Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 , You set forth the problems very well. The college programs have been beset by problems caused by know-nothing administrators and clueless bean counters. College is a BUSINESS. Forget any notions of lofty educational ideals. And EMS programs are not money makers as a general rule. I have some comments below. Gene > > > Are the problems we see in EMS education an education problem or a > problem with what employers expect from a person leaving one of our > training faculties? > Yes, of course. Doctors are not expected to be able to practice like a veteran at the end of medical school. There are internships and residencies. Again. EMS is a BUSINESS. Whether it's carried on by private providers or public, business concepts drive it, not healthcare concepts. When Jane and I and were at Tyler Junior College, our program was structured to make students street ready. We did this through extensive clinical and internship training, beginning almost immediately after the beginning of the course. We had many battles with those who thought that students should only go on internships after the course and clinicals are complete. They're quite wrong. There is much about being a medic that has little or nothing to do with medical skills. Learning the business aspects, how to check out the ambulance, where things are kept, what the supplies are, call response policies, radio procedures----and a zillion other factors can be learned before a student is ever ready to touch a patient. Starting internships early gives the student time to see how calls go, and gradually to learn how to assist in very important ways such as going and getting things, listening and watching before being put into a position to have to perform under pressure. Getting to see how to get stretchers in and out of tight places, tricks of moving and lifting that are never covered in class, how to talk to patients. All these things are important. And too many courses do not afford the student time to learn these things prior to actual patient care beginning. > In very few education settings do we expect > those who are completing their formal education to be fully > functional in there profession? By example when my son finishes his > degree in business I do not expect him to be hired as the chief > executive officer for a fortune 500 company, nor does the company > hiring him expect the same, what they want is someone who understands > the general concepts of the job and that is will to learn from a more > seasoned person within there company. For many years within this > country we had an on the job training process through internships or > apprenticeship for many technical professions and we choose to leave > them behind for a more formal training such as college or prep > schools. Many EMS employers want these new medics to be able to fill > a spot in there rotation with out additional experience. > I ask these questions because of the dialog on this list of the last > few days has had a lot of discussion on EMS education and the > pitfalls of the education process. I for one do agree that there are > many ways to improve the education process and improve EMS through > education. I am all for the meetings that have been discussed here on > this list. And look for ways to improve this program and myself as an > instructor. As an EMS educator with approximately 7 years experience > teaching and the last 5 of those as an assistant program director at > a Community College, I too am becoming fully frustrated by many thing > that have been discussed that affect our ability to educate our > students. Some of the most frustrating are students that arrive in > our classes with NO study habits, students that can not read a text > that is written at a 9th grade level, students that within the local > public schools that have been allowed to retake exams multiple times > until they pass, students whose mothers call because I must be > picking on her child and he really should be given more attempts to > complete projects and such. > There's no question in my mind that students are less prepared today than they were 15 years ago. My first class at TJC, in 1989 was made up of people of the average age of 27. They were well motivated, could read, write, and spell, and had learned good work habits through several years in the workforce. We discouraged 18 year olds from coming to the program. Enter greedy administrators. You WILL enroll as many as possible. Damn the entry requirements. You WILL graduate them. Then, as you say, the administrators lambast you because your students cannot pass the national exams. This bullshit about testing students and passing exams that the politicians have imposed upon our public schools has led to a situation where students are taught nothing except how to pass a specific exam. No wonder they cannot think critically. High schools are doing a criminal job of education, but parents and a generation of students who are lazy, spoiled, and arrogant are also a part of the problem. I have actually had the mother of a student, a college student, argue with me because little Suzy was failing. Little Suzy couldn't spell, read, or write, was lazy, had no sense of responsibility, didn't understand anything about deadlines, couldn't understand why cheating wasn't allowed, and so forth. > I am frustrated by administrators at my > school that think I should pass a certain percentage on students that > start a class and then are upset that the student has trouble passing > a National Certification Exam. I think you get the idea that we can > find many things to be frustrated about. But what amazes me the most > that many employers expect that they should be able to hire a fresh > graduate and use them as though they have years of experience in all > aspects of emergency care a new grad should never have trouble > intubating a patient, never have trouble starting IV's if they do it > has to be a education problem. > I know that many students I have will have trouble with written exams > and those exams tell me very little about how they will perform in an > actual emergency, I many times wished that there were a way to > certify a individual that included more than a multi-guess exam. Yes > we test skills but under very sterile conditions. What I really want > to know is how did the person perform under the distress of an > emergency. > A big part of the education summit will be examining ways to do just that. It involves extensive scenario practice with lots of stressful situations built in, allowing the students to critique themselves and structure their own improvement strategies, use of problem based learning, group learning, team learning and practice, and so forth. That's what this summit will be about. GG > I guess what I am trying to say is that there are bad students, bad > instructors, bad programs and bad employers. NO I am not saying > everyone or every program must be completely redone. What I suggest > is that we try to look at all aspects of the problem and not just > focus on a small part and hope it will repair all the problems within > EMS Education at one time. > Sorry that I ran this so long but today has been one of those > wonderful days at the college and I had much to vent about. I am sure > that some on this list will disagree with the above statements, and > if you do and reply I will listen to your thoughts as well on this > subject, because that is where we learn many things is listening to > each other. > Thank you for reading my rants of the day and any comments that you > might have. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 , You set forth the problems very well. The college programs have been beset by problems caused by know-nothing administrators and clueless bean counters. College is a BUSINESS. Forget any notions of lofty educational ideals. And EMS programs are not money makers as a general rule. I have some comments below. Gene > > > Are the problems we see in EMS education an education problem or a > problem with what employers expect from a person leaving one of our > training faculties? > Yes, of course. Doctors are not expected to be able to practice like a veteran at the end of medical school. There are internships and residencies. Again. EMS is a BUSINESS. Whether it's carried on by private providers or public, business concepts drive it, not healthcare concepts. When Jane and I and were at Tyler Junior College, our program was structured to make students street ready. We did this through extensive clinical and internship training, beginning almost immediately after the beginning of the course. We had many battles with those who thought that students should only go on internships after the course and clinicals are complete. They're quite wrong. There is much about being a medic that has little or nothing to do with medical skills. Learning the business aspects, how to check out the ambulance, where things are kept, what the supplies are, call response policies, radio procedures----and a zillion other factors can be learned before a student is ever ready to touch a patient. Starting internships early gives the student time to see how calls go, and gradually to learn how to assist in very important ways such as going and getting things, listening and watching before being put into a position to have to perform under pressure. Getting to see how to get stretchers in and out of tight places, tricks of moving and lifting that are never covered in class, how to talk to patients. All these things are important. And too many courses do not afford the student time to learn these things prior to actual patient care beginning. > In very few education settings do we expect > those who are completing their formal education to be fully > functional in there profession? By example when my son finishes his > degree in business I do not expect him to be hired as the chief > executive officer for a fortune 500 company, nor does the company > hiring him expect the same, what they want is someone who understands > the general concepts of the job and that is will to learn from a more > seasoned person within there company. For many years within this > country we had an on the job training process through internships or > apprenticeship for many technical professions and we choose to leave > them behind for a more formal training such as college or prep > schools. Many EMS employers want these new medics to be able to fill > a spot in there rotation with out additional experience. > I ask these questions because of the dialog on this list of the last > few days has had a lot of discussion on EMS education and the > pitfalls of the education process. I for one do agree that there are > many ways to improve the education process and improve EMS through > education. I am all for the meetings that have been discussed here on > this list. And look for ways to improve this program and myself as an > instructor. As an EMS educator with approximately 7 years experience > teaching and the last 5 of those