[Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey]

[Guest guest]

carol francey wrote:

> Hi ,

> Remember that AVRT was culled from the information from self recovered people.

Actually, AVRT was " culled " mostly from the work of Albert Ellis.

> So, I'll help you understand where you may not have done so.

I have met you a few times in person, and found you to be pleasant and

respectful. I'm a

little surprised at the slightly condescending tone of the statement above. You

assume that my

disagreements with you stem from my lack of understanding, graciously offering

to help me

" understand where you may not have done so " . Is it not possible that we differ

because I have

made different, but valid, assessments of the available information?

> > While I believe AVRT can have some practical uses, to sell it as a total

solution for

> addiction as Trimpey >seems to is a bit of an over simplification.

> The techniques make it easy to quit without feeling any deprivation. It is a

magic bullet for me

> and for hunundreds over the past five years who have quit and celebrated their

emergence into

> " citizen " life.

While I'm not saying your numbers are incorrect, you do have more than just

your anecdotal

experience to back up these numbers I trust. And just what exactly is " citizen "

life? ( Just an

aside, nothing to do with this discussion. Does one have to whisper " Rose bud "

at the moment of

death to truly be a " citizen " ?)

> >In the early period of my abstinence I would personify my urges to use in

order to carry out an

> internal dialog >with my " addict " .

>

> Remember: Don't have a dialog with your " Beast " . You are empowering it. Choose

what is in your

> best judgement for you and stick to the goal post there. Then you simply

" recognize " it by the

> imagery related to your substance of choice, the words it sends you saying you

need or want the

> substance and the feeling

> you have which when you think you may as well use are the feelings that

suddenly dissipate.

Firstly Carol, I don't have a " Beast " and never did. Secondly, it sounds as

if your giving me

advice on how to stay clean by telling me I should not " empower " my " Beast " .

While I'm sure you

are well intended, this seems somewhat condescending once again. I have not

struggled with my

decision to remain abstinent for many years now.

> >While I always knew I was talking to myself I found this " dialectic in my

head " useful in

> making better

> >decisions about using. I have some problems with demonizing the " addictive

voice " as the

> " Beast " .

>

> Many of the Dr.s who have come to the RR meetings I held confirmed that the

Beast was real. The

> " Beast " refers to an ACTUAL part of the self.

Well, now that the experts have spoken, the matter is settled.

> It is not a fairy tale. The lymbic system is the Beast.

No it is not, the limbic system is the limbic system.

> The desires for food, sex and oxygen lie there.

And elsewhere in the brain. We should keep in mind that the brain is just

beginning to be

understood. (No pun intended)

> The desire for drugs and alcohol also come from there.

Once again this is an over simplification of how human motivation operates.

" Desire " is not

just produced by the unconscious mind.

> It lies in the eternal now so that when you have the desire for the high you

are feeling the

> impulse of the primitive brain sending you a message that the labratory is

empty. The desire is

> felt as though oxygen deprivation has occured. It is an illusionary survival

need. The automonic

> nervous system is in the primitive animal brain. It wants to live...

" It " does not " want " anything, the " primitive " brain has no self awareness.

Well, none that we

are aware of. (Whoa, that's deep. Time to through me in the shallow waters.

You know, before I

get to deep.)

> ...and will use your thinking, feeling an imagery. It would indeed kill you in

the satiation of

> its desire. So why fratenize with the enemy?

The communication of " needs " generated in the R-complex (eating , sleeping,

sex, etc.) appears

to occur through a complex cascade of neurochemical releases and interactions

within the brain.

The ability of this system to mistakenly produce powerful " urges " to behave in a

self destructive

way is not evidence that the " primitive " brian should be imbued with character,

malicious or

otherwise. Again, I see no point in demonizing one of my biological subsystems

as the " enemy " .

Moreover, I think you missed my point here, I was not entering into a debate

on the function

of the R-complex within the addictive process, but rather objecting to the

cartoonish portrayal of

the complex issues surrounding the biochemical nature of " addiction " .

