Re: An introduction (long)

February 18, 2001

At 11:27 AM 2/18/01 -0800, you wrote:

>I'm a 'show me' kind of guy. Anyone here who has left

>AA, and continued to lead a successful, non-drinking,

>life; please tell me all about it. I need, right now,

>to know you exist... if only for my own piece of mind.

>Even if I stay in AA, I need to know you exist. So I

>can tell a scrared, confused, newcomer who doesn't

>think that he/she can do AA, that he/she still doesn't

>have to drink... there are other ways.

Hi Matt; nice to meet you. I haven't got the time for a

long response right now, but I just wanted to say

" welcome " and to assure you that it *is* possible

not to drink without being in AA. There are quite

a few people on this list who do it every day.

Some people belong to alternative groups, such as

SMART or SOS. Others just don't drink, and prefer

getting on with their lives to being in a recovery group.

There are zillions of us out there.

More people quit drinking without AA than with it. You'd

never know it from listening to AA's propaganda, but

it's the statistical truth.

>Thank you for tolerating my blather, and I look

>forward to reading this list.

I look forward to hearing more of your experiences.

February 18, 2001

At 11:27 AM 2/18/01 -0800, you wrote:

>I'm a 'show me' kind of guy. Anyone here who has left

>AA, and continued to lead a successful, non-drinking,

>life; please tell me all about it. I need, right now,

>to know you exist... if only for my own piece of mind.

>Even if I stay in AA, I need to know you exist. So I

>can tell a scrared, confused, newcomer who doesn't

>think that he/she can do AA, that he/she still doesn't

>have to drink... there are other ways.

Hi Matt; nice to meet you. I haven't got the time for a

long response right now, but I just wanted to say

" welcome " and to assure you that it *is* possible

not to drink without being in AA. There are quite

a few people on this list who do it every day.

Some people belong to alternative groups, such as

SMART or SOS. Others just don't drink, and prefer

getting on with their lives to being in a recovery group.

There are zillions of us out there.

More people quit drinking without AA than with it. You'd

never know it from listening to AA's propaganda, but

it's the statistical truth.

>Thank you for tolerating my blather, and I look

>forward to reading this list.

I look forward to hearing more of your experiences.

February 18, 2001

At 11:27 AM 2/18/01 -0800, you wrote:

>I'm a 'show me' kind of guy. Anyone here who has left

>AA, and continued to lead a successful, non-drinking,

>life; please tell me all about it. I need, right now,

>to know you exist... if only for my own piece of mind.

>Even if I stay in AA, I need to know you exist. So I

>can tell a scrared, confused, newcomer who doesn't

>think that he/she can do AA, that he/she still doesn't

>have to drink... there are other ways.

Hi Matt; nice to meet you. I haven't got the time for a

long response right now, but I just wanted to say

" welcome " and to assure you that it *is* possible

not to drink without being in AA. There are quite

a few people on this list who do it every day.

Some people belong to alternative groups, such as

SMART or SOS. Others just don't drink, and prefer

getting on with their lives to being in a recovery group.

There are zillions of us out there.

More people quit drinking without AA than with it. You'd

never know it from listening to AA's propaganda, but

it's the statistical truth.

>Thank you for tolerating my blather, and I look

>forward to reading this list.

I look forward to hearing more of your experiences.

February 18, 2001

>

> 95% of my social life, these days, is tied up in AA

> and... aw, screw it, you guys know the whole story,

> I'm sure...

>

> I want out, but I'm overwhelmed with self doubt about

> it. The racket in my brain right now is something

> else. I know what's right for me, and what's not; but

> for two years I've volunteered to be told I don't know

> shit...

>

> I'm a 'show me' kind of guy. Anyone here who has left

> AA, and continued to lead a successful, non-drinking,

> life; please tell me all about it.

Hi Matt

Thanks for the intro. You didn't blather in the least.

