Re: Rational Recovery needs to get real and be proactive

[Guest guest]

Dixie: That was a long post! I agree with some of your sentiments

about the RR site and also that it's too bad RR no longer has

meetings. However, and I may be wrong about this because I'm no

expert on RR, I think one reason Trimpey might have stopped the

meetings was out of a concern that RR might turn into a cult like AA.

Now, the good news is that SMART Recovery is out there. I really know

next to nothing about SMART as well, but from what I've heard, they

began as a result of an RR schism with Trimpey. As I understand it,

they use AVRT. And I believe they have meetings! Also, SOS has

meetings, and apparently new meetings are being added on a fairly

regular basis.

I've been meaning to tell you, since I believe you said at one point

you are living somewhere in Central Texas (where I used to live) that

a woman in Austin just started an intensive outpatient program that

actually offers a range of rehab approaches instead of just the

conventional " AA or nothing. " She hangs out in the Delphi Forums --

about.alcoholism and LifeRing Recovery (which is a kind of SOS). I

can probably tell you how to contact her if you're interested. She's

really a nice person. And if you're really fired up about making a

difference in recovery, I'd suggest you do what this woman did -- get

a counselor's license. Apparently it's ridiculously easy to do so,

which explains why there's so many Know-nothing Steppers working in

rehab clinics. The profession could use more people like you.

[Guest guest]

Dixie: That was a long post! I agree with some of your sentiments

about the RR site and also that it's too bad RR no longer has

meetings. However, and I may be wrong about this because I'm no

expert on RR, I think one reason Trimpey might have stopped the

meetings was out of a concern that RR might turn into a cult like AA.

Now, the good news is that SMART Recovery is out there. I really know

next to nothing about SMART as well, but from what I've heard, they

began as a result of an RR schism with Trimpey. As I understand it,

they use AVRT. And I believe they have meetings! Also, SOS has

meetings, and apparently new meetings are being added on a fairly

regular basis.

I've been meaning to tell you, since I believe you said at one point

you are living somewhere in Central Texas (where I used to live) that

a woman in Austin just started an intensive outpatient program that

actually offers a range of rehab approaches instead of just the

conventional " AA or nothing. " She hangs out in the Delphi Forums --

about.alcoholism and LifeRing Recovery (which is a kind of SOS). I

can probably tell you how to contact her if you're interested. She's

really a nice person. And if you're really fired up about making a

difference in recovery, I'd suggest you do what this woman did -- get

a counselor's license. Apparently it's ridiculously easy to do so,

which explains why there's so many Know-nothing Steppers working in

rehab clinics. The profession could use more people like you.

[Guest guest]

> I think one reason Trimpey might have stopped the

> meetings was out of a concern that RR might turn into a cult like

>AA.

....and I suspect it might turn into a commercial cult like Scientology

instead. Why have so many RR ppl got such a beef about " Recovery

Group Disorder " and such? Self-help AVRT means no cash $ for the

Trimpeys.

P.

[Guest guest]

> I think one reason Trimpey might have stopped the

> meetings was out of a concern that RR might turn into a cult like

>AA.

....and I suspect it might turn into a commercial cult like Scientology

instead. Why have so many RR ppl got such a beef about " Recovery

Group Disorder " and such? Self-help AVRT means no cash $ for the

Trimpeys.

P.

[Guest guest]

> I think one reason Trimpey might have stopped the

> meetings was out of a concern that RR might turn into a cult like

>AA.

....and I suspect it might turn into a commercial cult like Scientology

instead. Why have so many RR ppl got such a beef about " Recovery

Group Disorder " and such? Self-help AVRT means no cash $ for the

Trimpeys.

P.

[Guest guest]

An odd thing is that Dixie seems to think a lot of ppl here use RR to

drink moderately and get drunk a lot. I havent seen any evidence for

any of the 3 elements of this belief, and of course, moderation is

even more pathological to RR than it is to AA, that it also derides as

a " moderation " program.

Dixie, if you dont mind being on a list owned by a gun control type,

then if you want to leave then you could join 12-step questioners if

you havent already: Only 12 members to date so v low volume!

http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?SUBED1=12-step-questioners & A=1

P.

