Re: A mass casualty incident, looking for a place to happen

[Guest guest]

Aren't Highland Park and Watagua in the D/FW area both running the DPS model

still? And isn't Southlake running some variant of a DPS model?

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, NREMT-B (passed, registered, waiting on arrival of

paperwork)

[Guest guest]

Aren't Highland Park and Watagua in the D/FW area both running the DPS model

still? And isn't Southlake running some variant of a DPS model?

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, NREMT-B (passed, registered, waiting on arrival of

paperwork)

[Guest guest]

As a physician, I cannot disclose what is told to me in confidence (except

for a few very strict situations where the court has held the physician

immune and include such things as child abuse, possible homicide) and

paramedics working " under my license " as medical director are therefore

subject to the same constraints. Dallas?Fort Worth Airport, Highland Park,

Haltom City and several other Texas cities have been DPS (and may be

functionally on paper) but have abandoned the multiple roles--people only

specialize in one area. What is a DFW DPS paramedic was working security at

the South Entrance and he spots a car driven by a person he once treated as

a patient at which time the patient confided he smoked crack? Ethically,

could the paramedic police officer use this information in a law enforcment

capacity? If so, where is the patient advocacy and confidentiality.

There are some police/EMS operations but these are primarily in the east

coast where both the police department and ambulance are largely volunteer

and they have been in existence for a long time. I am not sure how their

ethics are--but have heard stories. My comparison was the dual role of a

police officer/paramedic (and I like police officers--they let me out of

tickets all the time), but which hat are you wearing. You may well be able

to manage such an ethical conflict, but have a skilled civil liberties

attorney get you on the stand and ask you about the Oath of Geneva, the EMT

Oath, the Hippocratic Oath, the Osteopathic Oath and then contrast the

discrpenecies between that and the role of a sworn officer. And, in Texas, a

sworn officer assigned to a PD is " never " off duty--thus if they don't

report a possible criminal act, even if it betrays patient confidentiality,

then they may be subject to sanctions by the TCOLE. Gene and Wes might be

able to elaborate further. Many of these points were raised by the late Jim

Page in a conversation not that long ago.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

Re: A mass casualty incident, looking for a place to

happen

I am going to say that it depends. All officers have discretion whether to

arrest, cite or none of the above. And what would you be doing, disclosing

patient information to yourself? I am not going to let myself know that

info? Give me a break. Nah, I don't buy that police and EMS can't be

meshed. It can be done, and is done. Now, that being said, it needs to be

done with much wisdom and integrity, which we should possess anyway.

I am not so sure about your statement, Dr. B, that " Everywhere the DPS

system has been attempted, EMS has been the stepchild and most of the

departments have reverted to more traditional models. " I can't cite any off

of the top of my head, but I know that police agencies, in other states at

least, are the sole EMS providers in some areas.

Corporal Moseley, LP

Cleburne PD SWAT

Tactical Paramedic

Pager:

What if the patient is intoxicated and you are responding as a paramedic? Do

you arrest him? If so, you disclosed confidential patient information to the

police. Everywhere the DPS system has been attempted, EMS has been the

stepchild and most of the departments have reverted to more traditional

models.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

As a physician, I cannot disclose what is told to me in confidence (except

for a few very strict situations where the court has held the physician

immune and include such things as child abuse, possible homicide) and

paramedics working " under my license " as medical director are therefore

subject to the same constraints. Dallas?Fort Worth Airport, Highland Park,

Haltom City and several other Texas cities have been DPS (and may be

functionally on paper) but have abandoned the multiple roles--people only

specialize in one area. What is a DFW DPS paramedic was working security at

the South Entrance and he spots a car driven by a person he once treated as

a patient at which time the patient confided he smoked crack? Ethically,

could the paramedic police officer use this information in a law enforcment

capacity? If so, where is the patient advocacy and confidentiality.

