entrance testing

[Guest guest]

-- ExLngHrn@... wrote:

I've been considering the discussions on the list about the NR exam problems

that many applicants are having. I cannot help but think that part of the

problem is that many EMS education programs will literally take any applicant

who pays the tuition.

I take it, you noticed this problem among your fellow students in your class?

Frustrating it is, both from the student's and instructor's perspectives.

[Guest guest]

-- ExLngHrn@... wrote:

I've been considering the discussions on the list about the NR exam problems

that many applicants are having. I cannot help but think that part of the

problem is that many EMS education programs will literally take any applicant

who pays the tuition.

I take it, you noticed this problem among your fellow students in your class?

Frustrating it is, both from the student's and instructor's perspectives.

[Guest guest]

-- ExLngHrn@... wrote:

I've been considering the discussions on the list about the NR exam problems

that many applicants are having. I cannot help but think that part of the

problem is that many EMS education programs will literally take any applicant

who pays the tuition.

I take it, you noticed this problem among your fellow students in your class?

Frustrating it is, both from the student's and instructor's perspectives.

[Guest guest]

-- larry feagin wrote:

" Rednecks, Yankees, Hill 's and Yuppies all on the same page... "

Ain't diversity grand? :-)

If you can read this, thank a teacher

If you can comment freely on this, thank a soldier

Larry RN LP EMSI

[Guest guest]

I've noticed students who are barely capable of making themselves understood

in the English language. Unfortunately, this person may be the one who helps

us -- or our family.

-Wes

[Guest guest]

I've noticed students who are barely capable of making themselves understood

in the English language. Unfortunately, this person may be the one who helps

us -- or our family.

-Wes

[Guest guest]

Larry,

The issue of regional idioms has been repeatedly used in an attempt to

undermine the validity of testing that is " standardized " on a national

level. But pneumothorax means pneumothorax in both Florida and Alaska.

Regional slang terms are totally irrelevant, and I find it difficult to

understand how any analogy could be made. These attempts only serve to

gloss over the far more pertinent concerns that we are faced with in EMS

education. The individuals who fail the National Registry exam with a 69%

do not fail it by 1 percentage point. They fail it by 31 points. If you

can find a couple of questions that you do not consider to be appropriate,

there are still 29 or 30 that were perfectly legitimate. If they had passed

those questions, this discussion would be purely academic. I am sympathetic

to the concern that EMS standard of care is still somewhat fragmented, but I

do not believe that it is sufficiently fragmented so as to invalidate NR

test scores.

So where is the problem? I believe it originates from both the students and

faculty of paramedic training programs. All too often, particularly in

department-based programs, knowledge and skills necessary to function within

a department's protocols are emphasized at the expense of a more

well-rounded education that would prepare the student to function

effectively in jobs outside of that department. This is often more a

function of the systems that instructors must work within rather than the

desires of the instructors themselves. However, I also believe that

instructors have failed miserably in requiring at least some degree of

critical thinking from students. You mentioned that " Not any one

protocol... will fit every system " . That is very true, and it clearly

represents why the emphasis must be placed on understanding the rationale

behind the protocol rather than merely memorizing the protocol itself.

There is probably not one protocol that is appropriate for every EMS system-

at least not one I have seen. But if you teach students to understand the

fundamental concepts that underlie the protocols, they can take those

concepts and use them to develop a basic understanding that can be applied

to almost any protocol or treatment strategy.

The students must also shoulder much of the blame. I don't know of any

paramedic training programs that institute academic testing for applicants

that can be described as rigorous. Some departments give exams, but the one

I am familiar with tests for academic skills at the sixth grade level, and

you would be amazed at how many people fail to achieve above a 70%. The

cream floats to the top and the sludge sinks to the bottom, and when you

only expect a sixth grade level of reasoning, you are dragging the bottom of

the bucket. You cannot reconcile these facts with the idea that we should

be having good passing rates on the NR exam because it is not a sixth grade

level test. These people need to be weeded out long before they become

eligible for the NR exam, but the programs won't do it because it would

lower their enrollment and they would lose money. When I was working

through my paramedic classes, I would bet that the overall pass rate was

somewhere around 95%. But do you think that there has been a 95% pass rate

for the NR exam? I haven't seen any numbers on this, but I don't think that

the discrepancy between program pass rates and NR pass rates can be solely

attributed to problems with the NR, especially when some states have pass

rates that have come very close to 90%.

-

Re: Entrance testing

I had to take an entrance test of mainly math and english comp. prior to

paramedic school. They still have the pre test and are having some trouble

with the NR test. Let me throw a thought out at ya. The NR prides themselves

on having a test that is all inclusive. A test that has one and only one

answer that fits the entire U.S. That in itself is the problem. Here in Tx.

we are unique due to our extremely diverse population, geography and even

weather. What works in Dallas will not necessarily work in Dal hart or

Marfa. We as a group have had many discussions on this. What works in Maine

may not work in Colorado. Not any one protocol or SOP's will fit every EMS

system.

