Re: M Peck

[Guest guest]

> Peck's original " The Road Less Traveled " is a near-cult-book (or

>was as of about ten years ago) in new-age and/or 12-step circles, as

>it is very " spiritual " . It was the first book, outside AA literature,

>that I'd heard of study groups dedicated to it.

Yep. Read it. It has a poppy on the front. I thoght of writing a

satire called " The Road Unfit for Motor Vehicles " with the cover a

poppy squashed in a huge tyre track.

> His more recent " Further Along The Road Less Traveled "

My version: " Further Round the Bend "

>There's a chapter or three on 12-step programs,

>mostly AA, in which he proclaims its wonderfulness. He claims the

>fastest way to achieve spiritual growth is through 12-step programs.

>At one point he says " I don't actually recommend this, but... " he

>brings up the idea that even if you've never had a drinking problem,

>you could really " grow spiritually " by going to an AA meeting, saying

>you're an alcoholic, get a sponsor, work the steps, etc.

> Such an idea that a 'civilian' would actually go to AA and be " a

>part of " the program is abhorrent to any true AA'er, but as this was

>in my becoming-more-heretical period, I was amused by it.

I think he says " God created Alcoholism so that Man would create

Alcoholics Anonymous, that gave us the principles that will save the

world. " or something like that. In " The People of the Lie " he calls

for demonic possession to be recognised as a psychiatric disease and

exorcism as a medical treatment. He also endorses rough exorcism

marathons that sound like a kind of Xtian Synanon Game .His latest

thing is a spiritual enlightnement through playing golf. He seems to

take whatever his (golf) bag seems to be and says it would be great

for everybody.

P.

[Guest guest]

I totally agree with M. Peck's advice when he states "if you don't have a drinking problem join a AA group anyway." I didn't read this advice, but followed my inner voice and after reading the 12 steps after a spiritual crisis , got through it , and found a way to share my experience, strength and hope to the suffering in alcoholism and feel that much more in touch with humanity then I ever did. So, I am writing to acknowledge that statement and reinforce that philospohy. Griffith

Nurse/ Alcohol and Chemical Counselor at large.

Syracuse, New York

[Guest guest]

Dear Rita;

I am not involved in 12-step. It gets too codependent and political an daway they go back into drinking.. They do, however have OPEN MEETINGS, where anybody can drop by. That is how I got into the door. After this, and seeing that spiritual food of the 12 steps assisiting those in spiritual crisis, I felt I belonged if only for a few moments. They will throw you out in spirit if you haven't got the "HARD CORE" suffering that they do. This is where I had to draw the proverbial line.. I am involved however in my own way of using these 12 steps to further my honesty openness and willingness as a part of the human race and having a strong desire to shed some light one folks in need of less burdens. That's about how I see it.

Thanks ,

[Guest guest]

Hello --

I have two responses:

(1) If as tradition 3 says, " the only criteria for membership in AA is a

desire to stop drinking " (presumably due to damaging consequences of alcohol

dependence), how do you justify someone with no drinking problem joining AA,

getting a sponsor, etc. And in what manner would people looking for help with a

drinking problem from the religious fellowship of AA be able to feel they are in

a place where " we share our experience, strength, and hope " to stop drinking and

help others stop drinking, if others present have never HAD a drinking problem?

That Peck or anyone else would encourage non-alcoholics to join AA for

" spiritual growth " is pretty good proof that AA and the Steps are actually a

movement for worldwide religious proselytization and conversion, much more than

a support group for problem drinkers.

and more importantly,

(2) Are you aware that this list is " 12-Step FREE " , a discussion list for

people who have REJECTED 12-step philosophy or are in the process of seriously

questioning it??

Have you perhaps dropped in here by mistake?

I sincerely hope that as a health professional, you give impartial and

up-to-date advice to people who wish to discontinue unhealthy drinking behavior,

but do not accept AA.

Respectfully,

Rita

> I totally agree with M. Peck's advice when he states " if you don't have

> a drinking problem join a AA group anyway. " I didn't read this advice, but

> followed my inner voice and after reading the 12 steps after a spiritual

> crisis , got through it , and found a way to share my experience, strength

> and hope to the suffering in alcoholism and feel that much more in touch with

> humanity then I ever did. So, I am writing to acknowledge that statement and

> reinforce that philospohy.

> Griffith

> Nurse/ Alcohol and Chemical Counselor at large.

