Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Kenny, You say you are for the National SOP. I disagree with you sir. You used the example of surgical and needle cricothyrotomy currently being used by some providers. Let me start off by saying I have never had to do a needle or surgical cricothyrotomy in my 23+ years as a Paramedic. I am very proud of the fact that I have never had to use either of these tools. I do teach these skills and have for over six years. I tell all my students, street medics, critical care medics and flight nurses that these procedures are a last resort when all other basic and advanced airway procedures are exhausted. However I do see the need for all of these skills to be available to benefit our patients and give them a chance of survival. Until someone comes up with research that proves these skills are unnecessary in pre-hospital care why limit their use? Let me give you an example why having both skills is needed. I teach these skills in cadaver labs. On more than one occasion I have found that the commercial needle cricothyrotomy devices out there today have limitations and may not always work. One particular cadaver lab comes to mind when the entire class (12 Paramedics with the Medical Director present) attempted a needle cricothyrotomy with a commercial kit on a very large cadaver. After everyone had an attempt, I made an incision over the trachea and looked at the crio/thyroid membrane. Not a single medic had successfully completed the needle cricothyrotomy. All of the attempts ended up in the subcutaneous tissue. I realize that most field paramedics would catch this problem, but what do you use if the surgical option is not available to you. The patient suffers because you are not allowed to do this procedure. Why should we limit the level of care we can provide to our patients? Isn't that why we are here for the patients! I feel the new national standard is a huge step back in its current format. It needs work, you cannot plug every system into a format like that. What works for a rural department would not work for Dallas Fire Rescue and vice versa. Before we jump into this we need to take a long hard look at this document and analyze the effect it is going to have on Texas and the rest of the country, then move forward. I am all for more education, I tell my students every time I hold a cadaver lab I learn something new about the human anatomy with every lab I teach. I enjoy learning and bettering myself to allow me to provide the best patient care possible. But I am convinced we need good data, research to move forward with this National Standard. I just don't see that component being used to approach this huge change in the way we provide patient care. EMS has always lacked in the research to backup our claims. I think now is the time to get that research done. Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private ambulance provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in Paramedicine. I can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the budget to continue the current level of care they offer under the current National SOP. What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to Paramedic school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there to have those 2 medics get a BA? Do I have the answers, no, just a few suggests and it will take someone a lot smarter than me to solve this quandary. I hope these folks step up and take up the challenge. Bernie Stafford EMTP The opinions expressed in the email are my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Kenny, You say you are for the National SOP. I disagree with you sir. You used the example of surgical and needle cricothyrotomy currently being used by some providers. Let me start off by saying I have never had to do a needle or surgical cricothyrotomy in my 23+ years as a Paramedic. I am very proud of the fact that I have never had to use either of these tools. I do teach these skills and have for over six years. I tell all my students, street medics, critical care medics and flight nurses that these procedures are a last resort when all other basic and advanced airway procedures are exhausted. However I do see the need for all of these skills to be available to benefit our patients and give them a chance of survival. Until someone comes up with research that proves these skills are unnecessary in pre-hospital care why limit their use? Let me give you an example why having both skills is needed. I teach these skills in cadaver labs. On more than one occasion I have found that the commercial needle cricothyrotomy devices out there today have limitations and may not always work. One particular cadaver lab comes to mind when the entire class (12 Paramedics with the Medical Director present) attempted a needle cricothyrotomy with a commercial kit on a very large cadaver. After everyone had an attempt, I made an incision over the trachea and looked at the crio/thyroid membrane. Not a single medic had successfully completed the needle cricothyrotomy. All of the attempts ended up in the subcutaneous tissue. I realize that most field paramedics would catch this problem, but what do you use if the surgical option is not available to you. The patient suffers because you are not allowed to do this procedure. Why should we limit the level of care we can provide to our patients? Isn't that why we are here for the patients! I feel the new national standard is a huge step back in its current format. It needs work, you cannot plug every system into a format like that. What works for a rural department would not work for Dallas Fire Rescue and vice versa. Before we jump into this we need to take a long hard look at this document and analyze the effect it is going to have on Texas and the rest of the country, then move forward. I am all for more education, I tell my students every time I hold a cadaver lab I learn something new about the human anatomy with every lab I teach. I enjoy learning and bettering myself to allow me to provide the best patient care possible. But I am convinced we need good data, research to move forward with this National Standard. I just don't see that component being used to approach this huge change in the way we provide patient care. EMS has always lacked in the research to backup our claims. I think now is the time to get that research done. Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private ambulance provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in Paramedicine. I can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the budget to continue the current level of care they offer under the current National SOP. What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to Paramedic school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there to have those 2 medics get a BA? Do I have the answers, no, just a few suggests and it will take someone a lot smarter than me to solve this quandary. I hope these folks step up and take up the challenge. Bernie Stafford EMTP The opinions expressed in the email are my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 > Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private ambulance > provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in Paramedicine. I > can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the budget > to continue the current level of care they offer under the current National > SOP. What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to Paramedic > school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there to have > those 2 medics get a BA? You missed the boat entirely. A current paramedic will still be a paramedic, just one level below the highest level of pre-hospital care. -aro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Ten years from now, new students will want to spend four years in school to become a paramedic if we get the recognition we deserve. Ultimately, it's the individual that pays for his/her education. -aro > Alfonso, > > That is true I may have missed the boat but I am not talking about 3 or 5 > years from now. What about 10 years from now when most of the folks > currently certified leave the business or retire. Then what? The issue is > still there, how do we pay for all this?? > > Bernie Stafford EMTP > > Re: National Standards (Long) > > > > > > > Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private ambulance > > provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in > Paramedicine. I > > can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the > budget > > to continue the current level of care they offer under the current > National > > SOP. What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to > Paramedic > > school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there > to have > > those 2 medics get a BA? > > You missed the boat entirely. A current paramedic will still be a > paramedic, just one level below the highest level of pre-hospital care. > > -aro > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 Sorry but no, a paramedic will be an intermediate, no matter what you call it... Larry > > You missed the boat entirely. A current paramedic will still be a > paramedic, just one level below the highest level of pre-hospital care. > > -aro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 >> You used the example of surgical and needle cricothyrotomy currently being used by some providers...Until someone comes up with research that proves these skills are unnecessary in pre-hospital care why limit their use? << You are kidding, right? Medical products, procedures and therapies are not routinely thrust upon the unsuspecting public until there is research to show they are ineffective (at least not in the non-EMS world). Usually, the intervention must be proven to be effective and safe before it is widely used. >> I teach these skills in cadaver labs... Not a single medic had successfully completed the needle cricothyrotomy. All of the attempts ended up in the subcutaneous tissue. << So, if you have paramedics who cannot recognize whether their percutaneous cricothyrotomy is successful, you should put a scalpel in their hands and turn them loose on the public? >> Why should we limit the level of care we can provide to our patients? Isn't that why we are here for the patients! << Bernie, regardless of where you draw the line, there will always be interventions that are beyond our reach. Should paramedics be allowed to perform a thoracotomy? What about burr holes? We are here for the patients, hopefully to stave off death for another day not to cause it. >> Before we jump into this we need to take a long hard look at this document and analyze the effect it is going to have on Texas and the rest of the country, then move forward. << I'm all in favor of that. But, let us analyze the REAL effects, not the ridiculous and blatantly false predictions that have been posted by the chicken little types. > But I am convinced we need good data, research to move forward with this National Standard. I just don't see that component being used to