There are some police/EMS operations but these are primarily in the east

coast where both the police department and ambulance are largely volunteer

and they have been in existence for a long time. I am not sure how their

ethics are--but have heard stories. My comparison was the dual role of a

police officer/paramedic (and I like police officers--they let me out of

tickets all the time), but which hat are you wearing. You may well be able

to manage such an ethical conflict, but have a skilled civil liberties

attorney get you on the stand and ask you about the Oath of Geneva, the EMT

Oath, the Hippocratic Oath, the Osteopathic Oath and then contrast the

discrpenecies between that and the role of a sworn officer. And, in Texas, a

sworn officer assigned to a PD is " never " off duty--thus if they don't

report a possible criminal act, even if it betrays patient confidentiality,

then they may be subject to sanctions by the TCOLE. Gene and Wes might be

able to elaborate further. Many of these points were raised by the late Jim

Page in a conversation not that long ago.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

Re: A mass casualty incident, looking for a place to

happen

I am going to say that it depends. All officers have discretion whether to

arrest, cite or none of the above. And what would you be doing, disclosing

patient information to yourself? I am not going to let myself know that

info? Give me a break. Nah, I don't buy that police and EMS can't be

meshed. It can be done, and is done. Now, that being said, it needs to be

done with much wisdom and integrity, which we should possess anyway.

I am not so sure about your statement, Dr. B, that " Everywhere the DPS

system has been attempted, EMS has been the stepchild and most of the

departments have reverted to more traditional models. " I can't cite any off

of the top of my head, but I know that police agencies, in other states at

least, are the sole EMS providers in some areas.

Corporal Moseley, LP

Cleburne PD SWAT

Tactical Paramedic

Pager:

What if the patient is intoxicated and you are responding as a paramedic? Do

you arrest him? If so, you disclosed confidential patient information to the

police. Everywhere the DPS system has been attempted, EMS has been the

stepchild and most of the departments have reverted to more traditional

models.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

As a physician, I cannot disclose what is told to me in confidence (except

for a few very strict situations where the court has held the physician

immune and include such things as child abuse, possible homicide) and

paramedics working " under my license " as medical director are therefore

subject to the same constraints. Dallas?Fort Worth Airport, Highland Park,

Haltom City and several other Texas cities have been DPS (and may be

functionally on paper) but have abandoned the multiple roles--people only

specialize in one area. What is a DFW DPS paramedic was working security at

the South Entrance and he spots a car driven by a person he once treated as

a patient at which time the patient confided he smoked crack? Ethically,

could the paramedic police officer use this information in a law enforcment

capacity? If so, where is the patient advocacy and confidentiality.

There are some police/EMS operations but these are primarily in the east

coast where both the police department and ambulance are largely volunteer

and they have been in existence for a long time. I am not sure how their

ethics are--but have heard stories. My comparison was the dual role of a

police officer/paramedic (and I like police officers--they let me out of

tickets all the time), but which hat are you wearing. You may well be able

to manage such an ethical conflict, but have a skilled civil liberties

attorney get you on the stand and ask you about the Oath of Geneva, the EMT

Oath, the Hippocratic Oath, the Osteopathic Oath and then contrast the

discrpenecies between that and the role of a sworn officer. And, in Texas, a

sworn officer assigned to a PD is " never " off duty--thus if they don't

report a possible criminal act, even if it betrays patient confidentiality,

then they may be subject to sanctions by the TCOLE. Gene and Wes might be

able to elaborate further. Many of these points were raised by the late Jim

Page in a conversation not that long ago.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

Re: A mass casualty incident, looking for a place to

happen

I am going to say that it depends. All officers have discretion whether to

arrest, cite or none of the above. And what would you be doing, disclosing

patient information to yourself? I am not going to let myself know that

info? Give me a break. Nah, I don't buy that police and EMS can't be

meshed. It can be done, and is done. Now, that being said, it needs to be

done with much wisdom and integrity, which we should possess anyway.

I am not so sure about your statement, Dr. B, that " Everywhere the DPS

system has been attempted, EMS has been the stepchild and most of the

departments have reverted to more traditional models. " I can't cite any off

of the top of my head, but I know that police agencies, in other states at

least, are the sole EMS providers in some areas.

