Re: communism

[Guest guest]

Dixie,

You are arguing with a man who says that young girls mostly from a

poor Jewish community only had themselves to blame for working in a

deathtrap sweatshop which took over 100 of their lives (NY Shirt Waist

company fire, c1920). As it happens I understand they were trying to

unionize and improve conditions. Doubtless coolguy would approve of

their employer's resistance. He concludes i am a communist

just because i condem Libertarianism and the politics of Ayn Rand.

> One of the

> reasons Africa is so poor and so many people are starving is

>because Europeans who conquered African countries forced people to

>work on things to export, instead of growing staple crops. Africans

>who will virtually nevertaste beef because they cannot afford it,

>work on cattle ranches to raise beef to export to Europe. Gold and

>diamonds are sent to Europe, but the people reap few rewards.

I rather think that it is the influence of the IMF and other

international banks, which are considerably American influenced, to

put it mildy. That they were former European colonies has no more

modern siginificance than being a former British colony has on

America. Europe will take more imports just because it happens to be

the nearest Western countries; I have no doubt African diamonds go

everywhere, to be cut in Israel and sold in America for example. To

portray Europe as the villain of the piece while not mentioning

American influence is very unfair.

> The British forced the Chinese to trade opium for tea so they could

>gain enough money to pay for British needs. Would you rather we do

>that, turn into a nation of drug lords?

The so-called " Opium wars " were fought for a number of reasons,

principally to get diplomatic recognition from an Empire that thought

European countries were just places they hadnt conquered yet, and to

guarantee human rights for Europeans in China. What was (admittedly

perhaps unfairly) demanded was merely free trade, not specifically to

trade opium. More opium was always grown within China than was

imported, and the main reason Europeans sold it was becaue the Chinese

werent interested in buying much else, except perhaps for guns.

Unrefined opium is nothing like as dangerous as the opiates derived

from it, usually causing little more than listlessness and

constipation. The modern British American Tobacco company (and

others) are probably doing much more damge to the the health of East

Asians with their ferocious pursuit of tobacco exports, (including

illegal ones, I understand).

> Dixie, who owns cattle--but not on BLM land--and who's a NRA member

>who thinks it's about time to get out that bumper sticker that says

> " Charlton Heston is MY President " --because Bush has made it very

>clear he's not my president.

Ah you would have to say that. As it happens, of all the debates I

have had with ppl on this list and elsewhere, about the only thing

that has made me question my views is my former implacable hostility

to gun ownership. While not decided by any means, I am prepared to

accept that the unique situation in America may mean that whereas gun

control is good in the UK it may not be over there.

Pete

[Guest guest]

Dixie,

You are arguing with a man who says that young girls mostly from a

poor Jewish community only had themselves to blame for working in a

deathtrap sweatshop which took over 100 of their lives (NY Shirt Waist

company fire, c1920). As it happens I understand they were trying to

unionize and improve conditions. Doubtless coolguy would approve of

their employer's resistance. He concludes i am a communist

just because i condem Libertarianism and the politics of Ayn Rand.

> One of the

> reasons Africa is so poor and so many people are starving is

>because Europeans who conquered African countries forced people to

>work on things to export, instead of growing staple crops. Africans

>who will virtually nevertaste beef because they cannot afford it,

>work on cattle ranches to raise beef to export to Europe. Gold and

>diamonds are sent to Europe, but the people reap few rewards.

I rather think that it is the influence of the IMF and other

international banks, which are considerably American influenced, to

put it mildy. That they were former European colonies has no more

modern siginificance than being a former British colony has on

America. Europe will take more imports just because it happens to be

the nearest Western countries; I have no doubt African diamonds go

everywhere, to be cut in Israel and sold in America for example. To

portray Europe as the villain of the piece while not mentioning

American influence is very unfair.

> The British forced the Chinese to trade opium for tea so they could

>gain enough money to pay for British needs. Would you rather we do

>that, turn into a nation of drug lords?

The so-called " Opium wars " were fought for a number of reasons,

principally to get diplomatic recognition from an Empire that thought

European countries were just places they hadnt conquered yet, and to

guarantee human rights for Europeans in China. What was (admittedly

perhaps unfairly) demanded was merely free trade, not specifically to

trade opium. More opium was always grown within China than was

imported, and the main reason Europeans sold it was becaue the Chinese

werent interested in buying much else, except perhaps for guns.

Unrefined opium is nothing like as dangerous as the opiates derived

from it, usually causing little more than listlessness and

constipation. The modern British American Tobacco company (and

others) are probably doing much more damge to the the health of East

Asians with their ferocious pursuit of tobacco exports, (including

illegal ones, I understand).

> Dixie, who owns cattle--but not on BLM land--and who's a NRA member

>who thinks it's about time to get out that bumper sticker that says

> " Charlton Heston is MY President " --because Bush has made it very

>clear he's not my president.

Ah you would have to say that. As it happens, of all the debates I

have had with ppl on this list and elsewhere, about the only thing

that has made me question my views is my former implacable hostility

to gun ownership. While not decided by any means, I am prepared to

accept that the unique situation in America may mean that whereas gun

control is good in the UK it may not be over there.

Pete

[Guest guest]

>You are arguing with a man who says that young girls mostly from a

>poor Jewish community only had themselves to blame for working in a

>deathtrap sweatshop which took over 100 of their lives (NY Shirt Waist

>company fire, c1920). As it happens I understand they were trying to

>unionize and improve conditions. Doubtless coolguy would approve of

>their employer's resistance. He concludes i am a communist

>just because i condem Libertarianism and the politics of Ayn Rand.

Thank you for clarifying.

>I rather think that it is the influence of the IMF and other

>international banks, which are considerably American influenced, to

>put it mildy. That they were former European colonies has no more

>modern siginificance than being a former British colony has on

>America. Europe will take more imports just because it happens to be

>the nearest Western countries; I have no doubt African diamonds go

>everywhere, to be cut in Israel and sold in America for example. To

>portray Europe as the villain of the piece while not mentioning

>American influence is very unfair.

You're correct for the most part--I was speaking more from an historical

perspective, first half of the 20th century. But the damage of being the

colony of a European state is perpetuated. the IMF has its policies because

the European farmers who began forcing their black workers to grow export

crops persuaded the IMF to support export, not domestic agriculture. Rwanda

is such a mess in part because of the effects of the French forcing two

disparate tribes to live together.

And you're right, it was unfair of me not to mention american influence.

But I was trying to sum up a large situation in a few words. The point is

that Africa would not be the mess it is today, if European powers had not

divided up the country, forced people out of agriculture for domestic

consumption, and then abandoned their former colonies without setting up

much of a democratic system. The policies of the IMF continue to play a

huge role in Africa's continued hardships. It's a complex problem which I

was trying to sum up in a sentence or two.

>The so-called " Opium wars " were fought for a number of reasons,

>principally to get diplomatic recognition from an Empire that thought

>European countries were just places they hadnt conquered yet, and to

>guarantee human rights for Europeans in China.

Though I think it could be said that the European powers viewed China as

merely a place they hadn't conquered yet. Again, the problem is deep,

varied, and complex, not given well to one-sentence summations. But the

point still holds--capitalism is not the end all and be all, it does not

trump everything else, and it is dependent upon devaluing natural resources

and very often some form of colonialism.

While not decided by any means, I am prepared to

>accept that the unique situation in America may mean that whereas gun

>control is good in the UK it may not be over there.