But now we are supposed to believe that one standard test will fit all.

That seems to be a flawed assumption. I know the argument is we need one

standard and to that I agree. I remember a story about how NR received a

complaint from Alaska about a question involving a man hole, they did not

know what one was. NR removed that question from the test, I know, hear say,

But you get the idea.

How can you justify giving the exact test to candidates from N.Y. City,

Houston, Fairbanks, O.K. City, Salem, Port Aransas, Tampa, Flagstaff and

numerous others without having problems with terminology and grammar. Would

a La Crosse candidate know the meaning to " fixin too " ? Would a Alabama

candidate understand " Yous guys " ? There are just too many hurdles to jump

for a test to be all inclusive. Before you get on the we all learned the

same english in school bandwagon take a few seconds to think about it. Not

sure if I would agree to that. You could have regional tests that still ask

the same questions but in a way that is clearer to the candidates. Also you

take all the time teaching folks to use their critical thinking skills just

to have them take a direct answer test. Hmmmm so my question is can you

really have one test that fits all?

Rednecks, Yankees, Hill 's and Yuppies all on the same page...

[Guest guest]

Larry,

The issue of regional idioms has been repeatedly used in an attempt to

undermine the validity of testing that is " standardized " on a national

level. But pneumothorax means pneumothorax in both Florida and Alaska.

Regional slang terms are totally irrelevant, and I find it difficult to

understand how any analogy could be made. These attempts only serve to

gloss over the far more pertinent concerns that we are faced with in EMS

education. The individuals who fail the National Registry exam with a 69%

do not fail it by 1 percentage point. They fail it by 31 points. If you

can find a couple of questions that you do not consider to be appropriate,

there are still 29 or 30 that were perfectly legitimate. If they had passed

those questions, this discussion would be purely academic. I am sympathetic

to the concern that EMS standard of care is still somewhat fragmented, but I

do not believe that it is sufficiently fragmented so as to invalidate NR

test scores.

So where is the problem? I believe it originates from both the students and

faculty of paramedic training programs. All too often, particularly in

department-based programs, knowledge and skills necessary to function within

a department's protocols are emphasized at the expense of a more

well-rounded education that would prepare the student to function

effectively in jobs outside of that department. This is often more a

function of the systems that instructors must work within rather than the

desires of the instructors themselves. However, I also believe that

instructors have failed miserably in requiring at least some degree of

critical thinking from students. You mentioned that " Not any one

protocol... will fit every system " . That is very true, and it clearly

represents why the emphasis must be placed on understanding the rationale

behind the protocol rather than merely memorizing the protocol itself.

There is probably not one protocol that is appropriate for every EMS system-

at least not one I have seen. But if you teach students to understand the

fundamental concepts that underlie the protocols, they can take those

concepts and use them to develop a basic understanding that can be applied

to almost any protocol or treatment strategy.

The students must also shoulder much of the blame. I don't know of any

paramedic training programs that institute academic testing for applicants

that can be described as rigorous. Some departments give exams, but the one

I am familiar with tests for academic skills at the sixth grade level, and

you would be amazed at how many people fail to achieve above a 70%. The

cream floats to the top and the sludge sinks to the bottom, and when you

only expect a sixth grade level of reasoning, you are dragging the bottom of

the bucket. You cannot reconcile these facts with the idea that we should

be having good passing rates on the NR exam because it is not a sixth grade

level test. These people need to be weeded out long before they become

eligible for the NR exam, but the programs won't do it because it would

lower their enrollment and they would lose money. When I was working

through my paramedic classes, I would bet that the overall pass rate was

somewhere around 95%. But do you think that there has been a 95% pass rate

for the NR exam? I haven't seen any numbers on this, but I don't think that

the discrepancy between program pass rates and NR pass rates can be solely

attributed to problems with the NR, especially when some states have pass

rates that have come very close to 90%.

-

Re: Entrance testing

I had to take an entrance test of mainly math and english comp. prior to

paramedic school. They still have the pre test and are having some trouble

with the NR test. Let me throw a thought out at ya. The NR prides themselves

on having a test that is all inclusive. A test that has one and only one

answer that fits the entire U.S. That in itself is the problem. Here in Tx.

we are unique due to our extremely diverse population, geography and even

weather. What works in Dallas will not necessarily work in Dal hart or

Marfa. We as a group have had many discussions on this. What works in Maine

may not work in Colorado. Not any one protocol or SOP's will fit every EMS

system.

But now we are supposed to believe that one standard test will fit all.

That seems to be a flawed assumption. I know the argument is we need one

standard and to that I agree. I remember a story about how NR received a

complaint from Alaska about a question involving a man hole, they did not

know what one was. NR removed that question from the test, I know, hear say,

But you get the idea.

