Re: Re: reponse to need some advice

[Guest guest]

Dave,

Its , no I havent drank in a week. Yes Im interested in other forms of recovery. Right now Im reading, RR by Jack Trimpey. I like it. Tomarrow Im going to get the book by Ken have you read it? If so whats the jist of it?

I also want to get s book.

Do you know of anything that could help me like books, sites, ect.

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

Dave,

Its , no I havent drank in a week. Yes Im interested in other forms of recovery. Right now Im reading, RR by Jack Trimpey. I like it. Tomarrow Im going to get the book by Ken have you read it? If so whats the jist of it?

I also want to get s book.

Do you know of anything that could help me like books, sites, ect.

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

Dave,

Its , no I havent drank in a week. Yes Im interested in other forms of recovery. Right now Im reading, RR by Jack Trimpey. I like it. Tomarrow Im going to get the book by Ken have you read it? If so whats the jist of it?

I also want to get s book.

Do you know of anything that could help me like books, sites, ect.

Thanks,

[Guest guest]

Ken's book was really good. Part I remember best was about the " disease

concept of alcoholism " and its circular definition. You really need to read

that part. It goes something like the definition of alcoholic = someone who

can not control their drinking. So if you can't control your drinking (and

lots of people think they can't because that is what they are told so many

times (by judges, doctors, family, TV, society at large)) you must be an

alcoholic. Since it is a disease (a lifelong disease that can't be cured)

that can only be treated by the 12 steps, you must do the 12 steps or else

you'll drink (and soon die or end up in jail). Anybody that quits drinking

or begins to control their drinking must never have been a true alcoholic,

because he wouldn't be able " to beat the disease " without the 12 steps. I

didn't say it very well, but reading that chapter of (actually just a couple

very well worded paragraphs in) Ken's book has totally changed my outlook on

life, drinking, partying, etc. I learned that the disease theory is nothing

more than a theory (it has never been proven, very little has been found to

support in the past 50 years, despite millions being spent). In my mind it

is a false theory, eventually it will be proved incorrect, but AA and the

chemical dependency treatment industry need that theory and strongly support

it so that they may stay " in business. " Anyone who speaks against it is " in

denial " or just " doesn't know the facts " (when there are no facts, only

theories! ha!). These guys make me sick. They fuck people up, and then

tell them they are fucked up. Read what you need to read, get over it, and

start enjoying life. You'll probably enjoy it more than you ever have

before once you stop trying to appease these other fucked up people and stop

trying to follow their ridiculous suggestions, and stop wasting your time

instead of utilizing it.

Re: reponse to need some advice

> Hi :

> Ken's book is a super one. That was the one I read that helped me never

> to set foot in those meetings again. I also liked " Combatting Cult

> Mind Control " by Hassan. The Book " Many Roads One Journey " by

> Charlotte Kasl was also good because it looks at the recovery

> phenomenon from a feminist perspective, but maybe that wouldn't be a

> good one at this juncture, since it looks at the pros and cons of the

> recovery movement. It may be better to just distance yourself from the

> groups completely now instead of looking at beneficial re-

> interpretations which may pull you back. Also, nne Gilliams " How

> Alcoholics Anonymous Failed Me " is a good one.

>

> A she-stepper wrote to my site saying that Alcoholics Anonymous failed

> Gilliam because she had other addictions (food and cocaine in addition

> to alcohol), so she should have gone to OA and CA if she wanted to

> " recover " (c'mon now, one word of their 12 steps is changed in these

> programs while the techniques stay the same!). The she-stepper also

> felt that since MG was able to use alcohol sensibly after she got to

> the root of her problems proves that she was never an alcoholic to

> begin with.

>

> It's funny, but when I tried drinking again about a year after leaving

> AA, and found that it was not getting me in trouble nor was I abusing

> it as I used to in the past, some people said " maybe you were never an

> alcoholic to begin with " . I don't think I was " alcoholic " , but had

> just gotten caught up in the partying lifestyle during college, and

> while a period of abstinance was useful to me, adopting the lifetime

> label of alcoholic certainly wasn't.

> Apple

>

>

> > Dave,

> >

> > Its , no I havent drank in a week. Yes Im interested in other

forms

> > of recovery. Right now Im reading, RR by Jack Trimpey. I like it.

Tomarrow

> > Im going to get the book by Ken have you read it? If so whats the jist

of

> > it?

