Re: An introduction (long)

[Guest guest]

Hey Matt

Welcome to the list. I too got sober in NY AA. I know where your

coming from and can relate. I wanted to stop attending meetings a

long time ago. Probably five or so years ago. I always had doubts

about certain aspects of AA, and was very fearful of actually doing

it, as you've expressed. It took all that time until just about four

months ago to finally do it. Thats after over 11 years of not

drinking in AA. I still choose to not drink. I am still not committed

entirely to never attend meetings again. Not because I am afraid that

I will get drunk but because most of my dearest friends are in AA.

But that is something I have to decide on my own in my own time.

Nevertheless, its been very enlightening to hear perspectives about AA

from non-AA's. I had been so accustomed to hearing only views shared

by AA supporters as if these views were fact. I hope this list helps

you find answers which feel right for you as it has helped me. Good

Luck to you.

Pat

> Hi all,

>

> I'm new to the group here, and my apologies for not

> having waited through the arrival of a few messages in

> order to grasp the protocol. I felt leaping in with a

> quick introduction might be as good of a way as any,

> of going about things, so here I ago.

>

> My name is not Gaston, but Matt, I will, as of next

> month, have been sober for two years in AA.

>

> You folks already know, all too well I'm sure, where I

> might be going with this, as my subscribing to this

> list at all is a telling gesture. So, to not waste

> bandwidth with notions and revelations, which I'm

> sure, in the context of this list, are redundant, I'll

> give the condensed version.

>

> Two years ago, years and years of a decidely excessive

> and lethal lifestyle began to catch up with me in all

> the traditional ways; my health was deteriorating

> rapidly, I'd lost all faith in everything and

> everybody, I had become just unbearable to be around,

> I was dishonest, selfish beyond compare, filthy,

> morose, angry, mean, a leech, a thief, a liar etc.,

> etc. I hated myself and wished, very much, that I

> might die. You know the drill.

>

> I knew the booze and drugs were killing me, but It

> seemed as though I simply could not stop; you know the

> story there, as well.

>

> I was familiar with AA, perhaps more so than the

> average citizen, due to my mother having been a member

> (she's since passed away), as well as one of my

> longest-standing and closest friends having gotten

> sober there. For the many years that drinking engulfed

> my life, and thoughts of stopping crossed my mind (as

> they will), I knew that AA was probably not for me. I

> also knew that I was entirely, seemingly hopelessly,

> dependent upon alcohol and drugs; and had long been

> led to believe that the likes of me simply did not

> stop without AA. So, like any good addict, I used this

> assinine logic to justify my pursuit of a bottom

> sufficient enough for my even beginning to tolerate

> entering the world of sloganeering, powerlessness and,

> well frankly, handing one's will over to God. I

> exaggerate the process of my bottoming out, and AAs

> involvement in my thinking during that time, slightly,

> but I was fairly certain, drunk or no, that my

> drinking problem and addictions had nothing whatsoever

> to do with my atheism; I resented the implication that

> they did, deeply. So AA remained out of the question.

>

> Anyway, as things got truly horrible, I got truly

> desperate. I knew AA was a place where people who

> drank like me, were hanging out, not drinking. I

> figured it would not hurt to be around such people.

> And after a couple of weeks of quietly, drunkenly,

> hanging around in the back of these rooms, I did, one

> night, manage to fall asleep having not had a drink

> that day. Right there was the first truly decent thing

> that AA, as it were, had given me. Commonsense that my

> drunken ass lacked at that time; to use their language

> " you don't have to drink today " . I'll concede that I

> was, at that point, too fucked up to realize that.

>

> So, drunks not drinking, regardless of anything else

> they might be saying or doing, did help me locate the

> inner fortitude to not drink; regardless of all the

> discomfort that caused me by that point. I haven't had

> a drink since.

>

> As time has passed, some of the basic AA, good, old

> fashioned, horse-sense, has benifited me; First and

> foremost, the irrefutably sound, 'don't drink, no

> matter what'. Plus, some of the push to try to be less

> judgemental, to stop passing blame, to try and keep

> busy and to be accountable for my actions, has helped

> me immeasurably (this, of course, when these ideas

> have been applied to my own perception of right and

> wrong, not my sponor's, or my homegroup's, or the Big

> Book's or whatever); however uncomfortable I still

> remain with the superstitious, hoodoo-voodoo, somewhat

> degrading, religious, ritualistic, methodology of it

> all; I have begun, of my own volition, but due to

> these surroundings, to try and behave in a manner I

> find more palatable for myself. To be able to look in

> the mirror and not cringe. To a large extent AA, or at

> least some of the better people in it, have helped me

> do that...

>

> That being said, I now feel that feeling of this

> being, in no way, the oft bandied about, fabled,

> " Bridge back to life " , at all.

>

> Here in New York, there seem to be two types of AA

> groups, religious, Big Book thumping fanatics, are

> one. And semi-hipster, New Agey, pop-psychology

> damaged idiots, are the other (Insane over

> generalization, but I'm trying to be quick about all

> this, I apologize). Either way, it's sick people

> insisting on, and indulging in, staying sick. Be they

> the " little sunbeams of Bill and Bob " , or the " Woe is

> me, my Mommy sucks " type.

>

> This assessment of course being en masse, as many of

> them are truly decent, nay good, people; a great many

> of whom I care for dearly... But they've no patience

> for my expressing my intellectual and emotional

> trepidations and apprehensions. Most of them, even the

> very best amongst them, are giiven to your standard

> " This too shall pass " or, the particularly offensive,

> " you think too much " .

>

> I've heard more than one, beaming, oldtimer proudly

> declare that he hadn't had " an original thought in

> over twenty years " . Being judged by your ability to

> mimick, quote and paraphrase, a 60 year old book, is

> not my idea of growth. I gain nothing from this; I can

> read the book myself, thank you. Tell me something

> new. You won't find new, not in AA, I'm realizing.

> They're proud of that fact, new seems to be shunned.

>

> I'm going to stop this babbling, and I apologize if

> this is not how I should introduce myself. This was

> typed quickly and confused. So I hope it made sense.

>

> I'm entertaining leaving AA, but of course I'm scared

> to, because everyday for two years I've had it shouted

> at me that the consequences of such an action are

> positively dire. I never want to drink again, at least

> I don't ever wnat to be where was two years ago; not

> drinking seems like a small price to pay in order to

> avoid that.

>

> 95% of my social life, these days, is tied up in AA

> and... aw, screw it, you guys know the whole story,

> I'm sure...

>

> I want out, but I'm overwhelmed with self doubt about

> it. The racket in my brain right now is something

> else. I know what's right for me, and what's not; but

> for two years I've volunteered to be told I don't know

> shit...

>

> I'm a 'show me' kind of guy. Anyone here who has left

> AA, and continued to lead a successful, non-drinking,

> life; please tell me all about it. I need, right now,

> to know you exist... if only for my own piece of mind.

> Even if I stay in AA, I need to know you exist. So I

> can tell a scrared, confused, newcomer who doesn't

> think that he/she can do AA, that he/she still doesn't

> have to drink... there are other ways.

>

> Thank you for tolerating my blather, and I look

> forward to reading this list.

>

> Sincerely,

> Matt

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Hey Matt

Welcome to the list. I too got sober in NY AA. I know where your

coming from and can relate. I wanted to stop attending meetings a

long time ago. Probably five or so years ago. I always had doubts

about certain aspects of AA, and was very fearful of actually doing

it, as you've expressed. It took all that time until just about four

months ago to finally do it. Thats after over 11 years of not

drinking in AA. I still choose to not drink. I am still not committed

entirely to never attend meetings again. Not because I am afraid that

I will get drunk but because most of my dearest friends are in AA.

But that is something I have to decide on my own in my own time.

