Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 i dont know, just what your doing now. he wrote a intelligent, well reasoned response, which just happens to be critical of aa. i dont see anger in this, but in aa to be critical of program will be met with response of " why rae you angry? " as if only unreasoned anger, a defect in their character, is only way someone could have anything negative to say about AA. usually it is suggested as a sign they aren't working a good enough Program. Bill himself set this example himself. AApes follow it to a T. maybe a slogan will be tacked on for good measure, " sit down shut up and learn something stupid " , or " your best thinking got you here " , you know, just to remind them they shouldn't think for themselves and to diffuse any critical or rational thinking. but while we are on anger, why not be angry at a anti intellectual religious cult, which lies to and verbally abuses new recruits when they are the most vulnerable point of their lives, suppresses critical and rational thought all i order in inject their god control belief system? a group who the teachings of a life long chronically depressive and disturbed man who while detoxing and tripping belladonna, had a " god " experience, and was introduced to a god control cult the following day, and who spiritual " awakening was so shallow felt the need to use LSD to recreate his " spiritual experience " . why not be angry with a group which holds as it leader, and its main text the attacks upon agnostics and atheists for their lack of belief and in same breathe asks not to be prejudiced against people who believe in god. why ot be angry at group which offers death threats for those who leave or ignore the cults teachings? i could go on, but there is no point. your in wrong place. Bill Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles in March, 1943 " There is a definite religious element here " " unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant . . . We must obey certain principles or we die. " , W.] (1957). Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., page 119 " To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face. " We AgnosticsBig book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 i dont know, just what your doing now. he wrote a intelligent, well reasoned response, which just happens to be critical of aa. i dont see anger in this, but in aa to be critical of program will be met with response of " why rae you angry? " as if only unreasoned anger, a defect in their character, is only way someone could have anything negative to say about AA. usually it is suggested as a sign they aren't working a good enough Program. Bill himself set this example himself. AApes follow it to a T. maybe a slogan will be tacked on for good measure, " sit down shut up and learn something stupid " , or " your best thinking got you here " , you know, just to remind them they shouldn't think for themselves and to diffuse any critical or rational thinking. but while we are on anger, why not be angry at a anti intellectual religious cult, which lies to and verbally abuses new recruits when they are the most vulnerable point of their lives, suppresses critical and rational thought all i order in inject their god control belief system? a group who the teachings of a life long chronically depressive and disturbed man who while detoxing and tripping belladonna, had a " god " experience, and was introduced to a god control cult the following day, and who spiritual " awakening was so shallow felt the need to use LSD to recreate his " spiritual experience " . why not be angry with a group which holds as it leader, and its main text the attacks upon agnostics and atheists for their lack of belief and in same breathe asks not to be prejudiced against people who believe in god. why ot be angry at group which offers death threats for those who leave or ignore the cults teachings? i could go on, but there is no point. your in wrong place. Bill Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles in March, 1943 " There is a definite religious element here " " unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant . . . We must obey certain principles or we die. " , W.] (1957). Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., page 119 " To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face. " We AgnosticsBig book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 Many members of AA do not have a clear > knowledge of the program as described in the book " Alcoholics Anoymous " . which program is that? the it the one swhere we turn our lives over to god but claim its not relgious? Bill and Dr. Bob Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles in March, 1943 Bill : " Divine Aid was A.A.'s greatest asset... " " An alcoholic is a fellow who is " trying to get his religion out of a bottle, " when what he really wants is unity within himself, unity with God. . . . " " There is a definite religious element here, Dr. Bob: " Read religious literature. Resume church attendance, cultivate the habit of prayer, and transmit the desires and principles of Alcoholics Anonymous to others. " The paper added: " He particularly recommended reading the Bible. " or how about the one where you can take what you want and leave the rest? Bill wrote that, " unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant . . . We must obey certain principles or we die. " , W.] (1957). Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., page 119. or is it one where god is of " our " Understanding? AA's Higher Power FBI Profile _____________________ all facts about " Him " were offered by bill in Big Book and 12-steps Bill tells us god is of our understanding, but he cant seem to help himselffrom filling in the blanks for us as to how god works for us though. i guess if my understanding of god is one which doesn't restore sanity, listens to my prayers and removes defects, i cant do steps. These were found in minutes in a scan of a few chapters. It would take a week to pull all the specific ideals expressed to describe how god of " our " understanding is, and how this god of " our " understanding will work for us from the over 400 references to " God " in BB. restores sanity listens to our prayers removes defects is a living creator and whom we are its children is male has conscious contact with us has relationships with us, has a will intended us to carry. Does for us what we could not do