as an assistant program director at > a Community College, I too am becoming fully frustrated by many thing > that have been discussed that affect our ability to educate our > students. Some of the most frustrating are students that arrive in > our classes with NO study habits, students that can not read a text > that is written at a 9th grade level, students that within the local > public schools that have been allowed to retake exams multiple times > until they pass, students whose mothers call because I must be > picking on her child and he really should be given more attempts to > complete projects and such. > There's no question in my mind that students are less prepared today than they were 15 years ago. My first class at TJC, in 1989 was made up of people of the average age of 27. They were well motivated, could read, write, and spell, and had learned good work habits through several years in the workforce. We discouraged 18 year olds from coming to the program. Enter greedy administrators. You WILL enroll as many as possible. Damn the entry requirements. You WILL graduate them. Then, as you say, the administrators lambast you because your students cannot pass the national exams. This bullshit about testing students and passing exams that the politicians have imposed upon our public schools has led to a situation where students are taught nothing except how to pass a specific exam. No wonder they cannot think critically. High schools are doing a criminal job of education, but parents and a generation of students who are lazy, spoiled, and arrogant are also a part of the problem. I have actually had the mother of a student, a college student, argue with me because little Suzy was failing. Little Suzy couldn't spell, read, or write, was lazy, had no sense of responsibility, didn't understand anything about deadlines, couldn't understand why cheating wasn't allowed, and so forth. > I am frustrated by administrators at my > school that think I should pass a certain percentage on students that > start a class and then are upset that the student has trouble passing > a National Certification Exam. I think you get the idea that we can > find many things to be frustrated about. But what amazes me the most > that many employers expect that they should be able to hire a fresh > graduate and use them as though they have years of experience in all > aspects of emergency care a new grad should never have trouble > intubating a patient, never have trouble starting IV's if they do it > has to be a education problem. > I know that many students I have will have trouble with written exams > and those exams tell me very little about how they will perform in an > actual emergency, I many times wished that there were a way to > certify a individual that included more than a multi-guess exam. Yes > we test skills but under very sterile conditions. What I really want > to know is how did the person perform under the distress of an > emergency. > A big part of the education summit will be examining ways to do just that. It involves extensive scenario practice with lots of stressful situations built in, allowing the students to critique themselves and structure their own improvement strategies, use of problem based learning, group learning, team learning and practice, and so forth. That's what this summit will be about. GG > I guess what I am trying to say is that there are bad students, bad > instructors, bad programs and bad employers. NO I am not saying > everyone or every program must be completely redone. What I suggest > is that we try to look at all aspects of the problem and not just > focus on a small part and hope it will repair all the problems within > EMS Education at one time. > Sorry that I ran this so long but today has been one of those > wonderful days at the college and I had much to vent about. I am sure > that some on this list will disagree with the above statements, and > if you do and reply I will listen to your thoughts as well on this > subject, because that is where we learn many things is listening to > each other. > Thank you for reading my rants of the day and any comments that you > might have. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 In a message dated 11/3/2004 8:26:24 PM Central Standard Time, bbledsoe@... writes: The problem is sometimes deeper when the only two criteria an employer looks for in a paramedic is the presence of a patch and a pulse. Thank you, I know that you have been listening to this quote of mine for years. I find it so much easier to train a newly graduated Paramedic in a program designed for my service and knowing that when I let him/her out of that 9 month program, he/she is finally ready to stand on their own two feet, and only then, do they get to work alone. Unfortunately, the problem becomes much more complicated when I send a seasoned paramedic into the same program and have to DE-program him/her from that company that hired him because he had a patch and a pulse. Andy Foote BEMS Manager Lamar University-Orange Faculty Member Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 In a message dated 11/3/2004 8:26:24 PM Central Standard Time, bbledsoe@... writes: The problem is sometimes deeper when the only two criteria an employer looks for in a paramedic is the presence of a patch and a pulse. Thank you, I know that you have been listening to this quote of mine for years. I find it so much easier to train a newly graduated Paramedic in a program designed for my service and knowing that when I let him/her out of that 9 month program, he/she is finally ready to stand on their own two feet, and only then, do they get to work alone. Unfortunately, the problem becomes much more complicated when I send a seasoned paramedic into the same program and have to DE-program him/her from that company that hired him because he had a patch and a pulse. Andy Foote BEMS Manager Lamar University-Orange Faculty Member Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 I think, in terms of medical skills and knowledge, the paramedic (and EMT) should leave the class prepared to practice. In terms of local system issues, then these can be learned in the field. In the introduction to the USDOT Paramedic Curriculum it says, " The EMT-Paramedic: National Standard Curriculum represents the minimum required information to be presented within a course leading to certification as a Paramedic. It is recognized that there is additional specific education that will be required of Paramedics who operate in the field, i.e. ambulance driving, heavy and light rescue, basic extrication, special needs, and so on. It is also recognized that this information might differ from locality to locality, and that each training program or system should identify and provide special instruction for these training requirements. This curriculum is intended to prepare a medically competent Paramedic to operate in the field. Enrichment programs and continuing education will help fulfill other specific needs for the Paramedic's education. " Besides, once the student has graduated all " student protections " are lost (including institutional liability insurance) and the student is expecetd to function at the same level of care as a graduate paramed (or EMT). The problem is sometimes deeper when the only two criteria an employer looks for in a paramedic is the presence of a patch and a pulse. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX Rantings of an EMS educator Are the problems we see in EMS education an education problem or a problem with what employers expect from a person leaving one of our training faculties? In very few education settings do we expect those who are completing their formal education to be fully functional in there profession? By example when my son finishes his degree in business I do not expect him to be hired as the chief executive officer for a fortune 500 company, nor does the company hiring him expect the same, what they want is someone who understands the general concepts of the job and that is will to learn from a more seasoned person within there company. For many years within this country we had an on the job training process through internships or apprenticeship for many technical professions and we choose to leave them behind for a more formal training such as college or prep schools. Many EMS employers want these new medics to be able to fill a spot in there rotation with out additional experience. I ask these questions because of the dialog on this list of the last few days has had a lot of discussion on EMS education and the pitfalls of the education process. I for one do agree that there are many ways to improve the education process and improve EMS through education. I am all for the meetings that have been discussed here on this list. And look for ways to improve this program and myself as an instructor. As an EMS educator with approximately 7 years experience teaching and the last 5 of those as an assistant program director at a Community College, I too am becoming fully frustrated by many thing that have been discussed that affect our ability to educate our students. Some of the most frustrating are students that arrive in our classes with NO study habits, students that can not read a text that is written at a 9th grade level, students that within the local public schools that have been allowed to retake exams multiple times until they pass, students whose mothers call because I must be picking on her child and he really should be given more attempts to complete projects and such. I am frustrated by administrators at my school that think I should pass a certain percentage on students that start a class and then are upset that the student has trouble passing a National Certification Exam. I think you get the idea that we can find many things to be frustrated about. But what amazes me the most that many employers expect that they should be able to hire a fresh graduate and use them as though they have years of experience in all aspects of emergency care a new grad should never have trouble intubating a patient, never have trouble starting IV's if they do it has to be a education problem. I know that many students I have will have trouble with written exams and those exams tell me very little about how they will perform in an actual emergency, I many times wished that there were a way to certify a individual that included more than a multi-guess exam. Yes we test skills but under very sterile conditions. What I really want to know is how did the person perform under the distress of an emergency. I guess what I am trying to say is that there are bad students, bad instructors, bad programs and bad employers. NO I am not saying everyone or every program must be completely redone. What I suggest is that we try to look at all aspects of the problem and not just focus on a small part and hope it will repair all the problems within EMS Education at one time. Sorry that I ran this so long but today has been one of those wonderful days at the college and I had much to vent about. I am sure that some