[Guest guest]

An odd thing is that Dixie seems to think a lot of ppl here use RR to

drink moderately and get drunk a lot. I havent seen any evidence for

any of the 3 elements of this belief, and of course, moderation is

even more pathological to RR than it is to AA, that it also derides as

a " moderation " program.

Dixie, if you dont mind being on a list owned by a gun control type,

then if you want to leave then you could join 12-step questioners if

you havent already: Only 12 members to date so v low volume!

http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?SUBED1=12-step-questioners & A=1

P.

[Guest guest]

An odd thing is that Dixie seems to think a lot of ppl here use RR to

drink moderately and get drunk a lot. I havent seen any evidence for

any of the 3 elements of this belief, and of course, moderation is

even more pathological to RR than it is to AA, that it also derides as

a " moderation " program.

Dixie, if you dont mind being on a list owned by a gun control type,

then if you want to leave then you could join 12-step questioners if

you havent already: Only 12 members to date so v low volume!

http://maelstrom.stjohns.edu/CGI/wa.exe?SUBED1=12-step-questioners & A=1

P.

[Guest guest]

At 11:52 AM 2/6/01 -0600, you wrote:

>I try to tell people about RR and combat the public's love affair with AA,

>but the more I read this list, the more I'm losing faith in RR.

Were you under the impression that this is an RR list?

>What I'm

>finding here are a bunch of whiners who have had their feelings hurt via

>AA, but who aren't really interested in actually doing something about the

>problem of AA besides complaining about it,

Actually, quite a few people on this list are active in various ways.

>and certainly don't seem to be

>interested in doing something about the problem of alcoholism. Alcoholism

>and drug abuse are real. I have lost over $3500 in the last 6 months of

>2000 because I tried to help alcoholics/addicts, and got taken advantage

>of. All they're interested in is their next fix.

Um . . . this really isn't shocking. I believe you are sincerely trying

to help these people, but this probably isn't the way.

> None of these people had

>computers--hell, they couldn't keep their phones turned on! They couldn't

>pay their rent! (which is where I lost over $2000, by giving people

>second,third, and fourth chances when they swore up and down they weren't

>using drugs, they were really trying to pay, if I'd just give them another

>chance...... it was all bullshit. They tore up the house which I had just

>put $5000 into, and left crack pipes in the seats of the cushions.) One guy

>sold the refrigerator out of the house he was living in, for drug money.

Just from reading this, these folks sound like they're more interesting

in continuing their lifestyle than in changing it. That's their choice.

You and I may think it's a dumb choice, but it is their choice to

make.

>And you think he's going to look up RR on the web?

*shrug* Up to him. Lots of homeless people use the Internet

terminals at public libraries. Many of them are pretty good

at it. Same goes for people who have a roof over their

heads but don't have home access for whatever reason.

> I had belongings stolen

>from me and sold for drugs. So what's RR going to do for those people? Is

>RR going into jails? Oops, I forgot--no meetings.

IIRC, RR offers materials to jails and prisons. The institutions

tend to reject such offers with suspicion, though.

>So what is RR doing for those people? Without meetings, how is RR getting

>the word out to them? Without meetings, what does RR expect the courts to

>do? Give folks a RR book and send them on their merry way, the quicker to

>go out and use again? Get real. I'd really like to put some faith in RR,

>but the more I learn, the more I'm thinking it's a crock.

Seems to me that part of the point of RR is that there are no

twelfth-steppers, no missionaries trying to " carry the

message. " It's not a religion; it's a simple idea which anyone

can apply.

My own approach was more similar to Stanton Peele's

Life Process Program than to RR's method. I think both

have merit, though, and they're not mutually exclusive.

RR is probably *more* applicable to the down-and-out

than the LPP method, since the latter suggests focusing

on the other things in your life which are important

whereas RR recommends stubbornly refusing to drink/use

drugs no matter what.

>You dislike AA?