I was quite shocked when I went into a little room of the riding stable

where I lived and worked outside Caernarfon, Wales, and found Gwyndaf

holding a pistol. " You can have those? " I stammered. " It's legal? Cool! " Of

course you have to belong to a gun club and a ton of other restrictions,

and I'm not sure you can own pistols since the unfortunate ish

incident, but I was quite cheeried to discover that there are some Brits

who own pistols. (Quite a few own shotguns, the better to hunt peasants in

the Highlands with.)

Of course, i also remember the Welsh (female) police officer who was

expressing grave doubts about remaining on the force if they would be made

to carry firearms. I also remember reading something about crime and

violence escalating whereever police started carrying firearms. I concluded

from that that the way to make the U.S. safer would be to stop the police

from carrying firearms. :-)

Seriously, pistols have gotten me out of some serious scrapes several

times. There have been numerous occasions when people have tried to run my

mother and sister off the road, and they were grateful they had their

pistols with t hem. And then, I also take more chances precisely because I

have my pistol. I'm more likely to pick up a hitchhiker if I have a means

of defending myself than if I don't.

But this is an addiction recovery list, not a gun list, so I'll stop now.

Though, since you're apparently from the UK, I'll bring in alcoholism in a

roundabout way:

The best health care I ever received was as a student at the University of

Texas at Austin. If I wasn't feeling well, I went to the Student Health

Center and saw a doctor and got a prescription. Appointments could be made

a week or two in advance. It certainly wasn't the place for major traumas,

but for ordinary health care, it's the best health care I will ever

receive.

The second best health care I've ever received was when I was on National

Health in Britain. I only used it a couple of times, but I got to see a

doctor, I got the medication I needed, I didn't have to forego a

prescription because I couldn't afford it, and my health didn't suffer

because there was a doctor there when I needed one.

For a long time, I didn't have insurance. Now I do. I had an asthma attack

in late September. I wheezed for 2 days, unable to breathe well enough to

talk normally, unable to get any sleep, before I relented and let my mom

take me to the emergency room. A month and a half later, the hospital was

threatening to turn me over to a collection agency unless I paid up. My

deductible is $1500, so I couldn't come up with it all at once. The total

bill was close to $1000, for 3 rounds of inhallent meds. A month later, I

got another asthma attack, though not as bad as the first. I was back home

by then (the first time was at my sister's in Virginia) and I called a

doctor to make an appointment. The soonest appointment I could get was 2.5

weeks away. " what am I to do about this asthma attack? " I asked. " Wheeze "

was the reply. I had to change clothes 2 or 3 times a day because I would

cough so violently I peed in my pants. My nights were wracked with coughing

and lack of breath. I had to wait almost 3 weeks to see the doctor. When I

did, he gave me 2 prescriptions. I could only afford to fill one--the other

is $200 per month, an amount i can't afford.

I've helped out a couple of alcoholic friends lately. I took Robby to the

county hospital for detox. He had called an ambulance, but 7 hospitals in

San were closed to ambulances--the only way you could get into the

ER was to walk in, because they were so busy. A large part of the reason

they're so busy is because people can't afford to go

to the doctor, so they go the the ER for fairly minor things--flu, earache,

stuff like that. A sign above the reception area said that there was a 5

hour wait for traumas, a 10 to 12 hour wait for non-traumas. ( " Oh, sorry

you're having a heart attack---we'll be with you in 3.5 hours! " ) Robby

waited for 12 hours before the DTs got so bad he left. I took him back a

few days later for another try, and this time he stayed the 14 hours it

took for them to get him admitted and started on adovan.

Lee is fortunate enough to have VA benefits. I took him to the VA hospital,

and they started to work on him within an hour. The VA hospitals are,of

course, socialized medicine. Now, they are FAR from perfect, and sometimes

the wait is bad (but a lot better than at the county hospital) and I'm sure

there are legions of horror stories about them, but: they kept my dad alive

for 12 years, they (actually, military hospitals, not the VA) saved both my

nephew's and my sister's lives, they've provided my family with hundreds of

thousands of dollars of health care which we would otherwise not have been

able to pay for, which would have resulted in the deaths of my family

members. If our members of Congress have socialized medicine, why can not

we? The military whose members are arch conservatives who rail against

socialism, enjoy the benefits of socialized medicine without batting an

eye. One of those good for the goose, good for the gander situations.

What does it matter how good and modern your machines are if people's basic

medical needs are going unmet because they can't afford basic health care?

Dixie

[Guest guest]

>You are arguing with a man who says that young girls mostly from a

>poor Jewish community only had themselves to blame for working in a

>deathtrap sweatshop which took over 100 of their lives (NY Shirt Waist

>company fire, c1920). As it happens I understand they were trying to

>unionize and improve conditions. Doubtless coolguy would approve of

>their employer's resistance. He concludes i am a communist

>just because i condem Libertarianism and the politics of Ayn Rand.

Thank you for clarifying.

>I rather think that it is the influence of the IMF and other

>international banks, which are considerably American influenced, to

>put it mildy. That they were former European colonies has no more

>modern siginificance than being a former British colony has on

>America. Europe will take more imports just because it happens to be

>the nearest Western countries; I have no doubt African diamonds go

>everywhere, to be cut in Israel and sold in America for example. To

>portray Europe as the villain of the piece while not mentioning

>American influence is very unfair.

You're correct for the most part--I was speaking more from an historical

perspective, first half of the 20th century. But the damage of being the

colony of a European state is perpetuated. the IMF has its policies because

the European farmers who began forcing their black workers to grow export

crops persuaded the IMF to support export, not domestic agriculture. Rwanda

is such a mess in part because of the effects of the French forcing two

disparate tribes to live together.

And you're right, it was unfair of me not to mention american influence.

But I was trying to sum up a large situation in a few words. The point is

that Africa would not be the mess it is today, if European powers had not

divided up the country, forced people out of agriculture for domestic

consumption, and then abandoned their former colonies without setting up

much of a democratic system. The policies of the IMF continue to play a

huge role in Africa's continued hardships. It's a complex problem which I

was trying to sum up in a sentence or two.

>The so-called " Opium wars " were fought for a number of reasons,

>principally to get diplomatic recognition from an Empire that thought

>European countries were just places they hadnt conquered yet, and to

>guarantee human rights for Europeans in China.

Though I think it could be said that the European powers viewed China as

merely a place they hadn't conquered yet. Again, the problem is deep,

varied, and complex, not given well to one-sentence summations. But the

point still holds--capitalism is not the end all and be all, it does not

trump everything else, and it is dependent upon devaluing natural resources

and very often some form of colonialism.

While not decided by any means, I am prepared to

>accept that the unique situation in America may mean that whereas gun

>control is good in the UK it may not be over there.

I was quite shocked when I went into a little room of the riding stable

where I lived and worked outside Caernarfon, Wales, and found Gwyndaf

holding a pistol. " You can have those? " I stammered. " It's legal? Cool! " Of

course you have to belong to a gun club and a ton of other restrictions,

and I'm not sure you can own pistols since the unfortunate ish

incident, but I was quite cheeried to discover that there are some Brits

who own pistols. (Quite a few own shotguns, the better to hunt peasants in

the Highlands with.)