on this list will disagree with the above statements, and if you do and reply I will listen to your thoughts as well on this subject, because that is where we learn many things is listening to each other. Thank you for reading my rants of the day and any comments that you might have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Amen, brother, I FEEEEEELLLLLL your pain!!! Jane -------------- Original message from " vmmedic " : -------------- Are the problems we see in EMS education an education problem or a problem with what employers expect from a person leaving one of our training faculties? In very few education settings do we expect those who are completing their formal education to be fully functional in there profession? By example when my son finishes his degree in business I do not expect him to be hired as the chief executive officer for a fortune 500 company, nor does the company hiring him expect the same, what they want is someone who understands the general concepts of the job and that is will to learn from a more seasoned person within there company. For many years within this country we had an on the job training process through internships or apprenticeship for many technical professions and we choose to leave them behind for a more formal training such as college or prep schools. Many EMS employers want these new medics to be able to fill a spot in there rotation with out additional experience. I ask these questions because of the dialog on this list of the last few days has had a lot of discussion on EMS education and the pitfalls of the education process. I for one do agree that there are many ways to improve the education process and improve EMS through education. I am all for the meetings that have been discussed here on this list. And look for ways to improve this program and myself as an instructor. As an EMS educator with approximately 7 years experience teaching and the last 5 of those as an assistant program director at a Community College, I too am becoming fully frustrated by many thing that have been discussed that affect our ability to educate our students. Some of the most frustrating are students that arrive in our classes with NO study habits, students that can not read a text that is written at a 9th grade level, students that within the local public schools that have been allowed to retake exams multiple times until they pass, students whose mothers call because I must be picking on her child and he really should be given more attempts to complete projects and such. I am frustrated by administrators at my school that think I should pass a certain percentage on students that start a class and then are upset that the student has trouble passing a National Certification Exam. I think you get the idea that we can find many things to be frustrated about. But what amazes me the most that many employers expect that they should be able to hire a fresh graduate and use them as though they have years of experience in all aspects of emergency care a new grad should never have trouble intubating a patient, never have trouble starting IV's if they do it has to be a education problem. I know that many students I have will have trouble with written exams and those exams tell me very little about how they will perform in an actual emergency, I many times wished that there were a way to certify a individual that included more than a multi-guess exam. Yes we test skills but under very sterile conditions. What I really want to know is how did the person perform under the distress of an emergency. I guess what I am trying to say is that there are bad students, bad instructors, bad programs and bad employers. NO I am not saying everyone or every program must be completely redone. What I suggest is that we try to look at all aspects of the problem and not just focus on a small part and hope it will repair all the problems within EMS Education at one time. Sorry that I ran this so long but today has been one of those wonderful days at the college and I had much to vent about. I am sure that some on this list will disagree with the above statements, and if you do and reply I will listen to your thoughts as well on this subject, because that is where we learn many things is listening to each other. Thank you for reading my rants of the day and any comments that you might have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Amen, brother, I FEEEEEELLLLLL your pain!!! Jane -------------- Original message from " vmmedic " : -------------- Are the problems we see in EMS education an education problem or a problem with what employers expect from a person leaving one of our training faculties? In very few education settings do we expect those who are completing their formal education to be fully functional in there profession? By example when my son finishes his degree in business I do not expect him to be hired as the chief executive officer for a fortune 500 company, nor does the company hiring him expect the same, what they want is someone who understands the general concepts of the job and that is will to learn from a more seasoned person within there company. For many years within this country we had an on the job training process through internships or apprenticeship for many technical professions and we choose to leave them behind for a more formal training such as college or prep schools. Many EMS employers want these new medics to be able to fill a spot in there rotation with out additional experience. I ask these questions because of the dialog on this list of the last few days has had a lot of discussion on EMS education and the pitfalls of the education process. I for one do agree that there are many ways to improve the education process and improve EMS through education. I am all for the meetings that have been discussed here on this list. And look for ways to improve this program and myself as an instructor. As an EMS educator with approximately 7 years experience teaching and the last 5 of those as an assistant program director at a Community College, I too am becoming fully frustrated by many thing that have been discussed that affect our ability to educate our students. Some of the most frustrating are students that arrive in our classes with NO study habits, students that can not read a text that is written at a 9th grade level, students that within the local public schools that have been allowed to retake exams multiple times until they pass, students whose mothers call because I must be picking on her child and he really should be given more attempts to complete projects and such. I am frustrated by administrators at my school that think I should pass a certain percentage on students that start a class and then are upset that the student has trouble passing a National Certification Exam. I think you get the idea that we can find many things to be frustrated about. But what amazes me the most that many employers expect that they should be able to hire a fresh graduate and use them as though they have years of experience in all aspects of emergency care a new grad should never have trouble intubating a patient, never have trouble starting IV's if they do it has to be a education problem. I know that many students I have will have trouble with written exams and those exams tell me very little about how they will perform in an actual emergency, I many times wished that there were a way to certify a individual that included more than a multi-guess exam. Yes we test skills but under very sterile conditions. What I really want to know is how did the person perform under the distress of an emergency. I guess what I am trying to say is that there are bad students, bad instructors, bad programs and bad employers. NO I am not saying everyone or every program must be completely redone. What I suggest is that we try to look at all aspects of the problem and not just focus on a small part and hope it will repair all the problems within EMS Education at one time. Sorry that I ran this so long but today has been one of those wonderful days at the college and I had much to vent about. I am sure that some on this list will disagree with the above statements, and if you do and reply I will listen to your thoughts as well on this subject, because that is where we learn many things is listening to each other. Thank you for reading my rants of the day and any comments that you might have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 Amen, brother, I FEEEEEELLLLLL your pain!!! Jane -------------- Original message from " vmmedic " : -------------- Are the problems we see in EMS education an education problem or a problem with what employers expect from a person leaving one of our training faculties? In very few education settings do we expect those who are completing their formal education to be fully functional in there profession? By example when my son finishes his degree in business I do not expect him to be hired as the chief executive officer for a fortune 500 company, nor does the company hiring him expect the same, what they want is someone who understands the general concepts of the job and that is will to learn from a more seasoned person within there company. For many years within this country we had an on the job training process through internships or apprenticeship for many technical professions and we choose to leave them behind for a more formal training such as college or prep schools. Many EMS employers want these new medics to be able to fill a spot in there rotation with out additional experience. I ask these questions because of the dialog on this list of the last few days has had a lot of discussion on EMS education and the pitfalls of the education process. I for one do agree that there are many ways to improve the education process and improve EMS through education. I am all for the meetings that have been discussed here on this list. And look for ways to improve this program and myself as an instructor. As an EMS educator with approximately 7 years experience teaching and the last 5 of those as an assistant program director at a Community College, I too am becoming fully frustrated by many thing that have been discussed that affect our ability to educate our students. Some of the most frustrating are students that arrive in our classes with NO study habits, students that can not read a text that is written at a 9th grade level, students that within the local public schools that have been allowed to retake exams multiple times until they pass, students whose mothers call because I must be picking on her child and he really should be given more attempts to complete projects and such. I am frustrated by administrators at my school that think I should pass a certain percentage on students that start a class and then are upset that the student has trouble passing a National Certification Exam. I think you get the idea that we can find many things to be frustrated about. But what amazes me the most that many employers expect that they should be able to hire a fresh graduate and use them as though they