Re: test results -- need ideas

August 28, 2005

Hi Topper,

Yes, I completely understand. This is an obscure test

and no one is familiar with it, so it's hard for you

to comment!

All I can say is that it reflects how I feel more than

the blood tests did that I took in June when I was on

2.5 grains. TSH was 0.011 and frees were both just

under the mid-range (and I still felt terrible). T4

didn't look higher (in its own range) than my T3 so I

didn't think I was having a conversion problem, I just

thought I needed a higher dosage!

I need to find out the explanation of why my doctor

says this particular test measures how much hormone

the body is actually using -- how much the tissues are

actually getting affected by, regardless of how much

is available in the blood. Some people can't fully use

what is available in the blood (for various reasons)

-- so for that reason, the free's seem the best out of

all the blood tests but still not always conclusive,

IMO!

Marlena

--- topper2@... wrote:

> My problem is that I've never seen anything on urine

> testing for thyroid

> hormones. Since these do not specify that they are

> Free Ts we have to

> assume that they are totals. Which means you don't

> know how much hormone

> is available for use. Your T4 here is showing very

> high... but how much

> of it is bound and unusable? If a lot of it is

> bound, for whatever

> reason, then there isn't enough available for

> conversion, which could be

> why the T3 is so low in it's range.... Then, if we

> continue to assume

> that these are totals, your available T3 is actually

> below range???

>

> I can't say that the urine tests are more, or less,

> accurate than the

> blood tests, we just don't know for sure what was

> tested (total or free,

> or if they can even differentiate between free and

> bound hormone) and how

> those numbers, in their ranges, compare to what

> we've learned about blood

> levels and ranges.

>

> We know that you aren't feeling as well as you

> should... but we don't

> know why, yet.... Using a totally different testing

> method leaves us in

> the dark... we have no comparison, no experience, to

> know how to

> interpret them.

>

> Just my thoughts.....

>

> Topper ()

>

> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Marlena

> writes:

> Ok y'all, so I finally got my most recent thyroid

> results in but I'm not sure where to go from here.

> My

> doctor is pretty holistic and uses a more obsure

> test

> from a lab called Vitamin Diagnostics. It is a 24 hr

> urine collection. Supposedly it tests the amount of

> hormone your body is actually using ... anyway here

> are my results:

>

> 11/2004 (before treatment):

> T3 621 range 800-1800

> T4 1698 range 1800-3000

>

> 7/05 (since treatment ... it takes a month to get

> the

> results!)

> T3 894 range 800-1800

> T4 3124 range 1800-3000

>

> So it looks like I'm not converting well. Now I'm on

> 3

> grains of Armour plus 3.5 mcg sustained release T3.

> (I

> was actually taking 3 1/4 grains of Armour and 25mcg

> of SR T3 at the time of the test (which was over a

> month ago), but soon after felt so bad and

> eventually

> overstimulated that I cut way back) ... I know my

> consistency hasn't been that good, but I had to cut

> back -- the T3 doesn't have such a long life so it

> seemed ok to me plus the decrease in T4 was probably

> good ... I'm also working with a medical intuitive

> who

> is helping me to figure things out a bit -- she told

> me that the 25 mcg was way too high (which

> correlated

> with my symptoms -- which for me was a feverish

> feeling and ultra fatigue, fast heartbeat -- not

> extra

> energy that's for sure). This doesn't make sense

> with

> my low T3 test result. It would seem that my body

> would want more T3... from my results I'm guessing

> that my original thyroid production is down to zero

> or

> almost zero (my last TSH while on 2.5 grains was

> .011)

> ... I'm just so frustrated ... I felt better on no

> medication whatsoever! And it's scary to me to be

> completely dependent on something that isn't even

> working for me! I've done all the research and been

> the model patient -- doing everything I'm supposed

> to

> be doing ... I really don't know where to go from

> here.

> I do all the things one is supposed to do to enhance

> conversion too ...

>

> My doctor is not telling me anything conclusive

> about

> where I should go from here ...

>

> The weird thing is that I feel worse than before I

> started treatment ... and my latest adrenal test

> results seem to show that my adrenals are actually

> doing ok (although this was an ACTH stimulation test

> to check adrenal reserve and my doctor has to talk

> to

> the lab to get a conclusive interpretation of the 2

> 24

> hr urine collection results which tests a breakdown

> of

> all the adrenal hormones... and he won't be able to

> do

> this for another 2 weeks!). I'm really confused as

> to

> why I would feel worse [for 8 months now -- I'm

> going

> crazy -- things were pretty bad before treatment for

> 10+ years but I was still functioning -- now I'm not

> nearly as functional as before ...]

>

> Every adrenal hormone in the test increased by a

> good

> amount after the stimulation -- which it's supposed

> to

> do -- except the aldosterone. It was a good number

> to

> begin with but then it went down just a little after

> the stimulation. It is supposed to go up ... but

> what

> I don't understand is that apparently the more salt

> you eat, the lower the aldosterone ... aldosterone's

> job is to keep salt in your body, so the more you

> eat,

> the less is needed. Therefore I would think that

> having the surge of cortisol after the test would

> increase salt retention and therefore lower

> aldosterone -- like happened with me -- however it

> says that it is supposed to increase so ... does

> anyone know about this?

>

> I know I'm writing a letter that will be difficult

> to

> respond to -- sorry, I just need to vent ...

>

> Marlena

____________________________________________________

Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

August 28, 2005

Hi Topper,

Yes, I completely understand. This is an obscure test

and no one is familiar with it, so it's hard for you

to comment!

All I can say is that it reflects how I feel more than

the blood tests did that I took in June when I was on

2.5 grains. TSH was 0.011 and frees were both just

under the mid-range (and I still felt terrible). T4

didn't look higher (in its own range) than my T3 so I

didn't think I was having a conversion problem, I just

thought I needed a higher dosage!

I need to find out the explanation of why my doctor

says this particular test measures how much hormone

the body is actually using -- how much the tissues are

actually getting affected by, regardless of how much

is available in the blood. Some people can't fully use

what is available in the blood (for various reasons)

-- so for that reason, the free's seem the best out of

all the blood tests but still not always conclusive,

IMO!

Marlena

--- topper2@... wrote:

> My problem is that I've never seen anything on urine

> testing for thyroid

> hormones. Since these do not specify that they are

> Free Ts we have to

> assume that they are totals. Which means you don't

> know how much hormone

> is available for use. Your T4 here is showing very

> high... but how much

> of it is bound and unusable? If a lot of it is

> bound, for whatever

> reason, then there isn't enough available for

> conversion, which could be

> why the T3 is so low in it's range.... Then, if we

> continue to assume

> that these are totals, your available T3 is actually

> below range???

>

> I can't say that the urine tests are more, or less,

> accurate than the

> blood tests, we just don't know for sure what was

> tested (total or free,

> or if they can even differentiate between free and

> bound hormone) and how

> those numbers, in their ranges, compare to what

> we've learned about blood

> levels and ranges.

>

> We know that you aren't feeling as well as you

> should... but we don't

> know why, yet.... Using a totally different testing

> method leaves us in

> the dark... we have no comparison, no experience, to

> know how to

> interpret them.

>

> Just my thoughts.....

>

> Topper ()

>

> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Marlena

> writes:

> Ok y'all, so I finally got my most recent thyroid

> results in but I'm not sure where to go from here.

> My

> doctor is pretty holistic and uses a more obsure

> test

> from a lab called Vitamin Diagnostics. It is a 24 hr

> urine collection. Supposedly it tests the amount of

> hormone your body is actually using ... anyway here

> are my results:

>

> 11/2004 (before treatment):

> T3 621 range 800-1800

> T4 1698 range 1800-3000

>

> 7/05 (since treatment ... it takes a month to get

> the

> results!)

> T3 894 range 800-1800

> T4 3124 range 1800-3000

>

> So it looks like I'm not converting well. Now I'm on

> 3

> grains of Armour plus 3.5 mcg sustained release T3.

> (I

> was actually taking 3 1/4 grains of Armour and 25mcg

> of SR T3 at the time of the test (which was over a

> month ago), but soon after felt so bad and

> eventually

> overstimulated that I cut way back) ... I know my

> consistency hasn't been that good, but I had to cut

> back -- the T3 doesn't have such a long life so it

> seemed ok to me plus the decrease in T4 was probably

> good ... I'm also working with a medical intuitive

> who

> is helping me to figure things out a bit -- she told

> me that the 25 mcg was way too high (which

> correlated

> with my symptoms -- which for me was a feverish

> feeling and ultra fatigue, fast heartbeat -- not

> extra

> energy that's for sure). This doesn't make sense

> with

> my low T3 test result. It would seem that my body

> would want more T3... from my results I'm guessing

> that my original thyroid production is down to zero

> or

> almost zero (my last TSH while on 2.5 grains was

> .011)

> ... I'm just so frustrated ... I felt better on no

> medication whatsoever! And it's scary to me to be

> completely dependent on something that isn't even

> working for me! I've done all the research and been

> the model patient -- doing everything I'm supposed

> to

> be doing ... I really don't know where to go from

> here.