Nevertheless, its been very enlightening to hear perspectives about AA

from non-AA's. I had been so accustomed to hearing only views shared

by AA supporters as if these views were fact. I hope this list helps

you find answers which feel right for you as it has helped me. Good

Luck to you.

Pat

> Hi all,

>

> I'm new to the group here, and my apologies for not

> having waited through the arrival of a few messages in

> order to grasp the protocol. I felt leaping in with a

> quick introduction might be as good of a way as any,

> of going about things, so here I ago.

>

> My name is not Gaston, but Matt, I will, as of next

> month, have been sober for two years in AA.

>

> You folks already know, all too well I'm sure, where I

> might be going with this, as my subscribing to this

> list at all is a telling gesture. So, to not waste

> bandwidth with notions and revelations, which I'm

> sure, in the context of this list, are redundant, I'll

> give the condensed version.

>

> Two years ago, years and years of a decidely excessive

> and lethal lifestyle began to catch up with me in all

> the traditional ways; my health was deteriorating

> rapidly, I'd lost all faith in everything and

> everybody, I had become just unbearable to be around,

> I was dishonest, selfish beyond compare, filthy,

> morose, angry, mean, a leech, a thief, a liar etc.,

> etc. I hated myself and wished, very much, that I

> might die. You know the drill.

>

> I knew the booze and drugs were killing me, but It

> seemed as though I simply could not stop; you know the

> story there, as well.

>

> I was familiar with AA, perhaps more so than the

> average citizen, due to my mother having been a member

> (she's since passed away), as well as one of my

> longest-standing and closest friends having gotten

> sober there. For the many years that drinking engulfed

> my life, and thoughts of stopping crossed my mind (as

> they will), I knew that AA was probably not for me. I

> also knew that I was entirely, seemingly hopelessly,

> dependent upon alcohol and drugs; and had long been

> led to believe that the likes of me simply did not

> stop without AA. So, like any good addict, I used this

> assinine logic to justify my pursuit of a bottom

> sufficient enough for my even beginning to tolerate

> entering the world of sloganeering, powerlessness and,

> well frankly, handing one's will over to God. I

> exaggerate the process of my bottoming out, and AAs

> involvement in my thinking during that time, slightly,

> but I was fairly certain, drunk or no, that my

> drinking problem and addictions had nothing whatsoever

> to do with my atheism; I resented the implication that

> they did, deeply. So AA remained out of the question.

>

> Anyway, as things got truly horrible, I got truly

> desperate. I knew AA was a place where people who

> drank like me, were hanging out, not drinking. I

> figured it would not hurt to be around such people.

> And after a couple of weeks of quietly, drunkenly,

> hanging around in the back of these rooms, I did, one

> night, manage to fall asleep having not had a drink

> that day. Right there was the first truly decent thing

> that AA, as it were, had given me. Commonsense that my

> drunken ass lacked at that time; to use their language

> " you don't have to drink today " . I'll concede that I

> was, at that point, too fucked up to realize that.

>

> So, drunks not drinking, regardless of anything else

> they might be saying or doing, did help me locate the

> inner fortitude to not drink; regardless of all the

> discomfort that caused me by that point. I haven't had

> a drink since.

>

> As time has passed, some of the basic AA, good, old

> fashioned, horse-sense, has benifited me; First and

> foremost, the irrefutably sound, 'don't drink, no

> matter what'. Plus, some of the push to try to be less

> judgemental, to stop passing blame, to try and keep

> busy and to be accountable for my actions, has helped

> me immeasurably (this, of course, when these ideas

> have been applied to my own perception of right and

> wrong, not my sponor's, or my homegroup's, or the Big

> Book's or whatever); however uncomfortable I still

> remain with the superstitious, hoodoo-voodoo, somewhat

> degrading, religious, ritualistic, methodology of it

> all; I have begun, of my own volition, but due to

> these surroundings, to try and behave in a manner I

> find more palatable for myself. To be able to look in

> the mirror and not cringe. To a large extent AA, or at

> least some of the better people in it, have helped me

> do that...

>

> That being said, I now feel that feeling of this

> being, in no way, the oft bandied about, fabled,

> " Bridge back to life " , at all.

>

> Here in New York, there seem to be two types of AA

> groups, religious, Big Book thumping fanatics, are

> one. And semi-hipster, New Agey, pop-psychology

> damaged idiots, are the other (Insane over

> generalization, but I'm trying to be quick about all

> this, I apologize). Either way, it's sick people

> insisting on, and indulging in, staying sick. Be they

> the " little sunbeams of Bill and Bob " , or the " Woe is

> me, my Mommy sucks " type.

>

> This assessment of course being en masse, as many of

> them are truly decent, nay good, people; a great many

> of whom I care for dearly... But they've no patience

> for my expressing my intellectual and emotional

> trepidations and apprehensions. Most of them, even the

> very best amongst them, are giiven to your standard

> " This too shall pass " or, the particularly offensive,

> " you think too much " .

>

> I've heard more than one, beaming, oldtimer proudly

> declare that he hadn't had " an original thought in

> over twenty years " . Being judged by your ability to

> mimick, quote and paraphrase, a 60 year old book, is

> not my idea of growth. I gain nothing from this; I can

> read the book myself, thank you. Tell me something

> new. You won't find new, not in AA, I'm realizing.

> They're proud of that fact, new seems to be shunned.

>

> I'm going to stop this babbling, and I apologize if

> this is not how I should introduce myself. This was

> typed quickly and confused. So I hope it made sense.

>

> I'm entertaining leaving AA, but of course I'm scared

> to, because everyday for two years I've had it shouted

> at me that the consequences of such an action are

> positively dire. I never want to drink again, at least

> I don't ever wnat to be where was two years ago; not

> drinking seems like a small price to pay in order to

> avoid that.

>

> 95% of my social life, these days, is tied up in AA

> and... aw, screw it, you guys know the whole story,

> I'm sure...

>

> I want out, but I'm overwhelmed with self doubt about

> it. The racket in my brain right now is something

> else. I know what's right for me, and what's not; but

> for two years I've volunteered to be told I don't know

> shit...

>

> I'm a 'show me' kind of guy. Anyone here who has left

> AA, and continued to lead a successful, non-drinking,

> life; please tell me all about it. I need, right now,

> to know you exist... if only for my own piece of mind.

> Even if I stay in AA, I need to know you exist. So I

> can tell a scrared, confused, newcomer who doesn't

> think that he/she can do AA, that he/she still doesn't

> have to drink... there are other ways.

>

> Thank you for tolerating my blather, and I look

> forward to reading this list.

>

> Sincerely,

> Matt

>

>

> __________________________________________________

>

[Guest guest]

Nice story . Glad things have been so positive for you and

glad to finally know a little about you. I don't get that privelage

on araa....

Pat

>

> >

> > 95% of my social life, these days, is tied up in AA

> > and... aw, screw it, you guys know the whole story,

> > I'm sure...

> >

> > I want out, but I'm overwhelmed with self doubt about

> > it. The racket in my brain right now is something

> > else. I know what's right for me, and what's not; but

> > for two years I've volunteered to be told I don't know

> > shit...

> >

> > I'm a 'show me' kind of guy. Anyone here who has left

> > AA, and continued to lead a successful, non-drinking,

> > life; please tell me all about it.

>

> Hi Matt

>

> Thanks for the intro. You didn't blather in the least.

>

> Yes, you can lead a sober life, more successful than ever, without

> AA. I did. During my five years in AA, I sounded good at meetings,

> had a passel of sponsees, and claimed " AA saved my life. " I visitied

> jails, the local recovery houses, and went to frequent meetings, and

> spent time listening to fifth steps and sobering up drunks. I still

> know the Big Book practically by heart (It comes in handy when it's

> necessary to prove to steppers that the AA program is religious)

>

> I was an AA success all right--a forty-year-old woman who had

> experienced several deranged sponsors, suffered ever worsening

bouts

> of depression (stinkin thinking & pity pot.) In between my glowing

> tales of AA rags-to-spiritual-riches at meetings, I made a meager

> living riding a bike to housecleaning jobs, lived in a decrepit old

> motor hotel complete with big black roaches, and typed poetry on a

> manual typewriter at a tiny kitchen table 40 feet away from a busy

> railroad track. When the train went by, the whole place shook.

