those who take very little from AA and leave the rest without an exception do take one thing, namely the idea that "I can't stay sober without AA. Without AA I'm nothing." This is simply not true. Those who believe this have been either mislead or too lazy to do their homework. Despite your self-described laid-back appearance you are as much a slave to the AA lie as anyone. Don't kid yourself. You simply pace your cage in a different pattern. How dare you suggest to Matt that he stay because it is the "practical" option for him. I think your exact term was "pure practicality." The Nazis bark "On your knees!.....Character defect!" in one ear and you seductively whisper "It's simply what works for me" in the other. This is a very old trick called Good Cop/Bad Cop and the sole purpose is to break a man down. Nate Re: Digest Number 658 Matt gave a lengthy butthought-provoking and entertaining introduction andrequests hearing from those who've managed to achievelong-term sobriety outside of AA. I know of very few such people personally, but whatseems to be critical among them is that they foundsomething else (church, music, a new vocation/passion)to replace both the drinking and the AA. I can'tremember the author's name, but "The REAL 13th Step,"is a great book for more advice on deciding whether ornot to "move on" and, if so, how to do it.If you have achieved two years of sobriety within AA,however, Matt, I would strongly reconsider leaving it,not out of fear but out of pure practicality. Itobviously works for you. I am one of the apparent few on this list who doesn'topenly despise AA, although many who know my storymight tell me I should. I am also one of the apparent few who still even goesto AA meetings, but only to a limited number of veryspecific, extremely laid-back ones. I have "phone numbers and use them," but they're thenumbers of similarly laid-back people. I have no sponsor and work steps ad lib. Unlike some who live, eat, breathe, walk, talk, andexcrete AA, I DO have a life. Should you decide to stay, here are my "12 steps" (inno particular order) for maintaining my sanity andusing AA for my purposes rather than the other wayaround*: *Some of these, and others, by the way, can be foundat www.aadeprogramming.com under the section entitled,"For Those Who Still Choose To Go."1. Take what you need and leave the rest, just likethey say. If you're uncertain as to whether you needa particular thing, try it; you can always change yourmind. You can also interpret and/or "work" absolutelyanything said or read in a meeting in whatever wayworks for you. 2. I've known people with 7+ years of sobriety whohaven't worked a single step. I've known still morewho've worked only the first three and/or the lastthree. If you can (and want to) get and stay soberfrom just the "fellowship" without the "program," orvice-versa, go for it. You have the absolute right to"work it" any way you see fit.3. Likewise, if you want to just go to meetings andwork or attend any other fellowship (RR, SOS, etc.),you have that right as well. If you feel you needmore than AA has to offer (psychotherapy, yoga,voodoo), go for it.4. If you do decide to have a sponsor and it doesn'twork out, you can get another one, or do without one.5. If you go to a meeting and you don't like it, thereare other ones. Just like they say, "Every groupought to be autonomous," not even "is allowed to be,"but "ought to be." Another colloquialism is that theonly requirement for starting a new meeting (which youcan run as you see fit) is "a coffee pot and aresentment...and the coffee pot is optional." 6. You have the right to say no, the right to saymaybe, the right to change your mind, and the right tomake a mistake. (That's from my second sponsor, a computer geek andretired judge so intellectual and contrarian, but withdouble-digit years of sobriety, that he used to drivethe step-Nazis crazy--then just laugh in their facesand watch them swoon! Had he not moved to California,he would probably still be my sponsor. I lovedwatching the fundamentalists freak when he would sharehis unorthodox theology by always introducing himselfwith, "My name is Mike, and I'm grateful that Godchose me to be an alcoholic and an addict." Oninterrogation, he would respond, "Hey, if God reallyexists and is all-powerful and can take the credit formy sobriety, why can't he take the blame for making methis way in the first place?") 6. If you encounter people who get on your last nerve,especially control freaks, you can avoid them, orcontinue to hang around and make THEIR livesmiserable, or simply learn some "patience andtolerance," just like they say. I no longer feel theneed to save others, inside or outside AA, fromshowing their ass. (My "favorite" anti-intellectual pat answer, by theway, is, "That's your disease talking!" My response? "My disease doesn't have a mouth. If you can't answermy questions, keep yours shut." I even said this onceto an "AA guru" who sounds like she's having an orgasmwhenever she says the words, "Alcoholics Anonymous." I thought she and her entourage were going to have aheart attack! Some of her detractors, within earshot,laughed so hard that I thought they might wet theirpants!)7. You will probably hear things you disagree with,don't understand, or consider contradictory inmeetings. So what? That's true of life in general. "Rigorous honesty" is completely compatible with "fakeit 'til you make it." Honesty precludes neitherdiscretion nor trying out a new behavior. Another AAhomily is that "AA is no hotbed of sanity"; neither isthe world. 