for ourselves. he is a " Creative Intelligence " " Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things " He doesn't make too hard terms with those who seek Him the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive is a All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence we are " intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever advancing Creation " is the Spirit of the Universe Presence of Infinite Power and Love or is the one where athiest and agnostics are welcome? Slander of Non Believers _____________________ from the below passages, mainly from " we agnostics " , we can see from the language used, the disdain bill wilson had for non believers. here are some of the themes expressed in describing agnostics in this one small chapter. Imagine how he must have felt about atheists. its also noteworthy that other addiction recovery models dont feel its necessary to slam atheists and agnostics and decicate a whole chapter to doing so, but they aren't accused of being religious either. " prejudiced " evasive biased unreasonable close minded spiritually obsolete ignorant touchy deluded antagonistic vain illogical " less " sane dishonest narrow in vision/backward thinking " soft and mushy " thinkers worshippers of " people, sentiment, things, money, and ourselves " " handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice " Promises, threats and predictions of death: " doomed to an alcoholic death " " But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life -- or else. " " Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions. In this respect alcohol was a great persuader. It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness " A.A. is more than a set of principles; it is a society of alcoholics in action. We must carry the message, else we ourselves can wither and those who haven't been given the truth may die. .. SERVICE MANUAL, P. 6 Below is the actual text from BB --------------- Yes, we of agnostic temperament have had these thoughts and experiences. Let us make haste to reassure you. We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God. Here difficulty arises with agnostics. Many times we talk to a new man and watch his hope rise as we discuss his alcoholic problems and explain our fellowship. But his face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored. To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face. But it isn't so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life -- or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. Our experience shows that you need not be disconcerted. ------------- we often found ourselves handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice. Many of us have been so touchy that even casual reference to spiritual things make us bristle with antagonism. This sort of thinking had to be abandoned. Though some of us resisted, we found no great difficulty in casting aside such feelings. Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions. In this respect alcohol was a great persuader. It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness. Sometimes this was a tedious process; we hope no one else will prejudiced for as long as some of us were. ------------------ we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all. Rather vain of us, wasn't it? --- This world of ours has made more material progress in the last century than in all the millenniums which went before. Almost everyone knows the reason. Students of ancient history tell us that the intellect of men in those days was equal to the best of today. Yet in ancient times, material progress was painfully slow. The spirit of modern scientific inquiry, research and invention was almost unknown. In the realm of the material, men's minds were fettered by superstition, tradition, and all sort of fixed ideas. Some of the contemporaries of Columbus thought a round earth preposterous. Others came near putting Galileo to death for his astronomical heresies. We asked ourselves this: Are not some of us just as biased and unreasonable about the realm of the spirit as were the ancients about the realm of the material? -------------- When we saw others solve their problems by a simple reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we had to stop doubting the power of God. Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did. --------------- We agnostics and atheists were sticking to the idea that self- sufficiency would solve our problems. When others showed us that " God-sufficiency " worked with them, we began to feel like those who had insisted the s would never fly. --------- Logic is great stuff. We like it. We still like it. It is not by chance we were given the power to reason, to examine the evidence of our sense, and to draw conclusions. That is one of man's magnificent attributes. We agnostically inclined would not feel satisfied with a proposal which does not lend itself to reasonable approach and interpretation. Hence we are at pains to tell why we think our present faith is reasonable, why we think it more sane and logical to believe than not to believe, why we say our former thinking was soft and mushy when we threw up our hands in doubt and said, " We don't know. " -------- did we not have confidence in our ability to think? What was that but a sort of faith? Yes, we had been faithful, abjectly faithful to the God of Reason. So, in one way or another, we discovered that faith had been involved all the time! We found, too, that we had been worshippers. What a state of mental goose-flesh that used to bring on! Had we not variously worshipped people, sentiment, things, money, and ourselves? ----------------- We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testimony helps sweep away prejudice, enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway. With this attitude you cannot fail. the consciousness of your belief is sure to come to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 Many members of AA do not have a clear > knowledge of the program as described in the book " Alcoholics Anoymous " . which program is that? the it the one swhere we turn our lives over to god but claim its not relgious? Bill and Dr. Bob Shrine Auditorium in Los Angeles in March, 1943 Bill : " Divine Aid was A.A.'s greatest asset... " " An alcoholic is a fellow who is " trying to get his religion out of a bottle, " when what he really wants is unity within himself, unity with God. . . . " " There is a definite religious element here, Dr. Bob: " Read religious literature. Resume church attendance, cultivate the habit of prayer, and transmit the desires and principles of Alcoholics Anonymous to others. " The paper added: " He particularly recommended reading the Bible. " or how about the one where you can take what you want and leave the rest? Bill wrote that, " unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps of recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant . . . We must obey certain principles or we die. " , W.] (1957). Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, New York: Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., page 119. or is it one where god is of " our " Understanding? AA's Higher Power FBI Profile _____________________ all facts about " Him " were offered by bill in Big Book and 12-steps Bill tells us god is of our understanding, but he cant seem to help himselffrom filling in the blanks for us as to how god works for us though. i guess if my understanding of god is one which doesn't restore sanity, listens to my prayers and removes defects, i cant do steps. These were found in minutes in a scan of a few chapters. It would take a week to pull all the specific ideals expressed to describe how god of " our " understanding is, and how this god of " our " understanding will work for us from the over 400 references to " God " in BB. restores sanity listens to our prayers removes defects is a living creator and whom we are its children is male has conscious contact with us has relationships with us, has a will intended us to carry. Does for us what we could not do for ourselves. he is a " Creative Intelligence " " Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things " He doesn't make too hard terms with those who seek Him the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive is a All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence we are " intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever advancing Creation " is the Spirit of the Universe Presence of Infinite Power and Love or is the one where athiest and agnostics are welcome? Slander of Non Believers _____________________ from the below passages, mainly from " we agnostics " , we can see from the language used, the disdain bill wilson had for non believers. here are some of the themes expressed in describing agnostics in this one small chapter. Imagine how he must have felt about atheists. its also noteworthy that other addiction recovery models dont feel its necessary to slam atheists and agnostics and decicate a whole chapter to doing so, but they aren't accused of being religious either. " prejudiced " evasive biased unreasonable close minded spiritually obsolete ignorant touchy deluded antagonistic vain illogical " less " sane dishonest narrow in vision/backward thinking " soft and mushy " thinkers worshippers of " people, sentiment, things, money, and ourselves " " handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice " Promises, threats and predictions of death: " doomed to an alcoholic death " " But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life -- or else. " " Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions. In this respect alcohol was a great persuader. It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness " A.A. is more than a set of principles; it is a society of alcoholics in action. We must carry the message, else we ourselves can wither and those who haven't been given the truth may die. .. SERVICE MANUAL, P. 6 Below is the actual text from BB --------------- Yes, we of agnostic temperament have had these thoughts and experiences. Let us make haste to reassure you. We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God. Here difficulty arises with agnostics. Many times we talk to a new man and watch his hope rise as we discuss his alcoholic problems and explain our fellowship. But his face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored. To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety. To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face. But it isn't so difficult. About half our original fellowship were of exactly that type. At first some of us tried to avoid the issue, hoping against hope we were not true alcoholics. But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life -- or else. Perhaps it is going to be that way with you. But cheer up, something like half of us thought we were atheists or agnostics. Our experience shows that you need not be disconcerted. ------------- we often found ourselves handicapped by obstinacy, sensitiveness, and unreasoning prejudice. Many of us have been so touchy that even casual reference to spiritual things make us bristle with antagonism. This sort of thinking had to be abandoned. Though some of us resisted, we found no great difficulty in casting aside such feelings. Faced with alcoholic destruction, we soon became as open minded on spiritual matters as we had tried to be on other questions. In this respect alcohol was a great persuader. It finally beat us into a state of reasonableness. Sometimes this was a tedious process; we hope no one else will prejudiced for as long as some of us were. ------------------ we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all. Rather vain of us, wasn't it? --- This world of ours has made more material progress in the last century than in all the millenniums which went before. Almost everyone knows the reason. Students of ancient history tell us that the intellect of men in those days was equal to the best of today. Yet in ancient times, material progress was painfully slow. The spirit of modern scientific inquiry, research and invention was almost unknown. In the realm of the material, men's minds were fettered by superstition, tradition, and all sort of fixed ideas. Some of the contemporaries of Columbus thought a round earth preposterous. Others came near putting Galileo to death for his astronomical heresies. We asked ourselves this: Are not some of us just as biased and unreasonable about the realm of the spirit as were the ancients about the realm of the material? -------------- When we saw others solve their problems by a simple reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we had to stop doubting the power of God. Our ideas did not work. But the God idea did. --------------- We agnostics and atheists were sticking to the idea that self- sufficiency would solve our problems. When