>

> All of my friends were AA. After I left, I found out who my real

> friends were though. There were two left.

>

> I got treatment for depression first, and had to see a therapist for

> about a year. My life took off. But it took some work for awhile,

> Matt. However, it's five years later and I work at a job I love,

> producing and scheduling programs for a community TV station. I have

> a SO and we live in a decent place, I drive a car, am online, and

> compiled stories for a book that was recently published. I've

> produced dozens of programs, published about 30 poems, and maintain

> two websites. Its amazing what one can accomplish when one's time

> isn't tied up with running back and forth to AA activities being a

> good little parrot.

>

> Matt, you can stay sober without AA. Keep in mind that you can

always

> run back to a meeting if you have to. If you've any doubt about your

> ability to stay sober, go to the RR website and take their crash

> course. This will fortify you:

>

> http://www.rationalrecovery.org/Crash.html

>

> Here are some other techniques for staying sober:

>

> http://www.habitsmart.com/urges.html

>

>

> If anyone in AA is still your friend after you leave, then consider

> it a real friendship and concentrate on those frienships. If you

fill

> up your time with activities you love, you will automatically

attract

> other friends. Once you're moving in the world of normal people, you

> will begin considering yourself normal. You will be less angry

> because you will be spending time the way you wish, with people who

> aren't pissing you off with rudeness and verbal abuse.

>

> > to know you exist... if only for my own piece of mind.

> > Even if I stay in AA, I need to know you exist. So I

> > can tell a scrared, confused, newcomer who doesn't

> > think that he/she can do AA, that he/she still doesn't

> > have to drink... there are other ways.

>

> There are lots of other ways. In fact, most people who stay

> clean/sober after problem drinking or alcholism do so on their own.

> The AA population represents very few of these:

>

> http://www.aahorror.net/studies.htm#works

>

> Your post was enjoyable, Matt. Welcome to 12-Step Free.

>

> Best,

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/20/01 12:07:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,

joe-b@... writes:

<< joe-b@... (Joe B.) >>

Hi Joe, you've said so well what has been my experience. Even after AA, it's

thinking had me to some degree or another. It took trial and error to purge

myself learn I was in control. You know " I'm gonna try to stay sober " The

self-doubt and insecurity embedded in that statement came from my exposure to

AA. Thanks again. I'll sign off now and have lunch (not " try " to have

lunch)!

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/20/01 12:07:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,

joe-b@... writes:

<< joe-b@... (Joe B.) >>

Hi Joe, you've said so well what has been my experience. Even after AA, it's

thinking had me to some degree or another. It took trial and error to purge

myself learn I was in control. You know " I'm gonna try to stay sober " The

self-doubt and insecurity embedded in that statement came from my exposure to

AA. Thanks again. I'll sign off now and have lunch (not " try " to have

lunch)!

[Guest guest]

First, a note to everyone...when I started writing this, I didn't

intend it to be anywhere near as long as it turned out to be. Sorry

about that. And, while I've got everyone's attention - does this list

have an FAQ, or other intro materials I should read?

-----------------

Hi Matt,

I'm new here also (just joined yesterday), but I'm going to follow

your example and jump right in also. I think I may be one of the

examples you're looking for...To start, I'll tell you that, I'm pretty

anti-AA, and I've been quite successfully sober without it. I couldn't

write this honestly without some criticism of AA, but it's not intended

to start a heated argument, just to let you know where I'm coming from.

Anyway....

Three years ago, I drank like a fish. So, I naively figured that since

AA was so famous and had been around for so long, that they probably

knew what they were doing and it was as good a place to go as any.

Anyway, I joined a local group and did all the right things; I bought a

copy of the " Big Book " , attended two other groups to add a little

variety to the experience, met a lot of people, hooked up with one guy

who was particularly strong in his sobriety, level-headed, etc. and

asked him to be my sponsor. He and I talked every day, worked the

steps, etc. I tried to do 90 meetings in 90 days, didn't quite make

that, but came pretty close. In other words, as I said, I did all the

right things, and threw myself into the program as much as I was able.

But, I never felt totally comfortable with it. Part of this was due to

my atheism, and the overwhelmingly religious nature of AA. Whenever I

brought this issue up with anyone, the response was invariably the same:

" You should read 'We Agnostics' " ...such advice always being delivered

without further comment or elaboration, and with an air of smug

certainty. The people delivering such advice pretty clearly believed

that, as soon as I read Bill's Words On The Subject, that I would

automatically and naturally undergo some sort of epiphany, and all would

be revealed to me. I don't know if you've ever taken a close look at

that chapter, but really, what it amounts to is, " So you *think* you're

an atheist? Guess what? You're really not! You really *do* believe! "

How anyone could consider that to be a persuasive argument is still a

mystery to me.

I think I could have lived with that, however, if it weren't for the

other things...The incredibly dull meetings, which were rigidly

formulaic and unchanging...The usual introductory rituals, followed by

a drunkalogue, then " sharing " which was structured in such a way as to

discourage actual communication ( " crosstalk " ). Keep in mind, I was

attending three different groups, and still every meeting was the same.

To me, trying to do 90 of those meetings in 90 days was like going to

see the same really *bad* movie, day after day after day. To me, the

best part of AA was always the socializing before and after the meeting,

never the meeting itself.

Then, there was the incessant sloganeering. Catch phrases and mottos

are good to a point; in normal life, most proverbs contain a kernel of

truth within, and refer to that truth in a particularly eloquent way.

Plus, they provide a basis for shared experience. So far so good...but,

I began noticing the number of AA members who allowed the slogans to

take the place of actual *thought*, whose speech seemed to consist of

nothing but AA-isms.

Fortunately, I picked my sponsor well...he didn't parrot slogans, he

was very bright and level-headed, etc. When the issue of my atheism

came up, he and I got into some very interesting talks about religion,

philosophy, etc. And, when it became apparent to him that I was

disillusioned with AA, he suggested some non-12-Step alternatives. But

anyway...

About this time, I started noticing other things. It was, of course,

obvious when someone walked into a meeting while totally blasted. But,

I started noticing the shocking number of people who were apparently

sober, yet smelled of beer or gin, having just " had a couple " before the

meeting.

I also noticed that quite a few of the people who had attended these

groups when I started AA were no longer there. Some, of course, had

finished their court-ordered participation and simply left. But there

were quite a few who were not being forced to attend in any way, but

who just simply dropped out. Had they been cured? (Impossible,

according to AA) Or had they fallen off the wagon? (Inevitable,

according to AA) Or perhaps they had just sickened of the whole mess.

Whatever the reason, the group I started with and the group I ended my

year in AA with had hardly a face in common between them.

I think the ultimate absurdity came when, toward the end of that year,

I went to a big, city-wide AA meeting, in which a lot of groups came

together for one night. The featured speaker got up to deliver the

customary drunkalogue, and within a few minutes, I realized that this

was *truly* a drunkalogue, since he was nowhere near sober. He swayed

at the podium. He rambled incoherently. His narrative leaped back and

forth between different times and places with a logic that only he could

understand. He talked about " The Twelve Steps " , then talked about

something that had happened to him in 1968, then made a comment about

" The Eleven Steps " , after which he talked about something else. Then

he returned to the topic of the steps, except now they were " The

Thirteen Steps " . Most people were looking at the floor in mortified

horror; I could barely restrain my laughter. A great truth was dawning

upon me: This thing helps damned few people. My sponsor seemed to

have his life under control. A couple of other people I had met seemed

to as well. But for the rest, myself included, the norm in AA seemed

to be either brief periods of sobriety punctuated by frequent " relapses "

(for those of us who were really trying), or just going through the

motions and collecting slips (for those under court sentence). It had

been nearly a year by then, and the longest I had stayed sober at a

stretch was 43 days. And, from what I could see, AA really had very

little to do with staying sober in any case, but was only about

religious prosletyzing, self-abasement, and endless meetings.