> Syracuse, New York

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

More than a million people in the U.S. are forced/coerced into the

12-step programs each year by courts and employers. As a medical

professional, what are your feelings about this?

My favorite writer is an M.D. who lives in Syracuse. Do you know of

Szasz?

Tommy

> I totally agree with M. Peck's advice when he states " if you

don't have

> a drinking problem join a AA group anyway. " I didn't read this

advice, but

> followed my inner voice and after reading the 12 steps after a

spiritual

> crisis , got through it , and found a way to share my experience,

strength

> and hope to the suffering in alcoholism and feel that much more in

touch with

> humanity then I ever did. So, I am writing to acknowledge that

statement and

> reinforce that philospohy.

> Griffith

> Nurse/ Alcohol and Chemical Counselor at large.

> Syracuse, New York

[Guest guest]

I am interested in hearing your feelings, too, . I agree with you

and M Peck - even if you are not an alcoholic join AA anyways. You

can learn a lot about the duplicity of human beings there as well as the

ignorance of human beings, you can learn about human' herd needs,

brainwashing, mind control. Very educational, and while you are at it, you

can learn humility and become an upstanding person - all this for a buck (if

you can spare it)! It's a lot cheaper than colllege. Of course, I think

one should only be subjected to this by their own volition, not at the

discretion of an ignorant and biased agent of the state.

Re: M Peck

> Hi ,

>

> More than a million people in the U.S. are forced/coerced into the

> 12-step programs each year by courts and employers. As a medical

> professional, what are your feelings about this?

>

> My favorite writer is an M.D. who lives in Syracuse. Do you know of

> Szasz?

>

> Tommy

>

>

>

> > I totally agree with M. Peck's advice when he states " if you

> don't have

> > a drinking problem join a AA group anyway. " I didn't read this

> advice, but

> > followed my inner voice and after reading the 12 steps after a

> spiritual

> > crisis , got through it , and found a way to share my experience,

> strength

> > and hope to the suffering in alcoholism and feel that much more in

> touch with

> > humanity then I ever did. So, I am writing to acknowledge that

> statement and

> > reinforce that philospohy.

> > Griffith

> > Nurse/ Alcohol and Chemical Counselor at large.

> > Syracuse, New York

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am interested in hearing your feelings, too, . I agree with you

and M Peck - even if you are not an alcoholic join AA anyways. You

can learn a lot about the duplicity of human beings there as well as the

ignorance of human beings, you can learn about human' herd needs,

brainwashing, mind control. Very educational, and while you are at it, you

can learn humility and become an upstanding person - all this for a buck (if

you can spare it)! It's a lot cheaper than colllege. Of course, I think

one should only be subjected to this by their own volition, not at the

discretion of an ignorant and biased agent of the state.

Re: M Peck

> Hi ,

>

> More than a million people in the U.S. are forced/coerced into the

> 12-step programs each year by courts and employers. As a medical

> professional, what are your feelings about this?

>

> My favorite writer is an M.D. who lives in Syracuse. Do you know of

> Szasz?

>

> Tommy

>

>

>

> > I totally agree with M. Peck's advice when he states " if you

> don't have

> > a drinking problem join a AA group anyway. " I didn't read this

> advice, but

> > followed my inner voice and after reading the 12 steps after a

> spiritual

> > crisis , got through it , and found a way to share my experience,

> strength

> > and hope to the suffering in alcoholism and feel that much more in

> touch with

> > humanity then I ever did. So, I am writing to acknowledge that

> statement and

> > reinforce that philospohy.

> > Griffith

> > Nurse/ Alcohol and Chemical Counselor at large.

> > Syracuse, New York

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am interested in hearing your feelings, too, . I agree with you

and M Peck - even if you are not an alcoholic join AA anyways. You

can learn a lot about the duplicity of human beings there as well as the

ignorance of human beings, you can learn about human' herd needs,

brainwashing, mind control. Very educational, and while you are at it, you

can learn humility and become an upstanding person - all this for a buck (if

you can spare it)! It's a lot cheaper than colllege. Of course, I think

one should only be subjected to this by their own volition, not at the

discretion of an ignorant and biased agent of the state.

Re: M Peck

> Hi ,

>

> More than a million people in the U.S. are forced/coerced into the

> 12-step programs each year by courts and employers. As a medical

> professional, what are your feelings about this?

>

> My favorite writer is an M.D. who lives in Syracuse. Do you know of

> Szasz?