Of course, i also remember the Welsh (female) police officer who was

expressing grave doubts about remaining on the force if they would be made

to carry firearms. I also remember reading something about crime and

violence escalating whereever police started carrying firearms. I concluded

from that that the way to make the U.S. safer would be to stop the police

from carrying firearms. :-)

Seriously, pistols have gotten me out of some serious scrapes several

times. There have been numerous occasions when people have tried to run my

mother and sister off the road, and they were grateful they had their

pistols with t hem. And then, I also take more chances precisely because I

have my pistol. I'm more likely to pick up a hitchhiker if I have a means

of defending myself than if I don't.

But this is an addiction recovery list, not a gun list, so I'll stop now.

Though, since you're apparently from the UK, I'll bring in alcoholism in a

roundabout way:

The best health care I ever received was as a student at the University of

Texas at Austin. If I wasn't feeling well, I went to the Student Health

Center and saw a doctor and got a prescription. Appointments could be made

a week or two in advance. It certainly wasn't the place for major traumas,

but for ordinary health care, it's the best health care I will ever

receive.

The second best health care I've ever received was when I was on National

Health in Britain. I only used it a couple of times, but I got to see a

doctor, I got the medication I needed, I didn't have to forego a

prescription because I couldn't afford it, and my health didn't suffer

because there was a doctor there when I needed one.

For a long time, I didn't have insurance. Now I do. I had an asthma attack

in late September. I wheezed for 2 days, unable to breathe well enough to

talk normally, unable to get any sleep, before I relented and let my mom

take me to the emergency room. A month and a half later, the hospital was

threatening to turn me over to a collection agency unless I paid up. My

deductible is $1500, so I couldn't come up with it all at once. The total

bill was close to $1000, for 3 rounds of inhallent meds. A month later, I

got another asthma attack, though not as bad as the first. I was back home

by then (the first time was at my sister's in Virginia) and I called a

doctor to make an appointment. The soonest appointment I could get was 2.5

weeks away. " what am I to do about this asthma attack? " I asked. " Wheeze "

was the reply. I had to change clothes 2 or 3 times a day because I would

cough so violently I peed in my pants. My nights were wracked with coughing

and lack of breath. I had to wait almost 3 weeks to see the doctor. When I

did, he gave me 2 prescriptions. I could only afford to fill one--the other

is $200 per month, an amount i can't afford.

I've helped out a couple of alcoholic friends lately. I took Robby to the

county hospital for detox. He had called an ambulance, but 7 hospitals in

San were closed to ambulances--the only way you could get into the

ER was to walk in, because they were so busy. A large part of the reason

they're so busy is because people can't afford to go

to the doctor, so they go the the ER for fairly minor things--flu, earache,

stuff like that. A sign above the reception area said that there was a 5

hour wait for traumas, a 10 to 12 hour wait for non-traumas. ( " Oh, sorry

you're having a heart attack---we'll be with you in 3.5 hours! " ) Robby

waited for 12 hours before the DTs got so bad he left. I took him back a

few days later for another try, and this time he stayed the 14 hours it

took for them to get him admitted and started on adovan.

Lee is fortunate enough to have VA benefits. I took him to the VA hospital,

and they started to work on him within an hour. The VA hospitals are,of

course, socialized medicine. Now, they are FAR from perfect, and sometimes

the wait is bad (but a lot better than at the county hospital) and I'm sure

there are legions of horror stories about them, but: they kept my dad alive

for 12 years, they (actually, military hospitals, not the VA) saved both my

nephew's and my sister's lives, they've provided my family with hundreds of

thousands of dollars of health care which we would otherwise not have been

able to pay for, which would have resulted in the deaths of my family

members. If our members of Congress have socialized medicine, why can not

we? The military whose members are arch conservatives who rail against

socialism, enjoy the benefits of socialized medicine without batting an

eye. One of those good for the goose, good for the gander situations.

What does it matter how good and modern your machines are if people's basic

medical needs are going unmet because they can't afford basic health care?

Dixie

[Guest guest]

>You are arguing with a man who says that young girls mostly from a

>poor Jewish community only had themselves to blame for working in a

>deathtrap sweatshop which took over 100 of their lives (NY Shirt Waist

>company fire, c1920). As it happens I understand they were trying to

>unionize and improve conditions. Doubtless coolguy would approve of

>their employer's resistance. He concludes i am a communist

>just because i condem Libertarianism and the politics of Ayn Rand.

Thank you for clarifying.

>I rather think that it is the influence of the IMF and other

>international banks, which are considerably American influenced, to

>put it mildy. That they were former European colonies has no more

>modern siginificance than being a former British colony has on

>America. Europe will take more imports just because it happens to be

>the nearest Western countries; I have no doubt African diamonds go

>everywhere, to be cut in Israel and sold in America for example. To

>portray Europe as the villain of the piece while not mentioning

>American influence is very unfair.

You're correct for the most part--I was speaking more from an historical

perspective, first half of the 20th century. But the damage of being the

colony of a European state is perpetuated. the IMF has its policies because

the European farmers who began forcing their black workers to grow export

crops persuaded the IMF to support export, not domestic agriculture. Rwanda

is such a mess in part because of the effects of the French forcing two

disparate tribes to live together.

And you're right, it was unfair of me not to mention american influence.

But I was trying to sum up a large situation in a few words. The point is

that Africa would not be the mess it is today, if European powers had not

divided up the country, forced people out of agriculture for domestic

consumption, and then abandoned their former colonies without setting up

much of a democratic system. The policies of the IMF continue to play a

huge role in Africa's continued hardships. It's a complex problem which I

was trying to sum up in a sentence or two.

>The so-called " Opium wars " were fought for a number of reasons,

>principally to get diplomatic recognition from an Empire that thought

>European countries were just places they hadnt conquered yet, and to

>guarantee human rights for Europeans in China.

Though I think it could be said that the European powers viewed China as

merely a place they hadn't conquered yet. Again, the problem is deep,

varied, and complex, not given well to one-sentence summations. But the

point still holds--capitalism is not the end all and be all, it does not

trump everything else, and it is dependent upon devaluing natural resources

and very often some form of colonialism.

While not decided by any means, I am prepared to

>accept that the unique situation in America may mean that whereas gun

>control is good in the UK it may not be over there.

I was quite shocked when I went into a little room of the riding stable

where I lived and worked outside Caernarfon, Wales, and found Gwyndaf

holding a pistol. " You can have those? " I stammered. " It's legal? Cool! " Of

course you have to belong to a gun club and a ton of other restrictions,

and I'm not sure you can own pistols since the unfortunate ish

incident, but I was quite cheeried to discover that there are some Brits

who own pistols. (Quite a few own shotguns, the better to hunt peasants in

the Highlands with.)

Of course, i also remember the Welsh (female) police officer who was

expressing grave doubts about remaining on the force if they would be made

to carry firearms. I also remember reading something about crime and

violence escalating whereever police started carrying firearms. I concluded

from that that the way to make the U.S. safer would be to stop the police

from carrying firearms. :-)

Seriously, pistols have gotten me out of some serious scrapes several

times. There have been numerous occasions when people have tried to run my

mother and sister off the road, and they were grateful they had their

pistols with t hem. And then, I also take more chances precisely because I

have my pistol. I'm more likely to pick up a hitchhiker if I have a means

of defending myself than if I don't.

But this is an addiction recovery list, not a gun list, so I'll stop now.

Though, since you're apparently from the UK, I'll bring in alcoholism in a

roundabout way:

The best health care I ever received was as a student at the University of

Texas at Austin. If I wasn't feeling well, I went to the Student Health

Center and saw a doctor and got a prescription. Appointments could be made

a week or two in advance. It certainly wasn't the place for major traumas,

but for ordinary health care, it's the best health care I will ever

receive.