> > I also want to get s book.

> >

> > Do you know of anything that could help me like books, sites, ect.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ken's book was really good. Part I remember best was about the " disease

concept of alcoholism " and its circular definition. You really need to read

that part. It goes something like the definition of alcoholic = someone who

can not control their drinking. So if you can't control your drinking (and

lots of people think they can't because that is what they are told so many

times (by judges, doctors, family, TV, society at large)) you must be an

alcoholic. Since it is a disease (a lifelong disease that can't be cured)

that can only be treated by the 12 steps, you must do the 12 steps or else

you'll drink (and soon die or end up in jail). Anybody that quits drinking

or begins to control their drinking must never have been a true alcoholic,

because he wouldn't be able " to beat the disease " without the 12 steps. I

didn't say it very well, but reading that chapter of (actually just a couple

very well worded paragraphs in) Ken's book has totally changed my outlook on

life, drinking, partying, etc. I learned that the disease theory is nothing

more than a theory (it has never been proven, very little has been found to

support in the past 50 years, despite millions being spent). In my mind it

is a false theory, eventually it will be proved incorrect, but AA and the

chemical dependency treatment industry need that theory and strongly support

it so that they may stay " in business. " Anyone who speaks against it is " in

denial " or just " doesn't know the facts " (when there are no facts, only

theories! ha!). These guys make me sick. They fuck people up, and then

tell them they are fucked up. Read what you need to read, get over it, and

start enjoying life. You'll probably enjoy it more than you ever have

before once you stop trying to appease these other fucked up people and stop

trying to follow their ridiculous suggestions, and stop wasting your time

instead of utilizing it.

Re: reponse to need some advice

> Hi :

> Ken's book is a super one. That was the one I read that helped me never

> to set foot in those meetings again. I also liked " Combatting Cult

> Mind Control " by Hassan. The Book " Many Roads One Journey " by

> Charlotte Kasl was also good because it looks at the recovery

> phenomenon from a feminist perspective, but maybe that wouldn't be a

> good one at this juncture, since it looks at the pros and cons of the

> recovery movement. It may be better to just distance yourself from the

> groups completely now instead of looking at beneficial re-

> interpretations which may pull you back. Also, nne Gilliams " How

> Alcoholics Anonymous Failed Me " is a good one.

>

> A she-stepper wrote to my site saying that Alcoholics Anonymous failed

> Gilliam because she had other addictions (food and cocaine in addition

> to alcohol), so she should have gone to OA and CA if she wanted to

> " recover " (c'mon now, one word of their 12 steps is changed in these

> programs while the techniques stay the same!). The she-stepper also

> felt that since MG was able to use alcohol sensibly after she got to

> the root of her problems proves that she was never an alcoholic to

> begin with.

>

> It's funny, but when I tried drinking again about a year after leaving

> AA, and found that it was not getting me in trouble nor was I abusing

> it as I used to in the past, some people said " maybe you were never an

> alcoholic to begin with " . I don't think I was " alcoholic " , but had

> just gotten caught up in the partying lifestyle during college, and

> while a period of abstinance was useful to me, adopting the lifetime

> label of alcoholic certainly wasn't.

> Apple

>

>

> > Dave,

> >

> > Its , no I havent drank in a week. Yes Im interested in other

forms

> > of recovery. Right now Im reading, RR by Jack Trimpey. I like it.

Tomarrow

> > Im going to get the book by Ken have you read it? If so whats the jist

of

> > it?

> > I also want to get s book.

> >

> > Do you know of anything that could help me like books, sites, ect.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Ken's book was really good. Part I remember best was about the " disease

concept of alcoholism " and its circular definition. You really need to read

that part. It goes something like the definition of alcoholic = someone who

can not control their drinking. So if you can't control your drinking (and

lots of people think they can't because that is what they are told so many

times (by judges, doctors, family, TV, society at large)) you must be an

alcoholic. Since it is a disease (a lifelong disease that can't be cured)