8. Likewise, if you suspect others in the programwould disapprove of your drinking "near beers,"smoking pot, going to bars, reading "non-AA-approved"recovery literature, etc. then don't tell them. It'snone of their business anyway. "Cast not your pearlsbefore swine."9. Don't let yourself get too HALT (Hungry, Angry,Lonely, or Tired), but if you do, do something aboutit (eat, vent/cry, socialize, or sleep). (OK, so I'llgive them that one. It's one of the few bits ofunofficial advice that everyone, alcoholic or not,would be wise to follow.)10. Whatever you put ahead of your sobriety will bethe second thing you lose (after your sobriety). Likewise, I think this applies to anyone in recovery,whether in or out of AA; substitute the word"moderation" for "sobriety" if that applies. 11. Likewise, you have the right to try moderation ifyou find abstinence unrealistic. It even says so (inso many words) in the "12 and 12."12. If you decide to try moderation, or simply toleave AA altogether, you can always, if you choose,come back (see #6). Please forgive me if any of this sounds apologetic ordogmatic. It is simply "what works for me." Whateveryou decide, Matt (and everyone), Blessed Be.--Clifton T. (My favorite quote): "We don't see things as theyare; we see them as we are."--Anais Nin__________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 Clifton- It is a common misconception that the problem with AA is the members of the Nazi variety. The reality is that people like yourself do more damage to more people than the most devout fire-and-brimstone AA speaker. People who "take what they want and leave the rest" seem to add an air of credibility to the program. You appear to outside observers and newcomers to add an element of balance to the program and seem to many to have formed the type of open-minded attitude about AA they could themselves embrace. Low-cal AA. 99% less fat than the AA you thought you were getting. You claim to be a kinder, gentler AA but are really the same unfortunate lie in a different wrapper. Those who take very little from AA and leave the rest without an exception do take one thing, namely the idea that "I can't stay sober without AA. Without AA I'm nothing." This is simply not true. Those who believe this have been either mislead or too lazy to do their homework. Despite your self-described laid-back appearance you are as much a slave to the AA lie as anyone. Don't kid yourself. You simply pace your cage in a different pattern. How dare you suggest to Matt that he stay because it is the "practical" option for him. I think your exact term was "pure practicality." The Nazis bark "On your knees!.....Character defect!" in one ear and you seductively whisper "It's simply what works for me" in the other. This is a very old trick called Good Cop/Bad Cop and the sole purpose is to break a man down. Nate Re: Digest Number 658 Matt gave a lengthy butthought-provoking and entertaining introduction andrequests hearing from those who've managed to achievelong-term sobriety outside of AA. I know of very few such people personally, but whatseems to be critical among them is that they foundsomething else (church, music, a new vocation/passion)to replace both the drinking and the AA. I can'tremember the author's name, but "The REAL 13th Step,"is a great book for more advice on deciding whether ornot to "move on" and, if so, how to do it.If you have achieved two years of sobriety within AA,however, Matt, I would strongly reconsider leaving it,not out of fear but out of pure practicality. Itobviously works for you. I am one of the apparent few on this list who doesn'topenly despise AA, although many who know my storymight tell me I should. I am also one of the apparent few who still even goesto AA meetings, but only to a limited number of veryspecific, extremely laid-back ones. I have "phone numbers and use them," but they're thenumbers of similarly laid-back people. I have no sponsor and work steps ad lib. Unlike some who live, eat, breathe, walk, talk, andexcrete AA, I DO have a life. Should you decide to stay, here are my "12 steps" (inno particular order) for maintaining my sanity andusing AA for my purposes rather than the other wayaround*: *Some of these, and others, by the way, can be foundat www.aadeprogramming.com under the section entitled,"For Those Who Still Choose To Go."1. Take what you need and leave the rest, just likethey say. If you're uncertain as to whether you needa particular thing, try it; you can always change yourmind. You can also interpret and/or "work" absolutelyanything said or read in a meeting in whatever wayworks for you. 2. I've known people with 7+ years of sobriety whohaven't worked a single step. I've known still morewho've worked only the first three and/or the lastthree. If you can (and want to) get and stay soberfrom just the "fellowship" without the "program," orvice-versa, go for it. You have the absolute right to"work it" any way you see fit.3. Likewise, if you want to just go to meetings andwork or attend any other fellowship (RR, SOS, etc.),you have that right as well. If you feel you needmore than AA has to offer (psychotherapy, yoga,voodoo), go for it.4. If you do decide to have a sponsor and it doesn'twork out, you can get another one, or do without one.5. If you go to a meeting and you don't like it, thereare other ones. Just like they say, "Every groupought to be autonomous," not even "is allowed to be,"but "ought to be." Another colloquialism is that theonly requirement for starting a new meeting (which youcan run as you see fit) is "a coffee pot and aresentment...and the coffee pot is optional." 