approach this huge change in the way we provide patient care. EMS has always lacked in the research to backup our claims. I think now is the time to get that research done. << I'm confused. You want data to drive the changes in the NSoP, but you teach procedures in the cadaver lab to paramedics that have no data supporting their use. >> Another huge issue, who pays??? You have worked for a private ambulance provider, can you see a private service paying for a BA in Paramedicine. I can't....even a department like Dallas Fire Rescue wouldn't have the budget to continue the current level of care they offer under the current National SOP. << As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form, very few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the same calls they are running today and would provide the same level of care. >> What about the rural volunteer department that sends a few to Paramedic school with grant money. Is that kind of funding going to be there to have those 2 medics get a BA? << They won't need to. They can send their folks to the same certificate paramedic programs that was attended by the others. Then, that whole gaggle of paramedics can go out and perform the same skills that you and I were taught so many years ago. Kenny Navarro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 No, you're wrong. Read the document again. -aro > > > > Sorry but no, a paramedic will be an intermediate, no matter what > you call it... > Larry > > > > > > You missed the boat entirely. A current paramedic will still be a > > paramedic, just one level below the highest level of pre-hospital > care. > > > > -aro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 >> Sorry but no, a paramedic will be an intermediate, no matter what you call it... << What? If a 2004 Intermediate can do A and B skills, and a 2004 paramedic can do A, B, C, and D skills, and a 2007 NSoP paramedics can do A, B, C, and D skills, how does that make him or her an Intermediate? The skill set of the proposed NSoP paramedic level is almost exactly like the skill set of the paramedic of today. Kenny Navarro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 >> Sorry but no, a paramedic will be an intermediate, no matter what you call it... << What? If a 2004 Intermediate can do A and B skills, and a 2004 paramedic can do A, B, C, and D skills, and a 2007 NSoP paramedics can do A, B, C, and D skills, how does that make him or her an Intermediate? The skill set of the proposed NSoP paramedic level is almost exactly like the skill set of the paramedic of today. Kenny Navarro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 >> Sorry but no, a paramedic will be an intermediate, no matter what you call it... << What? If a 2004 Intermediate can do A and B skills, and a 2004 paramedic can do A, B, C, and D skills, and a 2007 NSoP paramedics can do A, B, C, and D skills, how does that make him or her an Intermediate? The skill set of the proposed NSoP paramedic level is almost exactly like the skill set of the paramedic of today. Kenny Navarro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 > > >> Sorry but no, a paramedic will be an intermediate, no matter what > you call it... << > > > What? If a 2004 Intermediate can do A and B skills, and a 2004 > paramedic can do A, B, C, and D skills, and a 2007 NSoP paramedics > can do A, B, C, and D skills, how does that make him or her an > Intermediate? > > The skill set of the proposed NSoP paramedic level is almost exactly > like the skill set of the paramedic of today. > > Kenny Navarro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 > > >> Sorry but no, a paramedic will be an intermediate, no matter what > you call it... << > > > What? If a 2004 Intermediate can do A and B skills, and a 2004 > paramedic can do A, B, C, and D skills, and a 2007 NSoP paramedics > can do A, B, C, and D skills, how does that make him or her an > Intermediate? > > The skill set of the proposed NSoP paramedic level is almost exactly > like the skill set of the paramedic of today. > > Kenny Navarro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 6, 2004 Report Share Posted December 6, 2004 > > >> Sorry but no, a paramedic will be an intermediate, no matter what > you call it... << > > > What? If a 2004 Intermediate can do A and B skills, and a 2004 > paramedic can do A, B, C, and D skills, and a 2007 NSoP paramedics > can do A, B, C, and D skills, how does that make him or her an > Intermediate? > > The skill set of the proposed NSoP paramedic level is almost exactly > like the skill set of the paramedic of today. > > Kenny Navarro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 Excellent post Mr. Hatfield. You said it better than I ever could. -Alfonso R. Ochoa > Is it everyone's assumption that the only thing you learn in a degree > program is history and calculus? > > Try looking at the curriculum for most degree programs, it includes > biology to better understand A & P and the processes of the body, English > to better draft your narratives and correct grammatical errors which > lead you to look like an idiot if you ever present your PCR to a > courtroom, more time is spent on cardiology and pharmacology. Medical > terminology so we know what it is that is wrong with the patient instead > of asking the nurse what the big words mean, and college level math, > because G** knows that a large number of medics have no concept of how > to process the equation to reach the proper Dopamine drip rate, let > alone read a 12 lead without relying on the machines