> >a little oafish, demonizing the subconscious workings of our minds does not

strike me

> completely healthy.

> See above. Again, it is not the subconscious but the appetite.

This seems to be a bit of a semantic issue here, but where does this

appetite come? From the

conscious mind?

> > I personally would have found the principals of AVRT wholly inadequate for

changing the

> things I had to in >order to free myself from the self destructive use of

drugs.

>

> It is up to each of us to change what we don't like about our lives. To get a

nutritionist, a

> dr., a relationship counsellor, music, change residences, divorse. Once the

decision is fully

> realized that there ain't going to be no more drinking or drugging the

movement to make things

> better naturally prevails.

That people's lives " naturally " improve once self destructive drug taking

has stopped is a

huge assumption. If you found abstinence was all you needed to start you on a

path of self

improvement, I'm very glad. It is, however, fairly arrogant to extrapolate from

your experience

(and that of the hundreds of others you say have benefited from the sole use of

AVRT) that the

several million " addicts " out there require only AVRT.

Without putting to fine a point on it, AVRT and RR are simply to sophomoric

for me. Mostly, I

object to the notion that AVRT is the ONLY thing ALL " addicts " will ever need to

end their self

destructive use of drugs.

Peace,

ps To whoever was lamenting the decline in the use of the word sophomoric, I

hope I made your day

better to some small degree.

[Guest guest]

Hi all,

I wasn't folowing this but after reading s response I feel a coment is in order.....

Even if all forms of alcohol addiction were biological in nature(which I don't believe they are), to give chacter traits and motivations to specific individual functions or aspects of the larger being is just plain silly. Who came up with this rocket science? "Ooh, my evil little limbic system, it's a beast, its gonna get me.". Well, ya know what? I hate my ass. It its very mean and sneaky. At the worst possiblie moments, it just sneaks up on me and makes me fart. It's out to get me and make me feel bad and question my own identity. Its very clever too, it makes me eat all these foods that make it really stinky and very embarassing... people are always looking at me..... Or maybe its my stomach .... or maybe I can blame my intestines .... or maybe I can blame my gall bladder or something......

Seriously, though, giving character and will, sentient motivation, to a part of our brains that we barely understand, to explain away our cognitive concious behavior is desperate grasping at anything, anything, to avoid responsibilty for your own behavior. The Son of Sam would have been proud of that one........."I hear voices in my head." "The neighbors dog told me to do it."

Wheeeew,

Steve

[Guest guest]

Actually you are right the lymbic system can only send a message. " You're

hungry, sexually interested, salivating for drugs, in need of air, etc. " YOU

have to decide to move your muscles to pinch your butt so you don't fart. You

have to decide to move your body to feed the appetite and you can decide to

not feed any appetite and feel the discomfort and still not feed it.

You haven't read the book.

Carol

12-step-freeegroups wrote:

>

> Hi all,

> I wasn't folowing this but after reading s response I feel a coment is

> in order.....

>

> Even if all forms of alcohol addiction were biological in nature(which I

> don't believe they are), to give chacter traits and motivations to specific

> individual functions or aspects of the larger being is just plain silly.

Who

> came up with this rocket science? " Ooh, my evil little limbic system, it's

a

> beast, its gonna get me. " .

> Well, ya know what? I hate my ass. It its very mean and sneaky. At the

worst

> possiblie moments, it just sneaks up on me and makes me fart. It's out to

get

> me and make me feel bad and question my own identity. Its very clever too,

it

> makes me eat all these foods that make it really stinky and very

> embarassing... people are always looking at me..... Or maybe its my stomach

> .... or maybe I can blame my intestines .... or maybe I can blame my gall

> bladder or something......