How can you justify giving the exact test to candidates from N.Y. City,

Houston, Fairbanks, O.K. City, Salem, Port Aransas, Tampa, Flagstaff and

numerous others without having problems with terminology and grammar. Would

a La Crosse candidate know the meaning to " fixin too " ? Would a Alabama

candidate understand " Yous guys " ? There are just too many hurdles to jump

for a test to be all inclusive. Before you get on the we all learned the

same english in school bandwagon take a few seconds to think about it. Not

sure if I would agree to that. You could have regional tests that still ask

the same questions but in a way that is clearer to the candidates. Also you

take all the time teaching folks to use their critical thinking skills just

to have them take a direct answer test. Hmmmm so my question is can you

really have one test that fits all?

Rednecks, Yankees, Hill 's and Yuppies all on the same page...

[Guest guest]

To all,

I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre-entrance

exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre-entrance exam

for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

pre-entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

both the course and the first pass of the exam.

So, yes, we need to have pre-entrance exams for students and weed out

those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

well for EMS education.

Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

Where do we go from here?

Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

Education Director

Marfa City/County EMS

[Guest guest]

To all,

I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre-entrance

exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre-entrance exam

for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

pre-entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

both the course and the first pass of the exam.

So, yes, we need to have pre-entrance exams for students and weed out

those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

well for EMS education.

Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

Where do we go from here?

Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

Education Director

Marfa City/County EMS

[Guest guest]

To all,

I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre-entrance

exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre-entrance exam

for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

pre-entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

both the course and the first pass of the exam.

So, yes, we need to have pre-entrance exams for students and weed out

those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

well for EMS education.

Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

Where do we go from here?

Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

Education Director

Marfa City/County EMS

[Guest guest]

In for a penny, in for a pound I guess...

I have to agree that our public education system needs a serious

boost. I graduated from high school back in '89 as a slightly above

average student who was not taking courses to prepare me for collage as

I was intending on taking a different track (military). After school

and I began to meet people from other parts of the country and from

different countries and I began to realize how much I didn't know.

Eventually, I went out and learned things for myself and the more I

learned (some of which was very different from what I learned in school)

the more disappointed in our education system I have become. So, yes,

we do have to raise the bar and demand better. After, as taxpayers we

are the ones footing the bill on our children's education. The

education budget needs to go more to teachers and teaching aids than to

administration. In most school districts, the tail is definitely

wagging the dog. It seems at times that the administrators think that

the teachers are working for them when in fact they are supposed to be

supporting the teachers. I do understand that somebody needs to run

things, but to my mind the administrators should be getting the things

the teachers need. Not telling the teachers what they can have. I

guess you could call that a pipe dream, but as long as the average Jack

and Jill accepts the status quo things will not change. When I decided

to give becoming an EMT a try, I was lucky. My mother is an RN (and has

been for over 35 years) and she was a great help to me with terminology

and anatomy (nothing like free tutoring, right), but not everybody can

do that and I think it tragic that there are people out there who have

the potential but do not have the tools to make the most of that potential.

That being said, a possible solution would be an EMT prep course

that would cover some of the language and reading comprehension basics.

That would give hopefuls the basis on which to build on during an actual

EMT course. That way, if a person just cant get it, they would not have

spent as much money finding that out and those who can get it will be

better prepared for the EMT course. These pre entrance tests that have

been in use for last few years should be able to provide enough data to

show what the most common educational shortfalls are and so can be used

to tailor a prep course that could hopefully lowed the dropout and

failure rates of the EMT courses.

Crosby

Jeanne E. Amis wrote:

>To all,

> I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre entrance

>exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre entrance exam

>for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

>I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

>pre entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

>now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

> The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

>science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

>considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

>the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

> The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

>unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

>did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

>word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

>but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

>both the course and the first pass of the exam.

> So, yes, we need to have pre entrance exams for students and weed out

>those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

>science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

>Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

>knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

>despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

>college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

>remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

>well for EMS education.

> Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

>with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

> Where do we go from here?

>Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

>Education Director

>Marfa City/County EMS

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In for a penny, in for a pound I guess...

I have to agree that our public education system needs a serious

boost. I graduated from high school back in '89 as a slightly above

average student who was not taking courses to prepare me for collage as

I was intending on taking a different track (military). After school

and I began to meet people from other parts of the country and from

different countries and I began to realize how much I didn't know.

Eventually, I went out and learned things for myself and the more I

learned (some of which was very different from what I learned in school)

the more disappointed in our education system I have become. So, yes,

we do have to raise the bar and demand better. After, as taxpayers we

are the ones footing the bill on our children's education. The

education budget needs to go more to teachers and teaching aids than to

administration. In most school districts, the tail is definitely

wagging the dog. It seems at times that the administrators think that

the teachers are working for them when in fact they are supposed to be

supporting the teachers. I do understand that somebody needs to run

things, but to my mind the administrators should be getting the things

the teachers need. Not telling the teachers what they can have. I

guess you could call that a pipe dream, but as long as the average Jack

and Jill accepts the status quo things will not change. When I decided

to give becoming an EMT a try, I was lucky. My mother is an RN (and has

been for over 35 years) and she was a great help to me with terminology

and anatomy (nothing like free tutoring, right), but not everybody can

do that and I think it tragic that there are people out there who have

the potential but do not have the tools to make the most of that potential.