analysis. It even > includes public speaking so you know how to say what you need to say in > a relatively diplomatic fashion. > > If for some reason you don't think a plaintiff's attorney will rip you a > new one because you can't spell, you're dead wrong. One of the first > questions they asked me in a deposition was " aside from your entities CE > program, where else, and how often do you keep up with the industry > standards? " > > If you are getting all of your required CE from an online course, they > will reduce you to shreds before you leave the stand. That's not > education. Have I been in the witness stand? Nope, they decided at the > deposition that I really did know what I was talking about. I have > however, seen a few others who were not so lucky. > > Does it change the way we apply an oxygen mask? Nope. But is that all we > need to know? Nope. Does it mean that a degree replaces the necessity > and the value of experience? Absolutely not. Does it give us added > insight in the way we consider RSI and the medications that we use, and > what patients we use them for? Yep. Does it give us better insight on > how to begin a definitive care plan for patients we transport for > greater distances? You better believe it, if not, we are nothing but > cook book medics, treating our patients under the same theories that we > are dogging the nursing industry for. Understanding, 'truly' > understanding what effect our treatment has on a patient and the > underlying problem and or disease process, is what makes the difference. > > Let me add that I fought and argued for licensure, and I disagreed with > allowing grandfathering of certified medics. I think the increase in > education is the first step in raising our level of professionalism, and > I haven't even completed mine, so this is not about 'them (LP's and > educators) vs. us (certified medics)'. I still believe that there are > some incredibly talented medics that are not holders of degrees, and I > certainly don't mean to take away from them/us, but to insist that > higher education is worthless and has no place is ludicrous. > > Still working on my degree........ > > Mike > > > 'Tater Salad' Hatfield EMT-P > > " Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes. " > > EMStock 2005, it's never to early to plan!!! > www.emstock.com > www.temsf.org > > > > > > i am kinda on the fence on this topic. i agree that more academic > education would benefit everybody in one way or another, but when was > the last time you were taking care of a patient at your pucker factor > went up because you couldn't remember that the name of the 16th > president was abraham lincoln, or you didn't know that 3x^2+6y^2-5z^2=0 > is a formula used to make a 3D geometric formula. whoopty doo. i am here > to take care of patients, not quote encyclopedia britannica. when is the > last time you were asked that in a courtroom. teach me anatomy and > physiology, make sure i can do chem-cal, and create a narrative based on > patient care. all i need to know now is patient care at whatever lever i > choose, and maybe a little cherry on top. it may seem like " monkey see, > monkey do " , but that is why protocols are called guidelines, that way > you are still allowed to think. > > Hal, > I must respectfully disagree with you. > > If I were a frontier battlefield medic, I would rather work with > someone > who spent several years, and thousands of dollars learning that the > French accepted Napoleon as a their dictator two times, even though > they > had recently gone through a revolution against monarchy. That the LDU > algorithm will assist in determining the convexity of a matrix > function > in linear algebra. Or, that Shakespeare had to leave Stratford > to escape prosecution for poaching deer on the lands of Sir > Lucy. > > I can't believe that you would put the lives of our patients in the > hands of someone who spent only a thousand hours in class, followed by > years of experience, and thousands of patient contacts. And to top it > off, they try to maintain and expand their feeble skills and knowledge > by taking every silly alphabet soup course, all because they think > it's > better to be a " subject matter expert " than a " well rounded " > individual. > > > Jeez! > > I think you should shut down your progressive EMS system, and send > those > Volley's to college so they can be as good as us big city medics who > use > every advanced protocol known to mankind. Rrrright.. > > Love ya man :-) > > Lee Stanphill, > GED, EMT-P,CCEMTP, FPC, No-LP, CIA, NSA, FBI and probably a CABG in < > 10 > years. > > Lee@S... > > > > > : Working in a rural area doesn't make you anything except > further > away from everything else that is being required in the new NSOPs. > Normally in the rural areas, due to extended transport times, extended > distance from colleges and universities, we have to try our best to > get > the biggest bang for the buck. Also due to the fact that the rural > areas don't have near the population which translates into call > volume, > the rural systems are hanging on by the skin of the teeth financially. > We usually have a one on one relationship with our medical directors > (the entire system)and he or she is normally willing to extend > additional training and permission to do skills/procedures that in the > cities are normally reserved for the higher levels of certification. > The > NSOPs basically limit the Medical Directors authority to increase what > any particular level of certification medic can do. I think most of > us > in the rural areas, are just looking at this as another situation > where > the big city agencies are pushing for something that will negatively > affect us in the rural areas and because of our distance from the > formal > educations centers, it will bring an unneeded burden on us and our > systems. I think the biggest statement that should be made is Don't > Fix > What isn't Broken. BH > > > > > " And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's > right > for > Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. > The > SoP > document crams us all into the same cage. " > > The SoP has nothing to do with what area you work in, and it doesn't > cram anyone into a cage. Does working in a rural area somehow make > you > more qualified to use more invasive techniques in treating your > patient? > Did you go to a better Paramedic school than the DFR people did? If > not, than the urban/rural analysis has absolutely no relevance. > People > are arguing the fine points of this into oblivion. If you think that > surgical airways and RSI should be part of the Paramedic SoP, great! > I > do too. Let's work to change that. > > This document does concern the minimum amount of education required > before an individual can perform certain procedures. I happen to > think > that Paramedics should be allowed to everything that you are doing > today, Gene, and I hope the SoP will reflect that. But at what point > is > a seminar and medical director approval not good enough to perform > advanced skills? Should a Paramedic who didn't have Anatomy and > Physiology be allowed to suture wounds after some alphabet soup course > when they probably have very little knowledge of the integument? Can > a > workshop make you competent in > extensor tendon repair? DPL? Tube thoracostomy? Does the " Pelvic > Exams > for Lonely Practitioners " class make someone a competent gynecologist? > > It's akin to a call where you tell a child's mother that you are going > to suture a simple laceration on the kid's leg. When they ask if you > are a doctor, you tell them, " No, but I did go to class every Tuesday > and Thursday for a whole nine months and then I went to this class on > suturing for a week " . Yeah, and I stayed at a Holliday Inn Express > last > night. > > - Lancaster > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Re: National Standards (Long) > > > Kenny writes: > > " As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form, > very > few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the > same > calls they are running today and would provide the same level of > care. " > > And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right > for > Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. > The > SoP > document crams us all into the same cage. > > Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we > NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for > Dallas. > > GG > > > > E.(Gene) Gandy > POB 1651 > Albany, TX 76430 > wegandy1938@a... > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 Excellent post Mr. Hatfield. You said it better than I ever could. -Alfonso R. Ochoa > Is it everyone's assumption that the only thing you learn in a degree > program is history and calculus? > > Try looking at the curriculum for most degree programs, it includes > biology to better understand A & P and the processes of the body, English > to better draft your narratives and correct grammatical errors which > lead you to look like an idiot if you ever present your PCR to a > courtroom, more time is spent on cardiology and pharmacology. Medical > terminology so we know what it is that is wrong with the patient instead > of asking the nurse what the big words mean, and college level math, > because G** knows that a large number of medics have no concept of how > to process the equation to reach the proper Dopamine drip rate, let > alone read a 12 lead without relying on the machines analysis. It even > includes public speaking so you know how to say what you need to say in > a relatively diplomatic fashion. > > If for some reason you don't think a plaintiff's attorney will rip you a > new one because you can't spell, you're dead wrong. One of the first > questions they asked me in a deposition was " aside from your entities CE > program, where else, and how often do you keep up with the industry > standards? " > > If you are getting all of your required CE from an online course, they > will reduce you to shreds before you leave the stand. That's not > education. Have I been in the witness stand? Nope, they decided at the > deposition that I really did know what I was talking about. I have > however, seen a few others who were not so lucky. > > Does it change the way we apply an oxygen mask? Nope. But is that all we > need to know? Nope. Does it mean that a degree replaces the necessity > and the value of experience? Absolutely not. Does it give us added > insight in the way we consider RSI and the medications that we use, and > what patients we use them for? Yep. Does it give us better insight on > how to begin a definitive care plan for patients we transport for > greater distances? You better believe it, if not, we are nothing but > cook book medics, treating our patients under the same theories that we > are dogging the nursing industry for. Understanding, 'truly' > understanding what effect our treatment has on a patient and the > underlying problem and or disease process, is what makes the difference. > > Let me add that I fought and argued for licensure, and I disagreed with > allowing grandfathering of certified medics. I think the increase in > education is the first step in raising our level of professionalism, and > I haven't even completed mine, so this is not about 'them (LP's and > educators) vs. us (certified medics)'. I still believe that there are > some incredibly talented medics that are not holders of degrees, and I > certainly don't mean to take away from them/us, but to insist that > higher education is worthless and has no place is ludicrous. > > Still working on my degree........ > > Mike > > > 'Tater Salad' Hatfield EMT-P > > " Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes. " > > EMStock 2005, it's never to early to plan!!! > www.emstock.com > www.temsf.org > > > > > > i am kinda on the fence on this topic. i agree that more academic > education would benefit everybody in one way or another, but when was > the last time you were taking care of a patient at your pucker factor > went up because you couldn't remember that the name of the 16th > president was abraham lincoln, or you didn't know that 3x^2+6y^2-5z^2=0 > is a formula used to make a 3D geometric formula. whoopty doo. i am here > to take care of patients, not quote encyclopedia britannica. when is the > last time you were asked that in a courtroom. teach me anatomy and > physiology, make sure i can do chem-cal, and create a narrative based on > patient care. all i need to know now is patient care at whatever lever i > choose, and maybe a little cherry on top. it may seem like " monkey see, > monkey do " , but that is why protocols are called guidelines, that way > you are still allowed to think. > > Hal, > I must respectfully disagree with you. > > If I were a frontier battlefield medic, I would rather work with > someone > who spent several years, and thousands of dollars learning that the > French accepted Napoleon as a their dictator two times, even though > they > had recently gone through a revolution against monarchy. That the LDU > algorithm will assist in determining the convexity of a matrix > function > in linear algebra. Or, that Shakespeare had to leave Stratford > to escape prosecution for poaching deer on the lands of Sir > Lucy. > > I can't believe that you would put the lives of our patients in the > hands of someone who spent only a thousand hours in class, followed by > years of experience, and thousands of patient contacts. And to top it > off, they try to maintain and expand their feeble skills and knowledge > by taking every silly alphabet soup course, all because they think > it's > better to be a " subject matter expert " than a " well rounded " > individual. > > > Jeez! > > I think you should shut down your progressive EMS system, and send > those > Volley's to college so they can be as good as us big city medics who > use > every advanced protocol known to mankind. Rrrright.. > > Love ya man :-) > > Lee Stanphill, > GED, EMT-P,CCEMTP, FPC, No-LP, CIA, NSA, FBI and probably a CABG in < > 10 > years. > > Lee@S... > > > > > : Working in a rural area doesn't make you anything except > further > away from everything else that is being required in the new NSOPs. > Normally in the rural areas, due to extended transport times, extended > distance from colleges and universities, we have to try our best to > get > the biggest bang for the buck. Also due to the fact that the rural > areas don't have near the population which translates into call > volume, > the rural systems are hanging on by the skin of the teeth financially. > We usually have a one on one relationship with our medical directors > (the entire system)and he or she is normally willing to extend > additional training and permission to do skills/procedures that in the > cities are normally reserved for the higher levels of certification. > The > NSOPs basically limit the Medical Directors authority to increase what > any particular level of certification medic can do. I think most of > us > in the rural areas, are just looking at this as another situation > where > the big city agencies are pushing for something that will negatively > affect us in the rural areas and because of our distance from the > formal > educations centers, it will bring an unneeded burden on us and our > systems. I think the biggest statement that should be made is Don't > Fix > What isn't Broken. BH > > > > > " And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's > right > for > Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. > The > SoP > document crams us all into the same cage. " > > The SoP has nothing to do with what area you work in, and it doesn't > cram anyone into a cage. Does working in a rural area somehow make > you > more qualified to use more invasive techniques in treating your > patient? > Did you go to a better Paramedic school than the DFR people did? If > not, than the urban/rural analysis has absolutely no relevance. > People > are arguing the fine points of this into oblivion. If you think that > surgical airways and RSI should be part of the Paramedic SoP, great! > I > do too. Let's work to change that. > > This document does concern the minimum amount of education required > before an individual can perform certain procedures. I happen to > think > that Paramedics should be allowed to everything that you are doing > today, Gene, and I hope the SoP will reflect that. But at what point > is > a seminar and medical director approval not good enough to perform > advanced skills? Should a Paramedic who didn't have Anatomy and > Physiology be allowed to suture wounds