Re: how is everyoone

[Guest guest]

\How do you guys feel about the abuse of power and just the flat

> out abuse that happens in AA.

hi, im sure apple and some others on this list can address this

from a woman's point of view. i want to comment on 3

words. abuse of power

this is what makes aa a destructive cult. if it was a " self help "

group for spiritual growth or self improvement, or whatever they

want to claim they are, why is there any power to abuse in first

place? since when does my personal growth require ANY one to

have a power over me to abuse?

but of course their is power, abuse and group pressure and

tactics to manipulate the newcomer into the fold, a newcomer

who is probably desperate, and in having a hard time in other

areas of their life where they may have had support before.

a newcomer who is told they CANT trust themselves or their own

minds, that they are without power and that they must

turn their will over to a god, a sponsor and the group. a

newocmemr how wil be shamed and taught fear of self

destruction for not being a " grouper " (that is what they called

themsleves even in Oxford group). a newcommer who is swept

thru a world filled with jargon which is held by members as

some kind of mystical reverence . a bizzare world of steps,

sponsors, elders, dry druks, slippery slopes, " spirtual "

awakenings, HP's and serenity prayers. by the time they have

aeveb begun to assimilate all this nonsense, they have been

taugth they will die if they leave..

when i was in AA, no one in teh year and half iw as exposed to

them, taught me a single practical thing for livng life sober. all i

was tuaght was read BB, hit my knees, go toa meeting and call

your sponsor. hell, in first week i was there, the " old timers "

actualy spent a whole evening trying to convince me AA wasnt a

cult, and that if others had a soultion which was better, why

werent they there sharing it?

they spent that time early on telling me that, when all i wanted to

know was how do you live life sober! this was before i even

conceived of idea it was a cult, mind you. at that time i couldnt

belive all the people i trusted would point me towards a cult, or

that they were actualy members of one themselves.

AA is a evil, dehumanizing, intellect hating cult. it has nothing to

do with sobriety, or personal growth.

if it had to do with personal growth an sobriety, i should be able

to stand up in any AA meeting and say, hi, im dave, im a former

alcoholic, im happy sober and wish to be an example to others,

but i think the 12-steps are a recipe of religious conversion and

that bill wilson was and intellectually dishonest man who

created a religious, ego destroying cult, belived drugs were the

key to spirtuality, which was never honestly designed for all

religious beliefs , or lack of belief.

it cant be when it requires a specific belief itself. but i happy to

tell how i became sober, in spite of bill wilsons program and

remain sober without any " steps " . im sure there are plenty of

newcomers who would like to know how that can be and that

they can have better life than they do now.

whats wrong? am i not happy being sober? that im no longer

" alcoholic " ? haven't i had personal growth? i thought the only

requirement for membership was.... oh well. wish i could tell

that " old timer " i met , why this " old timer " would never dream of

wasting his breathe in AA.

[Guest guest]

after i saw my old friend last week, she said well did a higher

power get you sober? and i said no. but i was thinking next

day, why is it we seem to feel (and i know why) we need gods to

stop us from drinking, but you never hear people say i had

constipation, and i turned my will, life, and mind over to god " no,

when you have constipation, you do what you need to resolved

the problem, you eat some fiber or taking fucking laxative. i dont

think anyone asks, " gee what is gods will for my colon? "

and why not ? is my bowl movement beneath gods universal

plan? is it somehow exempt from it? does my colon have a

free will run rampant? im being extreme here to make a point, it

just never fails to amaze me how " professionals can say a

program which is designed to turn peoples will over to god, isn't

religious, or how that expectation that they do, is

what people suffering from alcoholism need.

[Guest guest]

after i saw my old friend last week, she said well did a higher

power get you sober? and i said no. but i was thinking next

day, why is it we seem to feel (and i know why) we need gods to

stop us from drinking, but you never hear people say i had

constipation, and i turned my will, life, and mind over to god " no,

when you have constipation, you do what you need to resolved

the problem, you eat some fiber or taking fucking laxative. i dont

think anyone asks, " gee what is gods will for my colon? "

and why not ? is my bowl movement beneath gods universal

plan? is it somehow exempt from it? does my colon have a

free will run rampant? im being extreme here to make a point, it

just never fails to amaze me how " professionals can say a

program which is designed to turn peoples will over to god, isn't

religious, or how that expectation that they do, is

what people suffering from alcoholism need.