Yes, you can lead a sober life, more successful than ever, without

AA. I did. During my five years in AA, I sounded good at meetings,

had a passel of sponsees, and claimed " AA saved my life. " I visitied

jails, the local recovery houses, and went to frequent meetings, and

spent time listening to fifth steps and sobering up drunks. I still

know the Big Book practically by heart (It comes in handy when it's

necessary to prove to steppers that the AA program is religious)

I was an AA success all right--a forty-year-old woman who had

experienced several deranged sponsors, suffered ever worsening bouts

of depression (stinkin thinking & pity pot.) In between my glowing

tales of AA rags-to-spiritual-riches at meetings, I made a meager

living riding a bike to housecleaning jobs, lived in a decrepit old

motor hotel complete with big black roaches, and typed poetry on a

manual typewriter at a tiny kitchen table 40 feet away from a busy

railroad track. When the train went by, the whole place shook.

All of my friends were AA. After I left, I found out who my real

friends were though. There were two left.

I got treatment for depression first, and had to see a therapist for

about a year. My life took off. But it took some work for awhile,

Matt. However, it's five years later and I work at a job I love,

producing and scheduling programs for a community TV station. I have

a SO and we live in a decent place, I drive a car, am online, and

compiled stories for a book that was recently published. I've

produced dozens of programs, published about 30 poems, and maintain

two websites. Its amazing what one can accomplish when one's time

isn't tied up with running back and forth to AA activities being a

good little parrot.

Matt, you can stay sober without AA. Keep in mind that you can always

run back to a meeting if you have to. If you've any doubt about your

ability to stay sober, go to the RR website and take their crash

course. This will fortify you:

http://www.rationalrecovery.org/Crash.html

Here are some other techniques for staying sober:

http://www.habitsmart.com/urges.html

If anyone in AA is still your friend after you leave, then consider

it a real friendship and concentrate on those frienships. If you fill

up your time with activities you love, you will automatically attract

other friends. Once you're moving in the world of normal people, you

will begin considering yourself normal. You will be less angry

because you will be spending time the way you wish, with people who

aren't pissing you off with rudeness and verbal abuse.

> to know you exist... if only for my own piece of mind.

> Even if I stay in AA, I need to know you exist. So I

> can tell a scrared, confused, newcomer who doesn't

> think that he/she can do AA, that he/she still doesn't

> have to drink... there are other ways.

There are lots of other ways. In fact, most people who stay

clean/sober after problem drinking or alcholism do so on their own.

The AA population represents very few of these:

http://www.aahorror.net/studies.htm#works

Your post was enjoyable, Matt. Welcome to 12-Step Free.

Best,

February 18, 2001

Matt-

Your problems are all based on the false belief that AA is the only way. It most certainly is not.

There you have it. It sounds as if, like me, you walked into meetings again and again because you believed it was the only way to a normal life. I left last November. It was the second best decision I've ever made - the best was marrying my wife. I feel great saying that because when I was in AA, asking my wife to marry me had to be second best because we all know that for an AA member, joining Alcoholics Anonymous is hands down the most important thing they've ever done. To think otherwise is to put yourself in a dangerous situation. Niwittery like this is the reason I left.

You can join me in frustration knowing that one trip to the bookstore could have made six years of a difference in my life, not in drinking time, but time spent in AA. It's not that I was never in the bookstores, quite the contrary. But my first attempt to seek help, three years before my last drink, instilled in me a belief that when alcoholics were finished drinking they joined AA. This "help" never suggested other options. What they did was drive into me knowledge about drinking so I'd know when it was time to quit and join AA. So when I decided to quit, that's exactly what I did. It never occurred to me to just quit. Alcoholics can't do that. Did you know that? I also didn't look into SMART Recovery, Rational Recovery, SOS, or any of the others. I simply took it as a matter of faith that AA was it.

Concerning addiction, treatment, and recovery, I have learned that a person who wants to take control of their own life had better do his homework.

I've got a web site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com where I talk about AA in more detail. See you around this list.

Nate

February 18, 2001

Matt-

Your problems are all based on the false belief that AA is the only way. It most certainly is not.

