Re: Sparkydawg (was Suffolk Co. Incident)

[Guest guest]

At 12:58 PM 1/8/01 -0000, Judith Stillwater wrote:

>To me, AA represents the opposite of listening to the little voice

>inside me. " That little voice " represents my true self, my authentic

>feelings. AA represents Big Brother, telling me not to pay attention

>to politics or social issues, telling me to forsake everything in the

>interest of abstaining from alcohol.

>

>From the start, I rebelled against the idea of AA. But I made the

>choice to follow through. Now I'm 41 and wondering what the hell

>happened back then in 1984. (The Big brother analogy is so appropriate

>given the year I started treatment And I think it's part of the

>adapting that started happening as soon as I started to perceive

>and have control over my environment, when I was a tiny little kid.

>

>It reminds me of a Star Trek Next Generation episode, where Capt.

>Picard is being tortured. His captor holds up 3 fingers and asks, " how

>many fingers am I holding up? " Picard says 3 and the captor says, " no,

>4 " and tortures him some more. We, the audience, will know when Picard

>is defeated because he will finally give in and pretend to see 4

>fingers where there are only 3.

I don't remember seeing that episode (I enjoyed the show and tried to

keep up, but my TV watching went down in 1988 with my nightly meeting

attendance), but the scene is immediately recognizable. It happened to

Winston in the novel " 1984 " . As I remember, what happened to Winston

was a little more subtle and went deeper than what you described happening

to Picard.

Star Trek has many subtle references I recognized. In one scene it's

asked " What's the ETA to our destination? " The response: " Four minutes

and Thirty Three seconds. " This was shortly after the death of avant-garde

composer Cage, whose most famous work, entitled " 4:33 " , consists

of a pianists sitting quietly at a piano, playing no notes, for 4 minutes

and 33 seconds. I wonder how many such references there were I didn't

recognize.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 12:58 PM 1/8/01 -0000, Judith Stillwater wrote:

>To me, AA represents the opposite of listening to the little voice

>inside me. " That little voice " represents my true self, my authentic

>feelings. AA represents Big Brother, telling me not to pay attention

>to politics or social issues, telling me to forsake everything in the

>interest of abstaining from alcohol.

>

>From the start, I rebelled against the idea of AA. But I made the

>choice to follow through. Now I'm 41 and wondering what the hell

>happened back then in 1984. (The Big brother analogy is so appropriate

>given the year I started treatment And I think it's part of the

>adapting that started happening as soon as I started to perceive

>and have control over my environment, when I was a tiny little kid.

>

>It reminds me of a Star Trek Next Generation episode, where Capt.

>Picard is being tortured. His captor holds up 3 fingers and asks, " how

>many fingers am I holding up? " Picard says 3 and the captor says, " no,

>4 " and tortures him some more. We, the audience, will know when Picard

>is defeated because he will finally give in and pretend to see 4

>fingers where there are only 3.

I don't remember seeing that episode (I enjoyed the show and tried to

keep up, but my TV watching went down in 1988 with my nightly meeting

attendance), but the scene is immediately recognizable. It happened to

Winston in the novel " 1984 " . As I remember, what happened to Winston

was a little more subtle and went deeper than what you described happening

to Picard.

Star Trek has many subtle references I recognized. In one scene it's

asked " What's the ETA to our destination? " The response: " Four minutes

and Thirty Three seconds. " This was shortly after the death of avant-garde

composer Cage, whose most famous work, entitled " 4:33 " , consists

of a pianists sitting quietly at a piano, playing no notes, for 4 minutes

and 33 seconds. I wonder how many such references there were I didn't

recognize.

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

When I was in treatment, and I've related this before, during a group

a counsellor looked at the (white) wall and said, " If I say that wall

is white, and 5 other people say it's black, then I'm in a lot of

trouble if I continue to insist it's white. " This freaked me out more

than anything else I heard in treatment, and once I understood the

ramifications I understood what a mindfuck it was.

Of course, what happens in treatment isn't quite as bad as what

Winston underwent, since you can eventually get out. But its

effects can be very pervasive.