6. You have the right to say no, the right to saymaybe, the right to change your mind, and the right tomake a mistake. (That's from my second sponsor, a computer geek andretired judge so intellectual and contrarian, but withdouble-digit years of sobriety, that he used to drivethe step-Nazis crazy--then just laugh in their facesand watch them swoon! Had he not moved to California,he would probably still be my sponsor. I lovedwatching the fundamentalists freak when he would sharehis unorthodox theology by always introducing himselfwith, "My name is Mike, and I'm grateful that Godchose me to be an alcoholic and an addict." Oninterrogation, he would respond, "Hey, if God reallyexists and is all-powerful and can take the credit formy sobriety, why can't he take the blame for making methis way in the first place?") 6. If you encounter people who get on your last nerve,especially control freaks, you can avoid them, orcontinue to hang around and make THEIR livesmiserable, or simply learn some "patience andtolerance," just like they say. I no longer feel theneed to save others, inside or outside AA, fromshowing their ass. (My "favorite" anti-intellectual pat answer, by theway, is, "That's your disease talking!" My response? "My disease doesn't have a mouth. If you can't answermy questions, keep yours shut." I even said this onceto an "AA guru" who sounds like she's having an orgasmwhenever she says the words, "Alcoholics Anonymous." I thought she and her entourage were going to have aheart attack! Some of her detractors, within earshot,laughed so hard that I thought they might wet theirpants!)7. You will probably hear things you disagree with,don't understand, or consider contradictory inmeetings. So what? That's true of life in general. "Rigorous honesty" is completely compatible with "fakeit 'til you make it." Honesty precludes neitherdiscretion nor trying out a new behavior. Another AAhomily is that "AA is no hotbed of sanity"; neither isthe world. 8. Likewise, if you suspect others in the programwould disapprove of your drinking "near beers,"smoking pot, going to bars, reading "non-AA-approved"recovery literature, etc. then don't tell them. It'snone of their business anyway. "Cast not your pearlsbefore swine."9. Don't let yourself get too HALT (Hungry, Angry,Lonely, or Tired), but if you do, do something aboutit (eat, vent/cry, socialize, or sleep). (OK, so I'llgive them that one. It's one of the few bits ofunofficial advice that everyone, alcoholic or not,would be wise to follow.)10. Whatever you put ahead of your sobriety will bethe second thing you lose (after your sobriety). Likewise, I think this applies to anyone in recovery,whether in or out of AA; substitute the word"moderation" for "sobriety" if that applies. 11. Likewise, you have the right to try moderation ifyou find abstinence unrealistic. It even says so (inso many words) in the "12 and 12."12. If you decide to try moderation, or simply toleave AA altogether, you can always, if you choose,come back (see #6). Please forgive me if any of this sounds apologetic ordogmatic. It is simply "what works for me." Whateveryou decide, Matt (and everyone), Blessed Be.--Clifton T. (My favorite quote): "We don't see things as theyare; we see them as we are."--Anais Nin__________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 [snip] > How dare you suggest to Matt that he stay because it is the " practical " option for him. I think your exact term was " pure practicality. " The Nazis bark " On your knees!.....Character defect! " in one ear and you seductively whisper " It's simply what works for me " in the other. This is a very old trick called Good Cop/Bad Cop and the sole purpose is to break a man down. > > Nate YowZa, Nate!!!! Damn, you don't mince your words, do you?!? I have to agree...it was the " reasonable " ones whose hook I swallowed, the nazis were easy to write off. Matt, even if you get sucked back in, do this one thing: remember that there are other points of view and allow yourself to be exposed to them. AA isolates you. It is much harder to think clearly if AA is all that you hear and Clifton just gave you a big earful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 [snip] > How dare you suggest to Matt that he stay because it is the " practical " option for him. I think your exact term was " pure practicality. " The Nazis bark " On your knees!.....Character defect! " in one ear and you seductively whisper " It's simply what works for me " in the other. This is a very old trick called Good Cop/Bad Cop and the sole purpose is to break a man down. > > Nate YowZa, Nate!!!! Damn, you don't mince your words, do you?!? I have to agree...it was the " reasonable " ones whose hook I swallowed, the nazis were easy to