> I do all the things one is supposed to do to enhance

> conversion too ...

>

> My doctor is not telling me anything conclusive

> about

> where I should go from here ...

>

> The weird thing is that I feel worse than before I

> started treatment ... and my latest adrenal test

> results seem to show that my adrenals are actually

> doing ok (although this was an ACTH stimulation test

> to check adrenal reserve and my doctor has to talk

> to

> the lab to get a conclusive interpretation of the 2

> 24

> hr urine collection results which tests a breakdown

> of

> all the adrenal hormones... and he won't be able to

> do

> this for another 2 weeks!). I'm really confused as

> to

> why I would feel worse [for 8 months now -- I'm

> going

> crazy -- things were pretty bad before treatment for

> 10+ years but I was still functioning -- now I'm not

> nearly as functional as before ...]

>

> Every adrenal hormone in the test increased by a

> good

> amount after the stimulation -- which it's supposed

> to

> do -- except the aldosterone. It was a good number

> to

> begin with but then it went down just a little after

> the stimulation. It is supposed to go up ... but

> what

> I don't understand is that apparently the more salt

> you eat, the lower the aldosterone ... aldosterone's

> job is to keep salt in your body, so the more you

> eat,

> the less is needed. Therefore I would think that

> having the surge of cortisol after the test would

> increase salt retention and therefore lower

> aldosterone -- like happened with me -- however it

> says that it is supposed to increase so ... does

> anyone know about this?

>

> I know I'm writing a letter that will be difficult

> to

> respond to -- sorry, I just need to vent ...

>

> Marlena

____________________________________________________

Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

August 28, 2005

Hi Topper,

Yes, I completely understand. This is an obscure test

and no one is familiar with it, so it's hard for you

to comment!

All I can say is that it reflects how I feel more than

the blood tests did that I took in June when I was on

2.5 grains. TSH was 0.011 and frees were both just

under the mid-range (and I still felt terrible). T4

didn't look higher (in its own range) than my T3 so I

didn't think I was having a conversion problem, I just

thought I needed a higher dosage!

I need to find out the explanation of why my doctor

says this particular test measures how much hormone

the body is actually using -- how much the tissues are

actually getting affected by, regardless of how much

is available in the blood. Some people can't fully use

what is available in the blood (for various reasons)

-- so for that reason, the free's seem the best out of

all the blood tests but still not always conclusive,

IMO!

Marlena

--- topper2@... wrote:

> My problem is that I've never seen anything on urine

> testing for thyroid

> hormones. Since these do not specify that they are

> Free Ts we have to

> assume that they are totals. Which means you don't

> know how much hormone

> is available for use. Your T4 here is showing very

> high... but how much

> of it is bound and unusable? If a lot of it is

> bound, for whatever

> reason, then there isn't enough available for

> conversion, which could be

> why the T3 is so low in it's range.... Then, if we

> continue to assume

> that these are totals, your available T3 is actually

> below range???

>

> I can't say that the urine tests are more, or less,

> accurate than the

> blood tests, we just don't know for sure what was

> tested (total or free,

> or if they can even differentiate between free and

> bound hormone) and how

> those numbers, in their ranges, compare to what

> we've learned about blood

> levels and ranges.

>

> We know that you aren't feeling as well as you

> should... but we don't

> know why, yet.... Using a totally different testing

> method leaves us in

> the dark... we have no comparison, no experience, to

> know how to

> interpret them.

>

> Just my thoughts.....

>

> Topper ()

>

> On Fri, 26 Aug 2005 22:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Marlena

> writes:

> Ok y'all, so I finally got my most recent thyroid

> results in but I'm not sure where to go from here.

> My

> doctor is pretty holistic and uses a more obsure

> test

> from a lab called Vitamin Diagnostics. It is a 24 hr

> urine collection. Supposedly it tests the amount of

> hormone your body is actually using ... anyway here

> are my results:

>

> 11/2004 (before treatment):

> T3 621 range 800-1800

> T4 1698 range 1800-3000

>

> 7/05 (since treatment ... it takes a month to get

> the

> results!)

> T3 894 range 800-1800

> T4 3124 range 1800-3000

>

> So it looks like I'm not converting well. Now I'm on

> 3

> grains of Armour plus 3.5 mcg sustained release T3.

> (I

> was actually taking 3 1/4 grains of Armour and 25mcg

> of SR T3 at the time of the test (which was over a

> month ago), but soon after felt so bad and

> eventually

> overstimulated that I cut way back) ... I know my

> consistency hasn't been that good, but I had to cut

> back -- the T3 doesn't have such a long life so it

> seemed ok to me plus the decrease in T4 was probably

> good ... I'm also working with a medical intuitive

> who

> is helping me to figure things out a bit -- she told

> me that the 25 mcg was way too high (which

> correlated

> with my symptoms -- which for me was a feverish

> feeling and ultra fatigue, fast heartbeat -- not

> extra

> energy that's for sure). This doesn't make sense

> with

> my low T3 test result. It would seem that my body

> would want more T3... from my results I'm guessing

> that my original thyroid production is down to zero

> or

> almost zero (my last TSH while on 2.5 grains was

> .011)

> ... I'm just so frustrated ... I felt better on no

> medication whatsoever! And it's scary to me to be

> completely dependent on something that isn't even

> working for me! I've done all the research and been

> the model patient -- doing everything I'm supposed

> to

> be doing ... I really don't know where to go from

> here.

> I do all the things one is supposed to do to enhance

> conversion too ...

>

> My doctor is not telling me anything conclusive

> about

> where I should go from here ...

>

> The weird thing is that I feel worse than before I

> started treatment ... and my latest adrenal test

> results seem to show that my adrenals are actually

> doing ok (although this was an ACTH stimulation test

> to check adrenal reserve and my doctor has to talk

> to

> the lab to get a conclusive interpretation of the 2

> 24

> hr urine collection results which tests a breakdown

> of

> all the adrenal hormones... and he won't be able to

> do

> this for another 2 weeks!). I'm really confused as

> to

> why I would feel worse [for 8 months now -- I'm

> going

> crazy -- things were pretty bad before treatment for

> 10+ years but I was still functioning -- now I'm not

> nearly as functional as before ...]

>

> Every adrenal hormone in the test increased by a

> good

> amount after the stimulation -- which it's supposed

> to

> do -- except the aldosterone. It was a good number

> to

> begin with but then it went down just a little after

> the stimulation. It is supposed to go up ... but

> what

> I don't understand is that apparently the more salt

> you eat, the lower the aldosterone ... aldosterone's

> job is to keep salt in your body, so the more you

> eat,

> the less is needed. Therefore I would think that

> having the surge of cortisol after the test would

> increase salt retention and therefore lower

> aldosterone -- like happened with me -- however it

> says that it is supposed to increase so ... does

> anyone know about this?

>

> I know I'm writing a letter that will be difficult

> to

> respond to -- sorry, I just need to vent ...

>

> Marlena

____________________________________________________

Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

August 28, 2005

Hi E,

I know, I have studied Dr Lowe's website, book, and

have had several phone consultations with him! I was

against even trying timed release T3 but when I felt

worse after the plain T3 I thought I would give it a

try because my doctor wanted me to. I didn't feel

worse on it until I got up to 27 mcg ... then I spoke

to a medical intuitive who told me that my body

prefers the

timed release kind -- so since this confirmed my own

observations, I'm going with it for now. It could be

simply because the plain is exhausting my aldosterone

levels more or something. I have to wait for over 2

weeks to find out about this from my doctor (I'm so

frustrated I have to wait more!) ...

Marlena

--- E Gillespie wrote:

>

> Marlena:

>

> Dr. Lowe says It is TRUE that sustained release t3

> doesn't not get into the receptors the way the t3 in

> a Cytomel or Armour would. If you took a Cytomel

> pill and it was too much all at once...you would

> have a bad reaction. If you took one in small dose

> and worked your way into a higher dose you would

> have lot less reaction and better feeling. I would

> think this would be even more true if you were also

> taking Armour.

>

> I too tried time release t3 and it was like I wasn't

> taking anything. I was on straight t4 with it and

> the t4 stuck out in the labs the way yours does

> now...plus I was taking some other meds that were

> interfering.

>

> Not an easy thing to track down...stupid docs never

> did a thing to educate me.