>

> Seriously, though,  giving character and will, sentient motivation, to a

part

> of our brains that we barely understand, to explain away our cognitive

> concious behavior is desperate grasping at anything, anything, to avoid

> responsibilty for your own behavior. The Son of Sam would have been proud

of

> that one......... " I hear voices in my head. " " The neighbors dog told me to

do

> it. "

>

> Wheeeew,

>

> Steve

>

__________________________________________________________________

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at

http://webmail.netscape.com/

[Guest guest]

Actually you are right the lymbic system can only send a message. " You're

hungry, sexually interested, salivating for drugs, in need of air, etc. " YOU

have to decide to move your muscles to pinch your butt so you don't fart. You

have to decide to move your body to feed the appetite and you can decide to

not feed any appetite and feel the discomfort and still not feed it.

You haven't read the book.

Carol

12-step-freeegroups wrote:

>

> Hi all,

> I wasn't folowing this but after reading s response I feel a coment is

> in order.....

>

> Even if all forms of alcohol addiction were biological in nature(which I

> don't believe they are), to give chacter traits and motivations to specific

> individual functions or aspects of the larger being is just plain silly.

Who

> came up with this rocket science? " Ooh, my evil little limbic system, it's

a

> beast, its gonna get me. " .

> Well, ya know what? I hate my ass. It its very mean and sneaky. At the

worst

> possiblie moments, it just sneaks up on me and makes me fart. It's out to

get

> me and make me feel bad and question my own identity. Its very clever too,

it

> makes me eat all these foods that make it really stinky and very

> embarassing... people are always looking at me..... Or maybe its my stomach

> .... or maybe I can blame my intestines .... or maybe I can blame my gall

> bladder or something......

>

> Seriously, though,  giving character and will, sentient motivation, to a

part

> of our brains that we barely understand, to explain away our cognitive

> concious behavior is desperate grasping at anything, anything, to avoid

> responsibilty for your own behavior. The Son of Sam would have been proud

of

> that one......... " I hear voices in my head. " " The neighbors dog told me to

do

> it. "

>

> Wheeeew,

>

> Steve

>

__________________________________________________________________

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at

http://webmail.netscape.com/

[Guest guest]

Actually you are right the lymbic system can only send a message. " You're

hungry, sexually interested, salivating for drugs, in need of air, etc. " YOU

have to decide to move your muscles to pinch your butt so you don't fart. You

have to decide to move your body to feed the appetite and you can decide to

not feed any appetite and feel the discomfort and still not feed it.

You haven't read the book.

Carol

12-step-freeegroups wrote:

>

> Hi all,

> I wasn't folowing this but after reading s response I feel a coment is

> in order.....

>

> Even if all forms of alcohol addiction were biological in nature(which I

> don't believe they are), to give chacter traits and motivations to specific

> individual functions or aspects of the larger being is just plain silly.

Who

> came up with this rocket science? " Ooh, my evil little limbic system, it's

a

> beast, its gonna get me. " .

> Well, ya know what? I hate my ass. It its very mean and sneaky. At the

worst

> possiblie moments, it just sneaks up on me and makes me fart. It's out to

get

> me and make me feel bad and question my own identity. Its very clever too,

it

> makes me eat all these foods that make it really stinky and very

> embarassing... people are always looking at me..... Or maybe its my stomach

> .... or maybe I can blame my intestines .... or maybe I can blame my gall

> bladder or something......

>

> Seriously, though,  giving character and will, sentient motivation, to a

part

> of our brains that we barely understand, to explain away our cognitive

> concious behavior is desperate grasping at anything, anything, to avoid

> responsibilty for your own behavior. The Son of Sam would have been proud

of

> that one......... " I hear voices in my head. " " The neighbors dog told me to

do

> it. "

>

> Wheeeew,

>

> Steve

>

__________________________________________________________________

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Webmail account today at

http://webmail.netscape.com/

[Guest guest]

I don't feel any need to read the book ......... My brain works just fine

[Guest guest]

Hi All ..... ,

I really can't see how my comments can be misunderstood or one could derive a different meening or lack of continuity from one paragraph to another.......