write off. Matt, even if you get sucked back in, do this one thing: remember that there are other points of view and allow yourself to be exposed to them. AA isolates you. It is much harder to think clearly if AA is all that you hear and Clifton just gave you a big earful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2001 Report Share Posted February 19, 2001 [snip] > How dare you suggest to Matt that he stay because it is the " practical " option for him. I think your exact term was " pure practicality. " The Nazis bark " On your knees!.....Character defect! " in one ear and you seductively whisper " It's simply what works for me " in the other. This is a very old trick called Good Cop/Bad Cop and the sole purpose is to break a man down. > > Nate YowZa, Nate!!!! Damn, you don't mince your words, do you?!? I have to agree...it was the " reasonable " ones whose hook I swallowed, the nazis were easy to write off. Matt, even if you get sucked back in, do this one thing: remember that there are other points of view and allow yourself to be exposed to them. AA isolates you. It is much harder to think clearly if AA is all that you hear and Clifton just gave you a big earful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2001 Report Share Posted February 20, 2001 > I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , > but I am definitely an alcoholic, albeit of the > " episodic/cyclic " variety, with a physical allergy to > and a mental obsession with alcohol. If you truly can > " take it or leave it " after years of out-of-control > drinking, therapy, water under the bridge, etc., more > power to you, but please don't base your assessment of > that ability on what seems, from your post, to be only > one or two " successful " incidents. Clifton, if wanted to be advised or " warned " about imaginary pending disasters, or if she wanted to hear religious disease dogma under the guise of " your experience, " she'd be on an AA list. You really have some deprogramming to do before you can go around advising people around here. http://www.aahorror.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2001 Report Share Posted February 20, 2001 > I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , > but I am definitely an alcoholic, albeit of the > " episodic/cyclic " variety, with a physical allergy to > and a mental obsession with alcohol. If you truly can > " take it or leave it " after years of out-of-control > drinking, therapy, water under the bridge, etc., more > power to you, but please don't base your assessment of > that ability on what seems, from your post, to be only > one or two " successful " incidents. Clifton, if wanted to be advised or " warned " about imaginary pending disasters, or if she wanted to hear religious disease dogma under the guise of " your experience, " she'd be on an AA list. You really have some deprogramming to do before you can go around advising people around here. http://www.aahorror.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2001 Report Share Posted February 20, 2001 > I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , > but I am definitely an alcoholic, albeit of the > " episodic/cyclic " variety, with a physical allergy to > and a mental obsession with alcohol. If you truly can > " take it or leave it " after years of out-of-control > drinking, therapy, water under the bridge, etc., more > power to you, but please don't base your assessment of > that ability on what seems, from your post, to be only > one or two " successful " incidents. Clifton, if wanted to be advised or " warned " about imaginary pending disasters, or if she wanted to hear religious disease dogma under the guise of " your experience, " she'd be on an AA list. You really have some deprogramming to do before you can go around advising people around here. http://www.aahorror.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2001 Report Share Posted February 20, 2001 > <malgeo@m...> referred to her newfound > ability to sip a marguerita or two and " enjoy the > pleasure " without feeling the need to get totally > blitzed, despite years of being told by people in > AA that she is " powerless " to do so. That wasn't . That was me. > Anyone, in AA or out, who tells me I am " powerless " to > have a drink or two neither knows me very well nor > understands the program very well. Granted, i don't know you from Adam. however, the program tells me " one drink, one drunk. " that is, if i have The Disease. > If my 13+ years of being " in and out " of AA have > taught me anything, it is that I can drink in > moderation consistently for several months. That is precisely what AA taught me i could *not* do. > I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , > but I am definitely an alcoholic, albeit of the > " episodic/cyclic " variety, with a physical allergy to > and a mental obsession with alcohol. If you truly can > " take it or leave it " after years of out-of-control > drinking, therapy, water under the bridge, etc., more > power to you, but please don't base your assessment of > that ability on what seems, from your post, to be only > one or two " successful " incidents. i'm not sure how exactly you extrapolated that. i will not even get into, here, the truth or untruth of your extrapolation... because i smell