have years of experience in all aspects of emergency care a new grad should never have trouble intubating a patient, never have trouble starting IV's if they do it has to be a education problem. I know that many students I have will have trouble with written exams and those exams tell me very little about how they will perform in an actual emergency, I many times wished that there were a way to certify a individual that included more than a multi-guess exam. Yes we test skills but under very sterile conditions. What I really want to know is how did the person perform under the distress of an emergency. I guess what I am trying to say is that there are bad students, bad instructors, bad programs and bad employers. NO I am not saying everyone or every program must be completely redone. What I suggest is that we try to look at all aspects of the problem and not just focus on a small part and hope it will repair all the problems within EMS Education at one time. Sorry that I ran this so long but today has been one of those wonderful days at the college and I had much to vent about. I am sure that some on this list will disagree with the above statements, and if you do and reply I will listen to your thoughts as well on this subject, because that is where we learn many things is listening to each other. Thank you for reading my rants of the day and any comments that you might have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 The pulse and a patch hiring practice is what got us to the lack of professionalism that we here so much about here on this forum. But much of that is then pushed back on to education. Damn viscous cycle that is destroying the profession that I love. > I think, in terms of medical skills and knowledge, the paramedic (and EMT) > should leave the class prepared to practice. In terms of local system > issues, then these can be learned in the field. In the introduction to the > USDOT Paramedic Curriculum it says, " The EMT-Paramedic: National Standard > Curriculum represents the minimum required information to be presented > within a course leading to certification as a Paramedic. It is recognized > that there is additional specific education that will be required of > Paramedics who operate in the field, i.e. ambulance driving, heavy and light > rescue, basic extrication, special needs, and so on. It is also recognized > that this information might differ from locality to locality, and that each > training program or system should identify and provide special instruction > for these training requirements. This curriculum is intended to prepare a > medically competent Paramedic to operate in the field. Enrichment programs > and continuing education will help fulfill other specific needs for the > Paramedic's education. " Besides, once the student has graduated all " student > protections " are lost (including institutional liability insurance) and the > student is expecetd to function at the same level of care as a graduate > paramed (or EMT). The problem is sometimes deeper when the only two criteria > an employer looks for in a paramedic is the presence of a patch and a pulse. > > BEB > > > E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP > Midlothian, TX > > Rantings of an EMS educator > > > > Are the problems we see in EMS education an education problem or a problem > with what employers expect from a person leaving one of our training > faculties? In very few education settings do we expect those who are > completing their formal education to be fully functional in there > profession? By example when my son finishes his degree in business I do not > expect him to be hired as the chief executive officer for a fortune 500 > company, nor does the company hiring him expect the same, what they want is > someone who understands the general concepts of the job and that is will to > learn from a more seasoned person within there company. For many years > within this country we had an on the job training process through > internships or apprenticeship for many technical professions and we choose > to leave them behind for a more formal training such as college or prep > schools. Many EMS employers want these new medics to be able to fill a spot > in there rotation with out additional experience. > I ask these questions because of the dialog on this list of the last few > days has had a lot of discussion on EMS education and the pitfalls of the > education process. I for one do agree that there are many ways to improve > the education process and improve EMS through education. I am all for the > meetings that have been discussed here on this list. And look for ways to > improve this program and myself as an instructor. As an EMS educator with > approximately 7 years experience teaching and the last 5 of those as an > assistant program director at a Community College, I too am becoming fully > frustrated by many thing that have been discussed that affect our ability to > educate our students. Some of the most frustrating are students that arrive > in our classes with NO study habits, students that can not read a text that > is written at a 9th grade level, students that within the local public > schools that have been allowed to retake exams multiple times until they > pass, students whose mothers call because I must be picking on her child and > he really should be given more attempts to complete projects and such. I am > frustrated by administrators at my school that think I should pass a certain > percentage on students that start a class and then are upset that the > student has trouble passing a National Certification Exam. I think you get > the idea that we can find many things to be frustrated about. But what > amazes me the most that many employers expect that they should be able to > hire a fresh graduate and use them as though they have years of experience > in all aspects of emergency care a new grad should never have trouble > intubating a patient, never have trouble starting IV's if they do it has to > be a education problem. > I know that many students I have will have trouble with written exams and > those exams tell me very little about how they will perform in an actual > emergency, I many times wished that there were a way to certify a individual > that included more than a multi-guess exam. Yes we test skills but under > very sterile conditions. What I really want to know is how did the person > perform under the distress of an emergency. > I guess what I am trying to say is that there are bad students, bad > instructors, bad programs and bad employers. NO I am not saying everyone or > every program must be completely redone. What I suggest is that we try to > look at all aspects of the problem and not just focus on a small part and > hope it will repair all the problems within EMS Education at one time. > Sorry that I ran this so long but today has been one of those wonderful days > at the college and I had much to vent about. I am sure that some on this > list will disagree with the above statements, and if you do and reply I will > listen to your thoughts as well on this subject, because that is where we > learn many things is listening to each other. > Thank you for reading my rants of the day and any comments that you might > have. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 The pulse and a patch hiring practice is what got us to the lack of professionalism that we here so much about here on this forum. But much of that is then pushed back on to education. Damn viscous cycle that is destroying the profession that I love. > I think, in terms of medical skills and knowledge, the paramedic (and EMT) > should leave the class prepared to practice. In terms of local system > issues, then these can be learned in the field. In the introduction to the > USDOT Paramedic Curriculum it says, " The EMT-Paramedic: National Standard > Curriculum represents the minimum required information to be presented > within a course leading to certification as a Paramedic. It is recognized > that there is additional specific education that will be required of > Paramedics who operate in the field, i.e. ambulance driving, heavy and light > rescue, basic extrication, special needs, and so on. It is also recognized > that this information might differ from locality to locality, and that each > training program or system should identify and provide special instruction > for these training requirements. This curriculum is intended to prepare a > medically competent Paramedic to operate in the field. Enrichment programs > and continuing education will help fulfill other specific needs for the > Paramedic's education. " Besides, once the student has graduated all " student > protections " are lost (including institutional liability insurance) and the > student is expecetd to function at the same level of care as a graduate > paramed (or EMT). The problem is sometimes deeper when the only two criteria > an employer looks for in a paramedic is the presence of a patch and a pulse. > > BEB > > > E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP > Midlothian, TX > > Rantings of an EMS educator > > > > Are the problems we see in EMS education an education problem or a problem > with what employers expect from a person leaving one of our training > faculties? In very few education settings do we expect those who are > completing their formal education to be fully functional in there > profession? By example when my son finishes his degree in business I do not > expect him to be hired as the chief executive officer for a fortune 500 > company, nor does the company hiring him expect the same, what they want is > someone who understands the general concepts of the job and that is will to > learn from a more seasoned person within there company. For many years > within this country we had an on the job training process through > internships or apprenticeship for many technical professions and we choose > to leave them behind for a more formal training such as college or prep > schools. Many EMS employers want these new medics to be able to fill a spot > in there rotation with out additional experience. > I ask these questions because of the dialog on this list of the last few > days has had a lot of discussion on EMS education and the pitfalls of the > education process. I for one do agree that there are many ways to improve > the education process and improve EMS through education. I am all for the > meetings that have been discussed here on this list. And look for ways to > improve this program and myself as an instructor. As an EMS educator with > approximately 7 years experience teaching and the last 5 of those as an > assistant program director at a Community College, I too am becoming fully > frustrated by many thing that have been discussed that affect our ability to > educate our students. Some of the most frustrating are students that arrive > in our classes with NO study habits, students that can not read a text that > is written at a 9th grade level, students that within the local public > schools that have been