that can only be treated by the 12 steps, you must do the 12 steps or else

you'll drink (and soon die or end up in jail). Anybody that quits drinking

or begins to control their drinking must never have been a true alcoholic,

because he wouldn't be able " to beat the disease " without the 12 steps. I

didn't say it very well, but reading that chapter of (actually just a couple

very well worded paragraphs in) Ken's book has totally changed my outlook on

life, drinking, partying, etc. I learned that the disease theory is nothing

more than a theory (it has never been proven, very little has been found to

support in the past 50 years, despite millions being spent). In my mind it

is a false theory, eventually it will be proved incorrect, but AA and the

chemical dependency treatment industry need that theory and strongly support

it so that they may stay " in business. " Anyone who speaks against it is " in

denial " or just " doesn't know the facts " (when there are no facts, only

theories! ha!). These guys make me sick. They fuck people up, and then

tell them they are fucked up. Read what you need to read, get over it, and

start enjoying life. You'll probably enjoy it more than you ever have

before once you stop trying to appease these other fucked up people and stop

trying to follow their ridiculous suggestions, and stop wasting your time

instead of utilizing it.

Re: reponse to need some advice

> Hi :

> Ken's book is a super one. That was the one I read that helped me never

> to set foot in those meetings again. I also liked " Combatting Cult

> Mind Control " by Hassan. The Book " Many Roads One Journey " by

> Charlotte Kasl was also good because it looks at the recovery

> phenomenon from a feminist perspective, but maybe that wouldn't be a

> good one at this juncture, since it looks at the pros and cons of the

> recovery movement. It may be better to just distance yourself from the

> groups completely now instead of looking at beneficial re-

> interpretations which may pull you back. Also, nne Gilliams " How

> Alcoholics Anonymous Failed Me " is a good one.

>

> A she-stepper wrote to my site saying that Alcoholics Anonymous failed

> Gilliam because she had other addictions (food and cocaine in addition

> to alcohol), so she should have gone to OA and CA if she wanted to

> " recover " (c'mon now, one word of their 12 steps is changed in these

> programs while the techniques stay the same!). The she-stepper also

> felt that since MG was able to use alcohol sensibly after she got to

> the root of her problems proves that she was never an alcoholic to

> begin with.

>

> It's funny, but when I tried drinking again about a year after leaving

> AA, and found that it was not getting me in trouble nor was I abusing

> it as I used to in the past, some people said " maybe you were never an

> alcoholic to begin with " . I don't think I was " alcoholic " , but had

> just gotten caught up in the partying lifestyle during college, and

> while a period of abstinance was useful to me, adopting the lifetime

> label of alcoholic certainly wasn't.

> Apple

>

>

> > Dave,

> >

> > Its , no I havent drank in a week. Yes Im interested in other

forms

> > of recovery. Right now Im reading, RR by Jack Trimpey. I like it.

Tomarrow

> > Im going to get the book by Ken have you read it? If so whats the jist

of

> > it?

> > I also want to get s book.

> >

> > Do you know of anything that could help me like books, sites, ect.

> >

> > Thanks,

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Apple,

Its . Thanks for the input. I havent drank now for over a week and Im feeling pretty good. Its been hard though, feeling the rejection from AA, but I know I will be better for it in the long run.

I see a therapist and she was quite happy when I told her I completely left.

In her opinion, she feels those people are afraid to live and she now understands how it is patriarchal. Its funny but Ive been to 9 Tx centers and almost all of them could not see how that program can cause far more damage for some than help. My current therapist is the ONLY one that is willing to hear me out. Part of it may be that she is not TX affeliated and also that she is hispanic. I am hispanic too. AA would time and again say your just using that as an excuse not to work the program, I would say, no the program doesnt work for me. I tried over and over to work that program and all I ever heard was judgement if I stated my opinion like on women issues ect. it never felt right.

Im so amazed how many people have no clue what AA is really about. Most think its just people that support each othe through some rough times.

Little do they know. Why do you think its been so misinterpeted and do you think this will change. How can I help to let the public know the truth?

[Guest guest]

Apple,

Its . Thanks for the input. I havent drank now for over a week and Im feeling pretty good. Its been hard though, feeling the rejection from AA, but I know I will be better for it in the long run.

I see a therapist and she was quite happy when I told her I completely left.

In her opinion, she feels those people are afraid to live and she now understands how it is patriarchal. Its funny but Ive been to 9 Tx centers and almost all of them could not see how that program can cause far more damage for some than help. My current therapist is the ONLY one that is willing to hear me out. Part of it may be that she is not TX affeliated and also that she is hispanic. I am hispanic too. AA would time and again say your just using that as an excuse not to work the program, I would say, no the program doesnt work for me. I tried over and over to work that program and all I ever heard was judgement if I stated my opinion like on women issues ect. it never felt right.