That being said, a possible solution would be an EMT prep course

that would cover some of the language and reading comprehension basics.

That would give hopefuls the basis on which to build on during an actual

EMT course. That way, if a person just cant get it, they would not have

spent as much money finding that out and those who can get it will be

better prepared for the EMT course. These pre entrance tests that have

been in use for last few years should be able to provide enough data to

show what the most common educational shortfalls are and so can be used

to tailor a prep course that could hopefully lowed the dropout and

failure rates of the EMT courses.

Crosby

Jeanne E. Amis wrote:

>To all,

> I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre entrance

>exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre entrance exam

>for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

>I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

>pre entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

>now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

> The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

>science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

>considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

>the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

> The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

>unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

>did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

>word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

>but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

>both the course and the first pass of the exam.

> So, yes, we need to have pre entrance exams for students and weed out

>those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

>science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

>Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

>knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

>despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

>college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

>remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

>well for EMS education.

> Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

>with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

> Where do we go from here?

>Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

>Education Director

>Marfa City/County EMS

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In for a penny, in for a pound I guess...

I have to agree that our public education system needs a serious

boost. I graduated from high school back in '89 as a slightly above

average student who was not taking courses to prepare me for collage as

I was intending on taking a different track (military). After school

and I began to meet people from other parts of the country and from

different countries and I began to realize how much I didn't know.

Eventually, I went out and learned things for myself and the more I

learned (some of which was very different from what I learned in school)

the more disappointed in our education system I have become. So, yes,

we do have to raise the bar and demand better. After, as taxpayers we

are the ones footing the bill on our children's education. The

education budget needs to go more to teachers and teaching aids than to

administration. In most school districts, the tail is definitely

wagging the dog. It seems at times that the administrators think that

the teachers are working for them when in fact they are supposed to be

supporting the teachers. I do understand that somebody needs to run

things, but to my mind the administrators should be getting the things

the teachers need. Not telling the teachers what they can have. I

guess you could call that a pipe dream, but as long as the average Jack

and Jill accepts the status quo things will not change. When I decided

to give becoming an EMT a try, I was lucky. My mother is an RN (and has

been for over 35 years) and she was a great help to me with terminology

and anatomy (nothing like free tutoring, right), but not everybody can

do that and I think it tragic that there are people out there who have

the potential but do not have the tools to make the most of that potential.

That being said, a possible solution would be an EMT prep course

that would cover some of the language and reading comprehension basics.

That would give hopefuls the basis on which to build on during an actual

EMT course. That way, if a person just cant get it, they would not have

spent as much money finding that out and those who can get it will be

better prepared for the EMT course. These pre entrance tests that have

been in use for last few years should be able to provide enough data to

show what the most common educational shortfalls are and so can be used

to tailor a prep course that could hopefully lowed the dropout and

failure rates of the EMT courses.

Crosby

Jeanne E. Amis wrote:

>To all,

> I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre entrance

>exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre entrance exam

>for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

>I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

>pre entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

>now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

> The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

>science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

>considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

>the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

> The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

>unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

>did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

>word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

>but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

>both the course and the first pass of the exam.

> So, yes, we need to have pre entrance exams for students and weed out

>those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

>science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

>Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

>knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

>despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

>college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

>remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

>well for EMS education.

> Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

>with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

> Where do we go from here?

>Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

>Education Director

>Marfa City/County EMS

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

As long as certain EMS employers are willing to hire an EMT or Paramedic

with the only requirements being that the applicant have a patch and a

pulse, the entrance to education issue is moot. Poor education programs will

arise around services that have minimal standards and pay and this

phenomenon will forever hold EMS back and continue the proferring of slave

wages.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

Re: Entrance testing

To all,

I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre-entrance

exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre-entrance exam

for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

pre-entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

both the course and the first pass of the exam.

So, yes, we need to have pre-entrance exams for students and weed out

those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

well for EMS education.

Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

Where do we go from here?

Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

Education Director

Marfa City/County EMS

[Guest guest]

As long as certain EMS employers are willing to hire an EMT or Paramedic

with the only requirements being that the applicant have a patch and a

pulse, the entrance to education issue is moot. Poor education programs will

arise around services that have minimal standards and pay and this

phenomenon will forever hold EMS back and continue the proferring of slave

wages.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

Re: Entrance testing

To all,

I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre-entrance

exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre-entrance exam

for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

pre-entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

both the course and the first pass of the exam.

So, yes, we need to have pre-entrance exams for students and weed out

those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

well for EMS education.

Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

Where do we go from here?

Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

Education Director

Marfa City/County EMS

[Guest guest]

On the same note, there are facilities that hire RN's due to the same

conditions. However, they are able to obtain liveable wages. Understand, I am

not comparing the two educational wise. Since I have been taking the Pre-Med

courses I can tell you that there is a huge difference in the education. Unless

an individual takes the AAS Paramedic course [ like Tarrant County College ]

then one would not understand. A 6 month paramedic course DOES NOT compare.

Until all Paramedic programs require a college degree and not a certificate of

completion, then our wages will always be low. Problem is, most EMS workers I

know and have met do not think one needs a college degree..Go figure...

Joby Berkley EMT-P, A.A.S.

Bledsoe wrote:

As long as certain EMS employers are willing to hire an EMT or Paramedic

with the only requirements being that the applicant have a patch and a

pulse, the entrance to education issue is moot. Poor education programs will

arise around services that have minimal standards and pay and this

phenomenon will forever hold EMS back and continue the proferring of slave

wages.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

Re: Entrance testing

To all,

I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre-entrance

exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre-entrance exam

for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

pre-entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

both the course and the first pass of the exam.

So, yes, we need to have pre-entrance exams for students and weed out

those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

well for EMS education.

Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

Where do we go from here?

Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

Education Director

Marfa City/County EMS

[Guest guest]

On the same note, there are facilities that hire RN's due to the same

conditions. However, they are able to obtain liveable wages. Understand, I am

not comparing the two educational wise. Since I have been taking the Pre-Med

courses I can tell you that there is a huge difference in the education. Unless

an individual takes the AAS Paramedic course [ like Tarrant County College ]

then one would not understand. A 6 month paramedic course DOES NOT compare.

Until all Paramedic programs require a college degree and not a certificate of

completion, then our wages will always be low. Problem is, most EMS workers I

know and have met do not think one needs a college degree..Go figure...

Joby Berkley EMT-P, A.A.S.

Bledsoe wrote:

As long as certain EMS employers are willing to hire an EMT or Paramedic

with the only requirements being that the applicant have a patch and a

pulse, the entrance to education issue is moot. Poor education programs will

arise around services that have minimal standards and pay and this

phenomenon will forever hold EMS back and continue the proferring of slave

wages.

E. Bledsoe, DO, FACEP

Midlothian, TX

Re: Entrance testing

To all,

I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre-entrance

exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre-entrance exam

for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

pre-entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

both the course and the first pass of the exam.

So, yes, we need to have pre-entrance exams for students and weed out

those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

well for EMS education.

Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

Where do we go from here?

Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

Education Director

Marfa City/County EMS

[Guest guest]

I really do like this. For one to become enrolled into a RN, PA or MD/DO

program, one must first pass an entrance exam. Why not the same for Paramedic

school.

Good for you....

Joby Berkley EMT-P, A.A.S.

" Jeanne E. Amis " wrote:

To all,

I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre-entrance

exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre-entrance exam

for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

pre-entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

both the course and the first pass of the exam.

So, yes, we need to have pre-entrance exams for students and weed out

those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

well for EMS education.

Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

Where do we go from here?

Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

Education Director

Marfa City/County EMS

[Guest guest]

I really do like this. For one to become enrolled into a RN, PA or MD/DO

program, one must first pass an entrance exam. Why not the same for Paramedic

school.

Good for you....

Joby Berkley EMT-P, A.A.S.

" Jeanne E. Amis " wrote:

To all,

I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre-entrance

exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre-entrance exam

for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

pre-entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

both the course and the first pass of the exam.

So, yes, we need to have pre-entrance exams for students and weed out

those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

well for EMS education.

Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

Where do we go from here?

Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

Education Director

Marfa City/County EMS

[Guest guest]

Jeanne hits the target squarely in the middle. My experience mirrors hers.

I graduated from a Podunk High School with 40 in my graduating class in 1956,

before most of you were conceived. Yet every one of us could read, write,

spell, and do acceptable math to get along in the world. A large percentage of

us went to college and have led successful lives.

Contrast this with the students graduating from high schools now. TAAS is a

cruel joke perpretrated upon the public by politicians. Jeanne is right that

the first year in college is often spent teaching students what they should

have learned in high school. That was certainly true at Tyler Junior College

during the last 10 years I was there.

The public schools have failed miserably. One reason is that now there is a

generation of TEACHERS who cannot read, write, spell, and make change

themselves.

I became quite adept at teaching 6th grade arithmetic to my intermediate and

paramedic students when it came time to do drip rates and drug calculations.

I remember some rather sad but hilarious examples of students who had no

concept of the logic of numbers at all. Once I gave a drug calc problem to give

1/4 grain morphine from a 10mg/ml solution. For those of you not familiar with

the apothecary system, that's 15 mg.

One student came up with 15,000 ml as the dose to be given. After I got up

off the floor I went and retrieved 15 liter bags of Ringers from the supply

room, stacked them on my desk and said, " Is this how much morphine you wish to

adminster? " " How many elephants do you wish to put down? "

Often, when teaching the " clock " method of infusion administration, I would,

when illustrating that 60 gtt = 1 ml = x mg, state that " things that are equal

to the same thing are equal to each other, " a geometry maxim. I would

invariably get the " deer in the headlights " look.