The second best health care I've ever received was when I was on National

Health in Britain. I only used it a couple of times, but I got to see a

doctor, I got the medication I needed, I didn't have to forego a

prescription because I couldn't afford it, and my health didn't suffer

because there was a doctor there when I needed one.

For a long time, I didn't have insurance. Now I do. I had an asthma attack

in late September. I wheezed for 2 days, unable to breathe well enough to

talk normally, unable to get any sleep, before I relented and let my mom

take me to the emergency room. A month and a half later, the hospital was

threatening to turn me over to a collection agency unless I paid up. My

deductible is $1500, so I couldn't come up with it all at once. The total

bill was close to $1000, for 3 rounds of inhallent meds. A month later, I

got another asthma attack, though not as bad as the first. I was back home

by then (the first time was at my sister's in Virginia) and I called a

doctor to make an appointment. The soonest appointment I could get was 2.5

weeks away. " what am I to do about this asthma attack? " I asked. " Wheeze "

was the reply. I had to change clothes 2 or 3 times a day because I would

cough so violently I peed in my pants. My nights were wracked with coughing

and lack of breath. I had to wait almost 3 weeks to see the doctor. When I

did, he gave me 2 prescriptions. I could only afford to fill one--the other

is $200 per month, an amount i can't afford.

I've helped out a couple of alcoholic friends lately. I took Robby to the

county hospital for detox. He had called an ambulance, but 7 hospitals in

San were closed to ambulances--the only way you could get into the

ER was to walk in, because they were so busy. A large part of the reason

they're so busy is because people can't afford to go

to the doctor, so they go the the ER for fairly minor things--flu, earache,

stuff like that. A sign above the reception area said that there was a 5

hour wait for traumas, a 10 to 12 hour wait for non-traumas. ( " Oh, sorry

you're having a heart attack---we'll be with you in 3.5 hours! " ) Robby

waited for 12 hours before the DTs got so bad he left. I took him back a

few days later for another try, and this time he stayed the 14 hours it

took for them to get him admitted and started on adovan.

Lee is fortunate enough to have VA benefits. I took him to the VA hospital,

and they started to work on him within an hour. The VA hospitals are,of

course, socialized medicine. Now, they are FAR from perfect, and sometimes

the wait is bad (but a lot better than at the county hospital) and I'm sure

there are legions of horror stories about them, but: they kept my dad alive

for 12 years, they (actually, military hospitals, not the VA) saved both my

nephew's and my sister's lives, they've provided my family with hundreds of

thousands of dollars of health care which we would otherwise not have been

able to pay for, which would have resulted in the deaths of my family

members. If our members of Congress have socialized medicine, why can not

we? The military whose members are arch conservatives who rail against

socialism, enjoy the benefits of socialized medicine without batting an

eye. One of those good for the goose, good for the gander situations.

What does it matter how good and modern your machines are if people's basic

medical needs are going unmet because they can't afford basic health care?

Dixie

[Guest guest]

> Though I think it could be said that the European powers viewed

>China as merely a place they hadn't conquered yet.

I don't think so - they rapidly realised they could never subdue such

a vast and populous Empire that was still a local superpower even if

in decline.

> I was quite shocked when I went into a little room of the riding

>stable where I lived and worked outside Caernarfon, Wales, and found

>Gwyndaf holding a pistol. " You can have those? " I stammered. " It's

>legal? Cool! "

Well I was shocked when I read this, because ordinarily the only time

you'd see one in a Brit stable is when someone is going to blow a

horse's brains out. And if that wasnt the reason, then most Brits

would be stammering in fear not appreciation.

> Of course you have to belong to a gun club and a ton of other

>restrictions, and I'm not sure you can own pistols since the

>unfortunate ish incident.

By " unfortunate ish incident " I expect you mean the murder of 16

toddlers and their schoolteacher. Since then you are only allowed

small calibre single shot handguns, so now we know the calibre of the

hole to be made in the innocent child in the next unfortuante

incident and that the others will have a chance to run while the

murderer reloads.

>, but I was quite cheeried to discover that there are some

>Brits who own pistols. (Quite a few own shotguns, the better to hunt

>peasants in the Highlands with.)

Now why should you take heart in that particularly? Quite a lot of

ppl own shotguns, mostly farmers. One thing for certian though is

almost nobody has a gun for self-protection. Apply for a gun licence

and say you want it for self-protection and you'll almost certainly

not get it.

> I also remember reading something about crime and

> violence escalating whereever police started carrying firearms. I

>concluded from that that the way to make the U.S. safer would be to

>stop the police from carrying firearms. :-)

And everybody else. Apparently most US cops who get shot do so by

their own gun that has been taken from them. Similarly most illegal

weapons in the US come from burglaries of the homes of ppl who legally

own them for presumably just such an eventuality.

> And then, I also take more chances precisely

>because I have my pistol. I'm more likely to pick up a hitchhiker if

>I have a means of defending myself than if I don't.

But therein perhaps lies the problem. Better to have no gun and take

fewer risks maybe. biut as you say, this isnt a gun list.

> The second best health care I've ever received was when I was on

>National

> Health in Britain. I only used it a couple of times, but I got to

>see a doctor, I got the medication I needed, I didn't have to forego

>a prescription because I couldn't afford it, and my health didn't

>suffer because there was a doctor there when I needed one.

And you werent even a Brit and you got that for almost nothing. #if it

were up to me ppl wouldnt even pay a low prescription fee either; when

youre poor they can bite.

When Madonna made her famous statement that Brit hospitals were old

and out of date to have her baby in, and then had to when it arrived

early, she was judging by appearances. The buildings are old but the

care is good. Also the evidence actually shows that American " hi

tech " obstetrics is *not* good for mothers and babies. European less

hi-tech obstetrics has a better record, which is one thing that

Stanton Peele notes in " Diseasing of Amercia " .

Pete

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: communism

>

> >You are arguing with a man who says that young girls mostly from a

> >poor Jewish community only had themselves to blame for working in a

> >deathtrap sweatshop which took over 100 of their lives (NY Shirt Waist

> >company fire, c1920). As it happens I understand they were trying to

> >unionize and improve conditions. Doubtless coolguy would approve of

> >their employer's resistance. He concludes i am a communist

> >just because i condem Libertarianism and the politics of Ayn Rand.

>

> Thank you for clarifying.

>

> >I rather think that it is the influence of the IMF and other

> >international banks, which are considerably American influenced, to

> >put it mildy. That they were former European colonies has no more

> >modern siginificance than being a former British colony has on

> >America. Europe will take more imports just because it happens to be

> >the nearest Western countries; I have no doubt African diamonds go

> >everywhere, to be cut in Israel and sold in America for example. To

> >portray Europe as the villain of the piece while not mentioning

> >American influence is very unfair.

>

> You're correct for the most part--I was speaking more from an historical

> perspective, first half of the 20th century. But the damage of being the

> colony of a European state is perpetuated. the IMF has its policies

because

> the European farmers who began forcing their black workers to grow export

> crops persuaded the IMF to support export, not domestic agriculture.

Rwanda

> is such a mess in part because of the effects of the French forcing two

> disparate tribes to live together.

> And you're right, it was unfair of me not to mention american influence.