>Come up with a viable alternative, one that's accessible, one that will

>help ALL alcoholics and addicts, not just the well to do who already have

>their lives together.

I often see homeless people on the subway; they like to ride around

on it to stay warm. The other day I saw one offer a bottle to

an acquaintance, who responded that he didn't drink any more.

The first man pushed, and the second man refused more

vehemently. He seemed more irritated than tempted, which

led me to believe that he'd been abstinent for some time.

At that point the first man began boasting about the size of

his liquor bottle, and things got a little weird. :-\ However,

my point is that it *is* possible for someone to just decide

to stop drinking in the RR-described manner. Yes, even

a homeless man.

I admire the man's dedication. I'm sure it's much more

difficult for someone in such straits than for me in my

cozy apartment.

>If you really want to spread the word about RR and stop the imposition of

>12 step programs on those who have committed drug/alcohol violations,

>you've got to quitcha bitchin' and do something about it.

I often ponder what the best things might be to do. I'm not

interested in pushing RR specifically; I'm more concerned with

getting rid of the harmful disease model of addiction. It's

slow going, though.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

My 2 cents also: having an open forum where people can " bitch " about

AA, in and of itself is " doing something. " AA has gotten to be the

power it has for one reason because all the people that it doesn't

work for are silenced or don't have a forum to express their views.

> Hello Dixie and others. I'm new to this chat stuff...I thought I'd

stick my

> 2 cents in. The reason RR no longer has groups (good decision in my

opinion)

> is because it conflicts with RR's philosphy. Sobriety is a personal

decision

> (supported by the skill of AVRT) to abstain. If a person has made

such a

> decision, why would that person need support?

>

> As to RR advocates being " minor league drunks " without war stories,

you're

> simply mistaken. Most people who seek RR came from AA and were

looking to

> escape or did not get get sober there. They also sold

refridgerators out of

> their homes, did jail for crimes they couldn't remember etc. I

don't care

> much for war stories but I lost more money monthly on my addiction

then your

> 6 month " helping " losses...and much more then money. I'd qualify

for any AA

> room as would the people I've met. You mentioned that RR does not

" help "

> drunks/addicts in the AA 12th step sense. You are correct. RR

isn't trying

> to save the world. RR is out there if one wants it. Besides, how

do you

> help a drunk who doesn't want to stop? I've met Jack and Lois

Trimpey. Both

> were very nice people and very helpful to me. Both are very

likeable,

> neither are right-wing nuts. They are freedom fighters and give to

that

> cause tirelessly. They speak out against AA, as do I and many

others because

> AA is dangerous...it kills people and is eating our culture at the

root. If

> you're interested in how it's doing that, that'll be another e-mail.

But the

> next time you read the paper and find that a murderer, or pedophile

or rapist

> is sent for " treatment " , ask yourself treatment for what, and where

did that

> thinking come from? I suppose in the not too distant future, there

will be a

> class action suit against General Motors for giving people the

" disease of

> driving " . Sounds crazy right? It is. As for me, AA killed my

spirit and

> nearly killed me. I'm glad I'm no longer there. My wife and I had

a couple

> we were friends with, both in AA. We used to discuss the merits of

our

> recovery methods over dinner...just small talk..I wasn't interested

in

> proving anything to them, and they knew better then trying to 12

step me.

> The wife in that couple died of an overdose. At the funeral I

mourned.

> After the funeral, I remember overhearing her program friends give

the same,

> tired useless explanations... " she didn't do a good fifth step " , " not

enough

> meetings " , " should've called her sponsor " AA itself was NEVER to

blame. The

> slogan I've kept from AA is " there but for the grace of God " . I say

it in

> silence, everytime I pass a meeting.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

My 2 cents also: having an open forum where people can " bitch " about

AA, in and of itself is " doing something. " AA has gotten to be the

power it has for one reason because all the people that it doesn't

work for are silenced or don't have a forum to express their views.

> Hello Dixie and others. I'm new to this chat stuff...I thought I'd

stick my

> 2 cents in. The reason RR no longer has groups (good decision in my

opinion)

> is because it conflicts with RR's philosphy. Sobriety is a personal

decision

> (supported by the skill of AVRT) to abstain. If a person has made

such a

> decision, why would that person need support?