>

> Tommy

>

>

>

> > I totally agree with M. Peck's advice when he states " if you

> don't have

> > a drinking problem join a AA group anyway. " I didn't read this

> advice, but

> > followed my inner voice and after reading the 12 steps after a

> spiritual

> > crisis , got through it , and found a way to share my experience,

> strength

> > and hope to the suffering in alcoholism and feel that much more in

> touch with

> > humanity then I ever did. So, I am writing to acknowledge that

> statement and

> > reinforce that philospohy.

> > Griffith

> > Nurse/ Alcohol and Chemical Counselor at large.

> > Syracuse, New York

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello To you;

I chuckled loudly when I heard you report of doing this deed of "my own volition,"

extremely against the faint of mind or heart. The Herd as you say will eat you alive if you are there as an observer. So you get into their world and take them to DETOX and clean up their mess when they relapse and then you are now looked upon as one of them. So sad that brainwashing you state..They are the most controlling people on the planet...So I try to get out when I know it is not healthy and since they are such "into taking everyone's inventory' they won't miss me....I have a book to get together for this. No. I am doing this for insight, compassion and to develop a tolerance for the whole addictions process... My therapy I go to church is that OK in this milieu..Humor works too. I do not get paid enough . I guess I need a life.

[Guest guest]

Tommy;

So be it... I have been an activist in many issues and find myself knocked over time and again when the constitution is used to further control those who find themselves in trouble with the system. What is it that I said about the reply that you would EVER think I am in with thepeople who coerce others less actualized and powerless to be further degraded with brainwahing techniques of AA. I have a friend right now who is loosing everything she has believed in by getting trapped into the system because she holds a medical license and can not live a life of life liberty and the happiness thing because she must kiss those in charge's a..'s I will check out the web site, I am a newcomer((HAHAHA) no pun intended. I am skipping the speakers meeting. I just can't do it anymore.

[Guest guest]

Is pretending to be an alcoholic when you are not " Absolute Honesty "

? Or subscribing to a 12-step-free list to promote the 12 steps?

> Hello To you;

> I chuckled loudly when I heard you report of doing this deed of " my

own

> volition, "

> extremely against the faint of mind or heart. The Herd as you say

will eat

> you alive if you are there as an observer. So you get into their

world and

> take them to DETOX and clean up their mess when they relapse and

then you

> are now looked upon as one of them. So sad that brainwashing you

state..They

> are the most controlling people on the planet...So I try to get out

when I

> know it is not healthy and since they are such " into taking

everyone's

> inventory' they won't miss me....I have a book to get together for

this. No.

> I am doing this for insight, compassion and to develop a tolerance

for the

> whole addictions process... My therapy I go to church is that OK in

this

> milieu..Humor works too. I do not get paid enough . I guess I need a

life.

>

[Guest guest]

Is pretending to be an alcoholic when you are not " Absolute Honesty "

? Or subscribing to a 12-step-free list to promote the 12 steps?

> Hello To you;

> I chuckled loudly when I heard you report of doing this deed of " my

own

> volition, "

> extremely against the faint of mind or heart. The Herd as you say

will eat

> you alive if you are there as an observer. So you get into their

world and

> take them to DETOX and clean up their mess when they relapse and

then you

> are now looked upon as one of them. So sad that brainwashing you

state..They

> are the most controlling people on the planet...So I try to get out

when I

> know it is not healthy and since they are such " into taking

everyone's

> inventory' they won't miss me....I have a book to get together for

this. No.

> I am doing this for insight, compassion and to develop a tolerance

for the

> whole addictions process... My therapy I go to church is that OK in

this

> milieu..Humor works too. I do not get paid enough . I guess I need a

life.

>

[Guest guest]

who counsels the counselor? Is she beyond help? I just wonder. I don't

understand her reply to my post, though it seemed very straightforward in

her first post that she supported AA (and I am sure AA supports her - the

industry and the cult walk hand in hand - they are mutual parasites -

codependent on each other). Again, what caused the big chuckle? That

people should be able to goto AA without coercion, myself included? I don't

see the humor.

Re: M Peck

> Is pretending to be an alcoholic when you are not " Absolute Honesty "

> ? Or subscribing to a 12-step-free list to promote the 12 steps?

