Guest guest Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Gene, Same thing in preEMS. AHA has for years insisted the best measure of a class is HOURS in attendance. So they mandate a minimum number of hours, and they tell the " horror stories " of the sub-standard education out there, based on the fact that their courses are shorter! Maybe most deficient courses ARE shorter, but the converse isn't true, that MOST short courses are deficient. We need to work on what we measure, and what success in a class really is. =Steve= wegandy1938@... wrote: >Putting on my devil's advocate hat for a moment, what relevance does any >number of hours in classroom attendance have to do with anything? A student >who slept for 120 hours during class because he is dead tired hasn't done >anything but exhibit 120 hours of classroom sleep. On the other hand, he may find >time to study during his all-night work shift and master the material in 1/2 >the time. > >If a student can handle a module that is estimated to take 10 hours in 2, >demonstrate mastery of the information, then why in the world would we want them >to waste the rest of that time? > >I took the Online drivers safety course. I was set up that way. >Absolutely maddening. I felt that I was being kept in jail for the number of hours of >the course as penance for my sins. I could have covered the materials and >answered the questions in 1/4 the alloted amount of time. I did manage to >finish a new Tom Clancy book while the clock was running. > > > >I believe that Texas requires a course coordinator to cover and certify that >the course content has been covered, not that a butt has occupied a chair for >any amount of time. > >G > >n a message dated 10/28/04 11:58:23, bbledsoe@... writes > > > >>In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there >>have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the test. >>If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how >>will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let >>the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My >>daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the State >>of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I see >>your point--but there are two sides to it. >> >>BEB >> >> >> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP >>Midlothian, TX >> >> RE: Online EMT Course >> >> >>One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent >>students from moving from one topic area >>to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has >>time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since >>different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time " >>really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn >>at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just >>that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to >>proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as >>long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor >>through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get >>it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that >>this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated >>because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been >>done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response. >> >>Just my opinion... >> >>Jane Hill >> >>-------------- Original message from " Bledsoe " >>: -------------- >> >>Hey gang: >> >>Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of >>on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook >>author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and >>do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract >>theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page >>in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic >>Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th >>grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs. >>Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text, >>reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the >>national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based >>(although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of >>interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director >>through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations >>Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all >>special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and >>Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am >>a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National >>Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this: >> >>1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual >>(not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible, >>videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving. >>2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable >>hours). >>3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to >>study (a textbook may suffice). >>4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area >>to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed. >>5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a >>classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for >>Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with >>patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to >>provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student >>and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good >>on-line program. >>6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry. >> >>For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics >>must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this >>on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here). >>Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the >>need for more comprehensive ongoing education. >> >>For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be >>fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and >>clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running >>through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS >>people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced >>computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something >>not interactive or challenging. >> >>But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a >>student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a >>white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses >>(EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to >>the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for >>low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary). >> >>I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on >>the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work >>again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for >>the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS >>programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of >>the things I listed above. >> >>BEB >> >> >> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP >>Midlothian, TX >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Gene, Same thing in preEMS. AHA has for years insisted the best measure of a class is HOURS in attendance. So they mandate a minimum number of hours, and they tell the " horror stories " of the sub-standard education out there, based on the fact that their courses are shorter! Maybe most deficient courses ARE shorter, but the converse isn't true, that MOST short courses are deficient. We need to work on what we measure, and what success in a class really is. =Steve= wegandy1938@... wrote: >Putting on my devil's advocate hat for a moment, what relevance does any >number of hours in classroom attendance have to do with anything? A student >who slept for 120 hours during class because he is dead tired hasn't done >anything but