To clarify: I think "the beast" type of approach is a load of convenient escapism. You can blame anyone or anything, any little part of your brain for your behavior but YOU lifted yer ass up outa that chair, walked to where-ever, picked up that substance and put it into yer body. Unless you have a brain tumor the size of a grapefruit you alone are responsible. What, were ya sleepwalking? Oh, so now there are consequences, now is the time to play the blame/excuse lottery, "Oh, it's my damn limbic system." Gimme a break!

I might as well blame my fingernails for making me scratch myself. Then once you have the excuse for your behavior, you can play the "treatment" lottery till ya find something that fits whatever band wagon you can get on that doesn't have a mirror involved in the process.

Someday I'm gonna start my own group ..... It'll be called the Big Stick. Whenever anyone starts some behavior that they dont like, has consequences, or just makes them fell a sense of powerlessness, all ya gotta do is show up at a meeting and I'll hit ya in the head with a big stick. Keep coming back! ......When ya figure out that ya don't wanna be hit in the head anymore, you will either quit what yer doing or move down the self help lottery to find someone who will, lie and coddle ya into believing in them and thier ego...... Oh, and it will only cost 5 bucks a whack. I wouldn't wanna be acused of proffiteering.

Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi All ..... ,

I really can't see how my comments can be misunderstood or one could derive a different meening or lack of continuity from one paragraph to another.......

To clarify: I think "the beast" type of approach is a load of convenient escapism. You can blame anyone or anything, any little part of your brain for your behavior but YOU lifted yer ass up outa that chair, walked to where-ever, picked up that substance and put it into yer body. Unless you have a brain tumor the size of a grapefruit you alone are responsible. What, were ya sleepwalking? Oh, so now there are consequences, now is the time to play the blame/excuse lottery, "Oh, it's my damn limbic system." Gimme a break!

I might as well blame my fingernails for making me scratch myself. Then once you have the excuse for your behavior, you can play the "treatment" lottery till ya find something that fits whatever band wagon you can get on that doesn't have a mirror involved in the process.

Someday I'm gonna start my own group ..... It'll be called the Big Stick. Whenever anyone starts some behavior that they dont like, has consequences, or just makes them fell a sense of powerlessness, all ya gotta do is show up at a meeting and I'll hit ya in the head with a big stick. Keep coming back! ......When ya figure out that ya don't wanna be hit in the head anymore, you will either quit what yer doing or move down the self help lottery to find someone who will, lie and coddle ya into believing in them and thier ego...... Oh, and it will only cost 5 bucks a whack. I wouldn't wanna be acused of proffiteering.

Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi All ..... ,

I really can't see how my comments can be misunderstood or one could derive a different meening or lack of continuity from one paragraph to another.......

To clarify: I think "the beast" type of approach is a load of convenient escapism. You can blame anyone or anything, any little part of your brain for your behavior but YOU lifted yer ass up outa that chair, walked to where-ever, picked up that substance and put it into yer body. Unless you have a brain tumor the size of a grapefruit you alone are responsible. What, were ya sleepwalking? Oh, so now there are consequences, now is the time to play the blame/excuse lottery, "Oh, it's my damn limbic system." Gimme a break!

I might as well blame my fingernails for making me scratch myself. Then once you have the excuse for your behavior, you can play the "treatment" lottery till ya find something that fits whatever band wagon you can get on that doesn't have a mirror involved in the process.

Someday I'm gonna start my own group ..... It'll be called the Big Stick. Whenever anyone starts some behavior that they dont like, has consequences, or just makes them fell a sense of powerlessness, all ya gotta do is show up at a meeting and I'll hit ya in the head with a big stick. Keep coming back! ......When ya figure out that ya don't wanna be hit in the head anymore, you will either quit what yer doing or move down the self help lottery to find someone who will, lie and coddle ya into believing in them and thier ego...... Oh, and it will only cost 5 bucks a whack. I wouldn't wanna be acused of proffiteering.

Steve

[Guest guest]

sparkydawg69@... wrote:

Hi all,

I wasn't folowing this but

after reading s response I feel a coment is

in order.....