a setup. First of all, i said precisely what i wanted to say, considering who i thought was my audience; i don't owe it to anyone to take off any more of my clothes than i originally chose to. (iow, it's " none of your business. " ) second, i am guessing here that no matter *what* i say, you would use it to prove a point of yours; my engaging further in wrangling this point would be like fighting with a tar baby. and thank you for your concern, but after decades of responsible adulthood after a youth of acting out, i can manage my own life, thankyouverymuch. i was reading this post and wondering WTF was going on... did i fart in church or something? then i read further and realized i'm once again being chided by an AA member. BTDTBTTS... but on this list, no less! if i did fart, it was in a bathroom. azure, fondly recalling lin's advice to " fart proudly! " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2001 Report Share Posted February 20, 2001 > <malgeo@m...> referred to her newfound > ability to sip a marguerita or two and " enjoy the > pleasure " without feeling the need to get totally > blitzed, despite years of being told by people in > AA that she is " powerless " to do so. That wasn't . That was me. > Anyone, in AA or out, who tells me I am " powerless " to > have a drink or two neither knows me very well nor > understands the program very well. Granted, i don't know you from Adam. however, the program tells me " one drink, one drunk. " that is, if i have The Disease. > If my 13+ years of being " in and out " of AA have > taught me anything, it is that I can drink in > moderation consistently for several months. That is precisely what AA taught me i could *not* do. > I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , > but I am definitely an alcoholic, albeit of the > " episodic/cyclic " variety, with a physical allergy to > and a mental obsession with alcohol. If you truly can > " take it or leave it " after years of out-of-control > drinking, therapy, water under the bridge, etc., more > power to you, but please don't base your assessment of > that ability on what seems, from your post, to be only > one or two " successful " incidents. i'm not sure how exactly you extrapolated that. i will not even get into, here, the truth or untruth of your extrapolation... because i smell a setup. First of all, i said precisely what i wanted to say, considering who i thought was my audience; i don't owe it to anyone to take off any more of my clothes than i originally chose to. (iow, it's " none of your business. " ) second, i am guessing here that no matter *what* i say, you would use it to prove a point of yours; my engaging further in wrangling this point would be like fighting with a tar baby. and thank you for your concern, but after decades of responsible adulthood after a youth of acting out, i can manage my own life, thankyouverymuch. i was reading this post and wondering WTF was going on... did i fart in church or something? then i read further and realized i'm once again being chided by an AA member. BTDTBTTS... but on this list, no less! if i did fart, it was in a bathroom. azure, fondly recalling lin's advice to " fart proudly! " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2001 Report Share Posted February 20, 2001 > <malgeo@m...> referred to her newfound > ability to sip a marguerita or two and " enjoy the > pleasure " without feeling the need to get totally > blitzed, despite years of being told by people in > AA that she is " powerless " to do so. That wasn't . That was me. > Anyone, in AA or out, who tells me I am " powerless " to > have a drink or two neither knows me very well nor > understands the program very well. Granted, i don't know you from Adam. however, the program tells me " one drink, one drunk. " that is, if i have The Disease. > If my 13+ years of being " in and out " of AA have > taught me anything, it is that I can drink in > moderation consistently for several months. That is precisely what AA taught me i could *not* do. > I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , > but I am definitely an alcoholic, albeit of the > " episodic/cyclic " variety, with a physical allergy to > and a mental obsession with alcohol. If you truly can > " take it or leave it " after years of out-of-control > drinking, therapy, water under the bridge, etc., more > power to you, but please don't base your assessment of > that ability on what seems, from your post, to be only > one or two " successful " incidents. i'm not sure how exactly you extrapolated that. i will not even get into, here, the truth or untruth of your extrapolation... because i smell a setup. First of all, i said precisely what i wanted to say, considering who i thought was my audience; i don't owe it to anyone to take off any more of my clothes than i originally chose to. (iow, it's " none of your business. " ) second, i am guessing here that no matter *what* i say, you would use it to prove a point of yours; my engaging further in wrangling this point would be like fighting with a tar baby. and thank you for your concern, but after decades of responsible adulthood after a youth of acting out, i can manage my own life, thankyouverymuch. i was reading this post and wondering WTF was going on... did i fart in church or something? then i