When showing people how to figure drips with a 60 drop set over 1 hour, I

would cancel out the 60s and show them that the amount to be given was the same

as the number of gtt to be run. Somebody would invariably say, " how did you

get that? " or " I don't see it. "

It was then that I began shaving my head so that I wouldn't be able to rip my

hair out.

Best,

GG

In a message dated 8/29/04 12:09:24 Central Daylight Time,

jea@... writes:

> Subj:Re: Entrance testing

> Date:8/29/04 12:09:24 Central Daylight Time

> From:jea@...

> Reply-to:

> To:

> Sent from the Internet

>

>

>

> To all,

> I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre-entrance

> exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre-entrance exam

> for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

> I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

> pre-entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

> now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

> The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

> science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

> considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

> the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

> The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

> unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

> did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

> word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

> but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

> both the course and the first pass of the exam.

> So, yes, we need to have pre-entrance exams for students and weed out

> those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

> science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

> Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

> knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

> despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

> college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

> remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

> well for EMS education.

> Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

> with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

> Where do we go from here?

> Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

> Education Director

> Marfa City/County EMS

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jeanne hits the target squarely in the middle. My experience mirrors hers.

I graduated from a Podunk High School with 40 in my graduating class in 1956,

before most of you were conceived. Yet every one of us could read, write,

spell, and do acceptable math to get along in the world. A large percentage of

us went to college and have led successful lives.

Contrast this with the students graduating from high schools now. TAAS is a

cruel joke perpretrated upon the public by politicians. Jeanne is right that

the first year in college is often spent teaching students what they should

have learned in high school. That was certainly true at Tyler Junior College

during the last 10 years I was there.

The public schools have failed miserably. One reason is that now there is a

generation of TEACHERS who cannot read, write, spell, and make change

themselves.

I became quite adept at teaching 6th grade arithmetic to my intermediate and

paramedic students when it came time to do drip rates and drug calculations.

I remember some rather sad but hilarious examples of students who had no

concept of the logic of numbers at all. Once I gave a drug calc problem to give

1/4 grain morphine from a 10mg/ml solution. For those of you not familiar with

the apothecary system, that's 15 mg.

One student came up with 15,000 ml as the dose to be given. After I got up

off the floor I went and retrieved 15 liter bags of Ringers from the supply

room, stacked them on my desk and said, " Is this how much morphine you wish to

adminster? " " How many elephants do you wish to put down? "

Often, when teaching the " clock " method of infusion administration, I would,

when illustrating that 60 gtt = 1 ml = x mg, state that " things that are equal

to the same thing are equal to each other, " a geometry maxim. I would

invariably get the " deer in the headlights " look.

When showing people how to figure drips with a 60 drop set over 1 hour, I

would cancel out the 60s and show them that the amount to be given was the same

as the number of gtt to be run. Somebody would invariably say, " how did you

get that? " or " I don't see it. "

It was then that I began shaving my head so that I wouldn't be able to rip my

hair out.

Best,

GG

In a message dated 8/29/04 12:09:24 Central Daylight Time,

jea@... writes:

> Subj:Re: Entrance testing

> Date:8/29/04 12:09:24 Central Daylight Time

> From:jea@...

> Reply-to:

> To:

> Sent from the Internet

>

>

>

> To all,

> I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre-entrance

> exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre-entrance exam

> for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

> I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

> pre-entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

> now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

> The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

> science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

> considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

> the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

> The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

> unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

> did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

> word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

> but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

> both the course and the first pass of the exam.

> So, yes, we need to have pre-entrance exams for students and weed out

> those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

> science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

> Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

> knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

> despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

> college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

> remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

> well for EMS education.

> Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

> with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

> Where do we go from here?

> Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

> Education Director

> Marfa City/County EMS

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jeanne hits the target squarely in the middle. My experience mirrors hers.

I graduated from a Podunk High School with 40 in my graduating class in 1956,

before most of you were conceived. Yet every one of us could read, write,

spell, and do acceptable math to get along in the world. A large percentage of

us went to college and have led successful lives.

Contrast this with the students graduating from high schools now. TAAS is a

cruel joke perpretrated upon the public by politicians. Jeanne is right that

the first year in college is often spent teaching students what they should

have learned in high school. That was certainly true at Tyler Junior College

during the last 10 years I was there.

The public schools have failed miserably. One reason is that now there is a

generation of TEACHERS who cannot read, write, spell, and make change

themselves.

I became quite adept at teaching 6th grade arithmetic to my intermediate and

paramedic students when it came time to do drip rates and drug calculations.

I remember some rather sad but hilarious examples of students who had no

concept of the logic of numbers at all. Once I gave a drug calc problem to give

1/4 grain morphine from a 10mg/ml solution. For those of you not familiar with

the apothecary system, that's 15 mg.