>

> As to RR advocates being " minor league drunks " without war stories,

you're

> simply mistaken. Most people who seek RR came from AA and were

looking to

> escape or did not get get sober there. They also sold

refridgerators out of

> their homes, did jail for crimes they couldn't remember etc. I

don't care

> much for war stories but I lost more money monthly on my addiction

then your

> 6 month " helping " losses...and much more then money. I'd qualify

for any AA

> room as would the people I've met. You mentioned that RR does not

" help "

> drunks/addicts in the AA 12th step sense. You are correct. RR

isn't trying

> to save the world. RR is out there if one wants it. Besides, how

do you

> help a drunk who doesn't want to stop? I've met Jack and Lois

Trimpey. Both

> were very nice people and very helpful to me. Both are very

likeable,

> neither are right-wing nuts. They are freedom fighters and give to

that

> cause tirelessly. They speak out against AA, as do I and many

others because

> AA is dangerous...it kills people and is eating our culture at the

root. If

> you're interested in how it's doing that, that'll be another e-mail.

But the

> next time you read the paper and find that a murderer, or pedophile

or rapist

> is sent for " treatment " , ask yourself treatment for what, and where

did that

> thinking come from? I suppose in the not too distant future, there

will be a

> class action suit against General Motors for giving people the

" disease of

> driving " . Sounds crazy right? It is. As for me, AA killed my

spirit and

> nearly killed me. I'm glad I'm no longer there. My wife and I had

a couple

> we were friends with, both in AA. We used to discuss the merits of

our

> recovery methods over dinner...just small talk..I wasn't interested

in

> proving anything to them, and they knew better then trying to 12

step me.

> The wife in that couple died of an overdose. At the funeral I

mourned.

> After the funeral, I remember overhearing her program friends give

the same,

> tired useless explanations... " she didn't do a good fifth step " , " not

enough

> meetings " , " should've called her sponsor " AA itself was NEVER to

blame. The

> slogan I've kept from AA is " there but for the grace of God " . I say

it in

> silence, everytime I pass a meeting.

[Guest guest]

Hi,

My 2 cents also: having an open forum where people can " bitch " about

AA, in and of itself is " doing something. " AA has gotten to be the

power it has for one reason because all the people that it doesn't

work for are silenced or don't have a forum to express their views.

> Hello Dixie and others. I'm new to this chat stuff...I thought I'd

stick my

> 2 cents in. The reason RR no longer has groups (good decision in my

opinion)

> is because it conflicts with RR's philosphy. Sobriety is a personal

decision

> (supported by the skill of AVRT) to abstain. If a person has made

such a

> decision, why would that person need support?

>

> As to RR advocates being " minor league drunks " without war stories,

you're

> simply mistaken. Most people who seek RR came from AA and were

looking to

> escape or did not get get sober there. They also sold

refridgerators out of

> their homes, did jail for crimes they couldn't remember etc. I

don't care

> much for war stories but I lost more money monthly on my addiction

then your

> 6 month " helping " losses...and much more then money. I'd qualify

for any AA

> room as would the people I've met. You mentioned that RR does not

" help "

> drunks/addicts in the AA 12th step sense. You are correct. RR

isn't trying

> to save the world. RR is out there if one wants it. Besides, how

do you

> help a drunk who doesn't want to stop? I've met Jack and Lois

Trimpey. Both

> were very nice people and very helpful to me. Both are very

likeable,

> neither are right-wing nuts. They are freedom fighters and give to

that

> cause tirelessly. They speak out against AA, as do I and many

others because

> AA is dangerous...it kills people and is eating our culture at the

root. If

> you're interested in how it's doing that, that'll be another e-mail.