read further and realized i'm once again being chided by an AA member. BTDTBTTS... but on this list, no less! if i did fart, it was in a bathroom. azure, fondly recalling lin's advice to " fart proudly! " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2001 Report Share Posted February 20, 2001 --- Nate s wrote: > Clifton- > > > How dare you suggest to Matt that he stay because it > is the " practical " option for him. I think your > exact term was " pure practicality. " The Nazis bark > " On your knees!.....Character defect! " in one ear > and you seductively whisper " It's simply what works > for me " in the other. This is a very old trick > called Good Cop/Bad Cop and the sole purpose is to > break a man down. > > Nate My own personal experience with being at the proverbial " bottom " with my excesses, finding myself incapable of any variety of rational thought, and simply seeing no hope in anything; leaves me, as it leaves many of us, acutely sympathetic and empathetic to fellow shaking, sweating, bloated or emaciated, scared and hopeless folks. Precisely the type that stagger into AA rooms, constantly on the verge of breakdown, just wanting so much as a kind word. I will forever speak to these souls, for, and I agree with AA here, I am no different than they... But now that I have a smidgen of " time " , certainly what sounded like an inconceivable quantity when I first stumbled into a church basement, I want to know what it is, what is this bill of goods, that I'm selling; Do I, ultimately believe in it. And, in attempting to be honest, while always trying to encourage this person to not drink, because I honestly now believe they do not have to, am I simply playing " good cop " , as Nate describes it? On Nate's site, he describes a 'twelfth step' obligation, being his primary reason for staying. I, although still considerably " closer to my last drink " than Nate, already feel that sense. But is it even conscionable to " pass it on " when only the most fundamental aspects of it (don't drink, ask for help, and in time, help someone else), to me, are actually for everyone. When I first came in, I heard a whole lot of " Live and Let Live " (always great advice, for my money), and " take what you want, and leave the rest " (hadn't had occasion, prior to my involvement in AA, to ever hear such advivce, but it does hav it's other useful applications, ideally). Immedaitely, I saw no evidence of these principles, not in the grand scheme of things, amongst the general populace. I knew, then as I do even more so now, that this thing is a bait and switch. Many of you folks don't share my feelings on the following, but this is what AA has given me, at least for today; I do seek humility, as it pertains to alcohol. I am insane, where alcohol is concerned. And, hey, you know what? I'll even go ahead and agree that I'm powerless, when it comes to alcohol. Do I need a God, a mystical, magical, deity, that I suspect I'm " constitutionally incapable " of ever believing in, at least to the mind bogglingly arrogant extent, that such a " Power " would give a rat's ass what goes on in earthbound, human affairs, and will actually intervene, in all instances, so long as I pray to it, humbly, throughout my day? Do I need to confess my sins, to " fellow travellers " , and this deity, or else be doomed to repeat my wrongs? Do I need to defer to 164 pages of text written by a stockbroker, who had managed not to drink in three years, due to his involvement, and brainwashing, at the hands of a turn-of-the-century, fundamentalist- Christian, cult, in every instance? And behave as though this, dated, in parts disproven, piece of text is, in fact, the word of God himself? Should I send a hapless drunk, who wants nothing more that for the pain to end, into a world where 164 pages of text, that, I might add, many of it's screechiest preachers seemingly haven't even bothered to read themselves, and your ability to conform ALL of your thoughts to them, is the thing that your value as a human being is measured against? My disillusionment at realizing that this is a religion, as I'd feared it was, at least if you really want to get what they have, is quite thorough. I don't want to drink, I'll even give them that I'll do it " just for today " , I'll help those who also wish to stop, but I will NEVER suggest to anyone, not ever, that they are diseased, that God is their only hope, and that they stop thinking. So, am I in the right place? I guess we'll see. __________________________________________________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2001 Report Share Posted February 20, 2001 i'd say. " physical allergy to and a mental obsession with alcohol " the first is based on bad science from 1930's advertised as medical fact in AA. the second is just AA mind fuck programing. is clifton really obssesed with alcohol? does he really sit around and think about alcohol all day, as soon as he wakes up? does he hangout at bars just to see it? or is he just obssessed when he goes to aa and hangs around people who spend significant portions of thier day obsesing about thier past abuse? should ex-smokers think of themselves as " obssessed " woth nicotine? im assuming he is sober now and has no physical cravings from withdrawl. if that is case then any obssesion