exhibit 120 hours of classroom sleep. On the other hand, he may find >time to study during his all-night work shift and master the material in 1/2 >the time. > >If a student can handle a module that is estimated to take 10 hours in 2, >demonstrate mastery of the information, then why in the world would we want them >to waste the rest of that time? > >I took the Online drivers safety course. I was set up that way. >Absolutely maddening. I felt that I was being kept in jail for the number of hours of >the course as penance for my sins. I could have covered the materials and >answered the questions in 1/4 the alloted amount of time. I did manage to >finish a new Tom Clancy book while the clock was running. > > > >I believe that Texas requires a course coordinator to cover and certify that >the course content has been covered, not that a butt has occupied a chair for >any amount of time. > >G > >n a message dated 10/28/04 11:58:23, bbledsoe@... writes > > > >>In terms of accredidaton for physican, nursing and I think EMS CME, there >>have to be safegaurds to keep the students from going directly to the test. >>If you as a course director attest to 120 hours classroom attendence, how >>will you now your attestation is correct unless the computer would not let >>the students get to the test until a certain amount of time has passed? My >>daughter recently finished cosmetology school at Hill College and the State >>of Texas requires 1,500 hours minumum. They had to punch a time clock. I see >>your point--but there are two sides to it. >> >>BEB >> >> >> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP >>Midlothian, TX >> >> RE: Online EMT Course >> >> >>One question, Dr. B, about your comment: >4. There must be a way to prevent >>students from moving from one topic area >>to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed.<< What has >>time seated in a chair got to do with retention or learning? Since >>different people learn at different rates, we have found that butt " time " >>really has very little to do with outcomes of learning. Some students learn >>at a very fast pace - maybe they have prior exposure or maybe they are just >>that basically intelligent. Forcing them to wait for a period of time to >>proceed is only irritating and unnecessary. Other students take twice as >>long as the average student, and it becomes evident to the instructor >>through discussions, testing, and hands-on that the student just didn't get >>it and needs to revisit the topic or subject again. I personally think that >>this is just another one of those issues that has continued to be propagated >>because we THINK that it is necessary, that is the way it has ALWAYS been >>done (even in live classroom training), and is another ingrained response. >> >>Just my opinion... >> >>Jane Hill >> >>-------------- Original message from " Bledsoe " >>: -------------- >> >>Hey gang: >> >>Before you declare me a complete heretic, hear me out. I am in favor of >>on-line EMS education when it can be properly applied. From a textbook >>author standpoint, I know this. EMS students tend to be visual learners and >>do poorly in analytical skiils (math, chemical nomenclature, abstract >>theory). Because of this, we find that we need about 0.5 visuals per page >>in the books to satisfy this need (this is why the Mosby/ACEP Paramedic >>Textbook never sold). Writing for paramedics (high-end) must be at the 11th >>grade level and at the 9th grade for low-end paramedic students and EMTs. >>Complex concepts have to be listed in the objectives, described in the text, >>reinforced in the art, and verified by the testing. I am no fan of the >>national registry but they are trying to make their test task-based >>(although there are still CISM questions there). I have three ares of >>interest in on-line EMS education. I am affiliated as a medical director >>through Tech-Pro. I am Co-Chair of the United States Special Operations >>Command (USSOCOM) committee to establish the curriculum and testing of all >>special forces medics (Navy Seals, 41-Deltas, Air Force PJs, Airborne and >>Delta Force Medics), and have a big interest in rural EMS education, and am >>a partner in the EMT-Jane on-line CE program affiliated with the National >>Paramedic Institute. I said all that to say this: >> >>1. If and when on-line education is used for EMS, it must be very visual >>(not page after page of text). It must include art, and when possible, >>videos and gaming. It should have some degree of problem solving. >>2. An instructor mist be available to answert questions (at reasonable >>hours). >>3. There must be a written guide to accompany the program from which to >>study (a textbook may suffice). >>4. There must be a way to prevent students from moving from one topic area >>to another until a certain standard amount of time has passed. >>5. Analytical skills (math) and psychomotor skills must be provided in a >>classroom setting. I have long advocated Texas follow the Center for >>Emergency Medicine in Pittsburg and develop a semi-trailer EMS lab with >>patient simulators and supplies and travel to remote sites in Texas to >>provide the skills necessary (take the instructor and skills to the student >>and not the other way around). This is a perfect compliment to a good >>on-line program. >>6. Teach problem-solving at some time and review for the National Registry. >> >>For the military (with the high-level of deployment), special forces medics >>must obtain their sustainment education in the field. We are doing this >>on-line and with high-quality DVDs (of which many are on my desk here). >>Their area of knowledge is muchg broader than civilian medics and thus the >>need for more comprehensive ongoing education. >> >>For the continuing education programs, the on-line material must be >>fast-paced, interactive, fun (even with a touch of humor), and >>clinically-relevent, It too must have safe gaurds to pevent students running >>through the test and must offer some objective measures at the end. EMS >>people of today are familiar with Rescue 911, COPS, and are experienced >>computer gamers (or X-BOT, Nintendo, Sega) and will be bored with something >>not interactive or challenging. >> >>But, there are some aspects of EMS education that will still require a >>student with a #2 pencil and a Big Chief tablet and an instructor with a >>white board (or black board) and a piece of chalk. In the higher courses >>(EMT-I and EMT-P), there still must be a reference text that corrsponds to >>the on-line material. This is soemthing we are working on for 2006 for >>low-end EMT-P programs (a course primarily on-line with the book secondary). >> >>I don't necessarily agree with everything underway, but if I don't get on >>the band wagon--somebody else will and I'll have to really go back to work >>again. Please understand that this is something I have been immersed in for >>the last two years and have seen both sides. I have seen some on-line EMS >>programs fail miserably and some do pretty well. It all depends on some of >>the things I listed above. >> >>BEB >> >> >> E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP >>Midlothian, TX >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 I'm in. Maybe this will FINALLY get me there! =Steve= wegandy1938@... wrote: >Sounds like it to me. Let's have an Educator's camp and just deal with >education stuff. > >gg > > > > E.(Gene) Gandy >POB 1651 >Albany, TX 76430 >wegandy1938@... > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 I'm in. Maybe this will FINALLY get me there! =Steve= wegandy1938@... wrote: >Sounds like it to me. Let's have an Educator's camp and just deal with >education stuff. > >gg > > > > E.(Gene) Gandy >POB 1651 >Albany, TX 76430 >wegandy1938@... > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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