Im so amazed how many people have no clue what AA is really about. Most think its just people that support each othe through some rough times.

Little do they know. Why do you think its been so misinterpeted and do you think this will change. How can I help to let the public know the truth?

[Guest guest]

It may seem surprising that treatment centers are almost universally blind

to the defects of the 12-step approach. It is less surprising once you

realize that the entire treatment movement as it exists today in the USA is

an AA construction, derived from lobbying, propaganda, organization,

investment, and staffing by steppers going back as far as 60 years ago.

--wally

Re: Re: reponse to need some advice

..... Its funny but Ive been to 9 Tx centers

and almost all of them could not see how that program can cause far more

damage for some than help...

[Guest guest]

It may seem surprising that treatment centers are almost universally blind

to the defects of the 12-step approach. It is less surprising once you

realize that the entire treatment movement as it exists today in the USA is

an AA construction, derived from lobbying, propaganda, organization,

investment, and staffing by steppers going back as far as 60 years ago.

--wally

Re: Re: reponse to need some advice

..... Its funny but Ive been to 9 Tx centers

and almost all of them could not see how that program can cause far more

damage for some than help...

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Well, when I first started seeing her, she told me what she thought of AA.

she felt that the people in AA lived a life of chaos. They stay in a cycle, and if you ever noticed when you attended, they seem to enjoy hearing about other peoples miserys.

And at that time I was so into Aa I totally defended them. Then I started to see what she was saying.

I shared with her some of my relationships with the women in the program and felt it caused me more problems than helped me. One girl in particular: I have been abused by men and this person who I thought was a friend of mine always seemed to date men in AA or NA that had been convicted of rape. She would justify their actions by saying (the whole blame the victim mentallity) the woman asked for it.

She couldn't understand why I didn't want to be around her when she was with these men. I was friends with her for 4 years, until recently when I realized I wasn't respecting myself by trying to have her see my point of view. Anyway, when I told my therapist about this she was amazed. And I went on to tell her of so manjy other predators in AA of NA and how the woman just say "well she placed herself in a position to be raped, beat whatever."

And of course these sick men love that. Not only do the women do that, then they throw in your face some things that you have done like maybe sleeping with someone you didn't know that well and tell you take a look in your own backyard. I'm sorry having sex with someone you don't know and raping or molesting somebody are quite different.

My therapist just believes these people stay in a sick cycle that they usually dont come out of.

I see it all the time the people that have been going to AA since I first started about 6 years ago are still having the same problems they had 6 years ago! It's ridiculous. And they think because they have more sobriety than me their going to help me! Its like, well Jim over there has 7 years or whatever, and under their breath yeah he was convicted of rape but hey he can stay sober. though well shes a nice person with a good heart but she only has a week so stay away from her. lol they are HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!!!

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Well, when I first started seeing her, she told me what she thought of AA.

she felt that the people in AA lived a life of chaos. They stay in a cycle, and if you ever noticed when you attended, they seem to enjoy hearing about other peoples miserys.

And at that time I was so into Aa I totally defended them. Then I started to see what she was saying.

I shared with her some of my relationships with the women in the program and felt it caused me more problems than helped me. One girl in particular: I have been abused by men and this person who I thought was a friend of mine always seemed to date men in AA or NA that had been convicted of rape. She would justify their actions by saying (the whole blame the victim mentallity) the woman asked for it.

She couldn't understand why I didn't want to be around her when she was with these men. I was friends with her for 4 years, until recently when I realized I wasn't respecting myself by trying to have her see my point of view. Anyway, when I told my therapist about this she was amazed. And I went on to tell her of so manjy other predators in AA of NA and how the woman just say "well she placed herself in a position to be raped, beat whatever."

And of course these sick men love that. Not only do the women do that, then they throw in your face some things that you have done like maybe sleeping with someone you didn't know that well and tell you take a look in your own backyard. I'm sorry having sex with someone you don't know and raping or molesting somebody are quite different.

My therapist just believes these people stay in a sick cycle that they usually dont come out of.

I see it all the time the people that have been going to AA since I first started about 6 years ago are still having the same problems they had 6 years ago! It's ridiculous. And they think because they have more sobriety than me their going to help me! Its like, well Jim over there has 7 years or whatever, and under their breath yeah he was convicted of rape but hey he can stay sober. though well shes a nice person with a good heart but she only has a week so stay away from her. lol they are HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!!!