Corporal Moseley, LP

Cleburne PD SWAT

Tactical Paramedic

Pager:

What if the patient is intoxicated and you are responding as a paramedic? Do

you arrest him? If so, you disclosed confidential patient information to the

police. Everywhere the DPS system has been attempted, EMS has been the

stepchild and most of the departments have reverted to more traditional

models.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

,

DFW International Airport is a good example. They have split the DPS into

Fire/EMS and Police. Many agencies have found that to keep personnel up on

the latest changes in their chosen field, they end up in school all the

time. I think it is too much to ask a person to maintain a triple

certification and be proficient in all the disciplines.

Being a Police Officer and Paramedic can present a dilemma, you are

obligated to maintain the patient's information as confidential, yet you

have a duty to act as a peace officer. Which hat do you wear???

I have seen officer's in the situation, it just makes it tough on the rank

and file.

Bernie Stafford EMTP

Re: A mass casualty incident, looking for a place to

happen

I am going to say that it depends. All officers have discretion whether to

arrest, cite or none of the above. And what would you be doing, disclosing

patient information to yourself? I am not going to let myself know that

info? Give me a break. Nah, I don't buy that police and EMS can't be

meshed. It can be done, and is done. Now, that being said, it needs to be

done with much wisdom and integrity, which we should possess anyway.

I am not so sure about your statement, Dr. B, that " Everywhere the DPS

system has been attempted, EMS has been the stepchild and most of the

departments have reverted to more traditional models. " I can't cite any off

of the top of my head, but I know that police agencies, in other states at

least, are the sole EMS providers in some areas.

Corporal Moseley, LP

Cleburne PD SWAT

Tactical Paramedic

Pager:

What if the patient is intoxicated and you are responding as a paramedic? Do

you arrest him? If so, you disclosed confidential patient information to the

police. Everywhere the DPS system has been attempted, EMS has been the

stepchild and most of the departments have reverted to more traditional

models.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

,

DFW International Airport is a good example. They have split the DPS into

Fire/EMS and Police. Many agencies have found that to keep personnel up on

the latest changes in their chosen field, they end up in school all the

time. I think it is too much to ask a person to maintain a triple

certification and be proficient in all the disciplines.

Being a Police Officer and Paramedic can present a dilemma, you are

obligated to maintain the patient's information as confidential, yet you

have a duty to act as a peace officer. Which hat do you wear???

I have seen officer's in the situation, it just makes it tough on the rank

and file.

Bernie Stafford EMTP

Re: A mass casualty incident, looking for a place to

happen

I am going to say that it depends. All officers have discretion whether to

arrest, cite or none of the above. And what would you be doing, disclosing

patient information to yourself? I am not going to let myself know that

info? Give me a break. Nah, I don't buy that police and EMS can't be

meshed. It can be done, and is done. Now, that being said, it needs to be

done with much wisdom and integrity, which we should possess anyway.

I am not so sure about your statement, Dr. B, that " Everywhere the DPS

system has been attempted, EMS has been the stepchild and most of the

departments have reverted to more traditional models. " I can't cite any off

of the top of my head, but I know that police agencies, in other states at

least, are the sole EMS providers in some areas.

Corporal Moseley, LP

Cleburne PD SWAT

Tactical Paramedic

Pager:

What if the patient is intoxicated and you are responding as a paramedic? Do

you arrest him? If so, you disclosed confidential patient information to the

police. Everywhere the DPS system has been attempted, EMS has been the

stepchild and most of the departments have reverted to more traditional

models.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

Coming from up north (yes, former yankee converted Texan) The DPS model is

used in other places and in very progessive departments. My hubby is in law

enforcment and is constantly looking for a dps department. Most in the metro

plex have done away with that model for whatever reason.

I think that having the police medically trained is an excellent way to have

patient care on scene immediately. I came from a very progessive EMS and LE

county where all the cops (city and county) were EMT trained and carried O2

and AEDs in their patrol cars. Think about it....cops are usually on scene

first. We had quite a few saves by cop. I think that it is an unfair

generalization to put ALL cops in that COP mode all the time. There are a

ton of caring individuals out there who don't go around putting everyone

they see in violation in jail. These are the unseen and unsung frontline

interveners/social workers/counselors in our communities.