At this point, my conversion was nearly complete. I was almost, but not

quite, ready to leave...but deep inside I had already given up on AA,

and was beginning to look on the whole thing with contempt and disgust.

At one meeting, when an old-timer asked me what my Higher Power was, I

told him that I had chosen Bullock as my Higher Power, that I

especially liked the eleventh step (getting closer to ), but I

didn't think it was worth working through the first ten steps to get

there, and in any case, would she really let me get closer to her if I

had to confess all my faults to her first? The old-timer took me

completely seriously and spouted off some nonsense from the Big Book.

Meanwhile, I could see my sponsor trying not to laugh too hard...

(I've often wondered about my sponsor. He seemed to be one of those

people who illustrated what the 12th step *should* be. Helping others

was clearly a source of strength to him. But I sometimes suspect that

he didn't take a lot of the AA stuff very seriously, and it wouldn't

surprise me if he ended up leaving at some point. Alas, I moved away,

and we lost touch...)

So, I left AA, drank intermittenly, then very soon more than

intermittently. I ended up on a protracted binge that landed me in

a rehab facility, which turned out to be a front for AA. Much to my

horror, when I told them about my history with AA (tried it, it didn't

work) and asked them to give me an alternative to AA, they refused to

even admit that alternatives existed. I asked nicely, then more firmly,

then angrily. Finally, two hours before my discharge, a nurse called

me aside, slipped me an article about Rational Recovery, and whispered,

" Please don't tell anyone I gave you this. "

Please don't tell anyone I gave you this...Wow. I'm grateful to that

nurse; she was obviously putting herself at some risk by doing what she

did. But, I still get mad at that facility sometimes. How dare they

suppress information that could help people? Didn't improve my opinion

of them...or of AA, since most of the nurses and couselors were AA

members. From what I've heard since then, this situation is hardly

unusual among treatment centers, and the " AA or nothing " attitude is the

rule rather than the exception.

As they say, the rest is history; I went to RR's website, took their

" crash course " , and have been dry for two years. I've considered buying

some of their books, out of curiousity, but have really felt no *need*

to. I do revisit their web site sometimes, partly for a booster shot

and partly just to see what changes have been made. But, I certainly

don't spend every day going to meetings, agonizing about whether I'll

drink again, etc. In RR, you make a decision to quit, and you just *do*

it. Then you get on with your life. Which is probably why you don't

see many RR discussion boards or chat rooms on the Internet - most of us

aren't preoccupied with substance abuse issues in the same way that

members of AA seem to be. As for me, I wouldn't be here at all, except

that recently, I saw a marriage of two people I've known since childhood

broked up by AA. It's caused me to revisit some of these issues, and to

start trying to " spread the word " a little.

One note: In RR, we don't count the time since the last drink the way

AA members do. As far as I'm concerned, I drank much too heavily at

one time, decided to quit, and now I don't drink anymore. End of story.

I'm not an " alcoholic " , and my family isn't " codependent " . I do keep

rough track of my sober time, because whenever I've talked to AA

members, that seems to be the first thing they want to know. But, to

be honest, I've forgotten the exact date of my last drink. I suppose I

could figure it out, just as I could figure out the exact date of my

high school graduation. But why bother?

This may seem shocking, the idea of simply quitting. It's a tough pill

to swallow...especially since it means that, because you don't have a

disease, and you do have the power to quit, you *are* responsible for

what you did while you were drunk, just as I am. Some AA-ers, after

years of being told that they're not responsible, since they have a

" disease " , can't take this, and run right back to AA after hearing about

RR. I won't lie - I'm convinced that AA doesn't do anyone any real

good, and I think the best thing you could do is leave. But if you do

stay with AA, I hope that's not the reason.

One thing that helped me discard the powerlessness concept was the

realization that I had been in control of my drinking all along. I

don't know all the details of your history, but I do know there were

plenty of times I stopped drinking at a certain point late at night,

because I knew I'd have to be sober in order to go to work the next day.

Or, when I quit drinking for a couple of days while relatives were

visiting. Or, quitting for a few hours so I'd be straight enough to

drive to the store. Et cetera, et cetera. And these were decisions I

successfully made to abstain (temporarily, I'll grant you) while I

was half-crocked. Imagine what I could do while I was sober!!

Someone said in an earlier message that a lot of people who have left AA

have replaced it with something else (church, etc). That sounds pretty

bogus to me, but if I wanted to put it in those terms, I'd say that I

replaced AA and alcohol with *life*. Plans, dreams, normal

relationships, goals and aspirations, good days, bad days, etc. Do I

still have the urge to drink? Occasionally, yeah. But nowhere near as

much as right after I left AA - the urges are occasional, brief, rather

weak, and easily dealt with. As for what else I do with my life, that's

not really the subject of this list. Let's just say that I'm a

reasonably happy, productive member of society who just doesn't drink

anymore.

I don't really have much more to say, because I don't have any complex

methods on how to stay sober or any RR war stories to pass on. RR is a

lot simpler than that. Stripped down to it's simplest form, you 1) make

a decision that you will *never* drink again, 2) learn a very simple

technique for identifying ways of thinking which work against staying

sober, and 3) get on with your life, applying that technique as

necessary to maintain your abstinence. I don't think RR is for

everyone - to me, there seem to be two prerequisites. First, a person

has to want a *permanent* answer to an alcohol abuse problem; not just,

" let me quit for a while, and when things have gotten a bit saner, I'll

start up again. " Second, a person has to see abstinence as the most

appropriate option for them - I've heard some speculation on whether

RR could be used to support a decision to moderate their drinking. I'll

leave that for more qualified people to thrash out, but my opinion, for

what it's worth, is, it probably couldn't be. From your letter, you

seem to fit both these qualifications perfectly. I'm not gonna claim

that RR is the best solution for everyone under every circumstance - AA

has been justifiably criticized for their " one-size-fits-all " stance,

and I don't think that logic can apply to RR any more than it can to AA.

But, I do think you should at least check out their web site. I will

warn you, though, that many of the people who have succeeded with RR

have some strong anti-AA attitudes (myself included), and that some of

the people who post at the RR website express themselves in the most

inflammatory way possible when it comes to AA. So, if you give them a

look, just be ready to look past the rhetoric and look for the

substance.

It looks

like we're both pretty long-winded people, so if you wanna continue any

or all of this conversation in private email, let me know. (Here, in

public, is fine with me too, assuming the other list members don't

object) Whatever you decide, best wishes to you.

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

First, a note to everyone...when I started writing this, I didn't

intend it to be anywhere near as long as it turned out to be. Sorry

about that. And, while I've got everyone's attention - does this list

have an FAQ, or other intro materials I should read?

-----------------

Hi Matt,

I'm new here also (just joined yesterday), but I'm going to follow

your example and jump right in also. I think I may be one of the

examples you're looking for...To start, I'll tell you that, I'm pretty

anti-AA, and I've been quite successfully sober without it. I couldn't

write this honestly without some criticism of AA, but it's not intended

to start a heated argument, just to let you know where I'm coming from.

Anyway....

Three years ago, I drank like a fish. So, I naively figured that since

AA was so famous and had been around for so long, that they probably

knew what they were doing and it was as good a place to go as any.

Anyway, I joined a local group and did all the right things; I bought a

copy of the " Big Book " , attended two other groups to add a little

variety to the experience, met a lot of people, hooked up with one guy

who was particularly strong in his sobriety, level-headed, etc. and

asked him to be my sponsor. He and I talked every day, worked the

steps, etc. I tried to do 90 meetings in 90 days, didn't quite make

that, but came pretty close. In other words, as I said, I did all the

right things, and threw myself into the program as much as I was able.