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Well, when I first started seeing her, she told me what she thought of AA.

she felt that the people in AA lived a life of chaos. They stay in a cycle, and if you ever noticed when you attended, they seem to enjoy hearing about other peoples miserys.

And at that time I was so into Aa I totally defended them. Then I started to see what she was saying.

I shared with her some of my relationships with the women in the program and felt it caused me more problems than helped me. One girl in particular: I have been abused by men and this person who I thought was a friend of mine always seemed to date men in AA or NA that had been convicted of rape. She would justify their actions by saying (the whole blame the victim mentallity) the woman asked for it.

She couldn't understand why I didn't want to be around her when she was with these men. I was friends with her for 4 years, until recently when I realized I wasn't respecting myself by trying to have her see my point of view. Anyway, when I told my therapist about this she was amazed. And I went on to tell her of so manjy other predators in AA of NA and how the woman just say "well she placed herself in a position to be raped, beat whatever."

And of course these sick men love that. Not only do the women do that, then they throw in your face some things that you have done like maybe sleeping with someone you didn't know that well and tell you take a look in your own backyard. I'm sorry having sex with someone you don't know and raping or molesting somebody are quite different.

My therapist just believes these people stay in a sick cycle that they usually dont come out of.

I see it all the time the people that have been going to AA since I first started about 6 years ago are still having the same problems they had 6 years ago! It's ridiculous. And they think because they have more sobriety than me their going to help me! Its like, well Jim over there has 7 years or whatever, and under their breath yeah he was convicted of rape but hey he can stay sober. though well shes a nice person with a good heart but she only has a week so stay away from her. lol they are HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!!!

[Guest guest]

Man I am encountering this " universal blindness to 12step defectiveness

in Tx centers " myself right now. Went to DWI school last weekend for 4 year

old DUI case. I passed DUI school, went to all the classes, didn't wreck.

But they caught me on one of several tests, I got too many points and show

possibilities of having an alcohol problem. No matter who I talked to they

couldn't get it through their heads that I've dealt with my alcohol problems

and moved on. They were a bunch of steppers, like Wally said, and they

don't comprehend any alternative ideas on the subject. So, I got sent to

sort of extended DUI school where I was assessed and have to go for a

follow-up, and if I don't pass, I'll have to see a counselor once a week for

twelve weeks or until the counselor says I am done. But I already told you

this happened 4 years ago but I didn't tell you it was in a state I no

longer reside in!!! These guys really piss me off. The state I currently

reside in and the state I formerly resided in have some type of pact so I

can't get a license until I clear this up, which is pretty difficult because

the states are hundreds of miles apart. So, what recourse do I have? I

talk to these stepperfucks and they don't hear me. I guess my first step

(hahaha) will be to talk to the judge himself, hopefully he isn't

steppified, and I could really use some advice on what approach to take with

him.

Re: Re: reponse to need some advice

>

>

> .... Its funny but Ive been to 9 Tx centers

> and almost all of them could not see how that program can cause far more

> damage for some than help...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Pete

I think the answer to your question would really be 'none of the above'

meaning that right from the beginning there was a collaborative effort among

AAers, medical people, and other groups to start a treatment movement.

Kurtz's 'Not-God' says the announcement of the 'Yale Plan for Alcohol

Studies', the 'Yale Plan Clinics for the Treatment of Alcoholism' and the

'National Council for Education on Alcoholism' in January 1944 was made by a

group including Marty Mann, E. M. Jellinek, Dr. W. Haggard (medical

authority on alcoholism) and Dr. Selden D. Bacon (sociologist.) This 'Yale

Group' seems to be the primal source.

Elsewhere I'm sure that I have read that the 28-day program ('

Model') was invented by AA members and that Hazelden was its first

incarnation.

Hazelden (the treatment center, as opposed to the Foundation) was founded in

1949, originally as a retreat for alcoholic priests. A New Yorker article,

Mar 23 1998, on Hazelden gives the impression that it was an AA thing from

the very beginning, though that article doesn't come right out and so state.

All the 'units' at Hazelden are named for historical AA figures ('Ignatia',

'Shoemaker', etc.)

There's a book called 'Slaying the Dragon: The History of Addiction

Treatment and Recovery in America' which would probably answer your question

more thoroughly. (I haven't read it.)