others showed us that " God-sufficiency " worked with them, we began to feel like those who had insisted the s would never fly. --------- Logic is great stuff. We like it. We still like it. It is not by chance we were given the power to reason, to examine the evidence of our sense, and to draw conclusions. That is one of man's magnificent attributes. We agnostically inclined would not feel satisfied with a proposal which does not lend itself to reasonable approach and interpretation. Hence we are at pains to tell why we think our present faith is reasonable, why we think it more sane and logical to believe than not to believe, why we say our former thinking was soft and mushy when we threw up our hands in doubt and said, " We don't know. " -------- did we not have confidence in our ability to think? What was that but a sort of faith? Yes, we had been faithful, abjectly faithful to the God of Reason. So, in one way or another, we discovered that faith had been involved all the time! We found, too, that we had been worshippers. What a state of mental goose-flesh that used to bring on! Had we not variously worshipped people, sentiment, things, money, and ourselves? ----------------- We can only clear the ground a bit. If our testimony helps sweep away prejudice, enables you to think honestly, encourages you to search diligently within yourself, then, if you wish, you can join us on the Broad Highway. With this attitude you cannot fail. the consciousness of your belief is sure to come to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 AA members need to become familar with Intellectual honesty. they have been so mind fucked by double thinking, they are incapable of it when it comes to AA and How it works Intellectual pride is something you have yet to become acquainted > with. > > Piper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 AA members need to become familar with Intellectual honesty. they have been so mind fucked by double thinking, they are incapable of it when it comes to AA and How it works Intellectual pride is something you have yet to become acquainted > with. > > Piper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 AA members need to become familar with Intellectual honesty. they have been so mind fucked by double thinking, they are incapable of it when it comes to AA and How it works Intellectual pride is something you have yet to become acquainted > with. > > Piper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 as you can see, 12-step free, means 12-step free. this is not a free speach issue either, for they are free to say what they wish else where or start thier own egroup, or troll non aa newsgroups as they do daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 as you can see, 12-step free, means 12-step free. this is not a free speach issue either, for they are free to say what they wish else where or start thier own egroup, or troll non aa newsgroups as they do daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 as you can see, 12-step free, means 12-step free. this is not a free speach issue either, for they are free to say what they wish else where or start thier own egroup, or troll non aa newsgroups as they do daily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2001 Report Share Posted January 20, 2001 > as you can see, 12-step free, means 12-step free. > > this is not a free speach issue either, Exactly. There are public forums (i.e. newsgroups) where people can have all the free speech they want. This is a private listserve and that Jack P. creep (and others of his ilk) have absolutely no right to burst in and try to " spiritually awaken " us. He's probably been lurking for a while though. Someone else from the Delphi board lurked here a while back and then " outed " one of our members who had been using a screen name on Delphi, laying out his private issues as well as his real name, in a mocking manner. Very malicious. I'll check in to the Delphi board later and see what Jack is up to. ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2001 Report Share Posted January 20, 2001 > as you can see, 12-step free, means 12-step free. > > this is not a free speach issue either, Exactly. There are public forums (i.e. newsgroups) where people can have all the free speech they want. This is a private listserve and that Jack P. creep (and others of his ilk) have absolutely no right to burst in and try to " spiritually awaken " us. He's probably been lurking for a while though. Someone else from the Delphi board lurked here a while back and then " outed " one of our members who had been using a screen name on Delphi, laying out his private issues as well as his real name, in a mocking manner. Very malicious. I'll check in to the Delphi board later and see what Jack is up to. ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2001 Report Share Posted January 20, 2001 > as you can see, 12-step free, means 12-step free. > > this is not a free speach issue either, Exactly. There are public forums (i.e. newsgroups) where people can have all the free speech they want. This is a private listserve and that Jack P. creep (and others of his ilk) have absolutely no right to burst in and try to " spiritually awaken " us. He's probably been lurking for a while though. Someone else from the Delphi board lurked here a while back and then " outed " one of our members who had been using a screen name on Delphi, laying out his private issues as well as his real name, in a mocking manner. Very malicious. I'll check in to the Delphi board later and see what Jack is up to. ~Rita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2001 Report Share Posted January 20, 2001 > Nobody is JUST anything. Have I ever behaved like an idiot? Yes, > many times, mainly when I was drunk. But thanks to AA and God, I > hardly ever act like an idiot! Have you just had a drink Jack? Or maybe God is dead? By preaching AA on a 12-step-free list, you are behaving like a complete idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2001 Report Share Posted January 20, 2001 > Nobody is JUST anything. Have I ever behaved like an idiot? Yes, > many times, mainly when I was drunk. But thanks to AA and God, I > hardly ever act like an idiot! Have you just had a drink Jack? Or maybe God is dead? By preaching AA on a 12-step-free list, you are behaving like a complete idiot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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