But, I never felt totally comfortable with it. Part of this was due to

my atheism, and the overwhelmingly religious nature of AA. Whenever I

brought this issue up with anyone, the response was invariably the same:

" You should read 'We Agnostics' " ...such advice always being delivered

without further comment or elaboration, and with an air of smug

certainty. The people delivering such advice pretty clearly believed

that, as soon as I read Bill's Words On The Subject, that I would

automatically and naturally undergo some sort of epiphany, and all would

be revealed to me. I don't know if you've ever taken a close look at

that chapter, but really, what it amounts to is, " So you *think* you're

an atheist? Guess what? You're really not! You really *do* believe! "

How anyone could consider that to be a persuasive argument is still a

mystery to me.

I think I could have lived with that, however, if it weren't for the

other things...The incredibly dull meetings, which were rigidly

formulaic and unchanging...The usual introductory rituals, followed by

a drunkalogue, then " sharing " which was structured in such a way as to

discourage actual communication ( " crosstalk " ). Keep in mind, I was

attending three different groups, and still every meeting was the same.

To me, trying to do 90 of those meetings in 90 days was like going to

see the same really *bad* movie, day after day after day. To me, the

best part of AA was always the socializing before and after the meeting,

never the meeting itself.

Then, there was the incessant sloganeering. Catch phrases and mottos

are good to a point; in normal life, most proverbs contain a kernel of

truth within, and refer to that truth in a particularly eloquent way.

Plus, they provide a basis for shared experience. So far so good...but,

I began noticing the number of AA members who allowed the slogans to

take the place of actual *thought*, whose speech seemed to consist of

nothing but AA-isms.

Fortunately, I picked my sponsor well...he didn't parrot slogans, he

was very bright and level-headed, etc. When the issue of my atheism

came up, he and I got into some very interesting talks about religion,

philosophy, etc. And, when it became apparent to him that I was

disillusioned with AA, he suggested some non-12-Step alternatives. But

anyway...

About this time, I started noticing other things. It was, of course,

obvious when someone walked into a meeting while totally blasted. But,

I started noticing the shocking number of people who were apparently

sober, yet smelled of beer or gin, having just " had a couple " before the

meeting.

I also noticed that quite a few of the people who had attended these

groups when I started AA were no longer there. Some, of course, had

finished their court-ordered participation and simply left. But there

were quite a few who were not being forced to attend in any way, but

who just simply dropped out. Had they been cured? (Impossible,

according to AA) Or had they fallen off the wagon? (Inevitable,

according to AA) Or perhaps they had just sickened of the whole mess.

Whatever the reason, the group I started with and the group I ended my

year in AA with had hardly a face in common between them.

I think the ultimate absurdity came when, toward the end of that year,

I went to a big, city-wide AA meeting, in which a lot of groups came

together for one night. The featured speaker got up to deliver the

customary drunkalogue, and within a few minutes, I realized that this

was *truly* a drunkalogue, since he was nowhere near sober. He swayed

at the podium. He rambled incoherently. His narrative leaped back and

forth between different times and places with a logic that only he could

understand. He talked about " The Twelve Steps " , then talked about

something that had happened to him in 1968, then made a comment about

" The Eleven Steps " , after which he talked about something else. Then

he returned to the topic of the steps, except now they were " The

Thirteen Steps " . Most people were looking at the floor in mortified

horror; I could barely restrain my laughter. A great truth was dawning

upon me: This thing helps damned few people. My sponsor seemed to

have his life under control. A couple of other people I had met seemed

to as well. But for the rest, myself included, the norm in AA seemed

to be either brief periods of sobriety punctuated by frequent " relapses "

(for those of us who were really trying), or just going through the

motions and collecting slips (for those under court sentence). It had

been nearly a year by then, and the longest I had stayed sober at a

stretch was 43 days. And, from what I could see, AA really had very

little to do with staying sober in any case, but was only about

religious prosletyzing, self-abasement, and endless meetings.

At this point, my conversion was nearly complete. I was almost, but not

quite, ready to leave...but deep inside I had already given up on AA,

and was beginning to look on the whole thing with contempt and disgust.

At one meeting, when an old-timer asked me what my Higher Power was, I

told him that I had chosen Bullock as my Higher Power, that I

especially liked the eleventh step (getting closer to ), but I

didn't think it was worth working through the first ten steps to get

there, and in any case, would she really let me get closer to her if I

had to confess all my faults to her first? The old-timer took me

completely seriously and spouted off some nonsense from the Big Book.

Meanwhile, I could see my sponsor trying not to laugh too hard...

(I've often wondered about my sponsor. He seemed to be one of those

people who illustrated what the 12th step *should* be. Helping others

was clearly a source of strength to him. But I sometimes suspect that

he didn't take a lot of the AA stuff very seriously, and it wouldn't

surprise me if he ended up leaving at some point. Alas, I moved away,

and we lost touch...)

So, I left AA, drank intermittenly, then very soon more than

intermittently. I ended up on a protracted binge that landed me in

a rehab facility, which turned out to be a front for AA. Much to my

horror, when I told them about my history with AA (tried it, it didn't

work) and asked them to give me an alternative to AA, they refused to

even admit that alternatives existed. I asked nicely, then more firmly,

then angrily. Finally, two hours before my discharge, a nurse called

me aside, slipped me an article about Rational Recovery, and whispered,

" Please don't tell anyone I gave you this. "

Please don't tell anyone I gave you this...Wow. I'm grateful to that

nurse; she was obviously putting herself at some risk by doing what she

did. But, I still get mad at that facility sometimes. How dare they

suppress information that could help people? Didn't improve my opinion

of them...or of AA, since most of the nurses and couselors were AA

members. From what I've heard since then, this situation is hardly

unusual among treatment centers, and the " AA or nothing " attitude is the

rule rather than the exception.

As they say, the rest is history; I went to RR's website, took their

" crash course " , and have been dry for two years. I've considered buying

some of their books, out of curiousity, but have really felt no *need*

to. I do revisit their web site sometimes, partly for a booster shot

and partly just to see what changes have been made. But, I certainly

don't spend every day going to meetings, agonizing about whether I'll

drink again, etc. In RR, you make a decision to quit, and you just *do*

it. Then you get on with your life. Which is probably why you don't

see many RR discussion boards or chat rooms on the Internet - most of us

aren't preoccupied with substance abuse issues in the same way that

members of AA seem to be. As for me, I wouldn't be here at all, except

that recently, I saw a marriage of two people I've known since childhood

broked up by AA. It's caused me to revisit some of these issues, and to

start trying to " spread the word " a little.

One note: In RR, we don't count the time since the last drink the way

AA members do. As far as I'm concerned, I drank much too heavily at

one time, decided to quit, and now I don't drink anymore. End of story.

I'm not an " alcoholic " , and my family isn't " codependent " . I do keep

rough track of my sober time, because whenever I've talked to AA

members, that seems to be the first thing they want to know. But, to

be honest, I've forgotten the exact date of my last drink. I suppose I

could figure it out, just as I could figure out the exact date of my

high school graduation. But why bother?

This may seem shocking, the idea of simply quitting. It's a tough pill

to swallow...especially since it means that, because you don't have a

disease, and you do have the power to quit, you *are* responsible for

what you did while you were drunk, just as I am. Some AA-ers, after

years of being told that they're not responsible, since they have a

" disease " , can't take this, and run right back to AA after hearing about

RR. I won't lie - I'm convinced that AA doesn't do anyone any real

good, and I think the best thing you could do is leave. But if you do

stay with AA, I hope that's not the reason.

One thing that helped me discard the powerlessness concept was the

realization that I had been in control of my drinking all along. I

don't know all the details of your history, but I do know there were

plenty of times I stopped drinking at a certain point late at night,

because I knew I'd have to be sober in order to go to work the next day.