--wally

Re: Re: reponse to need some advice

> >

> >

> > .... Its funny but Ive been to 9 Tx centers

> > and almost all of them could not see how that program can cause far

> more

> > damage for some than help...

>

[Guest guest]

Rehi, Pete

" Shoemaker, stick to thy [or your] last " is an expression that I already

knew before AA. Maybe it is an Americanism that never crossed the pond.

I think Sam Shoemaker cut his ties with OG when it became MRA. He was a

leading light (pardon the pun) in the charismatic trend in the Episcopal

church, and wrote a few books. One of them (it may have been called " How To

Become a Christian " ) was all about how to work the AA 12 Steps even if you

are not officially addicted to anything.

and Shoemaker stayed chummy. Bill even invited Sam to take LSD with

him. Strangely, Pass It On doesn't say whether Sam accepted.

--wally

Re: reponse to need some advice

> Tx for this Wally.

>

> There is something I always thought interesting in the 12 & 12 Tradition

> 6. It may actually start with " Shoemaker, stick to thy last! " . Now

> I've never seen that expression anywhere else at all, which makes me

> wonder if it's rare or even a invention. The pun with " Sam

> Shoemaker " is obvious. Could have been cocking a snook at his

> old Oxford Group mentor who had had the ambitions that now

> jokes about in that chapter, as AA went from strength to strength as

> OG collapsed in scandal into obscurity?

>

> Hmmm.....

>

> P.

>

[snip]

[Guest guest]

Rehi, Pete

" Shoemaker, stick to thy [or your] last " is an expression that I already

knew before AA. Maybe it is an Americanism that never crossed the pond.

I think Sam Shoemaker cut his ties with OG when it became MRA. He was a

leading light (pardon the pun) in the charismatic trend in the Episcopal

church, and wrote a few books. One of them (it may have been called " How To

Become a Christian " ) was all about how to work the AA 12 Steps even if you

are not officially addicted to anything.

and Shoemaker stayed chummy. Bill even invited Sam to take LSD with

him. Strangely, Pass It On doesn't say whether Sam accepted.

--wally

Re: reponse to need some advice

> Tx for this Wally.

>

> There is something I always thought interesting in the 12 & 12 Tradition

> 6. It may actually start with " Shoemaker, stick to thy last! " . Now

> I've never seen that expression anywhere else at all, which makes me

> wonder if it's rare or even a invention. The pun with " Sam

> Shoemaker " is obvious. Could have been cocking a snook at his

> old Oxford Group mentor who had had the ambitions that now

> jokes about in that chapter, as AA went from strength to strength as

> OG collapsed in scandal into obscurity?

>

> Hmmm.....

>

> P.

>

[snip]

[Guest guest]

Rehi, Pete

" Shoemaker, stick to thy [or your] last " is an expression that I already

knew before AA. Maybe it is an Americanism that never crossed the pond.

I think Sam Shoemaker cut his ties with OG when it became MRA. He was a

leading light (pardon the pun) in the charismatic trend in the Episcopal

church, and wrote a few books. One of them (it may have been called " How To

Become a Christian " ) was all about how to work the AA 12 Steps even if you

are not officially addicted to anything.

and Shoemaker stayed chummy. Bill even invited Sam to take LSD with

him. Strangely, Pass It On doesn't say whether Sam accepted.

--wally

Re: reponse to need some advice

> Tx for this Wally.

>

> There is something I always thought interesting in the 12 & 12 Tradition

> 6. It may actually start with " Shoemaker, stick to thy last! " . Now

> I've never seen that expression anywhere else at all, which makes me

> wonder if it's rare or even a invention. The pun with " Sam

> Shoemaker " is obvious. Could have been cocking a snook at his

> old Oxford Group mentor who had had the ambitions that now

> jokes about in that chapter, as AA went from strength to strength as

> OG collapsed in scandal into obscurity?

>

> Hmmm.....

>

> P.

>

[snip]

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/31/01 9:54:03 PM Pacific Standard Time,

wagt@... writes:

<< I think the answer to your question would really be 'none of the above'

meaning that right from the beginning there was a collaborative effort among

AAers, medical people, and other groups to start a treatment movement.