> But I was trying to sum up a large situation in a few words. The point is

> that Africa would not be the mess it is today, if European powers had not

> divided up the country, forced people out of agriculture for domestic

> consumption, and then abandoned their former colonies without setting up

> much of a democratic system. The policies of the IMF continue to play a

> huge role in Africa's continued hardships. It's a complex problem which I

> was trying to sum up in a sentence or two.

>

>

> >The so-called " Opium wars " were fought for a number of reasons,

> >principally to get diplomatic recognition from an Empire that thought

> >European countries were just places they hadnt conquered yet, and to

> >guarantee human rights for Europeans in China.

>

> Though I think it could be said that the European powers viewed China as

> merely a place they hadn't conquered yet. Again, the problem is deep,

> varied, and complex, not given well to one-sentence summations. But the

> point still holds--capitalism is not the end all and be all, it does not

> trump everything else, and it is dependent upon devaluing natural

resources

> and very often some form of colonialism.

>

> While not decided by any means, I am prepared to

> >accept that the unique situation in America may mean that whereas gun

> >control is good in the UK it may not be over there.

>

> I was quite shocked when I went into a little room of the riding stable

> where I lived and worked outside Caernarfon, Wales, and found Gwyndaf

> holding a pistol. " You can have those? " I stammered. " It's legal? Cool! "

Of

> course you have to belong to a gun club and a ton of other restrictions,

> and I'm not sure you can own pistols since the unfortunate ish

> incident, but I was quite cheeried to discover that there are some Brits

> who own pistols. (Quite a few own shotguns, the better to hunt peasants in

> the Highlands with.)

I'll have to remember not to look poor visiting the Highlands.

Dave Trippel

> Of course, i also remember the Welsh (female) police officer who was

> expressing grave doubts about remaining on the force if they would be made

> to carry firearms. I also remember reading something about crime and

> violence escalating whereever police started carrying firearms. I

concluded

> from that that the way to make the U.S. safer would be to stop the police

> from carrying firearms. :-)

>

> Seriously, pistols have gotten me out of some serious scrapes several

> times. There have been numerous occasions when people have tried to run my

> mother and sister off the road, and they were grateful they had their

> pistols with t hem. And then, I also take more chances precisely because I

> have my pistol. I'm more likely to pick up a hitchhiker if I have a means

> of defending myself than if I don't.

>

> But this is an addiction recovery list, not a gun list, so I'll stop now.

>

> Though, since you're apparently from the UK, I'll bring in alcoholism in a

> roundabout way:

> The best health care I ever received was as a student at the University of

> Texas at Austin. If I wasn't feeling well, I went to the Student Health

> Center and saw a doctor and got a prescription. Appointments could be made

> a week or two in advance. It certainly wasn't the place for major traumas,

> but for ordinary health care, it's the best health care I will ever

> receive.

> The second best health care I've ever received was when I was on National

> Health in Britain. I only used it a couple of times, but I got to see a

> doctor, I got the medication I needed, I didn't have to forego a

> prescription because I couldn't afford it, and my health didn't suffer

> because there was a doctor there when I needed one.

>

> For a long time, I didn't have insurance. Now I do. I had an asthma attack

> in late September. I wheezed for 2 days, unable to breathe well enough to

> talk normally, unable to get any sleep, before I relented and let my mom

> take me to the emergency room. A month and a half later, the hospital was

> threatening to turn me over to a collection agency unless I paid up. My

> deductible is $1500, so I couldn't come up with it all at once. The total

> bill was close to $1000, for 3 rounds of inhallent meds. A month later, I

> got another asthma attack, though not as bad as the first. I was back home

> by then (the first time was at my sister's in Virginia) and I called a

> doctor to make an appointment. The soonest appointment I could get was 2.5

> weeks away. " what am I to do about this asthma attack? " I asked. " Wheeze "

> was the reply. I had to change clothes 2 or 3 times a day because I would

> cough so violently I peed in my pants. My nights were wracked with

coughing

> and lack of breath. I had to wait almost 3 weeks to see the doctor. When I

> did, he gave me 2 prescriptions. I could only afford to fill one--the

other

> is $200 per month, an amount i can't afford.

>

> I've helped out a couple of alcoholic friends lately. I took Robby to the

> county hospital for detox. He had called an ambulance, but 7 hospitals in

> San were closed to ambulances--the only way you could get into the

> ER was to walk in, because they were so busy. A large part of the reason

> they're so busy is because people can't afford to go

> to the doctor, so they go the the ER for fairly minor things--flu,

earache,

> stuff like that. A sign above the reception area said that there was a 5

> hour wait for traumas, a 10 to 12 hour wait for non-traumas. ( " Oh, sorry

> you're having a heart attack---we'll be with you in 3.5 hours! " ) Robby

> waited for 12 hours before the DTs got so bad he left. I took him back a

> few days later for another try, and this time he stayed the 14 hours it

> took for them to get him admitted and started on adovan.

>

> Lee is fortunate enough to have VA benefits. I took him to the VA

hospital,

> and they started to work on him within an hour. The VA hospitals are,of

> course, socialized medicine. Now, they are FAR from perfect, and sometimes

> the wait is bad (but a lot better than at the county hospital) and I'm

sure

> there are legions of horror stories about them, but: they kept my dad

alive

> for 12 years, they (actually, military hospitals, not the VA) saved both

my

> nephew's and my sister's lives, they've provided my family with hundreds

of

> thousands of dollars of health care which we would otherwise not have been

> able to pay for, which would have resulted in the deaths of my family

> members. If our members of Congress have socialized medicine, why can not

> we? The military whose members are arch conservatives who rail against

> socialism, enjoy the benefits of socialized medicine without batting an

> eye. One of those good for the goose, good for the gander situations.

>

> What does it matter how good and modern your machines are if people's

basic

> medical needs are going unmet because they can't afford basic health

care?

> Dixie

>

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: communism

>

> >You are arguing with a man who says that young girls mostly from a

> >poor Jewish community only had themselves to blame for working in a

> >deathtrap sweatshop which took over 100 of their lives (NY Shirt Waist

> >company fire, c1920). As it happens I understand they were trying to

> >unionize and improve conditions. Doubtless coolguy would approve of

> >their employer's resistance. He concludes i am a communist

> >just because i condem Libertarianism and the politics of Ayn Rand.

>

> Thank you for clarifying.

>

> >I rather think that it is the influence of the IMF and other

> >international banks, which are considerably American influenced, to

> >put it mildy. That they were former European colonies has no more

> >modern siginificance than being a former British colony has on

> >America. Europe will take more imports just because it happens to be

> >the nearest Western countries; I have no doubt African diamonds go

> >everywhere, to be cut in Israel and sold in America for example. To

> >portray Europe as the villain of the piece while not mentioning

> >American influence is very unfair.

>

> You're correct for the most part--I was speaking more from an historical

> perspective, first half of the 20th century. But the damage of being the

> colony of a European state is perpetuated. the IMF has its policies

because

> the European farmers who began forcing their black workers to grow export

> crops persuaded the IMF to support export, not domestic agriculture.

Rwanda

> is such a mess in part because of the effects of the French forcing two

> disparate tribes to live together.

> And you're right, it was unfair of me not to mention american influence.

> But I was trying to sum up a large situation in a few words. The point is

> that Africa would not be the mess it is today, if European powers had not

> divided up the country, forced people out of agriculture for domestic

> consumption, and then abandoned their former colonies without setting up

> much of a democratic system. The policies of the IMF continue to play a

> huge role in Africa's continued hardships. It's a complex problem which I

> was trying to sum up in a sentence or two.