>

>

>

>

> > Hello To you;

> > I chuckled loudly when I heard you report of doing this deed of " my

> own

> > volition, "

> > extremely against the faint of mind or heart. The Herd as you say

> will eat

> > you alive if you are there as an observer. So you get into their

> world and

> > take them to DETOX and clean up their mess when they relapse and

> then you

> > are now looked upon as one of them. So sad that brainwashing you

> state..They

> > are the most controlling people on the planet...So I try to get out

> when I

> > know it is not healthy and since they are such " into taking

> everyone's

> > inventory' they won't miss me....I have a book to get together for

> this. No.

> > I am doing this for insight, compassion and to develop a tolerance

> for the

> > whole addictions process... My therapy I go to church is that OK in

> this

> > milieu..Humor works too. I do not get paid enough . I guess I need a

> life.

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

who counsels the counselor? Is she beyond help? I just wonder. I don't

understand her reply to my post, though it seemed very straightforward in

her first post that she supported AA (and I am sure AA supports her - the

industry and the cult walk hand in hand - they are mutual parasites -

codependent on each other). Again, what caused the big chuckle? That

people should be able to goto AA without coercion, myself included? I don't

see the humor.

Re: M Peck

> Is pretending to be an alcoholic when you are not " Absolute Honesty "

> ? Or subscribing to a 12-step-free list to promote the 12 steps?

>

>

>

>

> > Hello To you;

> > I chuckled loudly when I heard you report of doing this deed of " my

> own

> > volition, "

> > extremely against the faint of mind or heart. The Herd as you say

> will eat

> > you alive if you are there as an observer. So you get into their

> world and

> > take them to DETOX and clean up their mess when they relapse and

> then you

> > are now looked upon as one of them. So sad that brainwashing you

> state..They

> > are the most controlling people on the planet...So I try to get out

> when I

> > know it is not healthy and since they are such " into taking

> everyone's

> > inventory' they won't miss me....I have a book to get together for

> this. No.

> > I am doing this for insight, compassion and to develop a tolerance

> for the

> > whole addictions process... My therapy I go to church is that OK in

> this

> > milieu..Humor works too. I do not get paid enough . I guess I need a

> life.

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I was in there doing the porverbial character study. Because when you sit with the alcoholic in rehabilitation I wondered what all of the tightness with each other was all about figuring they all we screwed up why were they following a blind leading the blind mode, so I wouold go to open meetings and if invited closed but my relationship to the group was as an outsider and they finaaly caught on. Some are still calling me for advice. So, my counselor is found at the church I belong for my strength.

[Guest guest]

Just thought you would like some follow up on my success with getting rid of

my mandated AA condition .

Someoen at my docs and dentists group last night knew about what had happened

.. These cases are supposed to be confidential , but there have been ripples

through the Lawyers who are involved with medical defence work , and the

General medical Council ( sister organoisation to the Dental Council )

It seems to be enough to threaten going to Law on the Human Rights Issue ,

and its now obvious that if I had had to do that I would have won and it

would have been a test case . I shall continue to make it known so that

others can also challenge it if it happens to them

[Guest guest]

Just thought you would like some follow up on my success with getting rid of

my mandated AA condition .

Someoen at my docs and dentists group last night knew about what had happened

.. These cases are supposed to be confidential , but there have been ripples

through the Lawyers who are involved with medical defence work , and the

General medical Council ( sister organoisation to the Dental Council )

It seems to be enough to threaten going to Law on the Human Rights Issue ,

and its now obvious that if I had had to do that I would have won and it

would have been a test case . I shall continue to make it known so that

others can also challenge it if it happens to them

[Guest guest]

I just figured you out. You really believe all that bullshit. You ought to have a look at (I mean read it!) a book called "Lies my Teacher Told me" (Everything your American History Textbook Got Wrong) and then figure out everything that you were taught in psychologist/psychiatrist/sociologist/social worker's school (whatever it was you took up) that was wrong and then write a book called "Lies my Psychology Teacher Told Me." If you don't do it, I might just have to subject myself to that tormented education so that I can write such a book. The world needs it, especially people like you. Brainwashed and you aren't even in the program. I'm not trying to be mean, but I think the biggest problem with AA these days is the huge so called medical industry that is perpetuating the AA folklore. AA isn't based in Science, and neither is this whole field of "medicine." AA would be pretty insignificant if it weren't for this "industry." Thanks for your time, I hope you see the light.