allowed to retake exams multiple times until they > pass, students whose mothers call because I must be picking on her child and > he really should be given more attempts to complete projects and such. I am > frustrated by administrators at my school that think I should pass a certain > percentage on students that start a class and then are upset that the > student has trouble passing a National Certification Exam. I think you get > the idea that we can find many things to be frustrated about. But what > amazes me the most that many employers expect that they should be able to > hire a fresh graduate and use them as though they have years of experience > in all aspects of emergency care a new grad should never have trouble > intubating a patient, never have trouble starting IV's if they do it has to > be a education problem. > I know that many students I have will have trouble with written exams and > those exams tell me very little about how they will perform in an actual > emergency, I many times wished that there were a way to certify a individual > that included more than a multi-guess exam. Yes we test skills but under > very sterile conditions. What I really want to know is how did the person > perform under the distress of an emergency. > I guess what I am trying to say is that there are bad students, bad > instructors, bad programs and bad employers. NO I am not saying everyone or > every program must be completely redone. What I suggest is that we try to > look at all aspects of the problem and not just focus on a small part and > hope it will repair all the problems within EMS Education at one time. > Sorry that I ran this so long but today has been one of those wonderful days > at the college and I had much to vent about. I am sure that some on this > list will disagree with the above statements, and if you do and reply I will > listen to your thoughts as well on this subject, because that is where we > learn many things is listening to each other. > Thank you for reading my rants of the day and any comments that you might > have. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 The pulse and a patch hiring practice is what got us to the lack of professionalism that we here so much about here on this forum. But much of that is then pushed back on to education. Damn viscous cycle that is destroying the profession that I love. > I think, in terms of medical skills and knowledge, the paramedic (and EMT) > should leave the class prepared to practice. In terms of local system > issues, then these can be learned in the field. In the introduction to the > USDOT Paramedic Curriculum it says, " The EMT-Paramedic: National Standard > Curriculum represents the minimum required information to be presented > within a course leading to certification as a Paramedic. It is recognized > that there is additional specific education that will be required of > Paramedics who operate in the field, i.e. ambulance driving, heavy and light > rescue, basic extrication, special needs, and so on. It is also recognized > that this information might differ from locality to locality, and that each > training program or system should identify and provide special instruction > for these training requirements. This curriculum is intended to prepare a > medically competent Paramedic to operate in the field. Enrichment programs > and continuing education will help fulfill other specific needs for the > Paramedic's education. " Besides, once the student has graduated all " student > protections " are lost (including institutional liability insurance) and the > student is expecetd to function at the same level of care as a graduate > paramed (or EMT). The problem is sometimes deeper when the only two criteria > an employer looks for in a paramedic is the presence of a patch and a pulse. > > BEB > > > E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP > Midlothian, TX > > Rantings of an EMS educator > > > > Are the problems we see in EMS education an education problem or a problem > with what employers expect from a person leaving one of our training > faculties? In very few education settings do we expect those who are > completing their formal education to be fully functional in there > profession? By example when my son finishes his degree in business I do not > expect him to be hired as the chief executive officer for a fortune 500 > company, nor does the company hiring him expect the same, what they want is > someone who understands the general concepts of the job and that is will to > learn from a more seasoned person within there company. For many years > within this country we had an on the job training process through > internships or apprenticeship for many technical professions and we choose > to leave them behind for a more formal training such as college or prep > schools. Many EMS employers want these new medics to be able to fill a spot > in there rotation with out additional experience. > I ask these questions because of the dialog on this list of the last few > days has had a lot of discussion on EMS education and the pitfalls of the > education process. I for one do agree that there are many ways to improve > the education process and improve EMS through education. I am all for the > meetings that have been discussed here on this list. And look for ways to > improve this program and myself as an instructor. As an EMS educator with > approximately 7 years experience teaching and the last 5 of those as an > assistant program director at a Community College, I too am becoming fully > frustrated by many thing that have been discussed that affect our ability to > educate our students. Some of the most frustrating are students that arrive > in our classes with NO study habits, students that can not read a text that > is written at a 9th grade level, students that within the local public > schools that have been allowed to retake exams multiple times until they > pass, students whose mothers call because I must be picking on her child and > he really should be given more attempts to complete projects and such. I am > frustrated by administrators at my school that think I should pass a certain > percentage on students that start a class and then are upset that the > student has trouble passing a National Certification Exam. I think you get > the idea that we can find many things to be frustrated about. But what > amazes me the most that many employers expect that they should be able to > hire a fresh graduate and use them as though they have years of experience > in all aspects of emergency care a new grad should never have trouble > intubating a patient, never have trouble starting IV's if they do it has to > be a education problem. > I know that many students I have will have trouble with written exams and > those exams tell me very little about how they will perform in an actual > emergency, I many times wished that there were a way to certify a individual > that included more than a multi-guess exam. Yes we test skills but under > very sterile conditions. What I really want to know is how did the person > perform under the distress of an emergency. > I guess what I am trying to say is that there are bad students, bad > instructors, bad programs and bad employers. NO I am not saying everyone or > every program must be completely redone. What I suggest is that we try to > look at all aspects of the problem and not just focus on a small part and > hope it will repair all the problems within EMS Education at one time. > Sorry that I ran this so long but today has been one of those wonderful days > at the college and I had much to vent about. I am sure that some on this > list will disagree with the above statements, and if you do and reply I will > listen to your thoughts as well on this subject, because that is where we > learn many things is listening to each other. > Thank you for reading my rants of the day and any comments that you might > have. > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 And to quote a previous posting " What do we do about it? " > Amen, brother, I FEEEEEELLLLLL your pain!!! > > Jane > > -------------- Original message from " vmmedic " <vmmedic@y...>: ----- --------- > > > Are the problems we see in EMS education an education problem or a > problem with what employers expect from a person leaving one of our > training faculties? In very few education settings do we expect > those who are completing their formal education to be fully > functional in there profession? By example when my son finishes his > degree in business I do not expect him to be hired as the chief > executive officer for a fortune 500 company, nor does the company > hiring him expect the same, what they want is someone who understands > the general concepts of the job and that is will to learn from a more > seasoned person within there company. For many years within this > country we had an on the job training process through internships or > apprenticeship for many technical professions and we choose to leave > them behind for a more formal training such as college or prep > schools. Many EMS employers want these new medics to be able to fill > a spot in there rotation with out additional experience. > I ask these questions because of the dialog on this list of the last > few days has had a lot of discussion on EMS education and the > pitfalls of the education process. I for one do agree that there are > many ways to improve the education process and improve EMS through > education. I am all for the meetings that have been discussed here on > this list. And look for ways to improve this program and myself as an > instructor. As an EMS educator with approximately 7 years experience > teaching and the last 5 of those as an assistant program director at > a Community College, I too am becoming fully frustrated by many thing > that have been discussed that affect our ability to educate our > students. Some of the most frustrating are students that arrive in > our classes with NO study habits, students that can not read a text > that is written at a 9th grade level, students that within the local > public schools that have been allowed to retake exams multiple times > until they pass, students whose mothers call because I must be > picking on her child and he really should be given more attempts to > complete projects and such. I am frustrated by administrators at my > school that think I should pass a certain percentage on students that > start a class and then are upset that the student has trouble passing > a National Certification Exam. I think you get the idea that we can > find many things to be frustrated about. But what amazes me the most > that many employers expect that they should be able to hire a fresh > graduate and use them as though they have years of experience in all > aspects of emergency care a new grad should never have trouble > intubating a patient, never have trouble starting IV's if they do it > has to be a education problem. > I know that many students I have will have trouble with written exams > and those exams tell me very little about how they will perform in an > actual emergency, I many times wished that there were a way to > certify a individual that included more than a multi-guess exam. Yes > we test skills but under very sterile conditions. What I really want > to know is how did the person perform under the distress of an > emergency. > I guess what I am trying to say is that there are bad students, bad > instructors, bad programs and bad employers. NO I am not saying > everyone or every program must be completely redone. What I suggest > is that we try to look at all aspects of the problem and not just > focus on a small part and hope it will repair all the problems within > EMS Education at one time. > Sorry that I ran this so long but today has been one of those > wonderful days at the college and I had much to vent about. I am sure > that some on this list will disagree with the above statements, and > if you do and reply I will listen to your thoughts as well on this > subject, because that is where we learn many things is listening to > each other. > Thank you for reading my rants of the day and any comments that you > might have. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 And to quote a previous posting " What do we do about it? " > Amen, brother, I FEEEEEELLLLLL your pain!!! > > Jane > > -------------- Original message from " vmmedic " <vmmedic@y...>: ----- --------- > > > Are the problems we see in EMS education an education problem or a > problem with what employers expect from a person leaving one of our > training faculties? In very few education settings do we expect > those who are completing their formal education to be fully > functional in there profession? By example when my son finishes his > degree in business I do not expect him to be hired as the chief > executive officer for a fortune 500 company, nor does the company > hiring him expect the same, what they want is someone who understands > the general concepts of the job and that is will to learn from a more > seasoned person within there company. For many years within this > country we had an on the job training process through internships or > apprenticeship for many technical professions and we choose to leave > them behind for a more formal training such as college or prep > schools. Many EMS employers want these new medics to be able to fill > a spot in there rotation with out additional experience. > I ask these questions because of the dialog on this list of the last > few days has had a lot of discussion on EMS education and the > pitfalls of the education process. I for one do agree that there are > many ways to improve the education process and improve EMS through > education. I am all for the meetings that have been discussed here on > this list. And look for ways to improve this program and myself as an > instructor. As an EMS educator with approximately 7 years experience > teaching and the last 5 of those as an assistant program director at > a Community College, I too am becoming fully frustrated by many thing > that have been discussed that affect our ability to educate our > students. Some of the most frustrating are students that arrive in > our classes with NO study habits, students that can not read a text > that is written at a 9th grade level, students that within the local > public schools that have been allowed to retake exams multiple times > until they pass, students whose mothers call because I must be > picking on her child and he really should be given more attempts to > complete projects and such. I am frustrated by administrators at my > school that think I should pass a certain percentage on students that > start a class and then are upset that the student has trouble passing > a National Certification Exam. I think you get the idea that we can > find many things to be frustrated about. But what amazes me the most > that many employers expect that they should be able to hire a fresh > graduate and use them as though they have years of experience in all > aspects of emergency care a new grad should never have trouble > intubating a patient, never have trouble starting IV's if they do it > has to be a education problem. > I know that many students I have will have trouble with written exams > and those exams tell me very little about how they will perform in an > actual emergency, I many times wished that there were a way to > certify a individual that included more than a multi-guess exam. Yes > we test skills but under very sterile conditions. What I really want > to know is how did the person perform under the distress of an > emergency. > I guess what I am trying to say is that there are bad students, bad > instructors, bad programs and bad employers. NO I am not saying > everyone or every program must be completely redone. What I suggest > is that we try to look at all aspects of the problem and not just > focus on a small part and hope it will repair all the problems within > EMS Education at one time. > Sorry that I ran this so long but today has been one of those > wonderful days at the college and I had much to vent about. I am sure > that some on this list will disagree with the above statements, and > if you do and reply I will listen to your thoughts as well on this > subject, because that is where we learn many things is listening to > each other. > Thank you for reading my rants of the day and any comments that you > might have. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2004 Report Share Posted November 3, 2004 And to quote a previous posting " What do we do about it? " > Amen, brother, I FEEEEEELLLLLL your pain!!! > > Jane > > -------------- Original message from " vmmedic " <vmmedic@y...>: ----- --------- > > > Are the problems we see in EMS education an education problem or a > problem with what employers expect from a person leaving one of our > training faculties? In very few education settings do we expect > those who are completing their formal education to be fully > functional in there profession? By example when my son finishes his > degree in business I do not expect him to be hired as the chief > executive officer for a fortune 500 company, nor does the company > hiring him expect the same, what they want is someone who understands > the general concepts of the job and that is will to learn from a more > seasoned person within there company. For many years within this > country we had an on the job training process through internships or > apprenticeship for many technical professions and we choose to leave > them behind for a more formal training such as college or prep > schools. Many EMS employers want these new medics to be able to fill > a spot in there rotation with out additional experience. > I ask these questions because of the dialog on this list of the last > few days has had a lot of discussion on EMS education and the > pitfalls of the education process. I for one do agree that there are > many ways to improve the education process and improve EMS through > education. I am all for the meetings that have been discussed here on > this list. And look for ways to improve this program and myself as an > instructor. As an EMS educator with approximately 7 years experience > teaching and the last 5 of those as an assistant program director at > a Community College, I too am becoming fully frustrated by many thing > that have been discussed that affect our ability to educate our > students. Some of the most frustrating are students that arrive in > our classes with NO study habits, students that can not read a text > that is written at a 9th grade level, students that within the local > public schools that have been allowed to retake exams multiple times > until they pass, students whose mothers call because I must be > picking on her child and he really should be given more attempts to > complete projects and such. I am frustrated by administrators at my > school that think I should pass a certain percentage on students that > start a class and then are upset that the student has trouble passing > a National Certification Exam. I think you get the idea that we can > find many things to be frustrated about. But what amazes me the most > that many employers expect that they should be able to hire a fresh > graduate and use them as though they have years of experience in all > aspects of emergency care a new grad should never have trouble > intubating a patient, never have trouble starting IV's if they do it > has to be a education problem. > I know that many students I have will have trouble with written exams > and those exams tell me very little about how they will perform in an > actual emergency, I many times wished that there were a way to > certify a individual that included more than a multi-guess exam. Yes > we test skills but under very sterile conditions. What I really want > to know is how did the person perform under the distress of an > emergency. > I guess what I am trying to say is that there are bad students, bad > instructors, bad programs and bad employers. NO I am not saying > everyone or every program must be completely redone. What I suggest > is that we try to look at all aspects of the problem and not just > focus on a small part and hope it will repair all the problems within > EMS Education at one time. > Sorry that I ran this so long but today has been one of those > wonderful days at the college and I had much to vent about. I am sure > that some on this list will disagree with the above statements, and > if you do and reply I will listen to your thoughts as well on this > subject, because that is where we learn many things is listening to > each other. > Thank you for reading my rants of the day and any comments that you > might have. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 this is soooooo true. i remember that when i went through class, it was the first class based on the new curriculum, and i felt it was very educational. the only irony to the whole thing was that my instructor told us that due to ems being incorporated into other aspects of health care (hosp,dr. office and so on) that our education would be based on a more clinical aspect that emergency. kenneth, i don't know if that is a universal belief at every comm college or not. my instructor also told us that we can't learn everything in class, so we have to gain the rest of it in the field. but at the same time, through heresay(and field training officers) the company that i work for is known for releasing their new employees even though field training officers have told the clinical director over and over again that the medic is not ready. of course it is based on the old saying that has been quoted over and over again in this discussion that " the company " just wants a " pulse and a patch, " or as another way i have heard also, a " warm body and a patch. " well now to start a new day saving lives and taking names. or as " the company " encrypted to me " make my money " . ________________________________________ THIS EMAIL DOES NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF GOLDSTAR EMS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 this is soooooo true. i remember that when i went through class, it was the first class based on the new curriculum, and i felt it was very educational. the only irony to the whole thing was that my instructor told us that due to ems being incorporated into other aspects of health care (hosp,dr. office and so on) that our education would be based on a more clinical aspect that emergency. kenneth, i don't know if that is a universal belief at every comm college or not. my instructor also told us that we can't learn everything in class, so we have to gain the rest of it in the field. but at the same time, through heresay(and field training officers) the company that i work for is known for releasing their new employees even though field training officers have told the clinical director over and over again that the medic is not ready. of course it is based on the old saying that has been quoted over and over again in this discussion that " the company " just wants a " pulse and a patch, " or as another way i have heard also, a " warm body and a patch. " well now to start a new day saving lives and taking names. or as " the company " encrypted to me " make my money " . ________________________________________ THIS EMAIL DOES NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF GOLDSTAR EMS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 I remember a state (not sure which one as I have been in 41 of them over the last 3 years), but one met with legistlators and hospital associations and physician associations and cleared the obstacles for paramedics to obtain in-hospital intubations (and other proecdures). The system worked well. The meetings put everything on the same page, the legislature passed a law that bypassed nursing laws that preveneted EMS students from doing skills in-hospital (the nurse association was a major impediment to EMS education), and the legislature provided some liability immunity for the instructing anesthesiologists. When the issue of civil liberties was raised (anesthesiologists having immunity upset the trial lawyers), the legislature determined that it was in the greater public interest to have competent and well-trained paramedics and that outweighed whatever civil remedies were lost by granting the anesthesiolgists some immunity. Why can't TCEP, EMSAT, the Texas EMS Instructors, TMA, TOMA, and THA meet and get this ironed out before our next legislature. I gurantee our largely rural legislature would buy it if properly presented. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX Re: Rantings of an EMS educator In a message dated 11/3/2004 8:26:24 PM Central Standard Time, bbledsoe@... writes: The problem is sometimes deeper when the only two criteria an employer looks for in a paramedic is the presence of a patch and a pulse. Thank you, I know that you have been listening to this quote of mine for years. I find it so much easier to train a newly graduated Paramedic in a program designed for my service and knowing that when I let him/her out of that 9 month program, he/she is finally ready to stand on their own two feet, and only then, do they get to work alone. Unfortunately, the problem becomes much more complicated when I send a seasoned paramedic into the same program and have to DE-program him/her from that company that hired him because he had a patch and a pulse. Andy Foote BEMS Manager Lamar University-Orange Faculty Member Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 I remember a state (not sure which one as I have been in 41 of them over the last 3 years), but one met with legistlators and hospital associations and physician associations and cleared the obstacles for paramedics to obtain in-hospital intubations (and other proecdures). The system worked well. The meetings put everything on the same page, the legislature passed a law that bypassed nursing laws that preveneted EMS students from doing skills in-hospital (the nurse association was a major impediment to EMS education), and the legislature provided some liability immunity for the instructing anesthesiologists. When the issue of civil liberties was raised (anesthesiologists having immunity upset the trial lawyers), the legislature determined that it was in the greater public interest to have competent and well-trained paramedics and that outweighed whatever civil remedies were lost by granting the anesthesiolgists some immunity. Why can't TCEP, EMSAT, the Texas EMS Instructors, TMA, TOMA, and THA meet and get this ironed out before our next legislature. I gurantee our largely rural legislature would buy it if properly presented. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX Re: Rantings of an EMS educator In a message dated 11/3/2004 8:26:24 PM Central Standard Time, bbledsoe@... writes: The problem is sometimes deeper when the only two criteria an employer looks for in a paramedic is the presence of a patch and a pulse. Thank you, I know that you have been listening to this quote of mine for years. I find it so much easier to train a newly graduated Paramedic in a program designed for my service and knowing that when I let him/her out of that 9 month program, he/she is finally ready to stand on their own two feet, and only then, do they get to work alone. Unfortunately, the problem becomes much more complicated when I send a seasoned paramedic into the same program and have to DE-program him/her from that company that hired him because he had a patch and a pulse. Andy Foote BEMS Manager Lamar University-Orange Faculty Member Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 I remember a state (not sure which one as I have been in 41 of them over the last 3 years), but one met with legistlators and hospital associations and physician associations and cleared the obstacles for paramedics to obtain in-hospital intubations (and other proecdures). The system worked well. The meetings put everything on the same page, the legislature passed a law that bypassed nursing laws that preveneted EMS students from doing skills in-hospital (the nurse association was a major impediment to EMS education), and the legislature provided some liability immunity for the instructing anesthesiologists. When the issue of civil liberties was raised (anesthesiologists having immunity upset the trial lawyers), the legislature determined that it was in the greater public interest to have competent and well-trained paramedics and that outweighed whatever civil remedies were lost by granting the anesthesiolgists some immunity. Why can't TCEP, EMSAT, the Texas EMS Instructors, TMA, TOMA, and THA meet and get this ironed out before our next legislature. I gurantee our largely rural legislature would buy it if properly presented. BEB E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP Midlothian, TX Re: Rantings of an EMS educator In a message dated 11/3/2004 8:26:24 PM Central Standard Time, bbledsoe@... writes: The problem is sometimes deeper when the only two criteria an employer looks for in a paramedic is the presence of a patch and a pulse. Thank you, I know that you have been listening to this quote of mine for years. I find it so much easier to train a newly graduated Paramedic in a program designed for my service and knowing that when I let him/her out of that 9 month program, he/she is finally ready to stand on their own two feet, and only then, do they get to work alone. Unfortunately, the problem becomes much more complicated when I send a seasoned paramedic into the same program and have to DE-program him/her from that company that hired him because he had a patch and a pulse. Andy Foote BEMS Manager Lamar University-Orange Faculty Member Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 et al, Perhaps this is something that EMSAT can take on. I'll bring this to the Board's attention. Randell Re: Rantings of an EMS educator In a message dated 11/3/2004 8:26:24 PM Central Standard Time, bbledsoe@... writes: The problem is sometimes deeper when the only two criteria an employer looks for in a paramedic is the presence of a patch and a pulse. Thank you, I know that you have been listening to this quote of mine for years. I find it so much easier to train a newly graduated Paramedic in a program designed for my service and knowing that when I let him/her out of that 9 month program, he/she is finally ready to stand on their own two feet, and only then, do they get to work alone. Unfortunately, the problem becomes much more complicated when I send a seasoned paramedic into the same program and have to DE-program him/her from that company that hired him because he had a patch and a pulse. Andy Foote BEMS Manager Lamar University-Orange Faculty Member Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 et al, Perhaps this is something that EMSAT can take on. I'll bring this to the Board's attention. Randell Re: Rantings of an EMS educator In a message dated 11/3/2004 8:26:24 PM Central Standard Time, bbledsoe@... writes: The problem is sometimes deeper when the only two criteria an employer looks for in a paramedic is the presence of a patch and a pulse. Thank you, I know that you have been listening to this quote of mine for years. I find it so much easier to train a newly graduated Paramedic in a program designed for my service and knowing that when I let him/her out of that 9 month program, he/she is finally ready to stand on their own two feet, and only then, do they get to work alone. Unfortunately, the problem becomes much more complicated when I send a seasoned paramedic into the same program and have to DE-program him/her from that company that hired him because he had a patch and a pulse. Andy Foote BEMS Manager Lamar University-Orange Faculty Member Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 I'm not sure some of it we will ever have any control over - such as the attitudes and demeanors of upper management in the colleges. As for the attitude problems with physicians and nurses in relation to student rotations, we can't defeat them all. However, I think we as a state need to figure out a way to better educate hospitals as a whole as to what we do out here, how our training programs are structured, and what our needs are. What I see is that we are typically an afterthought - just those EMS people we have to deal with. I have to wonder if there is a way that we could approach this issue from a higher level, maybe something that could filter down through THA? Or am I grasping here???? Jane -------------- Original message from " vmmedic " : -------------- And to quote a previous posting " What do we do about it? " > Amen, brother, I FEEEEEELLLLLL your pain!!! > > Jane > > -------------- Original message from " vmmedic " <vmmedic@y...