he has msut be in his mind. usualy for obssession, they idea is to not think about what you are obssesed over. dont see how that could be helped in AA, where they are taught to obssese over alcohol for life by branding themselves by thier former habits. i have never heard of anyone claim they were " obssessed " with alcohol before they went to AA, funny, they only say that after they have been indoctrinated. > > > I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , > > but I am definitely an alcoholic, albeit of the > > " episodic/cyclic " variety, with a physical allergy to > > and a mental obsession with alcohol. If you truly can > > " take it or leave it " after years of out-of-control > > drinking, therapy, water under the bridge, etc., more > > power to you, but please don't base your assessment of > > that ability on what seems, from your post, to be only > > one or two " successful " incidents. > > Clifton, if wanted to be advised or " warned " about > imaginary pending disasters, or if she wanted to hear religious > disease dogma under the guise of " your experience, " she'd be on an AA > list. You really have some deprogramming to do before you can go > around advising people around here. > > > http://www.aahorror.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2001 Report Share Posted February 20, 2001 i'd say. " physical allergy to and a mental obsession with alcohol " the first is based on bad science from 1930's advertised as medical fact in AA. the second is just AA mind fuck programing. is clifton really obssesed with alcohol? does he really sit around and think about alcohol all day, as soon as he wakes up? does he hangout at bars just to see it? or is he just obssessed when he goes to aa and hangs around people who spend significant portions of thier day obsesing about thier past abuse? should ex-smokers think of themselves as " obssessed " woth nicotine? im assuming he is sober now and has no physical cravings from withdrawl. if that is case then any obssesion he has msut be in his mind. usualy for obssession, they idea is to not think about what you are obssesed over. dont see how that could be helped in AA, where they are taught to obssese over alcohol for life by branding themselves by thier former habits. i have never heard of anyone claim they were " obssessed " with alcohol before they went to AA, funny, they only say that after they have been indoctrinated. > > > I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , > > but I am definitely an alcoholic, albeit of the > > " episodic/cyclic " variety, with a physical allergy to > > and a mental obsession with alcohol. If you truly can > > " take it or leave it " after years of out-of-control > > drinking, therapy, water under the bridge, etc., more > > power to you, but please don't base your assessment of > > that ability on what seems, from your post, to be only > > one or two " successful " incidents. > > Clifton, if wanted to be advised or " warned " about > imaginary pending disasters, or if she wanted to hear religious > disease dogma under the guise of " your experience, " she'd be on an AA > list. You really have some deprogramming to do before you can go > around advising people around here. > > > http://www.aahorror.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2001 Report Share Posted February 20, 2001 i'd say. " physical allergy to and a mental obsession with alcohol " the first is based on bad science from 1930's advertised as medical fact in AA. the second is just AA mind fuck programing. is clifton really obssesed with alcohol? does he really sit around and think about alcohol all day, as soon as he wakes up? does he hangout at bars just to see it? or is he just obssessed when he goes to aa and hangs around people who spend significant portions of thier day obsesing about thier past abuse? should ex-smokers think of themselves as " obssessed " woth nicotine? im assuming he is sober now and has no physical cravings from withdrawl. if that is case then any obssesion he has msut be in his mind. usualy for obssession, they idea is to not think about what you are obssesed over. dont see how that could be helped in AA, where they are taught to obssese over alcohol for life by branding themselves by thier former habits. i have never heard of anyone claim they were " obssessed " with alcohol before they went to AA, funny, they only say that after they have been indoctrinated. > > > I have no desire to " take your inventory, " , > > but I am definitely an alcoholic, albeit of the > > " episodic/cyclic " variety, with a physical allergy to > > and a mental obsession with alcohol. If you truly can > > " take it or leave it " after years of out-of-control > > drinking, therapy, water under the bridge, etc., more > > power to you, but please don't base your assessment of > > that ability on what seems, from your post, to be only > > one or two " successful " incidents. > > Clifton, if wanted to be advised or " warned " about > imaginary pending disasters, or if she wanted to hear religious > disease dogma under the guise of " your experience, " she'd be on an AA > list. You really have some deprogramming to do before you can go > around advising people around here. > > > http://www.aahorror.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.