>

> ~E:)

>

> Marlena wrote:Hi Kats,

> Thanks for your reply ... I'll answer your questions

> in text ...

>

> --- kats3boys wrote:

>

> >

> > > Ok y'all, so I finally got my most recent

> thyroid

> > > results in but I'm not sure where to go from

> here.

> > My

> > > doctor is pretty holistic and uses a more obsure

> > test

> > > from a lab called Vitamin Diagnostics. It is a

> 24

> > hr

> > > urine collection. Supposedly it tests the amount

> > of

> > > hormone your body is actually using ... anyway

> > here

> > > are my results:

> > >

> > > 11/2004 (before treatment):

> > > T3 621 range 800-1800

> > > T4 1698 range 1800-3000

> > >

> > > 7/05 (since treatment ... it takes a month to

> get

> > the

> > > results!)

> > > T3 894 range 800-1800

> > > T4 3124 range 1800-3000

> > >

> > I agree that you are not converting well..you need

> > T3 but you also

> > need your body to be able to use the T3..one idea

> is

> > to not use SR T3

> > and multidose during the day so your body gets a

> > more even dose

> > during the day until your body is able to tolerate

> > larger amounts of

> > T3.

> >

> So you think that plain T3 multi-dosed would give a

> more even supply of T3 than sustained release T3

> (which is made in order to give a more even supply)?

>

> > Another idea is as to why you are not converting?

> > Adrenal support is

> > good but some times it can through the balance

> > off..if you support

> > one it lowers the others..

>

> Yes, this is true ... but adrenals support was

> definitely necessary from tests I took before doing

> adrenal support -- they showed it was necessary! I'm

> now wondering if the hydrocortisone I am taking is

> helping my cortisol producing layer of my adrenals

> but

> the aldosterone producing layer may not be getting

> enough support (my aldosterone went down instead of

> up after the stimulation)...

>

> >

> > Few questions..how many times a day do you take

> your

> > Armour and T3

> > and do you do it sublingually?, empty stomach?

>

> I have experimented with multi-dosing but it didn't

> seem to help me. So I take it once daily,

> sublingually, and on an empty stomach -- just in

> case!

> The SR T3 only needs to be taken once a day --

> because

> small amounts of it get released over the course of

> the day ... I also experimented with taking plain T3

> and it seemed to make me feel worse -- perhaps it

> was

> too strong for my adrenals to handle -- don't

> know???

>

> > How old are you? Are you menopausal or

> > perimenopausal?

>

> I'm only 29 : (

>

> > Other than the ACTH test have you had other

> hormone

> > tests done?

>

> I've had a 4x/day saliva test for my cortisol/DHEA

> levels several times ... the 2 thyroid antibody

> tests

> results (when on 1.5 grains) were both negative

> (<2)--

> I should have had them tested before treatment but I

> didn't know I was supposed to! When on 2.5 grains,

> TSH: 0.011, Free T4: 1.1 range 0.8-1.8, Free T3: 3.1

> range 2.3-4.2

>

> > I believe as a general rule you want to have your

> T4

> > in the upper 2/3

> > range so..near 2600.. and your T3 closer to the

> > upper end of the

> > range so 1600? These of course vary with how you

> > feel?

> >

> > Does this test tell circulating T4 in the system

> or

> > just free's?

>

> This test is very different from any of the blood

> tests, I think. I believe the free's test how much

> is

> available in the blood to be used ... and this test

> shows how much was actually used -- so if someone is

> thyroid hormone resistant or for whatever reason the

> tissues are unable to use all the hormone available

> in

> the blood, this will show that.

>

> > I think Armour is 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3 so

> at

> > 3 1/2 grains of

> > Armour you are only taking 133 mcg of T4 and your

> T4

> > number seems

> > really high for such a low dose of T4..

>

> Actually I was only on 3 1/4 grains for that test,

> but

> yes, I agree with you that my T4 seems inordinantly

> high. I'm thinking that for whatever reason (perhaps

> the aldosterone problem), my body can not tolerate

> an

> increased metabolism (that would result from an

> increased T3 level) because that would speed up the

> rate at which the aldosterone (for instance) is

> cleared and if my body can't produce adequate

> amounts

> to keep up, than I will suffer more, so my body is

> adjusting by keeping the T4 unconverted -- hence it

> is

> building up ... but I really have no idea, just a

> theory!

>

> I think high

> > levels of

> > estrogen in your body can cause the T4 to be bound

> > and would explain

> > the loss of conversion..

> >

>

> That's interesting. I have never been tested but I

> do

> use natural progesterone cream for the 2nd half of

> my

> cycle to deal with PMS etc.

>

> > Some others probabley have more ideas but I am

> > thinking either

> > testing for hormone resistance in which case you

> may

> > need to switch

> > dominantly to T3..

>

> How do you test for T3 resistance (other than the

> test

> I took)? I have thought about taking only T3 but I

> need to make sure my adrenals and whatever else can

> handle it -- I will definitely be looking into this

> though --thanks!

>

> > Sellium helps with conversion..

>

> I am taking Selenium -- 400mcg for several months

> and

> now 300 ... the thyroid test I took measures

> selenium

> as well, and before I started supplementing (and

> before thyroid treatment) my level was 5, range

> 15-160! With this last test it was thankfully up to

> 92!

>

> Glucose, sodium and

> > a few others

> > effect conversion as well as liver disease. And

> > should be tested.

>

> I had my fasting glucose tested and it was 82, range

> 60-99 -- so that seemed good. I also have a blood

> glucose monitor at home that I take myself from time

> to time and it always seems fine ...

>

> Sodium is on the low side but normal, 138, range

> 136-146. This probably reflects the aldosterone

> issue.

> Aldosterone's job is to keep sodium in the body ...

> although potassium was even lower, 3.6, range

> 3.6-5.2

> -- so I'm not sure how that relates. I'm

> supplementing

> with both ...

>

> > Estrogen levels effect hormone levels adversely ,

> > not sure about

> > progesterone and androgen but I would get these

> > levels checked..

>

> That's a good idea.

>

> > Kats3boys

> > ( I am tired and just got off work so if I made an

> > oops I am sorry,

> > dyed my hair blond so I would have an excuse..)

>

> No problem. I really appreciate you taking the time

> to

> think this over and ask me questions -- anything you

> have to add is very welcomed!

>

> Marlena

>

> __________________________________

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August 28, 2005

Hi E,

I know, I have studied Dr Lowe's website, book, and

have had several phone consultations with him! I was

against even trying timed release T3 but when I felt

worse after the plain T3 I thought I would give it a

try because my doctor wanted me to. I didn't feel

worse on it until I got up to 27 mcg ... then I spoke

to a medical intuitive who told me that my body

prefers the

timed release kind -- so since this confirmed my own

observations, I'm going with it for now. It could be

simply because the plain is exhausting my aldosterone

levels more or something. I have to wait for over 2

weeks to find out about this from my doctor (I'm so

frustrated I have to wait more!) ...

Marlena

--- E Gillespie wrote:

>

> Marlena:

>

> Dr. Lowe says It is TRUE that sustained release t3

> doesn't not get into the receptors the way the t3 in

> a Cytomel or Armour would. If you took a Cytomel

> pill and it was too much all at once...you would

> have a bad reaction. If you took one in small dose

> and worked your way into a higher dose you would

> have lot less reaction and better feeling. I would

> think this would be even more true if you were also

> taking Armour.

>

> I too tried time release t3 and it was like I wasn't

> taking anything. I was on straight t4 with it and

> the t4 stuck out in the labs the way yours does

> now...plus I was taking some other meds that were

> interfering.

>

> Not an easy thing to track down...stupid docs never

> did a thing to educate me.

>

> ~E:)

>

> Marlena wrote:Hi Kats,

> Thanks for your reply ... I'll answer your questions

> in text ...

>

> --- kats3boys wrote:

>

> >

> > > Ok y'all, so I finally got my most recent

> thyroid

> > > results in but I'm not sure where to go from

> here.

> > My

> > > doctor is pretty holistic and uses a more obsure

> > test

> > > from a lab called Vitamin Diagnostics. It is a

> 24

> > hr

> > > urine collection. Supposedly it tests the amount

> > of

> > > hormone your body is actually using ... anyway

> > here

> > > are my results:

> > >

> > > 11/2004 (before treatment):

> > > T3 621 range 800-1800

> > > T4 1698 range 1800-3000

> > >

> > > 7/05 (since treatment ... it takes a month to

> get

> > the

> > > results!)

> > > T3 894 range 800-1800

> > > T4 3124 range 1800-3000

> > >

> > I agree that you are not converting well..you need

> > T3 but you also

> > need your body to be able to use the T3..one idea

> is

> > to not use SR T3

> > and multidose during the day so your body gets a

> > more even dose

> > during the day until your body is able to tolerate

> > larger amounts of

> > T3.