I'm not sure why my response would illicit the following

reply. You seem to be agreeing with me in your comments below, while

your above comment suggest that you do not. Perhaps I am misunderstanding

your comment above, or might you have misunderstood my original response?

Even if

all forms of alcohol addiction were biological in nature(which I

don't believe they are),

to give chacter traits and motivations to specific

individual functions or

aspects of the larger being is just plain silly. Who

came up with this rocket

science? "Ooh, my evil little limbic system, it's a

beast, its gonna get

me.".

Well, ya know what? I hate

my ass. It its very mean and sneaky. At the worst

possiblie moments, it just

sneaks up on me and makes me fart. It's out to get

me and make me feel bad

and question my own identity. Its very clever too, it

makes me eat all these foods

that make it really stinky and very

embarassing... people are

always looking at me..... Or maybe its my stomach

..... or maybe I can blame

my intestines .... or maybe I can blame my gall

bladder or something......

Seriously, though,

giving character and will, sentient motivation, to a part

of our brains that we barely

understand, to explain away our cognitive

concious behavior is desperate

grasping at anything, anything, to avoid

responsibilty for your own

behavior. The Son of Sam would have been proud of

that one........."I hear

voices in my head." "The neighbors dog told me to do

it."

Peace,

[Guest guest]

Re: [Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey]

> Hi all,

> I wasn't folowing this but after reading s response I feel a coment

is

> in order.....

>

> Even if all forms of alcohol addiction were biological in nature(which I

> don't believe they are), to give chacter traits and motivations to

specific

> individual functions or aspects of the larger being is just plain silly.

I don't know how to take your email address anymore. Please advise.

Dave Trippel

> Who

> came up with this rocket science? " Ooh, my evil little limbic system, it's

a

> beast, its gonna get me. " .

> Well, ya know what? I hate my ass. It its very mean and sneaky. At the

worst

> possiblie moments, it just sneaks up on me and makes me fart. It's out to

get

> me and make me feel bad and question my own identity. Its very clever too,

it

> makes me eat all these foods that make it really stinky and very

> embarassing... people are always looking at me..... Or maybe its my

stomach

> .... or maybe I can blame my intestines .... or maybe I can blame my gall

> bladder or something......

>

> Seriously, though, giving character and will, sentient motivation, to a

part

> of our brains that we barely understand, to explain away our cognitive

> concious behavior is desperate grasping at anything, anything, to avoid

> responsibilty for your own behavior. The Son of Sam would have been proud

of

> that one......... " I hear voices in my head. " " The neighbors dog told me to

do

> it. "

>

> Wheeeew,

>

> Steve

>

[Guest guest]

sparkydawg69@... wrote:

Hi All

...... ,

I really can't see how my

comments can be misunderstood or one could derive a

different meening or lack

of continuity from one paragraph to another.......

To clarify: I think "the

beast" type of approach is a load of convenient

escapism. You can blame

anyone or anything, any little part of your brain for

your behavior but YOU

lifted yer ass up outa that chair, walked to

where-ever, picked up that

substance and put it into yer body. Unless you

have a brain tumor the size

of a grapefruit you alone are responsible. What,

were ya sleepwalking? Oh,

so now there are consequences, now is the time to

play the blame/excuse lottery,

"Oh, it's my damn limbic system." Gimme a

break!

Steve,

I think you may have confused my comments with those

of Carol, whom I was responding to. I do not believe you will find

any comments of mine posted to this list supporting AVRT/Beast theory.

Nor will you find that I have said addictive use of drugs is anything less

than 100 percent within the individuals control. You might want to

reread the post in question before commenting any further.

BTW, you seem to have a misconception regarding

AVRT. AVRT does assign responsibility for using drugs to anything

but the individual. The "you lifted your ass out of the chair" concept

is central to RR. Just to be perfectly clear, my pointing out this

basic fact of AVRT should not be mistaken for support of AVRT.

Peace,

ps Was not sure weather to sign off with "Peace" or not.

I'm not sure if Steve is having words with me or some mythical hybrid of

Carol and myself.