But the

> next time you read the paper and find that a murderer, or pedophile

or rapist

> is sent for " treatment " , ask yourself treatment for what, and where

did that

> thinking come from? I suppose in the not too distant future, there

will be a

> class action suit against General Motors for giving people the

" disease of

> driving " . Sounds crazy right? It is. As for me, AA killed my

spirit and

> nearly killed me. I'm glad I'm no longer there. My wife and I had

a couple

> we were friends with, both in AA. We used to discuss the merits of

our

> recovery methods over dinner...just small talk..I wasn't interested

in

> proving anything to them, and they knew better then trying to 12

step me.

> The wife in that couple died of an overdose. At the funeral I

mourned.

> After the funeral, I remember overhearing her program friends give

the same,

> tired useless explanations... " she didn't do a good fifth step " , " not

enough

> meetings " , " should've called her sponsor " AA itself was NEVER to

blame. The

> slogan I've kept from AA is " there but for the grace of God " . I say

it in

> silence, everytime I pass a meeting.

[Guest guest]

> What

I'm

> finding here are a bunch of whiners who have had their feelings hurt

via

> AA, but who aren't really interested in actually doing something

about the

> problem of AA besides complaining about it, and certainly don't seem

to be

> interested in doing something about the problem of alcoholism.

What I see here are people who have been harmed by 12 step ideology

and have the courage to speak up about it, even in the face of name

calling (eg, whiners). Talking about a problem is doing something

about it.

> If you really want to spread the word about RR and stop the

imposition of

> 12 step programs on those who have committed drug/alcohol

violations,

> you've got to quitcha bitchin' and do something about it.

I don't want to spread the word about RR. Do what you want, Dixie

(that is exactly what you have been doing), but don't expect any

support from me if you what you want to do includes calling me and

everyone else on this list nasty names. When you unjustly accuse and

call people names, you say nothing of substance about anyone on the

list except yourself.

judith

[Guest guest]

> What

I'm

> finding here are a bunch of whiners who have had their feelings hurt

via

> AA, but who aren't really interested in actually doing something

about the

> problem of AA besides complaining about it, and certainly don't seem

to be

> interested in doing something about the problem of alcoholism.

What I see here are people who have been harmed by 12 step ideology

and have the courage to speak up about it, even in the face of name

calling (eg, whiners). Talking about a problem is doing something

about it.

> If you really want to spread the word about RR and stop the

imposition of

> 12 step programs on those who have committed drug/alcohol

violations,

> you've got to quitcha bitchin' and do something about it.

I don't want to spread the word about RR. Do what you want, Dixie

(that is exactly what you have been doing), but don't expect any

support from me if you what you want to do includes calling me and

everyone else on this list nasty names. When you unjustly accuse and

call people names, you say nothing of substance about anyone on the

list except yourself.

judith

[Guest guest]

> And if you're really fired up about making a

> difference in recovery, I'd suggest you do what this woman did --

get

> a counselor's license. Apparently it's ridiculously easy to do so,

> which explains why there's so many Know-nothing Steppers working in

> rehab clinics. The profession could use more people like you.

You know, it's easy in MN too. It's like a 1-year program at a

technical college. They call it " addictionology. "

judith

[Guest guest]

>

> OMG I can see it. It would have been like the Platform/Operating

System

> wars Mac vs PC, OSX vs Micro$oft Windoze ver Linux ver unix ver

BeOS

>

> Micro$oft will of course be played by the villainous AA. It holds

treatment

> dominance and ruthlessly bludgeons/suppresses it's competition.

HEY mr beverage spew, you are just lucky I didn't have a mouthful o'

coffee my dang self!

judith

[Guest guest]

>

> >You can learn AVRT for free on his web site.

>

> IF you have access to his web site, IF you know how to use a computer, if,

> if, if. Meaning, fucking lot of good it does to a lot of alcoholics.

This was a response to an assertion that Trimpey had

stopped RR meetings because they weren't bringing in

the bucks. The point is that, if profit were his *only*

motive, the AVRT method would not be available for free.

I hope you don't expect Trimpey to give books away for

free. Those things aren't free to print, you know. AA

doesn't give books away for free either.

[snip]

> I'm trying to find a working solution for. People who have access to money,

> insurance, jobs, stability, the internet--heck, what do you think this

> group, and Buddy T.'s site, and many others are, other than a recovery

> self-help group?