There you have it. It sounds as if, like me, you walked into meetings again and again because you believed it was the only way to a normal life. I left last November. It was the second best decision I've ever made - the best was marrying my wife. I feel great saying that because when I was in AA, asking my wife to marry me had to be second best because we all know that for an AA member, joining Alcoholics Anonymous is hands down the most important thing they've ever done. To think otherwise is to put yourself in a dangerous situation. Niwittery like this is the reason I left.

You can join me in frustration knowing that one trip to the bookstore could have made six years of a difference in my life, not in drinking time, but time spent in AA. It's not that I was never in the bookstores, quite the contrary. But my first attempt to seek help, three years before my last drink, instilled in me a belief that when alcoholics were finished drinking they joined AA. This "help" never suggested other options. What they did was drive into me knowledge about drinking so I'd know when it was time to quit and join AA. So when I decided to quit, that's exactly what I did. It never occurred to me to just quit. Alcoholics can't do that. Did you know that? I also didn't look into SMART Recovery, Rational Recovery, SOS, or any of the others. I simply took it as a matter of faith that AA was it.

Concerning addiction, treatment, and recovery, I have learned that a person who wants to take control of their own life had better do his homework.

I've got a web site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com where I talk about AA in more detail. See you around this list.

Nate

February 18, 2001

Matt-

Your problems are all based on the false belief that AA is the only way. It most certainly is not.

There you have it. It sounds as if, like me, you walked into meetings again and again because you believed it was the only way to a normal life. I left last November. It was the second best decision I've ever made - the best was marrying my wife. I feel great saying that because when I was in AA, asking my wife to marry me had to be second best because we all know that for an AA member, joining Alcoholics Anonymous is hands down the most important thing they've ever done. To think otherwise is to put yourself in a dangerous situation. Niwittery like this is the reason I left.

You can join me in frustration knowing that one trip to the bookstore could have made six years of a difference in my life, not in drinking time, but time spent in AA. It's not that I was never in the bookstores, quite the contrary. But my first attempt to seek help, three years before my last drink, instilled in me a belief that when alcoholics were finished drinking they joined AA. This "help" never suggested other options. What they did was drive into me knowledge about drinking so I'd know when it was time to quit and join AA. So when I decided to quit, that's exactly what I did. It never occurred to me to just quit. Alcoholics can't do that. Did you know that? I also didn't look into SMART Recovery, Rational Recovery, SOS, or any of the others. I simply took it as a matter of faith that AA was it.

Concerning addiction, treatment, and recovery, I have learned that a person who wants to take control of their own life had better do his homework.

I've got a web site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com where I talk about AA in more detail. See you around this list.

Nate

February 18, 2001

"The AA Box" ..... Nice. Don't know how I managed to miss that link before. Is it the first time you've posted it Nate?

-----Original Message-----From: Nate s Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 4:38 PMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: An introduction (long)

I've got a web site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com where I talk about AA in more detail. See you around this list.

Nate

February 18, 2001

"The AA Box" ..... Nice. Don't know how I managed to miss that link before. Is it the first time you've posted it Nate?

-----Original Message-----From: Nate s Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 4:38 PMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: An introduction (long)

I've got a web site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com where I talk about AA in more detail. See you around this list.

Nate

February 18, 2001

"The AA Box" ..... Nice. Don't know how I managed to miss that link before. Is it the first time you've posted it Nate?

-----Original Message-----From: Nate s Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 4:38 PMTo: 12-step-free Subject: Re: An introduction (long)

I've got a web site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com where I talk about AA in more detail. See you around this list.

Nate

February 18, 2001

At 06:25 PM 2/18/01 -0600, Arroyo wrote:

> " The AA Box " ..... Nice. Don't know how I managed to miss that link

before.

> Is it the first time you've posted it Nate?

I read over Nate's site a coule months ago, and I must say he has

some good original metaphors. Another one is " get rid of the coin "

under the link " What you won't find in AA " .

I think these metaphors work well for " deprogramming " , to help one

get out of the maze the same way they got in [gee, there's my own

metaphor] - AA uses metaphors as one of many techniques to " program "

people, to get its beliefs instilled in newcomers.