>: ----- --------- > > > Are the problems we see in EMS education an education problem or a > problem with what employers expect from a person leaving one of our > training faculties? In very few education settings do we expect > those who are completing their formal education to be fully > functional in there profession? By example when my son finishes his > degree in business I do not expect him to be hired as the chief > executive officer for a fortune 500 company, nor does the company > hiring him expect the same, what they want is someone who understands > the general concepts of the job and that is will to learn from a more > seasoned person within there company. For many years within this > country we had an on the job training process through internships or > apprenticeship for many technical professions and we choose to leave > them behind for a more formal training such as college or prep > schools. Many EMS employers want these new medics to be able to fill > a spot in there rotation with out additional experience. > I ask these questions because of the dialog on this list of the last > few days has had a lot of discussion on EMS education and the > pitfalls of the education process. I for one do agree that there are > many ways to improve the education process and improve EMS through > education. I am all for the meetings that have been discussed here on > this list. And look for ways to improve this program and myself as an > instructor. As an EMS educator with approximately 7 years experience > teaching and the last 5 of those as an assistant program director at > a Community College, I too am becoming fully frustrated by many thing > that have been discussed that affect our ability to educate our > students. Some of the most frustrating are students that arrive in > our classes with NO study habits, students that can not read a text > that is written at a 9th grade level, students that within the local > public schools that have been allowed to retake exams multiple times > until they pass, students whose mothers call because I must be > picking on her child and he really should be given more attempts to > complete projects and such. I am frustrated by administrators at my > school that think I should pass a certain percentage on students that > start a class and then are upset that the student has trouble passing > a National Certification Exam. I think you get the idea that we can > find many things to be frustrated about. But what amazes me the most > that many employers expect that they should be able to hire a fresh > graduate and use them as though they have years of experience in all > aspects of emergency care a new grad should never have trouble > intubating a patient, never have trouble starting IV's if they do it > has to be a education problem. > I know that many students I have will have trouble with written exams > and those exams tell me very little about how they will perform in an > actual emergency, I many times wished that there were a way to > certify a individual that included more than a multi-guess exam. Yes > we test skills but under very sterile conditions. What I really want > to know is how did the person perform under the distress of an > emergency. > I guess what I am trying to say is that there are bad students, bad > instructors, bad programs and bad employers. NO I am not saying > everyone or every program must be completely redone. What I suggest > is that we try to look at all aspects of the problem and not just > focus on a small part and hope it will repair all the problems within > EMS Education at one time. > Sorry that I ran this so long but today has been one of those > wonderful days at the college and I had much to vent about. I am sure > that some on this list will disagree with the above statements, and > if you do and reply I will listen to your thoughts as well on this > subject, because that is where we learn many things is listening to > each other. > Thank you for reading my rants of the day and any comments that you > might have. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 I'm not sure some of it we will ever have any control over - such as the attitudes and demeanors of upper management in the colleges. As for the attitude problems with physicians and nurses in relation to student rotations, we can't defeat them all. However, I think we as a state need to figure out a way to better educate hospitals as a whole as to what we do out here, how our training programs are structured, and what our needs are. What I see is that we are typically an afterthought - just those EMS people we have to deal with. I have to wonder if there is a way that we could approach this issue from a higher level, maybe something that could filter down through THA? Or am I grasping here???? Jane -------------- Original message from " vmmedic " : -------------- And to quote a previous posting " What do we do about it? " > Amen, brother, I FEEEEEELLLLLL your pain!!! > > Jane > > -------------- Original message from " vmmedic " <vmmedic@y...>: ----- --------- > > > Are the problems we see in EMS education an education problem or a > problem with what employers expect from a person leaving one of our > training faculties? In very few education settings do we expect > those who are completing their formal education to be fully > functional in there profession? By example when my son finishes his > degree in business I do not expect him to be hired as the chief > executive officer for a fortune 500 company, nor does the company > hiring him expect the same, what they want is someone who understands > the general concepts of the job and that is will to learn from a more > seasoned person within there company. For many years within this > country we had an on the job training process through internships or > apprenticeship for many technical professions and we choose to leave > them behind for a more formal training such as college or prep > schools. Many EMS employers want these new medics to be able to fill > a spot in there rotation with out additional experience. > I ask these questions because of the dialog on this list of the last > few days has had a lot of discussion on EMS education and the > pitfalls of the education process. I for one do agree that there are > many ways to improve the education process and improve EMS through > education. I am all for the meetings that have been discussed here on > this list. And look for ways to improve this program and myself as an > instructor. As an EMS educator with approximately 7 years experience > teaching and the last 5 of those as an assistant program director at > a Community College, I too am becoming fully frustrated by many thing > that have been discussed that affect our ability to educate our > students. Some of the most frustrating are students that arrive in > our classes with NO study habits, students that can not read a text > that is written at a 9th grade level, students that within the local > public schools that have been allowed to retake exams multiple times > until they pass, students whose mothers call because I must be > picking on her child and he really should be given more attempts to > complete projects and such. I am frustrated by administrators at my > school that think I should pass a certain percentage on students that > start a class and then are upset that the student has trouble passing > a National Certification Exam. I think you get the idea that we can > find many things to be frustrated about. But what amazes me the most > that many employers expect that they should be able to hire a fresh > graduate and use them as though they have years of experience in all > aspects of emergency care a new grad should never have trouble > intubating a patient, never have trouble starting IV's if they do it > has to be a education problem. > I know that many students I have will have trouble with written exams > and those exams tell me very little about how they will perform in an > actual emergency, I many times wished that there were a way to > certify a individual that included more than a multi-guess exam. Yes > we test skills but under very sterile conditions. What I really want > to know is how did the person perform under the distress of an > emergency. > I guess what I am trying to say is that there are bad students, bad > instructors, bad programs and bad employers. NO I am not saying > everyone or every program must be completely redone. What I suggest > is that we try to look at all aspects of the problem and not just > focus on a small part and hope it will repair all the problems within > EMS Education at one time. > Sorry that I ran this so long but today has been one of those > wonderful days at the college and I had much to vent about. I am sure > that some on this list will disagree with the above statements, and > if you do and reply I will listen to your thoughts as well on this > subject, because that is where we learn many things is listening to > each other. > Thank you for reading my rants of the day and any comments that you > might have. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Dr. B, that is the best idea I have heard yet!!! I think we really should think about this and maybe do just what you said. So how would we go about this now? jane --------- Re: Rantings of an EMS educator In a message dated 11/3/2004 8:26:24 PM Central Standard Time, bbledsoe@... writes: The problem is sometimes deeper when the only two criteria an employer looks for in a paramedic is the presence of a patch and a pulse. Thank you, I know that you have been listening to this quote of mine for years. I find it so much easier to train a newly graduated Paramedic in a program designed for my service and knowing that when I let him/her out of that 9 month program, he/she is finally ready to stand on their own two feet, and only then, do they get to work alone. Unfortunately, the problem becomes much more complicated when I send a seasoned paramedic into the same program and have to DE-program him/her from that company that hired him because he had a patch and a pulse. Andy Foote BEMS Manager Lamar University-Orange Faculty Member Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2004 Report Share Posted November 4, 2004 Dr. B, that is the best idea I have heard yet!!! I think we really should think about this and maybe do just what you said. So how would we go about this now? jane --------- Re: Rantings of an EMS educator In a message dated 11/3/2004 8:26:24 PM Central Standard Time, bbledsoe@... writes: The problem is sometimes deeper when the only two criteria an employer looks for in a paramedic is the presence of a patch and a pulse. Thank you, I know that you have been listening to this quote of mine for years. I find it so much easier to train a newly graduated Paramedic in a program designed for my service and knowing that when I let him/her out of that 9 month program, he/she is finally ready to stand on their own two feet, and only then, do they get to work alone. Unfortunately, the problem becomes much more complicated when I send a seasoned paramedic into the same program and have to DE-program him/her from that company that hired him because he had a patch and a pulse. Andy Foote BEMS Manager Lamar University-Orange Faculty Member Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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