> >

> So you think that plain T3 multi-dosed would give a

> more even supply of T3 than sustained release T3

> (which is made in order to give a more even supply)?

>

> > Another idea is as to why you are not converting?

> > Adrenal support is

> > good but some times it can through the balance

> > off..if you support

> > one it lowers the others..

>

> Yes, this is true ... but adrenals support was

> definitely necessary from tests I took before doing

> adrenal support -- they showed it was necessary! I'm

> now wondering if the hydrocortisone I am taking is

> helping my cortisol producing layer of my adrenals

> but

> the aldosterone producing layer may not be getting

> enough support (my aldosterone went down instead of

> up after the stimulation)...

>

> >

> > Few questions..how many times a day do you take

> your

> > Armour and T3

> > and do you do it sublingually?, empty stomach?

>

> I have experimented with multi-dosing but it didn't

> seem to help me. So I take it once daily,

> sublingually, and on an empty stomach -- just in

> case!

> The SR T3 only needs to be taken once a day --

> because

> small amounts of it get released over the course of

> the day ... I also experimented with taking plain T3

> and it seemed to make me feel worse -- perhaps it

> was

> too strong for my adrenals to handle -- don't

> know???

>

> > How old are you? Are you menopausal or

> > perimenopausal?

>

> I'm only 29 : (

>

> > Other than the ACTH test have you had other

> hormone

> > tests done?

>

> I've had a 4x/day saliva test for my cortisol/DHEA

> levels several times ... the 2 thyroid antibody

> tests

> results (when on 1.5 grains) were both negative

> (<2)--

> I should have had them tested before treatment but I

> didn't know I was supposed to! When on 2.5 grains,

> TSH: 0.011, Free T4: 1.1 range 0.8-1.8, Free T3: 3.1

> range 2.3-4.2

>

> > I believe as a general rule you want to have your

> T4

> > in the upper 2/3

> > range so..near 2600.. and your T3 closer to the

> > upper end of the

> > range so 1600? These of course vary with how you

> > feel?

> >

> > Does this test tell circulating T4 in the system

> or

> > just free's?

>

> This test is very different from any of the blood

> tests, I think. I believe the free's test how much

> is

> available in the blood to be used ... and this test

> shows how much was actually used -- so if someone is

> thyroid hormone resistant or for whatever reason the

> tissues are unable to use all the hormone available

> in

> the blood, this will show that.

>

> > I think Armour is 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3 so

> at

> > 3 1/2 grains of

> > Armour you are only taking 133 mcg of T4 and your

> T4

> > number seems

> > really high for such a low dose of T4..

>

> Actually I was only on 3 1/4 grains for that test,

> but

> yes, I agree with you that my T4 seems inordinantly

> high. I'm thinking that for whatever reason (perhaps

> the aldosterone problem), my body can not tolerate

> an

> increased metabolism (that would result from an

> increased T3 level) because that would speed up the

> rate at which the aldosterone (for instance) is

> cleared and if my body can't produce adequate

> amounts

> to keep up, than I will suffer more, so my body is

> adjusting by keeping the T4 unconverted -- hence it

> is

> building up ... but I really have no idea, just a

> theory!

>

> I think high

> > levels of

> > estrogen in your body can cause the T4 to be bound

> > and would explain

> > the loss of conversion..

> >

>

> That's interesting. I have never been tested but I

> do

> use natural progesterone cream for the 2nd half of

> my

> cycle to deal with PMS etc.

>

> > Some others probabley have more ideas but I am

> > thinking either

> > testing for hormone resistance in which case you

> may

> > need to switch

> > dominantly to T3..

>

> How do you test for T3 resistance (other than the

> test

> I took)? I have thought about taking only T3 but I

> need to make sure my adrenals and whatever else can

> handle it -- I will definitely be looking into this

> though --thanks!

>

> > Sellium helps with conversion..

>

> I am taking Selenium -- 400mcg for several months

> and

> now 300 ... the thyroid test I took measures

> selenium

> as well, and before I started supplementing (and

> before thyroid treatment) my level was 5, range

> 15-160! With this last test it was thankfully up to

> 92!

>

> Glucose, sodium and

> > a few others

> > effect conversion as well as liver disease. And

> > should be tested.

>

> I had my fasting glucose tested and it was 82, range

> 60-99 -- so that seemed good. I also have a blood

> glucose monitor at home that I take myself from time

> to time and it always seems fine ...

>

> Sodium is on the low side but normal, 138, range

> 136-146. This probably reflects the aldosterone

> issue.

> Aldosterone's job is to keep sodium in the body ...

> although potassium was even lower, 3.6, range

> 3.6-5.2

> -- so I'm not sure how that relates. I'm

> supplementing

> with both ...

>

> > Estrogen levels effect hormone levels adversely ,

> > not sure about

> > progesterone and androgen but I would get these

> > levels checked..

>

> That's a good idea.

>

> > Kats3boys

> > ( I am tired and just got off work so if I made an

> > oops I am sorry,

> > dyed my hair blond so I would have an excuse..)

>

> No problem. I really appreciate you taking the time

> to

> think this over and ask me questions -- anything you

> have to add is very welcomed!

>

> Marlena

>

> __________________________________

> Yahoo! Mail

> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the

> tour:

> http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html

>

August 28, 2005

Hi E,

I know, I have studied Dr Lowe's website, book, and

have had several phone consultations with him! I was

against even trying timed release T3 but when I felt

worse after the plain T3 I thought I would give it a

try because my doctor wanted me to. I didn't feel

worse on it until I got up to 27 mcg ... then I spoke

to a medical intuitive who told me that my body

prefers the

timed release kind -- so since this confirmed my own

observations, I'm going with it for now. It could be

simply because the plain is exhausting my aldosterone

levels more or something. I have to wait for over 2

weeks to find out about this from my doctor (I'm so

frustrated I have to wait more!) ...

Marlena

--- E Gillespie wrote:

>

> Marlena:

>

> Dr. Lowe says It is TRUE that sustained release t3

> doesn't not get into the receptors the way the t3 in

> a Cytomel or Armour would. If you took a Cytomel

> pill and it was too much all at once...you would

> have a bad reaction. If you took one in small dose

> and worked your way into a higher dose you would

> have lot less reaction and better feeling. I would

> think this would be even more true if you were also

> taking Armour.

>

> I too tried time release t3 and it was like I wasn't

> taking anything. I was on straight t4 with it and

> the t4 stuck out in the labs the way yours does

> now...plus I was taking some other meds that were

> interfering.

>

> Not an easy thing to track down...stupid docs never

> did a thing to educate me.

>

> ~E:)

>

> Marlena wrote:Hi Kats,

> Thanks for your reply ... I'll answer your questions

> in text ...

>

> --- kats3boys wrote:

>

> >

> > > Ok y'all, so I finally got my most recent

> thyroid

> > > results in but I'm not sure where to go from

> here.

> > My

> > > doctor is pretty holistic and uses a more obsure

> > test

> > > from a lab called Vitamin Diagnostics. It is a

> 24

> > hr

> > > urine collection. Supposedly it tests the amount

> > of

> > > hormone your body is actually using ... anyway

> > here

> > > are my results:

> > >

> > > 11/2004 (before treatment):

> > > T3 621 range 800-1800

> > > T4 1698 range 1800-3000

> > >

> > > 7/05 (since treatment ... it takes a month to

> get

> > the

> > > results!)

> > > T3 894 range 800-1800

> > > T4 3124 range 1800-3000

> > >

> > I agree that you are not converting well..you need

> > T3 but you also

> > need your body to be able to use the T3..one idea

> is

> > to not use SR T3

> > and multidose during the day so your body gets a

> > more even dose

> > during the day until your body is able to tolerate

> > larger amounts of

> > T3.

> >

> So you think that plain T3 multi-dosed would give a

> more even supply of T3 than sustained release T3

> (which is made in order to give a more even supply)?

>

> > Another idea is as to why you are not converting?

> > Adrenal support is

> > good but some times it can through the balance

> > off..if you support

> > one it lowers the others..

>

> Yes, this is true ... but adrenals support was

> definitely necessary from tests I took before doing

> adrenal support -- they showed it was necessary! I'm

> now wondering if the hydrocortisone I am taking is

> helping my cortisol producing layer of my adrenals

> but

> the aldosterone producing layer may not be getting

> enough support (my aldosterone went down instead of

> up after the stimulation)...

>

> >

> > Few questions..how many times a day do you take

> your

> > Armour and T3

> > and do you do it sublingually?, empty stomach?