And also, to the speack to the crack example given before. A cop on a

medical with a violator will most likely send the patient with the ambulance

and they won't be arrested anyway. It goes back to that common sense thing,

and most of the time there will be enough " evidence " on scene to convict w/o

patient's statement if a conviction is warranted.

And those whose lives were saved by the cops on scenes with defibs proabably

could add more to this conversation. Walk a mile before making

generalizations is my motto. TEAMWORK....We are all in it for the same

reasons....Blue or red

Re: A mass casualty incident, looking for a place to

happen

I am going to say that it depends. All officers have discretion whether

to

arrest, cite or none of the above. And what would you be doing,

disclosing

patient information to yourself? I am not going to let myself know that

info? Give me a break. Nah, I don't buy that police and EMS can't be

meshed. It can be done, and is done. Now, that being said, it needs to

be

done with much wisdom and integrity, which we should possess anyway.

I am not so sure about your statement, Dr. B, that " Everywhere the DPS

system has been attempted, EMS has been the stepchild and most of the

departments have reverted to more traditional models. " I can't cite any

off

of the top of my head, but I know that police agencies, in other states at

least, are the sole EMS providers in some areas.

Corporal Moseley, LP

Cleburne PD SWAT

Tactical Paramedic

Pager:

What if the patient is intoxicated and you are responding as a paramedic?

Do

you arrest him? If so, you disclosed confidential patient information to

the

police. Everywhere the DPS system has been attempted, EMS has been the

stepchild and most of the departments have reverted to more traditional

models.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

Coming from up north (yes, former yankee converted Texan) The DPS model is

used in other places and in very progessive departments. My hubby is in law

enforcment and is constantly looking for a dps department. Most in the metro

plex have done away with that model for whatever reason.

I think that having the police medically trained is an excellent way to have

patient care on scene immediately. I came from a very progessive EMS and LE

county where all the cops (city and county) were EMT trained and carried O2

and AEDs in their patrol cars. Think about it....cops are usually on scene

first. We had quite a few saves by cop. I think that it is an unfair

generalization to put ALL cops in that COP mode all the time. There are a

ton of caring individuals out there who don't go around putting everyone

they see in violation in jail. These are the unseen and unsung frontline

interveners/social workers/counselors in our communities.

And also, to the speack to the crack example given before. A cop on a

medical with a violator will most likely send the patient with the ambulance

and they won't be arrested anyway. It goes back to that common sense thing,

and most of the time there will be enough " evidence " on scene to convict w/o

patient's statement if a conviction is warranted.

And those whose lives were saved by the cops on scenes with defibs proabably

could add more to this conversation. Walk a mile before making

generalizations is my motto. TEAMWORK....We are all in it for the same

reasons....Blue or red

Re: A mass casualty incident, looking for a place to

happen

I am going to say that it depends. All officers have discretion whether

to

arrest, cite or none of the above. And what would you be doing,

disclosing

patient information to yourself? I am not going to let myself know that

info? Give me a break. Nah, I don't buy that police and EMS can't be

meshed. It can be done, and is done. Now, that being said, it needs to

be

done with much wisdom and integrity, which we should possess anyway.

I am not so sure about your statement, Dr. B, that " Everywhere the DPS

system has been attempted, EMS has been the stepchild and most of the

departments have reverted to more traditional models. " I can't cite any

off

of the top of my head, but I know that police agencies, in other states at

least, are the sole EMS providers in some areas.

Corporal Moseley, LP

Cleburne PD SWAT

Tactical Paramedic

Pager:

What if the patient is intoxicated and you are responding as a paramedic?

Do

you arrest him? If so, you disclosed confidential patient information to

the

police. Everywhere the DPS system has been attempted, EMS has been the

stepchild and most of the departments have reverted to more traditional

models.

BEB

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

[Guest guest]

Congratulations on getting your Basic.

Meredith

Re: A mass casualty incident, looking for a place to

happen

Aren't Highland Park and Watagua in the D/FW area both running the DPS model

still? And isn't Southlake running some variant of a DPS model?