This mailing list isn't a self-help group at all. It's a

discussion list.

I mean, look at us. Does all this arguing seem helpful to

you? :-)

If you want self-help groups available online, I'd second

the recommendation for SMART.

http://www.smartrecovery.org

They also have real-life meetings.

[snip more tales of misery]

Dixie, I do believe that you have worked with a lot of

desperate people. I am not questioning your word.

>

> >For most people, though -- people who have jobs and families

> >and reasonably normal lives -- hanging out with a " group of

> >drunks " may be a very bad move. Focus on the solution,

> >not the problem.

>

> Generally, I agree. But I think at first, when someone is just starting to

> admit/come to grips with their problem, that a support group can be

> helpful--just as people find the 'testimonials' on Trimpey's web site to be

> helpful.

Yup, I would agree with that.

It might be interesting to see what happened with a self-help

group that had an actual plan for weaning from meetings. E.g.,

something like " Once you've stopped drinking, we recommend

going to meetings for 8 more weeks. No more, because your

focus then should become getting on with your life. " The

obvious problem with that is that everybody's different, but

at least it would obviate the problem of people becoming

dependent on the group. It would also give people something

to work towards -- if they abstain, they don't have to go

to those dreary meetings any more!

> One thing I have heard repeatedly from those who say AA has helped them, is

> that it is helpful to be with people who know where you are, who've been

> there themselves, and have gotten through it. I would prefer AA to be more

> discussion-oriented, instead of testimonial-oriented, and of course I'd

> scrap the god bit and most of the 12 steps and the defeatist attitude.

> Which means, I'd alter AA to the point it was unrecognizable.

Do you realize that you just described SOS?

[Guest guest]

>

> >You can learn AVRT for free on his web site.

>

> IF you have access to his web site, IF you know how to use a computer, if,

> if, if. Meaning, fucking lot of good it does to a lot of alcoholics.

This was a response to an assertion that Trimpey had

stopped RR meetings because they weren't bringing in

the bucks. The point is that, if profit were his *only*

motive, the AVRT method would not be available for free.

I hope you don't expect Trimpey to give books away for

free. Those things aren't free to print, you know. AA

doesn't give books away for free either.

[snip]

> I'm trying to find a working solution for. People who have access to money,

> insurance, jobs, stability, the internet--heck, what do you think this

> group, and Buddy T.'s site, and many others are, other than a recovery

> self-help group?

This mailing list isn't a self-help group at all. It's a

discussion list.

I mean, look at us. Does all this arguing seem helpful to

you? :-)

If you want self-help groups available online, I'd second

the recommendation for SMART.

http://www.smartrecovery.org

They also have real-life meetings.

[snip more tales of misery]

Dixie, I do believe that you have worked with a lot of

desperate people. I am not questioning your word.

>

> >For most people, though -- people who have jobs and families

> >and reasonably normal lives -- hanging out with a " group of

> >drunks " may be a very bad move. Focus on the solution,

> >not the problem.

>

> Generally, I agree. But I think at first, when someone is just starting to

> admit/come to grips with their problem, that a support group can be

> helpful--just as people find the 'testimonials' on Trimpey's web site to be

> helpful.

Yup, I would agree with that.

It might be interesting to see what happened with a self-help

group that had an actual plan for weaning from meetings. E.g.,

something like " Once you've stopped drinking, we recommend

going to meetings for 8 more weeks. No more, because your

focus then should become getting on with your life. " The

obvious problem with that is that everybody's different, but

at least it would obviate the problem of people becoming

dependent on the group. It would also give people something

to work towards -- if they abstain, they don't have to go

to those dreary meetings any more!

> One thing I have heard repeatedly from those who say AA has helped them, is

> that it is helpful to be with people who know where you are, who've been

> there themselves, and have gotten through it. I would prefer AA to be more

> discussion-oriented, instead of testimonial-oriented, and of course I'd

> scrap the god bit and most of the 12 steps and the defeatist attitude.

> Which means, I'd alter AA to the point it was unrecognizable.