>

>

> >The so-called " Opium wars " were fought for a number of reasons,

> >principally to get diplomatic recognition from an Empire that thought

> >European countries were just places they hadnt conquered yet, and to

> >guarantee human rights for Europeans in China.

>

> Though I think it could be said that the European powers viewed China as

> merely a place they hadn't conquered yet. Again, the problem is deep,

> varied, and complex, not given well to one-sentence summations. But the

> point still holds--capitalism is not the end all and be all, it does not

> trump everything else, and it is dependent upon devaluing natural

resources

> and very often some form of colonialism.

>

> While not decided by any means, I am prepared to

> >accept that the unique situation in America may mean that whereas gun

> >control is good in the UK it may not be over there.

>

> I was quite shocked when I went into a little room of the riding stable

> where I lived and worked outside Caernarfon, Wales, and found Gwyndaf

> holding a pistol. " You can have those? " I stammered. " It's legal? Cool! "

Of

> course you have to belong to a gun club and a ton of other restrictions,

> and I'm not sure you can own pistols since the unfortunate ish

> incident, but I was quite cheeried to discover that there are some Brits

> who own pistols. (Quite a few own shotguns, the better to hunt peasants in

> the Highlands with.)

I'll have to remember not to look poor visiting the Highlands.

Dave Trippel

> Of course, i also remember the Welsh (female) police officer who was

> expressing grave doubts about remaining on the force if they would be made

> to carry firearms. I also remember reading something about crime and

> violence escalating whereever police started carrying firearms. I

concluded

> from that that the way to make the U.S. safer would be to stop the police

> from carrying firearms. :-)

>

> Seriously, pistols have gotten me out of some serious scrapes several

> times. There have been numerous occasions when people have tried to run my

> mother and sister off the road, and they were grateful they had their

> pistols with t hem. And then, I also take more chances precisely because I

> have my pistol. I'm more likely to pick up a hitchhiker if I have a means

> of defending myself than if I don't.

>

> But this is an addiction recovery list, not a gun list, so I'll stop now.

>

> Though, since you're apparently from the UK, I'll bring in alcoholism in a

> roundabout way:

> The best health care I ever received was as a student at the University of

> Texas at Austin. If I wasn't feeling well, I went to the Student Health

> Center and saw a doctor and got a prescription. Appointments could be made

> a week or two in advance. It certainly wasn't the place for major traumas,

> but for ordinary health care, it's the best health care I will ever

> receive.

> The second best health care I've ever received was when I was on National

> Health in Britain. I only used it a couple of times, but I got to see a

> doctor, I got the medication I needed, I didn't have to forego a

> prescription because I couldn't afford it, and my health didn't suffer

> because there was a doctor there when I needed one.

>

> For a long time, I didn't have insurance. Now I do. I had an asthma attack

> in late September. I wheezed for 2 days, unable to breathe well enough to

> talk normally, unable to get any sleep, before I relented and let my mom

> take me to the emergency room. A month and a half later, the hospital was

> threatening to turn me over to a collection agency unless I paid up. My

> deductible is $1500, so I couldn't come up with it all at once. The total

> bill was close to $1000, for 3 rounds of inhallent meds. A month later, I

> got another asthma attack, though not as bad as the first. I was back home

> by then (the first time was at my sister's in Virginia) and I called a

> doctor to make an appointment. The soonest appointment I could get was 2.5

> weeks away. " what am I to do about this asthma attack? " I asked. " Wheeze "

> was the reply. I had to change clothes 2 or 3 times a day because I would

> cough so violently I peed in my pants. My nights were wracked with

coughing

> and lack of breath. I had to wait almost 3 weeks to see the doctor. When I

> did, he gave me 2 prescriptions. I could only afford to fill one--the

other

> is $200 per month, an amount i can't afford.

>

> I've helped out a couple of alcoholic friends lately. I took Robby to the

> county hospital for detox. He had called an ambulance, but 7 hospitals in

> San were closed to ambulances--the only way you could get into the

> ER was to walk in, because they were so busy. A large part of the reason

> they're so busy is because people can't afford to go

> to the doctor, so they go the the ER for fairly minor things--flu,

earache,

> stuff like that. A sign above the reception area said that there was a 5

> hour wait for traumas, a 10 to 12 hour wait for non-traumas. ( " Oh, sorry

> you're having a heart attack---we'll be with you in 3.5 hours! " ) Robby

> waited for 12 hours before the DTs got so bad he left. I took him back a

> few days later for another try, and this time he stayed the 14 hours it

> took for them to get him admitted and started on adovan.

>

> Lee is fortunate enough to have VA benefits. I took him to the VA

hospital,

> and they started to work on him within an hour. The VA hospitals are,of

> course, socialized medicine. Now, they are FAR from perfect, and sometimes

> the wait is bad (but a lot better than at the county hospital) and I'm

sure

> there are legions of horror stories about them, but: they kept my dad

alive

> for 12 years, they (actually, military hospitals, not the VA) saved both

my

> nephew's and my sister's lives, they've provided my family with hundreds

of

> thousands of dollars of health care which we would otherwise not have been

> able to pay for, which would have resulted in the deaths of my family

> members. If our members of Congress have socialized medicine, why can not

> we? The military whose members are arch conservatives who rail against

> socialism, enjoy the benefits of socialized medicine without batting an

> eye. One of those good for the goose, good for the gander situations.

>

> What does it matter how good and modern your machines are if people's

basic

> medical needs are going unmet because they can't afford basic health

care?

> Dixie

>

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: communism

>

> >You are arguing with a man who says that young girls mostly from a

> >poor Jewish community only had themselves to blame for working in a

> >deathtrap sweatshop which took over 100 of their lives (NY Shirt Waist

> >company fire, c1920). As it happens I understand they were trying to

> >unionize and improve conditions. Doubtless coolguy would approve of

> >their employer's resistance. He concludes i am a communist

> >just because i condem Libertarianism and the politics of Ayn Rand.

>

> Thank you for clarifying.

>

> >I rather think that it is the influence of the IMF and other

> >international banks, which are considerably American influenced, to

> >put it mildy. That they were former European colonies has no more

> >modern siginificance than being a former British colony has on

> >America. Europe will take more imports just because it happens to be

> >the nearest Western countries; I have no doubt African diamonds go

> >everywhere, to be cut in Israel and sold in America for example. To

> >portray Europe as the villain of the piece while not mentioning

> >American influence is very unfair.

>

> You're correct for the most part--I was speaking more from an historical

> perspective, first half of the 20th century. But the damage of being the

> colony of a European state is perpetuated. the IMF has its policies

because

> the European farmers who began forcing their black workers to grow export

> crops persuaded the IMF to support export, not domestic agriculture.

Rwanda

> is such a mess in part because of the effects of the French forcing two

> disparate tribes to live together.

> And you're right, it was unfair of me not to mention american influence.

> But I was trying to sum up a large situation in a few words. The point is

> that Africa would not be the mess it is today, if European powers had not

> divided up the country, forced people out of agriculture for domestic

> consumption, and then abandoned their former colonies without setting up

> much of a democratic system. The policies of the IMF continue to play a

> huge role in Africa's continued hardships. It's a complex problem which I

> was trying to sum up in a sentence or two.

>

>

> >The so-called " Opium wars " were fought for a number of reasons,

> >principally to get diplomatic recognition from an Empire that thought

> >European countries were just places they hadnt conquered yet, and to

> >guarantee human rights for Europeans in China.