>

> I have experimented with multi-dosing but it didn't

> seem to help me. So I take it once daily,

> sublingually, and on an empty stomach -- just in

> case!

> The SR T3 only needs to be taken once a day --

> because

> small amounts of it get released over the course of

> the day ... I also experimented with taking plain T3

> and it seemed to make me feel worse -- perhaps it

> was

> too strong for my adrenals to handle -- don't

> know???

>

> > How old are you? Are you menopausal or

> > perimenopausal?

>

> I'm only 29 : (

>

> > Other than the ACTH test have you had other

> hormone

> > tests done?

>

> I've had a 4x/day saliva test for my cortisol/DHEA

> levels several times ... the 2 thyroid antibody

> tests

> results (when on 1.5 grains) were both negative

> (<2)--

> I should have had them tested before treatment but I

> didn't know I was supposed to! When on 2.5 grains,

> TSH: 0.011, Free T4: 1.1 range 0.8-1.8, Free T3: 3.1

> range 2.3-4.2

>

> > I believe as a general rule you want to have your

> T4

> > in the upper 2/3

> > range so..near 2600.. and your T3 closer to the

> > upper end of the

> > range so 1600? These of course vary with how you

> > feel?

> >

> > Does this test tell circulating T4 in the system

> or

> > just free's?

>

> This test is very different from any of the blood

> tests, I think. I believe the free's test how much

> is

> available in the blood to be used ... and this test

> shows how much was actually used -- so if someone is

> thyroid hormone resistant or for whatever reason the

> tissues are unable to use all the hormone available

> in

> the blood, this will show that.

>

> > I think Armour is 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3 so

> at

> > 3 1/2 grains of

> > Armour you are only taking 133 mcg of T4 and your

> T4

> > number seems

> > really high for such a low dose of T4..

>

> Actually I was only on 3 1/4 grains for that test,

> but

> yes, I agree with you that my T4 seems inordinantly

> high. I'm thinking that for whatever reason (perhaps

> the aldosterone problem), my body can not tolerate

> an

> increased metabolism (that would result from an

> increased T3 level) because that would speed up the

> rate at which the aldosterone (for instance) is

> cleared and if my body can't produce adequate

> amounts

> to keep up, than I will suffer more, so my body is

> adjusting by keeping the T4 unconverted -- hence it

> is

> building up ... but I really have no idea, just a

> theory!

>

> I think high

> > levels of

> > estrogen in your body can cause the T4 to be bound

> > and would explain

> > the loss of conversion..

> >

>

> That's interesting. I have never been tested but I

> do

> use natural progesterone cream for the 2nd half of

> my

> cycle to deal with PMS etc.

>

> > Some others probabley have more ideas but I am

> > thinking either

> > testing for hormone resistance in which case you

> may

> > need to switch

> > dominantly to T3..

>

> How do you test for T3 resistance (other than the

> test

> I took)? I have thought about taking only T3 but I

> need to make sure my adrenals and whatever else can

> handle it -- I will definitely be looking into this

> though --thanks!

>

> > Sellium helps with conversion..

>

> I am taking Selenium -- 400mcg for several months

> and

> now 300 ... the thyroid test I took measures

> selenium

> as well, and before I started supplementing (and

> before thyroid treatment) my level was 5, range

> 15-160! With this last test it was thankfully up to

> 92!

>

> Glucose, sodium and

> > a few others

> > effect conversion as well as liver disease. And

> > should be tested.

>

> I had my fasting glucose tested and it was 82, range

> 60-99 -- so that seemed good. I also have a blood

> glucose monitor at home that I take myself from time

> to time and it always seems fine ...

>

> Sodium is on the low side but normal, 138, range

> 136-146. This probably reflects the aldosterone

> issue.

> Aldosterone's job is to keep sodium in the body ...

> although potassium was even lower, 3.6, range

> 3.6-5.2

> -- so I'm not sure how that relates. I'm

> supplementing

> with both ...

>

> > Estrogen levels effect hormone levels adversely ,

> > not sure about

> > progesterone and androgen but I would get these

> > levels checked..

>

> That's a good idea.

>

> > Kats3boys

> > ( I am tired and just got off work so if I made an

> > oops I am sorry,

> > dyed my hair blond so I would have an excuse..)

>

> No problem. I really appreciate you taking the time

> to

> think this over and ask me questions -- anything you

> have to add is very welcomed!

>

> Marlena

>

> __________________________________

> Yahoo! Mail

> Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the

> tour:

> http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html

>

August 28, 2005

If your frees were both about mid range with those other tests, to me that is still showing that you don't have enough T3 in your system and that accounts for your hypo symptoms...

Would you mind running through what you are specifically doing to help with conversion... supplements, what you avoid, lifestyle/eating changes...... I'm asking you, instead of listing, just to get you to think about what you are consciously doing...

....there is a little something that is being missed and /or the dose is still too low... maybe going over some stuff and reviewing might bring something to light....

The reason I say that is that I recently, in the last two weeks, did another trial on myself to reduce the number of doses of thyroid that I take in a day (without reducing the total taken per day) and I still can't do it... I was crashing before the next dosing time... even falling asleep while sitting in a chair and holding my mouse.. and get this, I was holding down the left mouse button on a close icon on the screen and held it that way for I have no idea how long, while I slept. What woke me was the need to go to the bathroom.

I tried that schedule, four doses per day, for four days.... then went back to a six dose per day schedule and I'm okay again. Keep in mind that the total amount per day was the same, the only change was the amount I took per dose and how many doses per day....

Some of us are just really persnickety and it might take some investigation to find out what your body wants you to do....

Topper () *who's still willing to deal with multi-dosing if it means that I can feel this much better than I did for all those years*

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Marlena writes:

Hi Topper,Yes, I completely understand. This is an obscure testand no one is familiar with it, so it's hard for youto comment!All I can say is that it reflects how I feel more thanthe blood tests did that I took in June when I was on2.5 grains. TSH was 0.011 and frees were both justunder the mid-range (and I still felt terrible). T4didn't look higher (in its own range) than my T3 so Ididn't think I was having a conversion problem, I justthought I needed a higher dosage!I need to find out the explanation of why my doctorsays this particular test measures how much hormonethe body is actually using -- how much the tissues areactually getting affected by, regardless of how muchis available in the blood. Some people can't fully usewhat is available in the blood (for various reasons)-- so for that reason, the free's seem the best out ofall the blood tests but still not always conclusive,IMO!Marlena

August 28, 2005

If your frees were both about mid range with those other tests, to me that is still showing that you don't have enough T3 in your system and that accounts for your hypo symptoms...

Would you mind running through what you are specifically doing to help with conversion... supplements, what you avoid, lifestyle/eating changes...... I'm asking you, instead of listing, just to get you to think about what you are consciously doing...

....there is a little something that is being missed and /or the dose is still too low... maybe going over some stuff and reviewing might bring something to light....

The reason I say that is that I recently, in the last two weeks, did another trial on myself to reduce the number of doses of thyroid that I take in a day (without reducing the total taken per day) and I still can't do it... I was crashing before the next dosing time... even falling asleep while sitting in a chair and holding my mouse.. and get this, I was holding down the left mouse button on a close icon on the screen and held it that way for I have no idea how long, while I slept. What woke me was the need to go to the bathroom.

I tried that schedule, four doses per day, for four days.... then went back to a six dose per day schedule and I'm okay again. Keep in mind that the total amount per day was the same, the only change was the amount I took per dose and how many doses per day....

Some of us are just really persnickety and it might take some investigation to find out what your body wants you to do....

Topper () *who's still willing to deal with multi-dosing if it means that I can feel this much better than I did for all those years*

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Marlena writes:

Hi Topper,Yes, I completely understand. This is an obscure testand no one is familiar with it, so it's hard for youto comment!All I can say is that it reflects how I feel more thanthe blood tests did that I took in June when I was on2.5 grains. TSH was 0.011 and frees were both justunder the mid-range (and I still felt terrible). T4didn't look higher (in its own range) than my T3 so Ididn't think I was having a conversion problem, I justthought I needed a higher dosage!I need to find out the explanation of why my doctorsays this particular test measures how much hormonethe body is actually using -- how much the tissues areactually getting affected by, regardless of how muchis available in the blood. Some people can't fully usewhat is available in the blood (for various reasons)-- so for that reason, the free's seem the best out ofall the blood tests but still not always conclusive,IMO!Marlena

August 28, 2005

Hi Topper, I'll answer your questions in text:

--- topper2@... wrote:

> If your frees were both about mid range with those

> other tests, to me

> that is still showing that you don't have enough T3

> in your system and

> that accounts for your hypo symptoms...

I agree. That is why I increased my dosage at that

point ...