Kurtz's 'Not-God' says the announcement of the 'Yale Plan for Alcohol

Studies', the 'Yale Plan Clinics for the Treatment of Alcoholism' and the

'National Council for Education on Alcoholism' in January 1944 was made by a

group including Marty Mann, E. M. Jellinek, Dr. W. Haggard (medical

authority on alcoholism) and Dr. Selden D. Bacon (sociologist.) This 'Yale

Group' seems to be the primal source. >>

So this is where Jellinek and his senseless " curve " came from. Such

interesting information. Thanks. Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/1/01 11:46:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,

stuart323@... writes:

<< a Minneapolis treatment facility launched by the

city's relief department.

>>

so that is why there are so many " treatment " centers in Minneapolis.

This clears up so much. thx. Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/1/01 11:46:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,

stuart323@... writes:

<< a Minneapolis treatment facility launched by the

city's relief department.

>>

so that is why there are so many " treatment " centers in Minneapolis.

This clears up so much. thx. Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/1/01 11:46:27 PM Pacific Standard Time,

stuart323@... writes:

<< a Minneapolis treatment facility launched by the

city's relief department.

>>

so that is why there are so many " treatment " centers in Minneapolis.

This clears up so much. thx. Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/2/01 8:37:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,

wagt@... writes:

<< In " The Disease Concept of Alcoholism " Jellinek describes where he got his

theory. The whole thing was based on questionnaires filled out by AA

members. As I recall, he got about 100 responses, all anonymous. Jellinek

explains in the book that under most circumstances his procedure would not

exactly be considered the most scientific way to go about gathering data,

but this was a special case because AA members always tell the truth!

Of course the reality is that this ain't even Fringe Science -- you need a

special category for guys like Jellinek, and I consider him an outstanding

exemplar of Joke Science. (And btw there's solid evidence that Jellinek

faked his academic credentials.)

Anyone who's hung out with the Fellowship for any length of time knows how

AA members tend to distort and twist the facts of their drinking history to

make it fit the AA model. Imagine what a fine job they would do if they knew

that their recollections would be treated as " data " !

--wally

----- Original Message -----

> So this is where Jellinek and his senseless " curve " came from. Such

> interesting information. Thanks. Piper. >>

This absolutely blows me away. I am going to give this to the local

miserable docs that promote 12-step. I know they will be in denial. L:OL..

thank you much. Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/2/01 8:37:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,

wagt@... writes:

<< In " The Disease Concept of Alcoholism " Jellinek describes where he got his

theory. The whole thing was based on questionnaires filled out by AA

members. As I recall, he got about 100 responses, all anonymous. Jellinek

explains in the book that under most circumstances his procedure would not

exactly be considered the most scientific way to go about gathering data,

but this was a special case because AA members always tell the truth!

Of course the reality is that this ain't even Fringe Science -- you need a

special category for guys like Jellinek, and I consider him an outstanding

exemplar of Joke Science. (And btw there's solid evidence that Jellinek

faked his academic credentials.)

Anyone who's hung out with the Fellowship for any length of time knows how

AA members tend to distort and twist the facts of their drinking history to

make it fit the AA model. Imagine what a fine job they would do if they knew

that their recollections would be treated as " data " !

--wally

----- Original Message -----

> So this is where Jellinek and his senseless " curve " came from. Such

> interesting information. Thanks. Piper. >>

This absolutely blows me away. I am going to give this to the local

miserable docs that promote 12-step. I know they will be in denial. L:OL..

thank you much. Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 2/2/01 8:37:07 AM Pacific Standard Time,

wagt@... writes:

<< In " The Disease Concept of Alcoholism " Jellinek describes where he got his

theory. The whole thing was based on questionnaires filled out by AA

members. As I recall, he got about 100 responses, all anonymous. Jellinek

explains in the book that under most circumstances his procedure would not

exactly be considered the most scientific way to go about gathering data,

but this was a special case because AA members always tell the truth!

Of course the reality is that this ain't even Fringe Science -- you need a

special category for guys like Jellinek, and I consider him an outstanding

exemplar of Joke Science. (And btw there's solid evidence that Jellinek

faked his academic credentials.)

Anyone who's hung out with the Fellowship for any length of time knows how

AA members tend to distort and twist the facts of their drinking history to

make it fit the AA model. Imagine what a fine job they would do if they knew

that their recollections would be treated as " data " !

--wally

----- Original Message -----

> So this is where Jellinek and his senseless " curve " came from. Such

> interesting information. Thanks. Piper. >>

This absolutely blows me away. I am going to give this to the local

miserable docs that promote 12-step. I know they will be in denial. L:OL..

thank you much. Piper.