>

> Though I think it could be said that the European powers viewed China as

> merely a place they hadn't conquered yet. Again, the problem is deep,

> varied, and complex, not given well to one-sentence summations. But the

> point still holds--capitalism is not the end all and be all, it does not

> trump everything else, and it is dependent upon devaluing natural

resources

> and very often some form of colonialism.

>

> While not decided by any means, I am prepared to

> >accept that the unique situation in America may mean that whereas gun

> >control is good in the UK it may not be over there.

>

> I was quite shocked when I went into a little room of the riding stable

> where I lived and worked outside Caernarfon, Wales, and found Gwyndaf

> holding a pistol. " You can have those? " I stammered. " It's legal? Cool! "

Of

> course you have to belong to a gun club and a ton of other restrictions,

> and I'm not sure you can own pistols since the unfortunate ish

> incident, but I was quite cheeried to discover that there are some Brits

> who own pistols. (Quite a few own shotguns, the better to hunt peasants in

> the Highlands with.)

I'll have to remember not to look poor visiting the Highlands.

Dave Trippel

> Of course, i also remember the Welsh (female) police officer who was

> expressing grave doubts about remaining on the force if they would be made

> to carry firearms. I also remember reading something about crime and

> violence escalating whereever police started carrying firearms. I

concluded

> from that that the way to make the U.S. safer would be to stop the police

> from carrying firearms. :-)

>

> Seriously, pistols have gotten me out of some serious scrapes several

> times. There have been numerous occasions when people have tried to run my

> mother and sister off the road, and they were grateful they had their

> pistols with t hem. And then, I also take more chances precisely because I

> have my pistol. I'm more likely to pick up a hitchhiker if I have a means

> of defending myself than if I don't.

>

> But this is an addiction recovery list, not a gun list, so I'll stop now.

>

> Though, since you're apparently from the UK, I'll bring in alcoholism in a

> roundabout way:

> The best health care I ever received was as a student at the University of

> Texas at Austin. If I wasn't feeling well, I went to the Student Health

> Center and saw a doctor and got a prescription. Appointments could be made

> a week or two in advance. It certainly wasn't the place for major traumas,

> but for ordinary health care, it's the best health care I will ever

> receive.

> The second best health care I've ever received was when I was on National

> Health in Britain. I only used it a couple of times, but I got to see a

> doctor, I got the medication I needed, I didn't have to forego a

> prescription because I couldn't afford it, and my health didn't suffer

> because there was a doctor there when I needed one.

>

> For a long time, I didn't have insurance. Now I do. I had an asthma attack

> in late September. I wheezed for 2 days, unable to breathe well enough to

> talk normally, unable to get any sleep, before I relented and let my mom

> take me to the emergency room. A month and a half later, the hospital was

> threatening to turn me over to a collection agency unless I paid up. My

> deductible is $1500, so I couldn't come up with it all at once. The total

> bill was close to $1000, for 3 rounds of inhallent meds. A month later, I

> got another asthma attack, though not as bad as the first. I was back home

> by then (the first time was at my sister's in Virginia) and I called a

> doctor to make an appointment. The soonest appointment I could get was 2.5

> weeks away. " what am I to do about this asthma attack? " I asked. " Wheeze "

> was the reply. I had to change clothes 2 or 3 times a day because I would

> cough so violently I peed in my pants. My nights were wracked with

coughing

> and lack of breath. I had to wait almost 3 weeks to see the doctor. When I

> did, he gave me 2 prescriptions. I could only afford to fill one--the

other

> is $200 per month, an amount i can't afford.

>

> I've helped out a couple of alcoholic friends lately. I took Robby to the

> county hospital for detox. He had called an ambulance, but 7 hospitals in

> San were closed to ambulances--the only way you could get into the

> ER was to walk in, because they were so busy. A large part of the reason

> they're so busy is because people can't afford to go

> to the doctor, so they go the the ER for fairly minor things--flu,

earache,

> stuff like that. A sign above the reception area said that there was a 5

> hour wait for traumas, a 10 to 12 hour wait for non-traumas. ( " Oh, sorry

> you're having a heart attack---we'll be with you in 3.5 hours! " ) Robby

> waited for 12 hours before the DTs got so bad he left. I took him back a

> few days later for another try, and this time he stayed the 14 hours it

> took for them to get him admitted and started on adovan.

>

> Lee is fortunate enough to have VA benefits. I took him to the VA

hospital,

> and they started to work on him within an hour. The VA hospitals are,of

> course, socialized medicine. Now, they are FAR from perfect, and sometimes

> the wait is bad (but a lot better than at the county hospital) and I'm

sure

> there are legions of horror stories about them, but: they kept my dad

alive

> for 12 years, they (actually, military hospitals, not the VA) saved both

my

> nephew's and my sister's lives, they've provided my family with hundreds

of

> thousands of dollars of health care which we would otherwise not have been

> able to pay for, which would have resulted in the deaths of my family

> members. If our members of Congress have socialized medicine, why can not

> we? The military whose members are arch conservatives who rail against

> socialism, enjoy the benefits of socialized medicine without batting an

> eye. One of those good for the goose, good for the gander situations.

>

> What does it matter how good and modern your machines are if people's

basic

> medical needs are going unmet because they can't afford basic health

care?

> Dixie

>

[Guest guest]

Re: communism

> When Madonna made her famous statement that Brit hospitals were old

> and out of date to have her baby in, and then had to when it arrived

> early, she was judging by appearances. The buildings are old but the

> care is good. Also the evidence actually shows that American " hi

> tech " obstetrics is *not* good for mothers and babies. European less

> hi-tech obstetrics has a better record, which is one thing that

> Stanton Peele notes in " Diseasing of Amercia " .

>

> Pete

>

So, high tech psychiatry is good, but high tech obstectrics is bad. I think

this is a case of manipulating statistics.

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

Re: communism

> When Madonna made her famous statement that Brit hospitals were old

> and out of date to have her baby in, and then had to when it arrived

> early, she was judging by appearances. The buildings are old but the

> care is good. Also the evidence actually shows that American " hi

> tech " obstetrics is *not* good for mothers and babies. European less

> hi-tech obstetrics has a better record, which is one thing that

> Stanton Peele notes in " Diseasing of Amercia " .

>

> Pete

>

So, high tech psychiatry is good, but high tech obstectrics is bad. I think

this is a case of manipulating statistics.

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

Re: communism

> When Madonna made her famous statement that Brit hospitals were old

> and out of date to have her baby in, and then had to when it arrived

> early, she was judging by appearances. The buildings are old but the

> care is good. Also the evidence actually shows that American " hi

> tech " obstetrics is *not* good for mothers and babies. European less

> hi-tech obstetrics has a better record, which is one thing that

> Stanton Peele notes in " Diseasing of Amercia " .

>

> Pete

>

So, high tech psychiatry is good, but high tech obstectrics is bad. I think

this is a case of manipulating statistics.

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

PW:

> He concludes i am a communist

> just because i condem Libertarianism and the politics of Ayn

> Rand.

DT:

> > Thank you for clarifying.

In case it still isn't clear, I have not advocated communism on this

list and there are no grounds for saying that I have.

[Guest guest]

PW:

> He concludes i am a communist

> just because i condem Libertarianism and the politics of Ayn

> Rand.

DT:

> > Thank you for clarifying.

In case it still isn't clear, I have not advocated communism on this

list and there are no grounds for saying that I have.