[Guest guest]

after i saw my old friend last week, she said well did a higher

power get you sober? and i said no. but i was thinking next

day, why is it we seem to feel (and i know why) we need gods to

stop us from drinking, but you never hear people say i had

constipation, and i turned my will, life, and mind over to god " no,

when you have constipation, you do what you need to resolved

the problem, you eat some fiber or taking fucking laxative. i dont

think anyone asks, " gee what is gods will for my colon? "

and why not ? is my bowl movement beneath gods universal

plan? is it somehow exempt from it? does my colon have a

free will run rampant? im being extreme here to make a point, it

just never fails to amaze me how " professionals can say a

program which is designed to turn peoples will over to god, isn't

religious, or how that expectation that they do, is

what people suffering from alcoholism need.

[Guest guest]

after i saw my old friend last week, she said well did a higher

power get you sober? and i said no. but i was thinking next

day, why is it we seem to feel (and i know why) we need gods to

stop us from drinking, but you never hear people say i had

constipation, and i turned my will, life, and mind over to god " no,

when you have constipation, you do what you need to resolved

the problem, you eat some fiber or taking fucking laxative. i dont

think anyone asks, " gee what is gods will for my colon? "

and why not ? is my bowl movement beneath gods universal

plan? is it somehow exempt from it? does my colon have a

free will run rampant? im being extreme here to make a point, it

just never fails to amaze me how " professionals can say a

program which is designed to turn peoples will over to god, isn't

religious, or how that expectation that they do, is

what people suffering from alcoholism need.

[Guest guest]

> How do you guys feel about the abuse of power and just

>the flat out abuse that happens in AA. And I know men suffer from it

>too, but dont you think the women suffer a hell of a lot more. I

>hope there are some sensative men out their that can see what Im

>saying.

Hi

Well my gf told me Im a feminist, so I might help, and I know she

meant it because she didnt say it as a compliment! I think its

important to recognize that one cant really compare suffering. It's a

very personal thing, all we know is that we can all suffer in

different ways. Howver, I think there are aspects of AA that can make

it particularly dangerous for women. Sexual exploitation is one. The

other is that it was essentially designed by and for men. Male

alcoholics can have problems with impulse control, aggression and

antisocial behavior and the pentitential nature of the program

reflects this. Women can do this too but they are more likely to

drink out of feelings of guilt, shame and fear. Their egos are often

already deflated; they dont need to be squashed down even further, but

built up. Often they need to learn how to express anger, not to

control it, and to seek recompense and justice regarding ppl who have

hirt them, rather than make amends to others.

I probably already mentioned the 16steps group here at what is now

yahoo groups; which is focussed on a program more suitable for women.

Take care,

Pete

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/26/01 9:45:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,

dmarcoot@... writes:

<< this is what makes aa a destructive cult. if it was a " self help "

group for spiritual growth or self improvement, or whatever they

want to claim they are, why is there any power to abuse in first

place? since when does my personal growth require ANY one to

have a power over me to abuse? >>

This brings tears to my eyes with the fury and sadness recognizing the extent

of the abuse. At first it makes me feel as if I am just plain goddamned

stupid. But that is part of the " cure " then isn't it--mistrust of oneself.

Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/26/01 9:45:31 PM Pacific Standard Time,

dmarcoot@... writes:

<< this is what makes aa a destructive cult. if it was a " self help "

group for spiritual growth or self improvement, or whatever they

want to claim they are, why is there any power to abuse in first

place? since when does my personal growth require ANY one to

have a power over me to abuse? >>

This brings tears to my eyes with the fury and sadness recognizing the extent

of the abuse. At first it makes me feel as if I am just plain goddamned

stupid. But that is part of the " cure " then isn't it--mistrust of oneself.

Piper.