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, NREMT-B (passed, registered, waiting on arrival of

paperwork)

[Guest guest]

Congratulations on getting your Basic.

Meredith

Re: A mass casualty incident, looking for a place to

happen

Aren't Highland Park and Watagua in the D/FW area both running the DPS model

still? And isn't Southlake running some variant of a DPS model?

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, NREMT-B (passed, registered, waiting on arrival of

paperwork)

[Guest guest]

Congratulations on getting your Basic.

Meredith

Re: A mass casualty incident, looking for a place to

happen

Aren't Highland Park and Watagua in the D/FW area both running the DPS model

still? And isn't Southlake running some variant of a DPS model?

-Wes Ogilvie, MPA, JD, NREMT-B (passed, registered, waiting on arrival of

paperwork)

[Guest guest]

s, TX.

Mike

>

> I am going to say that it depends. All officers have discretion whether to

> arrest, cite or none of the above. And what would you be doing, disclosing

> patient information to yourself? I am not going to let myself know that

> info? Give me a break. Nah, I don't buy that police and EMS can't be

> meshed. It can be done, and is done. Now, that being said, it needs to be

> done with much wisdom and integrity, which we should possess anyway.

>

> I am not so sure about your statement, Dr. B, that " Everywhere the DPS

> system has been attempted, EMS has been the stepchild and most of the

> departments have reverted to more traditional models. " I can't cite any off

> of the top of my head, but I know that police agencies, in other states at

> least, are the sole EMS providers in some areas.

>

> Corporal Moseley, LP

>

>

> Cleburne PD SWAT

> Tactical Paramedic

> Pager:

>

> What if the patient is intoxicated and you are responding as a paramedic? Do

> you arrest him? If so, you disclosed confidential patient information to the

> police. Everywhere the DPS system has been attempted, EMS has been the

> stepchild and most of the departments have reverted to more traditional

> models.

>

> BEB

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

s, TX.

Mike

>

> I am going to say that it depends. All officers have discretion whether to

> arrest, cite or none of the above. And what would you be doing, disclosing

> patient information to yourself? I am not going to let myself know that

> info? Give me a break. Nah, I don't buy that police and EMS can't be

> meshed. It can be done, and is done. Now, that being said, it needs to be

> done with much wisdom and integrity, which we should possess anyway.

>

> I am not so sure about your statement, Dr. B, that " Everywhere the DPS

> system has been attempted, EMS has been the stepchild and most of the

> departments have reverted to more traditional models. " I can't cite any off

> of the top of my head, but I know that police agencies, in other states at

> least, are the sole EMS providers in some areas.

>

> Corporal Moseley, LP

>

>

> Cleburne PD SWAT

> Tactical Paramedic

> Pager:

>

> What if the patient is intoxicated and you are responding as a paramedic? Do

> you arrest him? If so, you disclosed confidential patient information to the

> police. Everywhere the DPS system has been attempted, EMS has been the

> stepchild and most of the departments have reverted to more traditional

> models.

>

> BEB

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

s, TX.

Mike

>

> I am going to say that it depends. All officers have discretion whether to

> arrest, cite or none of the above. And what would you be doing, disclosing

> patient information to yourself? I am not going to let myself know that

> info? Give me a break. Nah, I don't buy that police and EMS can't be

> meshed. It can be done, and is done. Now, that being said, it needs to be

> done with much wisdom and integrity, which we should possess anyway.

>

> I am not so sure about your statement, Dr. B, that " Everywhere the DPS

> system has been attempted, EMS has been the stepchild and most of the

> departments have reverted to more traditional models. " I can't cite any off

> of the top of my head, but I know that police agencies, in other states at

> least, are the sole EMS providers in some areas.

>

> Corporal Moseley, LP

>

>

> Cleburne PD SWAT

> Tactical Paramedic

> Pager:

>

> What if the patient is intoxicated and you are responding as a paramedic? Do

> you arrest him? If so, you disclosed confidential patient information to the

> police. Everywhere the DPS system has been attempted, EMS has been the

> stepchild and most of the departments have reverted to more traditional

> models.

>

> BEB

>

> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

> Midlothian, TX

>

>

>