> Would you mind running through what you are

> specifically doing to help

> with conversion... supplements, what you avoid,

> lifestyle/eating

> changes...... I'm asking you, instead of listing,

> just to get you to

> think about what you are consciously doing...

Thanks, I appreciate the opportunity to be checked!

I am taking selenium (the good kind) -- 400 mcg for

awhile and now 300mcg (went down because from selenium

test, my level has greatly improved, plus medical

intuitive told me 300mcg now -- since they both agree

....). Also, tons of other supplements -- all good

quality and in the amounts that different authors

suggest for hypo people, plus herbal supplements said

to help conversion, like ashwaganda ... plus adrenal

support, a glandular, herbs, and hydrocortisone, sea

salt ...

Very wholesome (mostly organic) diet and balanced with

plenty of protein with carbs, healthy fats -- eating

every 2-3 hours. Also detox supplements (like

chlorella, and glutathione injections -- from doctor)

to clear out heavy metals and chemicals that can

interfere with the thyroid. Also avoiding foods I seem

to be sensitive to like wheat, dairy, refined sugar.

Avoiding harmful chemicals as much as possible (drink

filtered spring water, use shower filter, fluoride

free toothpaste, never swim in chlorine pools, natural

non-toxic body care products, make-up, and cleaning

supplies). Hmmm, what else am I doing? Trying to

reduce stress as much as possible -- but I am going

through some relationship difficulties which I'm sure

are contributing ... plus I'll be moving in a month

.... but that feels good. I may be forgetting

somethings...

> ...there is a little something that is being missed

> and /or the dose is

> still too low... maybe going over some stuff and

> reviewing might bring

> something to light....

Yes, I appreciate this. I'm starting to think it is

the aldosterone problem. said that all of my

new-since-thyroid-treatment symptoms could be from low

aldosterone (after the ACTH stimulation test,

aldosterone was my only adrenal hormone that went down

instead of up! They are supposed to go up!)... and

since I feel worse than before when my T3 level was

even lower -- it would seem like I would feel even

just a little tiny bit better since my T3 level has

gone up a bit -- but no, I feel worse ... but since my

cortisol levels have shown to be ok -- it has been so

confusing all this time (this was the first time I had

my aldosterone checked). I have to wait 2 weeks to get

the difinitive interpretation about my aldosterone and

adrenals in general ...

> The reason I say that is that I recently, in the

> last two weeks, did

> another trial on myself to reduce the number of

> doses of thyroid that I

> take in a day (without reducing the total taken per

> day) and I still

> can't do it... I was crashing before the next dosing

> time... even falling

> asleep while sitting in a chair and holding my

> mouse.. and get this, I

> was holding down the left mouse button on a close

> icon on the screen and

> held it that way for I have no idea how long, while

> I slept. What woke me

> was the need to go to the bathroom.

>

> I tried that schedule, four doses per day, for four

> days.... then went

> back to a six dose per day schedule and I'm okay

> again. Keep in mind that

> the total amount per day was the same, the only

> change was the amount I

> took per dose and how many doses per day....

Wow, yes, I understand. I have tried the multi-dosing

and didn't feel a difference, but I should probably

try it again ... (although medical intuitive also told

me to take it once/day -- but I'm going to experiment

more -- I have to confirm everything she says of

course -- but so far she seems to be right on for

me)...

> Some of us are just really persnickety and it might

> take some

> investigation to find out what your body wants you

> to do....

Yes, apparently I am in the persnickety category : )

Marlena

> Topper () *who's still willing to deal with

> multi-dosing if it means

> that I can feel this much better than I did for all

> those years*

>

> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Marlena

> writes:

> Hi Topper,

> Yes, I completely understand. This is an obscure

> test

> and no one is familiar with it, so it's hard for you

> to comment!

>

> All I can say is that it reflects how I feel more

> than

> the blood tests did that I took in June when I was

> on

> 2.5 grains. TSH was 0.011 and frees were both just

> under the mid-range (and I still felt terrible). T4

> didn't look higher (in its own range) than my T3 so

> I

> didn't think I was having a conversion problem, I

> just

> thought I needed a higher dosage!

>

> I need to find out the explanation of why my doctor

> says this particular test measures how much hormone

> the body is actually using -- how much the tissues

> are

> actually getting affected by, regardless of how much

> is available in the blood. Some people can't fully

> use

> what is available in the blood (for various reasons)

> -- so for that reason, the free's seem the best out

> of

> all the blood tests but still not always conclusive,

> IMO!

>

> Marlena

____________________________________________________

Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

August 28, 2005

Hi Topper, I'll answer your questions in text:

--- topper2@... wrote:

> If your frees were both about mid range with those

> other tests, to me

> that is still showing that you don't have enough T3

> in your system and

> that accounts for your hypo symptoms...

I agree. That is why I increased my dosage at that

point ...

> Would you mind running through what you are

> specifically doing to help

> with conversion... supplements, what you avoid,

> lifestyle/eating

> changes...... I'm asking you, instead of listing,

> just to get you to

> think about what you are consciously doing...

Thanks, I appreciate the opportunity to be checked!

I am taking selenium (the good kind) -- 400 mcg for

awhile and now 300mcg (went down because from selenium

test, my level has greatly improved, plus medical

intuitive told me 300mcg now -- since they both agree

....). Also, tons of other supplements -- all good

quality and in the amounts that different authors

suggest for hypo people, plus herbal supplements said

to help conversion, like ashwaganda ... plus adrenal

support, a glandular, herbs, and hydrocortisone, sea

salt ...

Very wholesome (mostly organic) diet and balanced with

plenty of protein with carbs, healthy fats -- eating

every 2-3 hours. Also detox supplements (like

chlorella, and glutathione injections -- from doctor)

to clear out heavy metals and chemicals that can

interfere with the thyroid. Also avoiding foods I seem

to be sensitive to like wheat, dairy, refined sugar.

Avoiding harmful chemicals as much as possible (drink

filtered spring water, use shower filter, fluoride

free toothpaste, never swim in chlorine pools, natural

non-toxic body care products, make-up, and cleaning

supplies). Hmmm, what else am I doing? Trying to

reduce stress as much as possible -- but I am going

through some relationship difficulties which I'm sure

are contributing ... plus I'll be moving in a month

.... but that feels good. I may be forgetting

somethings...

> ...there is a little something that is being missed

> and /or the dose is

> still too low... maybe going over some stuff and

> reviewing might bring

> something to light....

Yes, I appreciate this. I'm starting to think it is

the aldosterone problem. said that all of my

new-since-thyroid-treatment symptoms could be from low

aldosterone (after the ACTH stimulation test,

aldosterone was my only adrenal hormone that went down

instead of up! They are supposed to go up!)... and

since I feel worse than before when my T3 level was

even lower -- it would seem like I would feel even

just a little tiny bit better since my T3 level has

gone up a bit -- but no, I feel worse ... but since my

cortisol levels have shown to be ok -- it has been so

confusing all this time (this was the first time I had

my aldosterone checked). I have to wait 2 weeks to get

the difinitive interpretation about my aldosterone and

adrenals in general ...

> The reason I say that is that I recently, in the

> last two weeks, did

> another trial on myself to reduce the number of

> doses of thyroid that I

> take in a day (without reducing the total taken per

> day) and I still

> can't do it... I was crashing before the next dosing

> time... even falling

> asleep while sitting in a chair and holding my

> mouse.. and get this, I

> was holding down the left mouse button on a close

> icon on the screen and

> held it that way for I have no idea how long, while

> I slept. What woke me

> was the need to go to the bathroom.

>

> I tried that schedule, four doses per day, for four

> days.... then went

> back to a six dose per day schedule and I'm okay

> again. Keep in mind that

> the total amount per day was the same, the only

> change was the amount I

> took per dose and how many doses per day....

Wow, yes, I understand. I have tried the multi-dosing

and didn't feel a difference, but I should probably

try it again ... (although medical intuitive also told

me to take it once/day -- but I'm going to experiment

more -- I have to confirm everything she says of

course -- but so far she seems to be right on for

me)...

> Some of us are just really persnickety and it might

> take some

> investigation to find out what your body wants you

> to do....

Yes, apparently I am in the persnickety category : )

Marlena

> Topper () *who's still willing to deal with

> multi-dosing if it means

> that I can feel this much better than I did for all

> those years*

>

> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Marlena

> writes:

> Hi Topper,

> Yes, I completely understand. This is an obscure

> test

> and no one is familiar with it, so it's hard for you

> to comment!

>

> All I can say is that it reflects how I feel more

> than

> the blood tests did that I took in June when I was

> on

> 2.5 grains. TSH was 0.011 and frees were both just

> under the mid-range (and I still felt terrible). T4

> didn't look higher (in its own range) than my T3 so

> I

> didn't think I was having a conversion problem, I

> just

> thought I needed a higher dosage!