One student came up with 15,000 ml as the dose to be given. After I got up

off the floor I went and retrieved 15 liter bags of Ringers from the supply

room, stacked them on my desk and said, " Is this how much morphine you wish to

adminster? " " How many elephants do you wish to put down? "

Often, when teaching the " clock " method of infusion administration, I would,

when illustrating that 60 gtt = 1 ml = x mg, state that " things that are equal

to the same thing are equal to each other, " a geometry maxim. I would

invariably get the " deer in the headlights " look.

When showing people how to figure drips with a 60 drop set over 1 hour, I

would cancel out the 60s and show them that the amount to be given was the same

as the number of gtt to be run. Somebody would invariably say, " how did you

get that? " or " I don't see it. "

It was then that I began shaving my head so that I wouldn't be able to rip my

hair out.

Best,

GG

In a message dated 8/29/04 12:09:24 Central Daylight Time,

jea@... writes:

> Subj:Re: Entrance testing

> Date:8/29/04 12:09:24 Central Daylight Time

> From:jea@...

> Reply-to:

> To:

> Sent from the Internet

>

>

>

> To all,

> I'm going to put my foot in this one. I have been giving a pre-entrance

> exam to classes for the last 3 years. It is based on the pre-entrance exam

> for LVN candidates for ECA and EMT-B and for RN candidates for EMT-I and P.

> I have not excluded students, simply compared their success rate on the

> pre-entrance exam with their ability to pass the course and the state test,

> now the NR. Some interesting results have showed up.

> The test I gave included word knowledge, reading comprehension, math and

> science. Only the word knowledge and reading comprehension scores were

> considered germane to the student's ability to complete the course and pass

> the credentialing exam. The cutoff score was 50%.

> The results were disheartening. Approximately 60% of the students were

> unable to pass the word knowledge and reading comprehension. Those same 60%

> did not complete the course. Of those remaining 40%, 20% scored low on the

> word knowledge and reading comprehension and were able to pass the course,

> but not the first pass of the credentialing exam. The remaining 20% passed

> both the course and the first pass of the exam.

> So, yes, we need to have pre-entrance exams for students and weed out

> those that do not have the basic language abilities, not to mention math and

> science knowledge. But where can we refer them to remedy the situation?

> Obviously our high schools are not graduating students with the essential

> knowledge required for basic literacy in an increasingly technical age

> despite the claims of the TASS test. The large majority of Freshmen in

> college spend the entire first year and sometimes part of the second,

> remediating what they failed to learn in high school. This does not bode

> well for EMS education.

> Yes, we need to up the bar on education, but we need something to work

> with initially. Our school system is failing us on that aspect.

> Where do we go from here?

> Jeanne E. Amis, RN, LP

> Education Director

> Marfa City/County EMS

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Phil-

It really becomes an expectations game. If you only expect mediocrity, your

students certainly aren't going to give you anything more than that. I

believe some of it does have to do with the current curriculum. Instead of

teaching students that beta blockade is useful in ischemic chest pain, they

need to be challenged to understand WHY it is useful in ischemic chest pain.

This isn't about teaching individuals to think critically- if they can't do

that they have no business in EMS. It is about requiring some synthesis and

evaluation instead of just requiring them to regurgitate some worthless

little saying like " All chest pain gets MONA " .

I suppose everything comes down to expectations. As Dr. Bledsoe pointed

out, most EMS companies only expect a patch and a pulse. You have the

problem of the best and brightest choosing NOT to enter a field where they

will consistently make between $9 and $15 per hour, so it is a perpetual

cycle. Let's not be mistaken here- high schools are still turning out some

VERY intelligent people. There isn't a vacuum in that regard. They just

don't want to think about EMS as a career.

I have decided to go back and get my bachelors degree in EMS. But do you

think anyone I will work for will give a damn whether I have a baccalaureate

degree vs. a certificate from the local mom and pop? NO! Nobody cares, and

so there is no incentive. Because there is no incentive, I don't think it

will change.

-

RE: Entrance testing

--- scotterems@... wrote:

The individuals who fail the

> National Registry exam with a 69%

> do not fail it by 1 percentage point. They

> fail it by 31 points. If you

> can find a couple of questions that you do not

> consider to be appropriate,

> there are still 29 or 30 that were perfectly

> legitimate.

Nicely stated. My very first EMT instructor told

me 20 years ago that a standardized test only

tests about 70% of the curriculum anyway, so if a

candidate writes a perfect score, s/he has

demonstrated knowledge on only 70% of the

curriculum. I don't know if that's true or not,

but it lead nicely into his very next statement,

which was " so keep studying forever. "

> So where is the problem? I believe it

> originates from both the students and

> faculty of paramedic training programs.

Maybe. I'll argue that it is not the Paramedic

Program's job to teach a student to read and

write English. A student should have those basic

skills when they graduate from 6th grade. What I

disagree with, however, is that (a) a program

should test at the 6th grade level, and ( that

a 6th grade level should be acceptable

performance for a Paramedic student.