Or, when I quit drinking for a couple of days while relatives were

visiting. Or, quitting for a few hours so I'd be straight enough to

drive to the store. Et cetera, et cetera. And these were decisions I

successfully made to abstain (temporarily, I'll grant you) while I

was half-crocked. Imagine what I could do while I was sober!!

Someone said in an earlier message that a lot of people who have left AA

have replaced it with something else (church, etc). That sounds pretty

bogus to me, but if I wanted to put it in those terms, I'd say that I

replaced AA and alcohol with *life*. Plans, dreams, normal

relationships, goals and aspirations, good days, bad days, etc. Do I

still have the urge to drink? Occasionally, yeah. But nowhere near as

much as right after I left AA - the urges are occasional, brief, rather

weak, and easily dealt with. As for what else I do with my life, that's

not really the subject of this list. Let's just say that I'm a

reasonably happy, productive member of society who just doesn't drink

anymore.

I don't really have much more to say, because I don't have any complex

methods on how to stay sober or any RR war stories to pass on. RR is a

lot simpler than that. Stripped down to it's simplest form, you 1) make

a decision that you will *never* drink again, 2) learn a very simple

technique for identifying ways of thinking which work against staying

sober, and 3) get on with your life, applying that technique as

necessary to maintain your abstinence. I don't think RR is for

everyone - to me, there seem to be two prerequisites. First, a person

has to want a *permanent* answer to an alcohol abuse problem; not just,

" let me quit for a while, and when things have gotten a bit saner, I'll

start up again. " Second, a person has to see abstinence as the most

appropriate option for them - I've heard some speculation on whether

RR could be used to support a decision to moderate their drinking. I'll

leave that for more qualified people to thrash out, but my opinion, for

what it's worth, is, it probably couldn't be. From your letter, you

seem to fit both these qualifications perfectly. I'm not gonna claim

that RR is the best solution for everyone under every circumstance - AA

has been justifiably criticized for their " one-size-fits-all " stance,

and I don't think that logic can apply to RR any more than it can to AA.

But, I do think you should at least check out their web site. I will

warn you, though, that many of the people who have succeeded with RR

have some strong anti-AA attitudes (myself included), and that some of

the people who post at the RR website express themselves in the most

inflammatory way possible when it comes to AA. So, if you give them a

look, just be ready to look past the rhetoric and look for the

substance.

It looks

like we're both pretty long-winded people, so if you wanna continue any

or all of this conversation in private email, let me know. (Here, in

public, is fine with me too, assuming the other list members don't

object) Whatever you decide, best wishes to you.

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

First, a note to everyone...when I started writing this, I didn't

intend it to be anywhere near as long as it turned out to be. Sorry

about that. And, while I've got everyone's attention - does this list

have an FAQ, or other intro materials I should read?

-----------------

Hi Matt,

I'm new here also (just joined yesterday), but I'm going to follow

your example and jump right in also. I think I may be one of the

examples you're looking for...To start, I'll tell you that, I'm pretty

anti-AA, and I've been quite successfully sober without it. I couldn't

write this honestly without some criticism of AA, but it's not intended

to start a heated argument, just to let you know where I'm coming from.

Anyway....

Three years ago, I drank like a fish. So, I naively figured that since

AA was so famous and had been around for so long, that they probably

knew what they were doing and it was as good a place to go as any.

Anyway, I joined a local group and did all the right things; I bought a

copy of the " Big Book " , attended two other groups to add a little

variety to the experience, met a lot of people, hooked up with one guy

who was particularly strong in his sobriety, level-headed, etc. and

asked him to be my sponsor. He and I talked every day, worked the

steps, etc. I tried to do 90 meetings in 90 days, didn't quite make

that, but came pretty close. In other words, as I said, I did all the

right things, and threw myself into the program as much as I was able.

But, I never felt totally comfortable with it. Part of this was due to

my atheism, and the overwhelmingly religious nature of AA. Whenever I

brought this issue up with anyone, the response was invariably the same:

" You should read 'We Agnostics' " ...such advice always being delivered

without further comment or elaboration, and with an air of smug

certainty. The people delivering such advice pretty clearly believed

that, as soon as I read Bill's Words On The Subject, that I would

automatically and naturally undergo some sort of epiphany, and all would

be revealed to me. I don't know if you've ever taken a close look at

that chapter, but really, what it amounts to is, " So you *think* you're

an atheist? Guess what? You're really not! You really *do* believe! "

How anyone could consider that to be a persuasive argument is still a

mystery to me.

I think I could have lived with that, however, if it weren't for the

other things...The incredibly dull meetings, which were rigidly

formulaic and unchanging...The usual introductory rituals, followed by

a drunkalogue, then " sharing " which was structured in such a way as to

discourage actual communication ( " crosstalk " ). Keep in mind, I was

attending three different groups, and still every meeting was the same.

To me, trying to do 90 of those meetings in 90 days was like going to

see the same really *bad* movie, day after day after day. To me, the

best part of AA was always the socializing before and after the meeting,

never the meeting itself.

Then, there was the incessant sloganeering. Catch phrases and mottos

are good to a point; in normal life, most proverbs contain a kernel of

truth within, and refer to that truth in a particularly eloquent way.

Plus, they provide a basis for shared experience. So far so good...but,

I began noticing the number of AA members who allowed the slogans to

take the place of actual *thought*, whose speech seemed to consist of

nothing but AA-isms.

Fortunately, I picked my sponsor well...he didn't parrot slogans, he

was very bright and level-headed, etc. When the issue of my atheism

came up, he and I got into some very interesting talks about religion,

philosophy, etc. And, when it became apparent to him that I was

disillusioned with AA, he suggested some non-12-Step alternatives. But

anyway...

About this time, I started noticing other things. It was, of course,

obvious when someone walked into a meeting while totally blasted. But,

I started noticing the shocking number of people who were apparently

sober, yet smelled of beer or gin, having just " had a couple " before the

meeting.

I also noticed that quite a few of the people who had attended these

groups when I started AA were no longer there. Some, of course, had

finished their court-ordered participation and simply left. But there

were quite a few who were not being forced to attend in any way, but

who just simply dropped out. Had they been cured? (Impossible,

according to AA) Or had they fallen off the wagon? (Inevitable,

according to AA) Or perhaps they had just sickened of the whole mess.

Whatever the reason, the group I started with and the group I ended my

year in AA with had hardly a face in common between them.

I think the ultimate absurdity came when, toward the end of that year,

I went to a big, city-wide AA meeting, in which a lot of groups came

together for one night. The featured speaker got up to deliver the

customary drunkalogue, and within a few minutes, I realized that this

was *truly* a drunkalogue, since he was nowhere near sober. He swayed

at the podium. He rambled incoherently. His narrative leaped back and

forth between different times and places with a logic that only he could

understand. He talked about " The Twelve Steps " , then talked about

something that had happened to him in 1968, then made a comment about

" The Eleven Steps " , after which he talked about something else. Then

he returned to the topic of the steps, except now they were " The

Thirteen Steps " . Most people were looking at the floor in mortified

horror; I could barely restrain my laughter. A great truth was dawning

upon me: This thing helps damned few people. My sponsor seemed to

have his life under control. A couple of other people I had met seemed

to as well. But for the rest, myself included, the norm in AA seemed

to be either brief periods of sobriety punctuated by frequent " relapses "

(for those of us who were really trying), or just going through the

motions and collecting slips (for those under court sentence). It had

been nearly a year by then, and the longest I had stayed sober at a

stretch was 43 days. And, from what I could see, AA really had very

little to do with staying sober in any case, but was only about

religious prosletyzing, self-abasement, and endless meetings.

At this point, my conversion was nearly complete. I was almost, but not

quite, ready to leave...but deep inside I had already given up on AA,

and was beginning to look on the whole thing with contempt and disgust.