Do you realize that you just described SOS?

[Guest guest]

>

> >You can learn AVRT for free on his web site.

>

> IF you have access to his web site, IF you know how to use a computer, if,

> if, if. Meaning, fucking lot of good it does to a lot of alcoholics.

This was a response to an assertion that Trimpey had

stopped RR meetings because they weren't bringing in

the bucks. The point is that, if profit were his *only*

motive, the AVRT method would not be available for free.

I hope you don't expect Trimpey to give books away for

free. Those things aren't free to print, you know. AA

doesn't give books away for free either.

[snip]

> I'm trying to find a working solution for. People who have access to money,

> insurance, jobs, stability, the internet--heck, what do you think this

> group, and Buddy T.'s site, and many others are, other than a recovery

> self-help group?

This mailing list isn't a self-help group at all. It's a

discussion list.

I mean, look at us. Does all this arguing seem helpful to

you? :-)

If you want self-help groups available online, I'd second

the recommendation for SMART.

http://www.smartrecovery.org

They also have real-life meetings.

[snip more tales of misery]

Dixie, I do believe that you have worked with a lot of

desperate people. I am not questioning your word.

>

> >For most people, though -- people who have jobs and families

> >and reasonably normal lives -- hanging out with a " group of

> >drunks " may be a very bad move. Focus on the solution,

> >not the problem.

>

> Generally, I agree. But I think at first, when someone is just starting to

> admit/come to grips with their problem, that a support group can be

> helpful--just as people find the 'testimonials' on Trimpey's web site to be

> helpful.

Yup, I would agree with that.

It might be interesting to see what happened with a self-help

group that had an actual plan for weaning from meetings. E.g.,

something like " Once you've stopped drinking, we recommend

going to meetings for 8 more weeks. No more, because your

focus then should become getting on with your life. " The

obvious problem with that is that everybody's different, but

at least it would obviate the problem of people becoming

dependent on the group. It would also give people something

to work towards -- if they abstain, they don't have to go

to those dreary meetings any more!

> One thing I have heard repeatedly from those who say AA has helped them, is

> that it is helpful to be with people who know where you are, who've been

> there themselves, and have gotten through it. I would prefer AA to be more

> discussion-oriented, instead of testimonial-oriented, and of course I'd

> scrap the god bit and most of the 12 steps and the defeatist attitude.

> Which means, I'd alter AA to the point it was unrecognizable.

Do you realize that you just described SOS?

[Guest guest]

> > What

> I'm

> > finding here are a bunch of whiners who have had their feelings

hurt

> via

> > AA, but who aren't really interested in actually doing something

> about the

> > problem of AA besides complaining about it, and certainly don't

seem

> to be

> > interested in doing something about the problem of alcoholism.

>

> What I see here are people who have been harmed by 12 step ideology

> and have the courage to speak up about it, even in the face of name

> calling (eg, whiners). Talking about a problem is doing something

> about it.

YAY, thank you, Judith.

I think, just like there are stages a person goes through in making a

big change, there are also phases a societal change goes through. A

problem THIS big is not going to get solved or even DEFINED

overnight. There has to be some sort of critical mass of dissent

before the ideas can spread to the mainstream in a meaningful way.

Have you ever read a novel where the herione was in recovery from

recovery? Seen it in a movie? On TV? In the paper?

But, it is out there and getting bigger. There are several non-

fiction books addressing some of these issues now [thanks,

Fransway and contributors for the most entertaining one I've read]!.

You can't solve a problem without discussing it. You can't discuss

it if there is no one to share ideas with. It can't be done in a

vacuum.

[Guest guest]

> > What

> I'm

> > finding here are a bunch of whiners who have had their feelings

hurt

> via

> > AA, but who aren't really interested in actually doing something

> about the

> > problem of AA besides complaining about it, and certainly don't

seem

> to be

> > interested in doing something about the problem of alcoholism.

>

> What I see here are people who have been harmed by 12 step ideology

> and have the courage to speak up about it, even in the face of name

> calling (eg, whiners). Talking about a problem is doing something

> about it.