>

> I need to find out the explanation of why my doctor

> says this particular test measures how much hormone

> the body is actually using -- how much the tissues

> are

> actually getting affected by, regardless of how much

> is available in the blood. Some people can't fully

> use

> what is available in the blood (for various reasons)

> -- so for that reason, the free's seem the best out

> of

> all the blood tests but still not always conclusive,

> IMO!

>

> Marlena

____________________________________________________

Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

August 28, 2005

Hi Topper, I'll answer your questions in text:

--- topper2@... wrote:

> If your frees were both about mid range with those

> other tests, to me

> that is still showing that you don't have enough T3

> in your system and

> that accounts for your hypo symptoms...

I agree. That is why I increased my dosage at that

point ...

> Would you mind running through what you are

> specifically doing to help

> with conversion... supplements, what you avoid,

> lifestyle/eating

> changes...... I'm asking you, instead of listing,

> just to get you to

> think about what you are consciously doing...

Thanks, I appreciate the opportunity to be checked!

I am taking selenium (the good kind) -- 400 mcg for

awhile and now 300mcg (went down because from selenium

test, my level has greatly improved, plus medical

intuitive told me 300mcg now -- since they both agree

....). Also, tons of other supplements -- all good

quality and in the amounts that different authors

suggest for hypo people, plus herbal supplements said

to help conversion, like ashwaganda ... plus adrenal

support, a glandular, herbs, and hydrocortisone, sea

salt ...

Very wholesome (mostly organic) diet and balanced with

plenty of protein with carbs, healthy fats -- eating

every 2-3 hours. Also detox supplements (like

chlorella, and glutathione injections -- from doctor)

to clear out heavy metals and chemicals that can

interfere with the thyroid. Also avoiding foods I seem

to be sensitive to like wheat, dairy, refined sugar.

Avoiding harmful chemicals as much as possible (drink

filtered spring water, use shower filter, fluoride

free toothpaste, never swim in chlorine pools, natural

non-toxic body care products, make-up, and cleaning

supplies). Hmmm, what else am I doing? Trying to

reduce stress as much as possible -- but I am going

through some relationship difficulties which I'm sure

are contributing ... plus I'll be moving in a month

.... but that feels good. I may be forgetting

somethings...

> ...there is a little something that is being missed

> and /or the dose is

> still too low... maybe going over some stuff and

> reviewing might bring

> something to light....

Yes, I appreciate this. I'm starting to think it is

the aldosterone problem. said that all of my

new-since-thyroid-treatment symptoms could be from low

aldosterone (after the ACTH stimulation test,

aldosterone was my only adrenal hormone that went down

instead of up! They are supposed to go up!)... and

since I feel worse than before when my T3 level was

even lower -- it would seem like I would feel even

just a little tiny bit better since my T3 level has

gone up a bit -- but no, I feel worse ... but since my

cortisol levels have shown to be ok -- it has been so

confusing all this time (this was the first time I had

my aldosterone checked). I have to wait 2 weeks to get

the difinitive interpretation about my aldosterone and

adrenals in general ...

> The reason I say that is that I recently, in the

> last two weeks, did

> another trial on myself to reduce the number of

> doses of thyroid that I

> take in a day (without reducing the total taken per

> day) and I still

> can't do it... I was crashing before the next dosing

> time... even falling

> asleep while sitting in a chair and holding my

> mouse.. and get this, I

> was holding down the left mouse button on a close

> icon on the screen and

> held it that way for I have no idea how long, while

> I slept. What woke me

> was the need to go to the bathroom.

>

> I tried that schedule, four doses per day, for four

> days.... then went

> back to a six dose per day schedule and I'm okay

> again. Keep in mind that

> the total amount per day was the same, the only

> change was the amount I

> took per dose and how many doses per day....

Wow, yes, I understand. I have tried the multi-dosing

and didn't feel a difference, but I should probably

try it again ... (although medical intuitive also told

me to take it once/day -- but I'm going to experiment

more -- I have to confirm everything she says of

course -- but so far she seems to be right on for

me)...

> Some of us are just really persnickety and it might

> take some

> investigation to find out what your body wants you

> to do....

Yes, apparently I am in the persnickety category : )

Marlena

> Topper () *who's still willing to deal with

> multi-dosing if it means

> that I can feel this much better than I did for all

> those years*

>

> On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 09:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Marlena

> writes:

> Hi Topper,

> Yes, I completely understand. This is an obscure

> test

> and no one is familiar with it, so it's hard for you

> to comment!

>

> All I can say is that it reflects how I feel more

> than

> the blood tests did that I took in June when I was

> on

> 2.5 grains. TSH was 0.011 and frees were both just

> under the mid-range (and I still felt terrible). T4

> didn't look higher (in its own range) than my T3 so

> I

> didn't think I was having a conversion problem, I

> just

> thought I needed a higher dosage!

>

> I need to find out the explanation of why my doctor

> says this particular test measures how much hormone

> the body is actually using -- how much the tissues

> are

> actually getting affected by, regardless of how much

> is available in the blood. Some people can't fully

> use

> what is available in the blood (for various reasons)

> -- so for that reason, the free's seem the best out

> of

> all the blood tests but still not always conclusive,

> IMO!

>

> Marlena

____________________________________________________

Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

August 28, 2005

Marlena.... Are you charting and journaling so that you have something concrete to go back to to see how your body is responding to changes?

A lot of this stuff takes weeks for the body to exhibit a change after adjusting something so its easy to forget stuff that you've changed and when.

Still trying to bring up the minor stuff.... you seem to have most of the major covered....

Someone in another group says that zinc plays a significant role in conversion. I've not read that myself... but I thought that I'd bring it up in case someone else has and to see what your intake is.

You're taking quite a few things that I'm not familiar with..... Many herbs have a significant affect on our body's, chemistry.... I know that you are taking quite a few, consider those that you've added since beginning thyroid treatment. Do any pop to mind as being added and the hypo symptoms increased? I'm wondering if a particular one, or combination of two or more, may have something to do with how your body uses and/or converts thyroid hormone.... follow my thought? That's where charting and journaling come in... to look back at a change that you've made and see if you can spot a possible cause and effect for a symptom change. It can get really complicated, I remember some pretty nasty puzzles that I've worked with to find things that affected me.... some hit me within only a few minutes, some take much longer...

You've got a bunch of heads working on this... something's gonna get figured out here by gummy!!! heheheh

Topper ()

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Marlena writes:

Hi Topper, I'll answer your questions in text:--- topper2@... wrote:> If your frees were both about mid range with those> other tests, to me> that is still showing that you don't have enough T3> in your system and> that accounts for your hypo symptoms...I agree. That is why I increased my dosage at thatpoint ...

< snip >

August 28, 2005

Marlena.... Are you charting and journaling so that you have something concrete to go back to to see how your body is responding to changes?

A lot of this stuff takes weeks for the body to exhibit a change after adjusting something so its easy to forget stuff that you've changed and when.

Still trying to bring up the minor stuff.... you seem to have most of the major covered....

Someone in another group says that zinc plays a significant role in conversion. I've not read that myself... but I thought that I'd bring it up in case someone else has and to see what your intake is.

You're taking quite a few things that I'm not familiar with..... Many herbs have a significant affect on our body's, chemistry.... I know that you are taking quite a few, consider those that you've added since beginning thyroid treatment. Do any pop to mind as being added and the hypo symptoms increased? I'm wondering if a particular one, or combination of two or more, may have something to do with how your body uses and/or converts thyroid hormone.... follow my thought? That's where charting and journaling come in... to look back at a change that you've made and see if you can spot a possible cause and effect for a symptom change. It can get really complicated, I remember some pretty nasty puzzles that I've worked with to find things that affected me.... some hit me within only a few minutes, some take much longer...

You've got a bunch of heads working on this... something's gonna get figured out here by gummy!!! heheheh

Topper ()

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Marlena writes:

Hi Topper, I'll answer your questions in text:--- topper2@... wrote:> If your frees were both about mid range with those> other tests, to me> that is still showing that you don't have enough T3> in your system and> that accounts for your hypo symptoms...I agree. That is why I increased my dosage at thatpoint ...

< snip >

August 28, 2005

Marlena.... Are you charting and journaling so that you have something concrete to go back to to see how your body is responding to changes?

A lot of this stuff takes weeks for the body to exhibit a change after adjusting something so its easy to forget stuff that you've changed and when.

Still trying to bring up the minor stuff.... you seem to have most of the major covered....

Someone in another group says that zinc plays a significant role in conversion. I've not read that myself... but I thought that I'd bring it up in case someone else has and to see what your intake is.