after some alphabet soup course > when they probably have very little knowledge of the integument? Can > a > workshop make you competent in > extensor tendon repair? DPL? Tube thoracostomy? Does the " Pelvic > Exams > for Lonely Practitioners " class make someone a competent gynecologist? > > It's akin to a call where you tell a child's mother that you are going > to suture a simple laceration on the kid's leg. When they ask if you > are a doctor, you tell them, " No, but I did go to class every Tuesday > and Thursday for a whole nine months and then I went to this class on > suturing for a week " . Yeah, and I stayed at a Holliday Inn Express > last > night. > > - Lancaster > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Re: National Standards (Long) > > > Kenny writes: > > " As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form, > very > few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the > same > calls they are running today and would provide the same level of > care. " > > And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right > for > Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. > The > SoP > document crams us all into the same cage. > > Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we > NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for > Dallas. > > GG > > > > E.(Gene) Gandy > POB 1651 > Albany, TX 76430 > wegandy1938@a... > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2004 Report Share Posted December 12, 2004 Excellent post Mr. Hatfield. You said it better than I ever could. -Alfonso R. Ochoa > Is it everyone's assumption that the only thing you learn in a degree > program is history and calculus? > > Try looking at the curriculum for most degree programs, it includes > biology to better understand A & P and the processes of the body, English > to better draft your narratives and correct grammatical errors which > lead you to look like an idiot if you ever present your PCR to a > courtroom, more time is spent on cardiology and pharmacology. Medical > terminology so we know what it is that is wrong with the patient instead > of asking the nurse what the big words mean, and college level math, > because G** knows that a large number of medics have no concept of how > to process the equation to reach the proper Dopamine drip rate, let > alone read a 12 lead without relying on the machines analysis. It even > includes public speaking so you know how to say what you need to say in > a relatively diplomatic fashion. > > If for some reason you don't think a plaintiff's attorney will rip you a > new one because you can't spell, you're dead wrong. One of the first > questions they asked me in a deposition was " aside from your entities CE > program, where else, and how often do you keep up with the industry > standards? " > > If you are getting all of your required CE from an online course, they > will reduce you to shreds before you leave the stand. That's not > education. Have I been in the witness stand? Nope, they decided at the > deposition that I really did know what I was talking about. I have > however, seen a few others who were not so lucky. > > Does it change the way we apply an oxygen mask? Nope. But is that all we > need to know? Nope. Does it mean that a degree replaces the necessity > and the value of experience? Absolutely not. Does it give us added > insight in the way we consider RSI and the medications that we use, and > what patients we use them for? Yep. Does it give us better insight on > how to begin a definitive care plan for patients we transport for > greater distances? You better believe it, if not, we are nothing but > cook book medics, treating our patients under the same theories that we > are dogging the nursing industry for. Understanding, 'truly' > understanding what effect our treatment has on a patient and the > underlying problem and or disease process, is what makes the difference. > > Let me add that I fought and argued for licensure, and I disagreed with > allowing grandfathering of certified medics. I think the increase in > education is the first step in raising our level of professionalism, and > I haven't even completed mine, so this is not about 'them (LP's and > educators) vs. us (certified medics)'. I still believe that there are > some incredibly talented medics that are not holders of degrees, and I > certainly don't mean to take away from them/us, but to insist that > higher education is worthless and has no place is ludicrous. > > Still working on my degree........ > > Mike > > > 'Tater Salad' Hatfield EMT-P > > " Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditiones habes. " > > EMStock 2005, it's never to early to plan!!! > www.emstock.com > www.temsf.org > > > > > > i am kinda on the fence on this topic. i agree that more academic > education would benefit everybody in one way or another, but when was > the last time you were taking care of a patient at your pucker factor > went up because you couldn't remember that the name of the 16th > president was abraham lincoln, or you didn't know that 3x^2+6y^2-5z^2=0 > is a formula used to make a 3D geometric formula. whoopty doo. i am here > to take care of patients, not quote encyclopedia britannica. when is the > last time you were asked that in a courtroom. teach me anatomy and > physiology, make sure i can do chem-cal, and create a narrative based on > patient care. all i need to know now is patient care at whatever lever i > choose, and maybe a little cherry on top. it may seem like " monkey see, > monkey do " , but that