YAY, thank you, Judith.

I think, just like there are stages a person goes through in making a

big change, there are also phases a societal change goes through. A

problem THIS big is not going to get solved or even DEFINED

overnight. There has to be some sort of critical mass of dissent

before the ideas can spread to the mainstream in a meaningful way.

Have you ever read a novel where the herione was in recovery from

recovery? Seen it in a movie? On TV? In the paper?

But, it is out there and getting bigger. There are several non-

fiction books addressing some of these issues now [thanks,

Fransway and contributors for the most entertaining one I've read]!.

You can't solve a problem without discussing it. You can't discuss

it if there is no one to share ideas with. It can't be done in a

vacuum.

[Guest guest]

> > What

> I'm

> > finding here are a bunch of whiners who have had their feelings

hurt

> via

> > AA, but who aren't really interested in actually doing something

> about the

> > problem of AA besides complaining about it, and certainly don't

seem

> to be

> > interested in doing something about the problem of alcoholism.

>

> What I see here are people who have been harmed by 12 step ideology

> and have the courage to speak up about it, even in the face of name

> calling (eg, whiners). Talking about a problem is doing something

> about it.

YAY, thank you, Judith.

I think, just like there are stages a person goes through in making a

big change, there are also phases a societal change goes through. A

problem THIS big is not going to get solved or even DEFINED

overnight. There has to be some sort of critical mass of dissent

before the ideas can spread to the mainstream in a meaningful way.

Have you ever read a novel where the herione was in recovery from

recovery? Seen it in a movie? On TV? In the paper?

But, it is out there and getting bigger. There are several non-

fiction books addressing some of these issues now [thanks,

Fransway and contributors for the most entertaining one I've read]!.

You can't solve a problem without discussing it. You can't discuss

it if there is no one to share ideas with. It can't be done in a

vacuum.

[Guest guest]

>

> This was a response to an assertion that Trimpey had

> stopped RR meetings because they weren't bringing in

> the bucks. The point is that, if profit were his *only*

> motive, the AVRT method would not be available for free.

>

> I hope you don't expect Trimpey to give books away for

> free. Those things aren't free to print, you know. AA

> doesn't give books away for free either.

I wondered if someone would make this trite analysis. If you were

really getting the whole shooting match at the website for nothing,

who the hell would buy the books after visiting it? My local store

sells beans at 9p a can when you can pay 50p or more elsewhere. It's

what they call A LOSS LEADER - something you give away for nothing to

lure the punter in tpo purchase more products. It's just normal

capitalism. (Which is not meant to be a derogatory description).

P.

[Guest guest]

>

> This was a response to an assertion that Trimpey had

> stopped RR meetings because they weren't bringing in

> the bucks. The point is that, if profit were his *only*

> motive, the AVRT method would not be available for free.

>

> I hope you don't expect Trimpey to give books away for

> free. Those things aren't free to print, you know. AA

> doesn't give books away for free either.

I wondered if someone would make this trite analysis. If you were

really getting the whole shooting match at the website for nothing,

who the hell would buy the books after visiting it? My local store

sells beans at 9p a can when you can pay 50p or more elsewhere. It's

what they call A LOSS LEADER - something you give away for nothing to

lure the punter in tpo purchase more products. It's just normal

capitalism. (Which is not meant to be a derogatory description).

P.

[Guest guest]

>

> This was a response to an assertion that Trimpey had

> stopped RR meetings because they weren't bringing in

> the bucks. The point is that, if profit were his *only*

> motive, the AVRT method would not be available for free.

>

> I hope you don't expect Trimpey to give books away for

> free. Those things aren't free to print, you know. AA

> doesn't give books away for free either.

I wondered if someone would make this trite analysis. If you were

really getting the whole shooting match at the website for nothing,

who the hell would buy the books after visiting it? My local store

sells beans at 9p a can when you can pay 50p or more elsewhere. It's

what they call A LOSS LEADER - something you give away for nothing to

lure the punter in tpo purchase more products. It's just normal

capitalism. (Which is not meant to be a derogatory description).

P.