You're taking quite a few things that I'm not familiar with..... Many herbs have a significant affect on our body's, chemistry.... I know that you are taking quite a few, consider those that you've added since beginning thyroid treatment. Do any pop to mind as being added and the hypo symptoms increased? I'm wondering if a particular one, or combination of two or more, may have something to do with how your body uses and/or converts thyroid hormone.... follow my thought? That's where charting and journaling come in... to look back at a change that you've made and see if you can spot a possible cause and effect for a symptom change. It can get really complicated, I remember some pretty nasty puzzles that I've worked with to find things that affected me.... some hit me within only a few minutes, some take much longer...

You've got a bunch of heads working on this... something's gonna get figured out here by gummy!!! heheheh

Topper ()

On Sun, 28 Aug 2005 11:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Marlena writes:

Hi Topper, I'll answer your questions in text:--- topper2@... wrote:> If your frees were both about mid range with those> other tests, to me> that is still showing that you don't have enough T3> in your system and> that accounts for your hypo symptoms...I agree. That is why I increased my dosage at thatpoint ...

< snip >

August 28, 2005

Marlena:

Yes...I probably should have qualified... If you take high enough dose of time release t3...I would think you would get it into the receptors and maybe a smoother ride. Makes sense.

So you got to tell me more about this medical intuitive!!! I'm just dying to hear more!! Was it fun? Did you find out anything else interesting?

~E:)

Marlena wrote:

Hi E,I know, I have studied Dr Lowe's website, book, andhave had several phone consultations with him! I wasagainst even trying timed release T3 but when I feltworse after the plain T3 I thought I would give it atry because my doctor wanted me to. I didn't feelworse on it until I got up to 27 mcg ... then I spoketo a medical intuitive who told me that my bodyprefers the timed release kind -- so since this confirmed my ownobservations, I'm going with it for now. It could besimply because the plain is exhausting my aldosteronelevels more or something. I have to wait for over 2weeks to find out about this from my doctor (I'm sofrustrated I have to wait more!) ... Marlena--- E Gillespie wrote:> > Marlena:> > Dr. Lowe says It is TRUE

that sustained release t3> doesn't not get into the receptors the way the t3 in> a Cytomel or Armour would. If you took a Cytomel> pill and it was too much all at once...you would> have a bad reaction. If you took one in small dose> and worked your way into a higher dose you would> have lot less reaction and better feeling. I would> think this would be even more true if you were also> taking Armour. > > I too tried time release t3 and it was like I wasn't> taking anything. I was on straight t4 with it and> the t4 stuck out in the labs the way yours does> now...plus I was taking some other meds that were> interfering. > > Not an easy thing to track down...stupid docs never> did a thing to educate me. > > > ~E:)> > > > Marlena wrote:Hi

Kats,> Thanks for your reply ... I'll answer your questions> in text ...> > --- kats3boys wrote:> > > > > > Ok y'all, so I finally got my most recent> thyroid> > > results in but I'm not sure where to go from> here.> > My> > > doctor is pretty holistic and uses a more obsure> > test> > > from a lab called Vitamin Diagnostics. It is a> 24> > hr> > > urine collection. Supposedly it tests the amount> > of> > > hormone your body is actually using ... anyway> > here> > > are my results:> > > > > > 11/2004 (before treatment):> > > T3 621 range 800-1800> > > T4 1698 range

1800-3000> > > > > > 7/05 (since treatment ... it takes a month to> get> > the> > > results!)> > > T3 894 range 800-1800> > > T4 3124 range 1800-3000> > > > > I agree that you are not converting well..you need> > T3 but you also > > need your body to be able to use the T3..one idea> is> > to not use SR T3 > > and multidose during the day so your body gets a> > more even dose > > during the day until your body is able to tolerate> > larger amounts of > > T3.> > > So you think that plain T3 multi-dosed would give a> more even supply of T3 than sustained release T3> (which is made in order to give a more even supply)?> > > Another idea is as to why you are not converting?> > Adrenal support is > > good but some times it can

through the balance> > off..if you support > > one it lowers the others..> > Yes, this is true ... but adrenals support was> definitely necessary from tests I took before doing> adrenal support -- they showed it was necessary! I'm> now wondering if the hydrocortisone I am taking is> helping my cortisol producing layer of my adrenals> but> the aldosterone producing layer may not be getting> enough support (my aldosterone went down instead of> up after the stimulation)...> > > > > Few questions..how many times a day do you take> your> > Armour and T3 > > and do you do it sublingually?, empty stomach?> > I have experimented with multi-dosing but it didn't> seem to help me. So I take it once daily,> sublingually, and on an empty stomach -- just in> case!> The SR T3 only needs to be taken once a day

--> because> small amounts of it get released over the course of> the day ... I also experimented with taking plain T3> and it seemed to make me feel worse -- perhaps it> was> too strong for my adrenals to handle -- don't> know???> > > How old are you? Are you menopausal or> > perimenopausal?> > > I'm only 29 : (> > > Other than the ACTH test have you had other> hormone> > tests done?> > I've had a 4x/day saliva test for my cortisol/DHEA> levels several times ... the 2 thyroid antibody> tests> results (when on 1.5 grains) were both negative> (<2)--> I should have had them tested before treatment but I> didn't know I was supposed to! When on 2.5 grains,> TSH: 0.011, Free T4: 1.1 range 0.8-1.8, Free T3: 3.1> range 2.3-4.2> > > I believe as a general rule you

want to have your> T4> > in the upper 2/3 > > range so..near 2600.. and your T3 closer to the> > upper end of the > > range so 1600? These of course vary with how you> > feel?> > > > Does this test tell circulating T4 in the system> or> > just free's?> > This test is very different from any of the blood> tests, I think. I believe the free's test how much> is> available in the blood to be used ... and this test> shows how much was actually used -- so if someone is> thyroid hormone resistant or for whatever reason the> tissues are unable to use all the hormone available> in> the blood, this will show that. > > > I think Armour is 38 mcg of T4 and 9 mcg of T3 so> at> > 3 1/2 grains of > > Armour you are only taking 133 mcg of T4 and your> T4> > number seems

> > really high for such a low dose of T4..> > Actually I was only on 3 1/4 grains for that test,> but> yes, I agree with you that my T4 seems inordinantly> high. I'm thinking that for whatever reason (perhaps> the aldosterone problem), my body can not tolerate> an> increased metabolism (that would result from an> increased T3 level) because that would speed up the> rate at which the aldosterone (for instance) is> cleared and if my body can't produce adequate> amounts> to keep up, than I will suffer more, so my body is> adjusting by keeping the T4 unconverted -- hence it> is> building up ... but I really have no idea, just a> theory!> > > I think high> > levels of > > estrogen in your body can cause the T4 to be bound> > and would explain > > the loss of conversion..> > >

> That's interesting. I have never been tested but I> do> use natural progesterone cream for the 2nd half of> my> cycle to deal with PMS etc.> > > Some others probabley have more ideas but I am> > thinking either > > testing for hormone resistance in which case you> may> > need to switch > > dominantly to T3..> > How do you test for T3 resistance (other than the> test> I took)? I have thought about taking only T3 but I> need to make sure my adrenals and whatever else can> handle it -- I will definitely be looking into this> though --thanks!> > > Sellium helps with conversion.. > > I am taking Selenium -- 400mcg for several months> and> now 300 ... the thyroid test I took measures> selenium> as well, and before I started supplementing (and> before thyroid treatment) my

level was 5, range> 15-160! With this last test it was thankfully up to> 92!> > > Glucose, sodium and> > a few others > > effect conversion as well as liver disease. And> > should be tested.> > I had my fasting glucose tested and it was 82, range> 60-99 -- so that seemed good. I also have a blood> glucose monitor at home that I take myself from time> to time and it always seems fine ...> > Sodium is on the low side but normal, 138, range> 136-146. This probably reflects the aldosterone> issue.> Aldosterone's job is to keep sodium in the body ...> although potassium was even lower, 3.6, range> 3.6-5.2> -- so I'm not sure how that relates. I'm> supplementing> with both ...> > > Estrogen levels effect hormone levels adversely ,> > not sure about > > progesterone and androgen but I

would get these> > levels checked..> > That's a good idea.> > > Kats3boys> > ( I am tired and just got off work so if I made an> > oops I am sorry, > > dyed my hair blond so I would have an excuse..) > > No problem. I really appreciate you taking the time> to> think this over and ask me questions -- anything you> have to add is very welcomed!> > Marlena> > > > > > __________________________________ > Yahoo! Mail > Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the> tour: > http://tour.mail.yahoo.com/mailtour.html > > > >

August 28, 2005