[Guest guest]

PW:

> He concludes i am a communist

> just because i condem Libertarianism and the politics of Ayn

> Rand.

DT:

> > Thank you for clarifying.

In case it still isn't clear, I have not advocated communism on this

list and there are no grounds for saying that I have.

[Guest guest]

>

> So, high tech psychiatry is good, but high tech obstectrics is bad.

>I think this is a case of manipulating statistics.

No Dave, Its knowing them. The statistics generally support American

psychiatric practice (apart from addiction treatment, that is) and

dont support obstetric practice. No " manipulation " here. It's

perfectly possible for one modern medical practice to be good and

another bad. If you werent such an antipsychiatry fanatic you wouldnt

make such silly knee jerk reactions and see how obvious that

possibility is. You grasp at silly straws like a grouper defending

steppism. Cant think of something to say, say anything.

[Guest guest]

>

> So, high tech psychiatry is good, but high tech obstectrics is bad.

>I think this is a case of manipulating statistics.

No Dave, Its knowing them. The statistics generally support American

psychiatric practice (apart from addiction treatment, that is) and

dont support obstetric practice. No " manipulation " here. It's

perfectly possible for one modern medical practice to be good and

another bad. If you werent such an antipsychiatry fanatic you wouldnt

make such silly knee jerk reactions and see how obvious that

possibility is. You grasp at silly straws like a grouper defending

steppism. Cant think of something to say, say anything.

[Guest guest]

>

> So, high tech psychiatry is good, but high tech obstectrics is bad.

>I think this is a case of manipulating statistics.

No Dave, Its knowing them. The statistics generally support American

psychiatric practice (apart from addiction treatment, that is) and

dont support obstetric practice. No " manipulation " here. It's

perfectly possible for one modern medical practice to be good and

another bad. If you werent such an antipsychiatry fanatic you wouldnt

make such silly knee jerk reactions and see how obvious that

possibility is. You grasp at silly straws like a grouper defending

steppism. Cant think of something to say, say anything.

[Guest guest]

Re: communism

>

>

> >

> > So, high tech psychiatry is good, but high tech obstectrics is bad.

> >I think this is a case of manipulating statistics.

>

> No Dave, Its knowing them. The statistics generally support American

> psychiatric practice (apart from addiction treatment, that is) and

> dont support obstetric practice. No " manipulation " here. It's

> perfectly possible for one modern medical practice to be good and

> another bad. If you werent such an antipsychiatry fanatic you wouldnt

> make such silly knee jerk reactions and see how obvious that

> possibility is. You grasp at silly straws like a grouper defending

> steppism. Cant think of something to say, say anything.

>

Pete,

Maybe you need a little more sleep. You tend to label people fairly

extremely. I can imagine how YOU might think I'm an antipsychiatry fanatic,

but I'm not. I think Szasz's views should be given due respect.

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

Re: communism

>

>

> >

> > So, high tech psychiatry is good, but high tech obstectrics is bad.

> >I think this is a case of manipulating statistics.

>

> No Dave, Its knowing them. The statistics generally support American

> psychiatric practice (apart from addiction treatment, that is) and

> dont support obstetric practice. No " manipulation " here. It's

> perfectly possible for one modern medical practice to be good and

> another bad. If you werent such an antipsychiatry fanatic you wouldnt

> make such silly knee jerk reactions and see how obvious that

> possibility is. You grasp at silly straws like a grouper defending

> steppism. Cant think of something to say, say anything.

>

Pete,

Maybe you need a little more sleep. You tend to label people fairly

extremely. I can imagine how YOU might think I'm an antipsychiatry fanatic,

but I'm not. I think Szasz's views should be given due respect.

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

Re: communism

>

>

> >

> > So, high tech psychiatry is good, but high tech obstectrics is bad.

> >I think this is a case of manipulating statistics.

>

> No Dave, Its knowing them. The statistics generally support American

> psychiatric practice (apart from addiction treatment, that is) and

> dont support obstetric practice. No " manipulation " here. It's

> perfectly possible for one modern medical practice to be good and

> another bad. If you werent such an antipsychiatry fanatic you wouldnt

> make such silly knee jerk reactions and see how obvious that

> possibility is. You grasp at silly straws like a grouper defending

> steppism. Cant think of something to say, say anything.

>

Pete,

Maybe you need a little more sleep. You tend to label people fairly

extremely. I can imagine how YOU might think I'm an antipsychiatry fanatic,

but I'm not. I think Szasz's views should be given due respect.

Dave Trippel

[Guest guest]

> Pete,

>

> Maybe you need a little more sleep. You tend to label people fairly

> extremely. I can imagine how YOU might think I'm an antipsychiatry

fanatic,

> but I'm not. I think Szasz's views should be given due respect.

Of course, there was nothing extreme in you labelling me a " fully

fledged stepper " was there? No. of orthodox Shrinks in the Western

World: Several thousand. Number of Szasz and Laing: 2. I give his

views the respect they deserve. You dont seem very respectful of the

views of his colleagues. As I said before, I can scarcely believe

someone can have his views who has ever met a seriously shizophrenic

patient.

[Guest guest]

> Pete,

>

> Maybe you need a little more sleep. You tend to label people fairly

> extremely. I can imagine how YOU might think I'm an antipsychiatry

fanatic,

> but I'm not. I think Szasz's views should be given due respect.

Of course, there was nothing extreme in you labelling me a " fully

fledged stepper " was there? No. of orthodox Shrinks in the Western

World: Several thousand. Number of Szasz and Laing: 2. I give his

views the respect they deserve. You dont seem very respectful of the

views of his colleagues. As I said before, I can scarcely believe

someone can have his views who has ever met a seriously shizophrenic

patient.

[Guest guest]

> Pete,

>

> Maybe you need a little more sleep. You tend to label people fairly

> extremely. I can imagine how YOU might think I'm an antipsychiatry

fanatic,

> but I'm not. I think Szasz's views should be given due respect.

Of course, there was nothing extreme in you labelling me a " fully

fledged stepper " was there? No. of orthodox Shrinks in the Western

World: Several thousand. Number of Szasz and Laing: 2. I give his

views the respect they deserve. You dont seem very respectful of the

views of his colleagues. As I said before, I can scarcely believe

someone can have his views who has ever met a seriously shizophrenic

patient.

[Guest guest]

> Well, I suggest you immediately stop using the internet, because the

> internet is a government-financed thing. If we had continued at

taxation

> levels of 10%, we would never have had the internet, and probably

would not

> yet have computers. We would not have put a person on the moon, we

would

> not have conquered many of the diseases that the 20th Century has

> controlled. If you notice, we have progressed far more in the 20th

century

> than in any century prior. Think there's a connection?

OK, Dixie, lets use the airplane for example. The Brothers

very well might not have been the first at powered flight, and much

controversy surounds the issue even today. There was a race at the

time and a man by the name of Langley was armed with a $60K+

federal grant. The Brothers received not a penny from any

government. Both Langley and the Brothers knew that when

learning to fly, a soft surface to land on would be an asset. Langley

chose to spend his money on a big boat, knowing the water was soft.

His plane promply landed nose down in the Potomac River and that was

the end of that. The s chose to travel hundreds of miles where

the sand dunes would cushion their inevitable initial bumps. I

suppose this means that we never would have had airplanes if it were

not for government grants. Come to think of it there was no income

tax in 1903. The U.S. Supreme Court had declared it unconstitutional

less than a decade earlier. It took a constitutional amendment to add

this " freedom " to the list.