[Guest guest]

sparkydawg69@... wrote:

Hi All

...... ,

I really can't see how my

comments can be misunderstood or one could derive a

different meening or lack

of continuity from one paragraph to another.......

To clarify: I think "the

beast" type of approach is a load of convenient

escapism. You can blame

anyone or anything, any little part of your brain for

your behavior but YOU

lifted yer ass up outa that chair, walked to

where-ever, picked up that

substance and put it into yer body. Unless you

have a brain tumor the size

of a grapefruit you alone are responsible. What,

were ya sleepwalking? Oh,

so now there are consequences, now is the time to

play the blame/excuse lottery,

"Oh, it's my damn limbic system." Gimme a

break!

Steve,

I think you may have confused my comments with those

of Carol, whom I was responding to. I do not believe you will find

any comments of mine posted to this list supporting AVRT/Beast theory.

Nor will you find that I have said addictive use of drugs is anything less

than 100 percent within the individuals control. You might want to

reread the post in question before commenting any further.

BTW, you seem to have a misconception regarding

AVRT. AVRT does assign responsibility for using drugs to anything

but the individual. The "you lifted your ass out of the chair" concept

is central to RR. Just to be perfectly clear, my pointing out this

basic fact of AVRT should not be mistaken for support of AVRT.

Peace,

ps Was not sure weather to sign off with "Peace" or not.

I'm not sure if Steve is having words with me or some mythical hybrid of

Carol and myself.

[Guest guest]

sparkydawg69@... wrote:

Hi All

...... ,

I really can't see how my

comments can be misunderstood or one could derive a

different meening or lack

of continuity from one paragraph to another.......

To clarify: I think "the

beast" type of approach is a load of convenient

escapism. You can blame

anyone or anything, any little part of your brain for

your behavior but YOU

lifted yer ass up outa that chair, walked to

where-ever, picked up that

substance and put it into yer body. Unless you

have a brain tumor the size

of a grapefruit you alone are responsible. What,

were ya sleepwalking? Oh,

so now there are consequences, now is the time to

play the blame/excuse lottery,

"Oh, it's my damn limbic system." Gimme a

break!

Steve,

I think you may have confused my comments with those

of Carol, whom I was responding to. I do not believe you will find

any comments of mine posted to this list supporting AVRT/Beast theory.

Nor will you find that I have said addictive use of drugs is anything less

than 100 percent within the individuals control. You might want to

reread the post in question before commenting any further.

BTW, you seem to have a misconception regarding

AVRT. AVRT does assign responsibility for using drugs to anything

but the individual. The "you lifted your ass out of the chair" concept

is central to RR. Just to be perfectly clear, my pointing out this

basic fact of AVRT should not be mistaken for support of AVRT.

Peace,

ps Was not sure weather to sign off with "Peace" or not.

I'm not sure if Steve is having words with me or some mythical hybrid of

Carol and myself.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/12/01 12:51:18 AM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< Piper,

How about exercise of will ............You don't have to do anything that

you

don't want to do except die, and that too can be effected by an act of will

like speeding up the process.

Also, I think there may be a Tibetan monk or two that could show you that

even diarhea can be stopped by force of will. Mind over body. Of course to

accomplish this you must first believe that it is possible to do so.........

Perception .......

steve >>

Steve, a book you may be interested in is by Damasio and is entitled

Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain. He writes very

passionately and this is not dull reading. Essentially, there is no

separation between mind and body. I think you would enjoy this. Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/12/01 12:51:18 AM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< Piper,

How about exercise of will ............You don't have to do anything that

you

don't want to do except die, and that too can be effected by an act of will

like speeding up the process.

Also, I think there may be a Tibetan monk or two that could show you that

even diarhea can be stopped by force of will. Mind over body. Of course to

accomplish this you must first believe that it is possible to do so.........