is why protocols are called guidelines, that way > you are still allowed to think. > > Hal, > I must respectfully disagree with you. > > If I were a frontier battlefield medic, I would rather work with > someone > who spent several years, and thousands of dollars learning that the > French accepted Napoleon as a their dictator two times, even though > they > had recently gone through a revolution against monarchy. That the LDU > algorithm will assist in determining the convexity of a matrix > function > in linear algebra. Or, that Shakespeare had to leave Stratford > to escape prosecution for poaching deer on the lands of Sir > Lucy. > > I can't believe that you would put the lives of our patients in the > hands of someone who spent only a thousand hours in class, followed by > years of experience, and thousands of patient contacts. And to top it > off, they try to maintain and expand their feeble skills and knowledge > by taking every silly alphabet soup course, all because they think > it's > better to be a " subject matter expert " than a " well rounded " > individual. > > > Jeez! > > I think you should shut down your progressive EMS system, and send > those > Volley's to college so they can be as good as us big city medics who > use > every advanced protocol known to mankind. Rrrright.. > > Love ya man :-) > > Lee Stanphill, > GED, EMT-P,CCEMTP, FPC, No-LP, CIA, NSA, FBI and probably a CABG in < > 10 > years. > > Lee@S... > > > > > : Working in a rural area doesn't make you anything except > further > away from everything else that is being required in the new NSOPs. > Normally in the rural areas, due to extended transport times, extended > distance from colleges and universities, we have to try our best to > get > the biggest bang for the buck. Also due to the fact that the rural > areas don't have near the population which translates into call > volume, > the rural systems are hanging on by the skin of the teeth financially. > We usually have a one on one relationship with our medical directors > (the entire system)and he or she is normally willing to extend > additional training and permission to do skills/procedures that in the > cities are normally reserved for the higher levels of certification. > The > NSOPs basically limit the Medical Directors authority to increase what > any particular level of certification medic can do. I think most of > us > in the rural areas, are just looking at this as another situation > where > the big city agencies are pushing for something that will negatively > affect us in the rural areas and because of our distance from the > formal > educations centers, it will bring an unneeded burden on us and our > systems. I think the biggest statement that should be made is Don't > Fix > What isn't Broken. BH > > > > > " And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's > right > for > Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. > The > SoP > document crams us all into the same cage. " > > The SoP has nothing to do with what area you work in, and it doesn't > cram anyone into a cage. Does working in a rural area somehow make > you > more qualified to use more invasive techniques in treating your > patient? > Did you go to a better Paramedic school than the DFR people did? If > not, than the urban/rural analysis has absolutely no relevance. > People > are arguing the fine points of this into oblivion. If you think that > surgical airways and RSI should be part of the Paramedic SoP, great! > I > do too. Let's work to change that. > > This document does concern the minimum amount of education required > before an individual can perform certain procedures. I happen to > think > that Paramedics should be allowed to everything that you are doing > today, Gene, and I hope the SoP will reflect that. But at what point > is > a seminar and medical director approval not good enough to perform > advanced skills? Should a Paramedic who didn't have Anatomy and > Physiology be allowed to suture wounds after some alphabet soup course > when they probably have very little knowledge of the integument? Can > a > workshop make you competent in > extensor tendon repair? DPL? Tube thoracostomy? Does the " Pelvic > Exams > for Lonely Practitioners " class make someone a competent gynecologist? > > It's akin to a call where you tell a child's mother that you are going > to suture a simple laceration on the kid's leg. When they ask if you > are a doctor, you tell them, " No, but I did go to class every Tuesday > and Thursday for a whole nine months and then I went to this class on > suturing for a week " . Yeah, and I stayed at a Holliday Inn Express > last > night. > > - Lancaster > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re: Re: National Standards (Long) > > > Kenny writes: > > " As I have posted, if the NSoP passed tomorrow in its current form, > very > few systems would feel the effects. DFR would continue to run the > same > calls they are running today and would provide the same level of > care. " > > And that's the crux of the matter, isn't it? You see, what's right > for > Dallas Fire Rescue is NOT what's right for Shackelford County EMS. > The > SoP > document crams us all into the same cage. > > Let Dallas do what it wants to, but also let the rest of us do what we > NEED to do, and it's not the same thing necessarily that's right for > Dallas. > > GG > > > > E.(Gene) Gandy > POB 1651 > Albany, TX 76430 > wegandy1938@a... > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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