Sometimes the most powerful words are those that aren't spoken. I

attended Al-Anon after a relationship with an AA woman ended. Speaking

about this woman, an Alanon said " Alcoholism is a disease " . It didn't

seem logical that her or my negative actions were always caused by

" this disease " , especially since we both were sober a few years. If

the Alanon had not been so forceful about the " alcoholism is a disease "

thing, I would not have so quickly thought to question it.

But back to Nate's site, it should be obvious that the common business

slogan " thinking outside the box " is NOT an AA slogan.

When I first saw sobrietyfrontiers.com mentioned here I read a page

or so and remember thinking it was a little odd (I'm not sure why, maybe

the writing style or something). But since then I've read the whole site,

and as I say above, I like it. Also, he wrote most of this before reading

other anti-AA sites (or at least before subscribing to this list), so I

see it as more 'indpendent verification' of what we all know about AA.

I think we need more sites like this. Good work, Nate.

> Re: An introduction (long)

>

> I've got a web site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com where I talk about AA in

more detail. See you around this list.

>

> Nate

>

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

February 18, 2001

At 06:25 PM 2/18/01 -0600, Arroyo wrote:

> " The AA Box " ..... Nice. Don't know how I managed to miss that link

before.

> Is it the first time you've posted it Nate?

I read over Nate's site a coule months ago, and I must say he has

some good original metaphors. Another one is " get rid of the coin "

under the link " What you won't find in AA " .

I think these metaphors work well for " deprogramming " , to help one

get out of the maze the same way they got in [gee, there's my own

metaphor] - AA uses metaphors as one of many techniques to " program "

people, to get its beliefs instilled in newcomers.

Sometimes the most powerful words are those that aren't spoken. I

attended Al-Anon after a relationship with an AA woman ended. Speaking

about this woman, an Alanon said " Alcoholism is a disease " . It didn't

seem logical that her or my negative actions were always caused by

" this disease " , especially since we both were sober a few years. If

the Alanon had not been so forceful about the " alcoholism is a disease "

thing, I would not have so quickly thought to question it.

But back to Nate's site, it should be obvious that the common business

slogan " thinking outside the box " is NOT an AA slogan.

When I first saw sobrietyfrontiers.com mentioned here I read a page

or so and remember thinking it was a little odd (I'm not sure why, maybe

the writing style or something). But since then I've read the whole site,

and as I say above, I like it. Also, he wrote most of this before reading

other anti-AA sites (or at least before subscribing to this list), so I

see it as more 'indpendent verification' of what we all know about AA.

I think we need more sites like this. Good work, Nate.

> Re: An introduction (long)

>

> I've got a web site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com where I talk about AA in

more detail. See you around this list.

>

> Nate

>

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

February 18, 2001

" Gaston C. " wrote:

> I'm a 'show me' kind of guy. Anyone here who has left

> AA, and continued to lead a successful, non-drinking,

> life; please tell me all about it. I need, right now,

> to know you exist... if only for my own piece of mind.

> Even if I stay in AA, I need to know you exist. So I

> can tell a scrared, confused, newcomer who doesn't

> think that he/she can do AA, that he/she still doesn't

> have to drink... there are other ways.

>

> Thank you for tolerating my blather, and I look

> forward to reading this list.

>

> Sincerely,

> Matt

Hi Matt and list,

I understand your fear about leaving a group (some would say cult) that

seems so central to the new life you have built for your self. AA counts on

this fear to keep people from questioning the basic irrational principles you so

eloquently describe in your introduction post. Compounding this fear mongering

is the constant ascertain that you will go right back to your old behavior if

you leave the group. This is complete crap. You, and only you, can decide how

you are going to live your life. As you are becoming aware, the fact that you

stopped drinking destructively at the same time you started attending AA

meetings is mostly coincidental.

If it is of any help to you I have been abstinent for over 11 years, 7 of

them after leaving NA.

Peace,

February 18, 2001