Perception .......

steve >>

Steve, a book you may be interested in is by Damasio and is entitled

Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain. He writes very

passionately and this is not dull reading. Essentially, there is no

separation between mind and body. I think you would enjoy this. Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/12/01 12:51:18 AM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< Piper,

How about exercise of will ............You don't have to do anything that

you

don't want to do except die, and that too can be effected by an act of will

like speeding up the process.

Also, I think there may be a Tibetan monk or two that could show you that

even diarhea can be stopped by force of will. Mind over body. Of course to

accomplish this you must first believe that it is possible to do so.........

Perception .......

steve >>

Steve, a book you may be interested in is by Damasio and is entitled

Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain. He writes very

passionately and this is not dull reading. Essentially, there is no

separation between mind and body. I think you would enjoy this. Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/10/01 8:53:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< 'm not having words with anyone, j >>

Just as long as you don't eat your words or theirs. Errr....is this a rule?

Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/10/01 8:53:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< 'm not having words with anyone, j >>

Just as long as you don't eat your words or theirs. Errr....is this a rule?

Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/10/01 8:53:24 PM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< 'm not having words with anyone, j >>

Just as long as you don't eat your words or theirs. Errr....is this a rule?

Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/14/01 11:11:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,

CarolFrancey@... writes:

<< For what its worth you don't repress it rather you recognize it hence

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique. But then you aren't aware of the

technique.

Carol

>>

What????

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/14/01 11:11:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,

CarolFrancey@... writes:

<< For what its worth you don't repress it rather you recognize it hence

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique. But then you aren't aware of the

technique.

Carol

>>

What????

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/14/01 11:11:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,

CarolFrancey@... writes:

<< For what its worth you don't repress it rather you recognize it hence

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique. But then you aren't aware of the

technique.

Carol

>>

What????

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 1/14/01 11:11:14 AM Pacific Standard Time,

> CarolFrancey@n... writes:

>

> << For what its worth you don't repress it rather you recognize it

hence

> Addictive Voice Recognition Technique. But then you aren't aware of

the

> technique.

> Carol

> >>

> What????

>

----------------------

Piper --

While I am not an unconditional " JT can do no wrong " fan of

Trimpey's by any means, I do think there is merit in AVRT.

Basically, the idea is that you recgnize your urges as being

an " appetite " , which you need not indulge. Trimpey has a good point

with this -- AA teaches that your constant goal must be to avoid

HAVING any urge to drink, because humans are " powerless " over their

urges. RR teaches that urges themselves need not be feared, because

humans are NOT powerless over appetites. Therefore one need

not " suppress " an urge, but rather recognize that they are empowered

to feel such an urge without indulging it, because humans are

stronger than their urges.

I remember one time I saw a very interesting letter to " Dear

Abby " (who is a shameless Step-pusher) by a man who told of how he

stopped smoking after a 30-year " addiction " -- he said that after he

made up his mind to quit, he saved a pack with ONE cigarette in it,

and whenever he got the urge to smoke, he would pull the pack out of

his pocket, look at the cigarette, and say " I'm a hell of a lot

bigger and stronger than you are, buddy. " And eventually he was able

to throw away the stale old cigarette. Abby congratulated him on his

successful method. Now why can't Dear Abby and her readers see that

this can be applied to alcohol and drugs as well?

One of my main objections to RR and Trimpey, though, is that

they refuse to see that modifed forms of the AVRT technique can be

very helpful for those who choose to moderate as well, and in fact

vilify any former problem drinker who has not committed to absolute

lifetime abstinence. Moderation Management has certain absolutes --

e.g. participants must make a commitment not to drink before

driving. Seems to me one can use AVRT to be stronger than the

appetite when it is inappropriate to indulge it (such as when you

know you're going to be driving) and at times when there would not be

any danger, to recognize your appetite, and indulge in moderation.

Trimpey also rejects and ridicules any and all serious

researchers (the " anti-intellectualism " others have pointed out), and

has attacked one of the major sane voices in the addiction research

field today, Stanton Peele -- Trimpey calls him " Dr. Beast " . Very

juvenile, in my opinion.

~Rita