After all, I don't want my 6th-grade daughter

making life-and-death decisions, [ALL UNITS:

Stand by for Proud Daddy moment] even though she

reads at the 12.8 grade level, according to

standardized tests.

> However, I also believe that

> instructors have failed miserably in requiring

> at least some degree of

> critical thinking from students.

I hate having to teach adults to think.

Thinking, in my opinion, should be a basic skill.

That's like saying I'll give you a tool set and

then teach you to work on cars.

You mentioned

> that " Not any one

> protocol... will fit every system " . That is

> very true, and it clearly

> represents why the emphasis must be placed on

> understanding the rationale

> behind the protocol rather than merely

> memorizing the protocol itself.

Well said.

> There is probably not one protocol that is

> appropriate for every EMS system-

> at least not one I have seen. But if you teach

> students to understand the

> fundamental concepts that underlie the

> protocols, they can take those

> concepts and use them to develop a basic

> understanding that can be applied

> to almost any protocol or treatment strategy.

Again, well said.

The

> cream floats to the top and the sludge sinks to

> the bottom, and when you

> only expect a sixth grade level of reasoning,

> you are dragging the bottom of

> the bucket.

You don't suppose that bears any relation to the

generally sorry pay scales, do you? I wonder...

stay safe - phil

[Guest guest]

Phil-

It really becomes an expectations game. If you only expect mediocrity, your

students certainly aren't going to give you anything more than that. I

believe some of it does have to do with the current curriculum. Instead of

teaching students that beta blockade is useful in ischemic chest pain, they

need to be challenged to understand WHY it is useful in ischemic chest pain.

This isn't about teaching individuals to think critically- if they can't do

that they have no business in EMS. It is about requiring some synthesis and

evaluation instead of just requiring them to regurgitate some worthless

little saying like " All chest pain gets MONA " .

I suppose everything comes down to expectations. As Dr. Bledsoe pointed

out, most EMS companies only expect a patch and a pulse. You have the

problem of the best and brightest choosing NOT to enter a field where they

will consistently make between $9 and $15 per hour, so it is a perpetual

cycle. Let's not be mistaken here- high schools are still turning out some

VERY intelligent people. There isn't a vacuum in that regard. They just

don't want to think about EMS as a career.

I have decided to go back and get my bachelors degree in EMS. But do you

think anyone I will work for will give a damn whether I have a baccalaureate

degree vs. a certificate from the local mom and pop? NO! Nobody cares, and

so there is no incentive. Because there is no incentive, I don't think it

will change.

-

RE: Entrance testing

--- scotterems@... wrote:

The individuals who fail the

> National Registry exam with a 69%

> do not fail it by 1 percentage point. They

> fail it by 31 points. If you

> can find a couple of questions that you do not

> consider to be appropriate,

> there are still 29 or 30 that were perfectly

> legitimate.

Nicely stated. My very first EMT instructor told

me 20 years ago that a standardized test only

tests about 70% of the curriculum anyway, so if a

candidate writes a perfect score, s/he has

demonstrated knowledge on only 70% of the

curriculum. I don't know if that's true or not,

but it lead nicely into his very next statement,

which was " so keep studying forever. "

> So where is the problem? I believe it

> originates from both the students and

> faculty of paramedic training programs.

Maybe. I'll argue that it is not the Paramedic

Program's job to teach a student to read and

write English. A student should have those basic

skills when they graduate from 6th grade. What I

disagree with, however, is that (a) a program

should test at the 6th grade level, and ( that

a 6th grade level should be acceptable

performance for a Paramedic student.

After all, I don't want my 6th-grade daughter

making life-and-death decisions, [ALL UNITS:

Stand by for Proud Daddy moment] even though she

reads at the 12.8 grade level, according to

standardized tests.

> However, I also believe that

> instructors have failed miserably in requiring

> at least some degree of

> critical thinking from students.

I hate having to teach adults to think.

Thinking, in my opinion, should be a basic skill.

That's like saying I'll give you a tool set and

then teach you to work on cars.

You mentioned

> that " Not any one

> protocol... will fit every system " . That is

> very true, and it clearly

> represents why the emphasis must be placed on

> understanding the rationale

> behind the protocol rather than merely

> memorizing the protocol itself.

Well said.

> There is probably not one protocol that is

> appropriate for every EMS system-

> at least not one I have seen. But if you teach

> students to understand the

> fundamental concepts that underlie the

> protocols, they can take those

> concepts and use them to develop a basic

> understanding that can be applied

> to almost any protocol or treatment strategy.

Again, well said.

The

> cream floats to the top and the sludge sinks to

> the bottom, and when you

> only expect a sixth grade level of reasoning,

> you are dragging the bottom of

> the bucket.

You don't suppose that bears any relation to the

generally sorry pay scales, do you? I wonder...

stay safe - phil