At one meeting, when an old-timer asked me what my Higher Power was, I

told him that I had chosen Bullock as my Higher Power, that I

especially liked the eleventh step (getting closer to ), but I

didn't think it was worth working through the first ten steps to get

there, and in any case, would she really let me get closer to her if I

had to confess all my faults to her first? The old-timer took me

completely seriously and spouted off some nonsense from the Big Book.

Meanwhile, I could see my sponsor trying not to laugh too hard...

(I've often wondered about my sponsor. He seemed to be one of those

people who illustrated what the 12th step *should* be. Helping others

was clearly a source of strength to him. But I sometimes suspect that

he didn't take a lot of the AA stuff very seriously, and it wouldn't

surprise me if he ended up leaving at some point. Alas, I moved away,

and we lost touch...)

So, I left AA, drank intermittenly, then very soon more than

intermittently. I ended up on a protracted binge that landed me in

a rehab facility, which turned out to be a front for AA. Much to my

horror, when I told them about my history with AA (tried it, it didn't

work) and asked them to give me an alternative to AA, they refused to

even admit that alternatives existed. I asked nicely, then more firmly,

then angrily. Finally, two hours before my discharge, a nurse called

me aside, slipped me an article about Rational Recovery, and whispered,

" Please don't tell anyone I gave you this. "

Please don't tell anyone I gave you this...Wow. I'm grateful to that

nurse; she was obviously putting herself at some risk by doing what she

did. But, I still get mad at that facility sometimes. How dare they

suppress information that could help people? Didn't improve my opinion

of them...or of AA, since most of the nurses and couselors were AA

members. From what I've heard since then, this situation is hardly

unusual among treatment centers, and the " AA or nothing " attitude is the

rule rather than the exception.

As they say, the rest is history; I went to RR's website, took their

" crash course " , and have been dry for two years. I've considered buying

some of their books, out of curiousity, but have really felt no *need*

to. I do revisit their web site sometimes, partly for a booster shot

and partly just to see what changes have been made. But, I certainly

don't spend every day going to meetings, agonizing about whether I'll

drink again, etc. In RR, you make a decision to quit, and you just *do*

it. Then you get on with your life. Which is probably why you don't

see many RR discussion boards or chat rooms on the Internet - most of us

aren't preoccupied with substance abuse issues in the same way that

members of AA seem to be. As for me, I wouldn't be here at all, except

that recently, I saw a marriage of two people I've known since childhood

broked up by AA. It's caused me to revisit some of these issues, and to

start trying to " spread the word " a little.

One note: In RR, we don't count the time since the last drink the way

AA members do. As far as I'm concerned, I drank much too heavily at

one time, decided to quit, and now I don't drink anymore. End of story.

I'm not an " alcoholic " , and my family isn't " codependent " . I do keep

rough track of my sober time, because whenever I've talked to AA

members, that seems to be the first thing they want to know. But, to

be honest, I've forgotten the exact date of my last drink. I suppose I

could figure it out, just as I could figure out the exact date of my

high school graduation. But why bother?

This may seem shocking, the idea of simply quitting. It's a tough pill

to swallow...especially since it means that, because you don't have a

disease, and you do have the power to quit, you *are* responsible for

what you did while you were drunk, just as I am. Some AA-ers, after

years of being told that they're not responsible, since they have a

" disease " , can't take this, and run right back to AA after hearing about

RR. I won't lie - I'm convinced that AA doesn't do anyone any real

good, and I think the best thing you could do is leave. But if you do

stay with AA, I hope that's not the reason.

One thing that helped me discard the powerlessness concept was the

realization that I had been in control of my drinking all along. I

don't know all the details of your history, but I do know there were

plenty of times I stopped drinking at a certain point late at night,

because I knew I'd have to be sober in order to go to work the next day.

Or, when I quit drinking for a couple of days while relatives were

visiting. Or, quitting for a few hours so I'd be straight enough to

drive to the store. Et cetera, et cetera. And these were decisions I

successfully made to abstain (temporarily, I'll grant you) while I

was half-crocked. Imagine what I could do while I was sober!!

Someone said in an earlier message that a lot of people who have left AA

have replaced it with something else (church, etc). That sounds pretty

bogus to me, but if I wanted to put it in those terms, I'd say that I

replaced AA and alcohol with *life*. Plans, dreams, normal

relationships, goals and aspirations, good days, bad days, etc. Do I

still have the urge to drink? Occasionally, yeah. But nowhere near as

much as right after I left AA - the urges are occasional, brief, rather

weak, and easily dealt with. As for what else I do with my life, that's

not really the subject of this list. Let's just say that I'm a

reasonably happy, productive member of society who just doesn't drink

anymore.

I don't really have much more to say, because I don't have any complex

methods on how to stay sober or any RR war stories to pass on. RR is a

lot simpler than that. Stripped down to it's simplest form, you 1) make

a decision that you will *never* drink again, 2) learn a very simple

technique for identifying ways of thinking which work against staying

sober, and 3) get on with your life, applying that technique as

necessary to maintain your abstinence. I don't think RR is for

everyone - to me, there seem to be two prerequisites. First, a person

has to want a *permanent* answer to an alcohol abuse problem; not just,

" let me quit for a while, and when things have gotten a bit saner, I'll

start up again. " Second, a person has to see abstinence as the most

appropriate option for them - I've heard some speculation on whether

RR could be used to support a decision to moderate their drinking. I'll

leave that for more qualified people to thrash out, but my opinion, for

what it's worth, is, it probably couldn't be. From your letter, you

seem to fit both these qualifications perfectly. I'm not gonna claim

that RR is the best solution for everyone under every circumstance - AA

has been justifiably criticized for their " one-size-fits-all " stance,

and I don't think that logic can apply to RR any more than it can to AA.

But, I do think you should at least check out their web site. I will

warn you, though, that many of the people who have succeeded with RR

have some strong anti-AA attitudes (myself included), and that some of

the people who post at the RR website express themselves in the most

inflammatory way possible when it comes to AA. So, if you give them a

look, just be ready to look past the rhetoric and look for the

substance.

It looks

like we're both pretty long-winded people, so if you wanna continue any

or all of this conversation in private email, let me know. (Here, in

public, is fine with me too, assuming the other list members don't

object) Whatever you decide, best wishes to you.

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Sunday, February 18, 2001, 7:27:56 PM, you wrote:

> I'm a 'show me' kind of guy. Anyone here who has left

> AA, and continued to lead a successful, non-drinking,

> life; please tell me all about it. I need, right now,

> to know you exist... if only for my own piece of mind.

> Even if I stay in AA, I need to know you exist. So I

> can tell a scrared, confused, newcomer who doesn't

> think that he/she can do AA, that he/she still doesn't

> have to drink... there are other ways.

Hi!

I left (physically) about ten years ago, but kept some of the beliefs

alive for a while longer. The most insidious belief I got from AA (and

NA, which is even more attached to this idea) was that addiction is a

disease that I have for life. I realised various things weren't true.

(like " AA is the only way " and such), but I kept that disease idea for

some time. Eventually that went too, and what killed it was more up to

date and accurate information than is normally available to the

average AA member. That up to date information is freely available to

those who know of its existence, and if you follow the various links

that people suggest here you will find it. It is the antidote to the

idea that for various reasons you need to keep attending AA, or

" working the programme " or in whatever way stay a member of the hive.

One point I want to make from my own experience. After I stopped

going, and more noticeably after I stopped believing what I had been

programmed to believe there, I started to feel better- MUCH better. I

found real solutions to problems that I had previously only been able

to " turn over " and thus never really deal with. In retrospect I could

see that AA participation and belief in the various unproven and

superstitious hypotheses about spiritual bankruptcy, the disease of

addiction etc, had been affecting me negatively. And of course it was

hard to find much validation for such an idea in AA, where everything

is usually blamed on the non-existant " disease " , or on the person

themself being selfish/self-centred/in denial/on a dry drunk/not

keeping it simple/not calling their sponsor/not getting to enough

meetings/etc. Ironically these are the beliefs that undermine a

person's innate healthy functioning, self-reliance, confidence, and

sense of self!