I was in there doing the porverbial character study. Because when you sit with the alcoholic in rehabilitation

[Guest guest]

,

To belong to a secular, somewhat strange religious organization is very nice,

but not something that is very relevant to the healthcare field. To use

affiliation in such a club as a path to employment in such a field is

despicable. Addiction involves both the physical and mental health of many,

many people, and should be handled by professionals or proven therapeutic

methods. I can't help but cringe when an addiction counselor cites HIS/HER

OWN success story as proof of the program's purported effectiveness and the

necessity to carry the message to be completely self-centered. As an extreme

example I once heard a sponsor state that she felt guilt over her sponsee's

suicide, given that the sponsee had died as a result of a certain piece of

advice given by the sponsor. But hey, the sponsor still carried the

message! She was reminded that guilt was toxic and quickly got off the pity

pot. So what if others die, the alcoholic believes he is in a daily battle

for survival and everyone else can screw off and be a " normie " or look at

their desk one day and say, " my God! Look at all these disorganized papers!

It's a disease, for which I am not responsible. I am no longer in denial, I

must attend Messies Anonymous Meetings. "

This was entirely in response to your proud affirmation of employment in the

treatment industry.

Nick

[Guest guest]

,

To belong to a secular, somewhat strange religious organization is very nice,

but not something that is very relevant to the healthcare field. To use

affiliation in such a club as a path to employment in such a field is

despicable. Addiction involves both the physical and mental health of many,

many people, and should be handled by professionals or proven therapeutic

methods. I can't help but cringe when an addiction counselor cites HIS/HER

OWN success story as proof of the program's purported effectiveness and the

necessity to carry the message to be completely self-centered. As an extreme

example I once heard a sponsor state that she felt guilt over her sponsee's

suicide, given that the sponsee had died as a result of a certain piece of

advice given by the sponsor. But hey, the sponsor still carried the

message! She was reminded that guilt was toxic and quickly got off the pity

pot. So what if others die, the alcoholic believes he is in a daily battle

for survival and everyone else can screw off and be a " normie " or look at

their desk one day and say, " my God! Look at all these disorganized papers!

It's a disease, for which I am not responsible. I am no longer in denial, I

must attend Messies Anonymous Meetings. "

This was entirely in response to your proud affirmation of employment in the

treatment industry.

Nick

[Guest guest]

On the subject of Peck I think it only fair to point out that he only

advocates universal conscription to the Armed Forces on the basis that

if we must have professional killers then we should all take part in

order to take ciollective responsibility and in order to prevent the

military from becoming dehumanozed. He came to this belief in response

to the Mi Lai massacre. I think he has a point, and I would hate the

Army.

[Guest guest]

On the subject of Peck I think it only fair to point out that he only

advocates universal conscription to the Armed Forces on the basis that

if we must have professional killers then we should all take part in

order to take ciollective responsibility and in order to prevent the

military from becoming dehumanozed. He came to this belief in response

to the Mi Lai massacre. I think he has a point, and I would hate the

Army.

[Guest guest]

On the subject of Peck I think it only fair to point out that he only

advocates universal conscription to the Armed Forces on the basis that

if we must have professional killers then we should all take part in

order to take ciollective responsibility and in order to prevent the

military from becoming dehumanozed. He came to this belief in response

to the Mi Lai massacre. I think he has a point, and I would hate the

Army.

[Guest guest]

Dear ??

I do not think you have any understanding of my note I posted here.. I have been in the treatment field with my own successful story, success being relative here, being able to discern what is BS in that 12 stepgroup and what really is simple to understand for those who were always in fear to believe in a power greater then themselves. I offer experience strength and hope as a counselor NOT as a person in allegiance with any affiliation with this Mind controlled group.... I wanted to go to this group due to its popularity and that the counseling courses seriously suggest you find out what AA is all about... A mandatory lesson. So i went away with my own revelation and since this is a free country I will enforce this in my beliefs..Soryy I offended you but I do not think you read this with NONjudgemental mindset....Too bad.

[Guest guest]

Dear ??

I do not think you have any understanding of my note I posted here.. I have been in the treatment field with my own successful story, success being relative here, being able to discern what is BS in that 12 stepgroup and what really is simple to understand for those who were always in fear to believe in a power greater then themselves. I offer experience strength and hope as a counselor NOT as a person in allegiance with any affiliation with this Mind controlled group.... I wanted to go to this group due to its popularity and that the counseling courses seriously suggest you find out what AA is all about... A mandatory lesson. So i went away with my own revelation and since this is a free country I will enforce this in my beliefs..Soryy I offended you but I do not think you read this with NONjudgemental mindset....Too bad.