I would not really recommend laidback AA meetings as a viable support

group for sobriety because even though they may ostensibly be less

programmed and may seem more psychologically healthy (sometimes) than

fundamentalists, the underlying belief system is still there and they

believe that they need meetings and that they need AA to stay sober.

And usually they believe they need some aspects of the

magical-superstitious belief system also. Whether it is the Xtian

fundamentalism mentality manifesting in the Big Book Thumper variant

or New-Agey whacked out spirituality, the idea is that for various

ill-defined reasons you need it to stay sober. And you don't.

You can leave and stay sober. But deprogramming yourself from what

they told you could be important. If you leave you need to be able to

truly believe that you are not sabotaging yourself (as they say you

will if you leave- note- dreadful warnings about what happens if you

leave is a CULT phenomenon). You can leave AA and get a life instead,

or leave AA and use modern recovery forums on the net, or even leave

AA and still have some sort of face-to-face meetings/support groups if

that is what you want. It really doesn't have to be AA. There is no

reason whatsoever why you should have to sit and listen to

newagey/fundy-tubthumper magical/superstitious interpretations of the

unviverse, your own behaviour, or anything else if it disagrees with

you.

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

Sunday, February 18, 2001, 7:27:56 PM, you wrote:

> I'm a 'show me' kind of guy. Anyone here who has left

> AA, and continued to lead a successful, non-drinking,

> life; please tell me all about it. I need, right now,

> to know you exist... if only for my own piece of mind.

> Even if I stay in AA, I need to know you exist. So I

> can tell a scrared, confused, newcomer who doesn't

> think that he/she can do AA, that he/she still doesn't

> have to drink... there are other ways.

Hi!

I left (physically) about ten years ago, but kept some of the beliefs

alive for a while longer. The most insidious belief I got from AA (and

NA, which is even more attached to this idea) was that addiction is a

disease that I have for life. I realised various things weren't true.

(like " AA is the only way " and such), but I kept that disease idea for

some time. Eventually that went too, and what killed it was more up to

date and accurate information than is normally available to the

average AA member. That up to date information is freely available to

those who know of its existence, and if you follow the various links

that people suggest here you will find it. It is the antidote to the

idea that for various reasons you need to keep attending AA, or

" working the programme " or in whatever way stay a member of the hive.

One point I want to make from my own experience. After I stopped

going, and more noticeably after I stopped believing what I had been

programmed to believe there, I started to feel better- MUCH better. I

found real solutions to problems that I had previously only been able

to " turn over " and thus never really deal with. In retrospect I could

see that AA participation and belief in the various unproven and

superstitious hypotheses about spiritual bankruptcy, the disease of

addiction etc, had been affecting me negatively. And of course it was

hard to find much validation for such an idea in AA, where everything

is usually blamed on the non-existant " disease " , or on the person

themself being selfish/self-centred/in denial/on a dry drunk/not

keeping it simple/not calling their sponsor/not getting to enough

meetings/etc. Ironically these are the beliefs that undermine a

person's innate healthy functioning, self-reliance, confidence, and

sense of self!

I would not really recommend laidback AA meetings as a viable support

group for sobriety because even though they may ostensibly be less

programmed and may seem more psychologically healthy (sometimes) than

fundamentalists, the underlying belief system is still there and they

believe that they need meetings and that they need AA to stay sober.

And usually they believe they need some aspects of the

magical-superstitious belief system also. Whether it is the Xtian

fundamentalism mentality manifesting in the Big Book Thumper variant

or New-Agey whacked out spirituality, the idea is that for various

ill-defined reasons you need it to stay sober. And you don't.

You can leave and stay sober. But deprogramming yourself from what

they told you could be important. If you leave you need to be able to

truly believe that you are not sabotaging yourself (as they say you

will if you leave- note- dreadful warnings about what happens if you

leave is a CULT phenomenon). You can leave AA and get a life instead,

or leave AA and use modern recovery forums on the net, or even leave

AA and still have some sort of face-to-face meetings/support groups if

that is what you want. It really doesn't have to be AA. There is no

reason whatsoever why you should have to sit and listen to

newagey/fundy-tubthumper magical/superstitious interpretations of the

unviverse, your own behaviour, or anything else if it disagrees with

you.

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

Sunday, February 18, 2001, 7:27:56 PM, you wrote:

> I'm a 'show me' kind of guy. Anyone here who has left

> AA, and continued to lead a successful, non-drinking,

> life; please tell me all about it. I need, right now,

> to know you exist... if only for my own piece of mind.

> Even if I stay in AA, I need to know you exist. So I

> can tell a scrared, confused, newcomer who doesn't

> think that he/she can do AA, that he/she still doesn't

> have to drink... there are other ways.

Hi!

I left (physically) about ten years ago, but kept some of the beliefs

alive for a while longer. The most insidious belief I got from AA (and

NA, which is even more attached to this idea) was that addiction is a

disease that I have for life. I realised various things weren't true.

(like " AA is the only way " and such), but I kept that disease idea for

some time. Eventually that went too, and what killed it was more up to

date and accurate information than is normally available to the

average AA member. That up to date information is freely available to

those who know of its existence, and if you follow the various links

that people suggest here you will find it. It is the antidote to the

idea that for various reasons you need to keep attending AA, or

" working the programme " or in whatever way stay a member of the hive.

One point I want to make from my own experience. After I stopped

going, and more noticeably after I stopped believing what I had been

programmed to believe there, I started to feel better- MUCH better. I

found real solutions to problems that I had previously only been able

to " turn over " and thus never really deal with. In retrospect I could

see that AA participation and belief in the various unproven and

superstitious hypotheses about spiritual bankruptcy, the disease of

addiction etc, had been affecting me negatively. And of course it was

hard to find much validation for such an idea in AA, where everything

is usually blamed on the non-existant " disease " , or on the person

themself being selfish/self-centred/in denial/on a dry drunk/not

keeping it simple/not calling their sponsor/not getting to enough

meetings/etc. Ironically these are the beliefs that undermine a

person's innate healthy functioning, self-reliance, confidence, and

sense of self!

I would not really recommend laidback AA meetings as a viable support

group for sobriety because even though they may ostensibly be less

programmed and may seem more psychologically healthy (sometimes) than

fundamentalists, the underlying belief system is still there and they

believe that they need meetings and that they need AA to stay sober.

And usually they believe they need some aspects of the

magical-superstitious belief system also. Whether it is the Xtian

fundamentalism mentality manifesting in the Big Book Thumper variant

or New-Agey whacked out spirituality, the idea is that for various

ill-defined reasons you need it to stay sober. And you don't.

You can leave and stay sober. But deprogramming yourself from what

they told you could be important. If you leave you need to be able to

truly believe that you are not sabotaging yourself (as they say you

will if you leave- note- dreadful warnings about what happens if you

leave is a CULT phenomenon). You can leave AA and get a life instead,

or leave AA and use modern recovery forums on the net, or even leave

AA and still have some sort of face-to-face meetings/support groups if

that is what you want. It really doesn't have to be AA. There is no

reason whatsoever why you should have to sit and listen to

newagey/fundy-tubthumper magical/superstitious interpretations of the

unviverse, your own behaviour, or anything else if it disagrees with

you.

Joe B.

[Guest guest]

no FAQ, but we do have a bookmarks and files page. both have

lots of good info

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/files

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/links

[Guest guest]

no FAQ, but we do have a bookmarks and files page. both have

lots of good info

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/files

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/links

[Guest guest]

no FAQ, but we do have a bookmarks and files page. both have

lots of good info

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/files

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/links