>

> >To me, AA represents the opposite of listening to the little voice

> >inside me. " That little voice " represents my true self, my

authentic

> >feelings. AA represents Big Brother, telling me not to pay

attention

> >to politics or social issues, telling me to forsake everything in

the

> >interest of abstaining from alcohol.

> >

> >From the start, I rebelled against the idea of AA. But I made the

> >choice to follow through. Now I'm 41 and wondering what the hell

> >happened back then in 1984. (The Big brother analogy is so

appropriate

> >given the year I started treatment And I think it's part of the

> >adapting that started happening as soon as I started to perceive

> >and have control over my environment, when I was a tiny little kid.

> >

> >It reminds me of a Star Trek Next Generation episode, where Capt.

> >Picard is being tortured. His captor holds up 3 fingers and asks,

" how

> >many fingers am I holding up? " Picard says 3 and the captor says,

" no,

> >4 " and tortures him some more. We, the audience, will know when

Picard

> >is defeated because he will finally give in and pretend to see 4

> >fingers where there are only 3.

>

> I don't remember seeing that episode (I enjoyed the show and

tried to

> keep up, but my TV watching went down in 1988 with my nightly

meeting

> attendance), but the scene is immediately recognizable. It happened

to

> Winston in the novel " 1984 " . As I remember, what happened to

Winston

> was a little more subtle and went deeper than what you described

happening

> to Picard.

> Star Trek has many subtle references I recognized. In one scene

it's

> asked " What's the ETA to our destination? " The response: " Four

minutes

> and Thirty Three seconds. " This was shortly after the death of

avant-garde

> composer Cage, whose most famous work, entitled " 4:33 " ,

consists

> of a pianists sitting quietly at a piano, playing no notes, for 4

minutes

> and 33 seconds. I wonder how many such references there were I

didn't

> recognize.

> -----

> http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

It reminds me of a Star Trek Next Generation episode, where Capt. >Picard is being tortured. His captor holds up 3 fingers and asks, "how >many fingers am I holding up?" Picard says 3 and the captor says, "no, >4" and tortures him some more. We, the audience, will know when Picard >is defeated because he will finally give in and pretend to see 4 >fingers where there are only 3.

Ben-

Your example may be even more relevent than you know, for at the end of the episode you're talking about, safe at the Enterprise, PIccard admits that he really did see 4 fingers.

Nate

[Guest guest]

It reminds me of a Star Trek Next Generation episode, where Capt. >Picard is being tortured. His captor holds up 3 fingers and asks, "how >many fingers am I holding up?" Picard says 3 and the captor says, "no, >4" and tortures him some more. We, the audience, will know when Picard >is defeated because he will finally give in and pretend to see 4 >fingers where there are only 3.

Ben-

Your example may be even more relevent than you know, for at the end of the episode you're talking about, safe at the Enterprise, PIccard admits that he really did see 4 fingers.

Nate

[Guest guest]

>

> It reminds me of a Star Trek Next Generation episode, where Capt.

> Picard is being tortured. His captor holds up 3 fingers and asks, " how

> many fingers am I holding up? " Picard says 3 and the captor says, " no,

> 4 " and tortures him some more. We, the audience, will know when Picard

> is defeated because he will finally give in and pretend to see 4

> fingers where there are only 3.

What a rip off! This is total plagiarism of the torture scene in Orwell's 1984,

except there its 4 and 5 not 3 and 4.

Well, I guess its the American thing to subtract a finger....where we use two

fingers, Americans use one!

P.

[Guest guest]

> Your example may be even more relevent than you know, for at the end of the

episode you're talking about, safe at the Enterprise, PIccard admits that he

really did see 4 fingers.

In the original 1984 scene, Winston pretends to see 5 and and is tortured

some more lying - his tormentor insists he actually sees 5 rather than pretends.

says he doesnt know, and his torturer says " Good Thats a start " .

I think the inspiration for this episode was an old Stalinist poster which

showed some foundry belching smoke and had the legend " 2+2=5! " on it.

IT seems like too much of a coincidence.

P.

[Guest guest]

> Your example may be even more relevent than you know, for at the end of the

episode you're talking about, safe at the Enterprise, PIccard admits that he

really did see 4 fingers.

In the original 1984 scene, Winston pretends to see 5 and and is tortured

some more lying - his tormentor insists he actually sees 5 rather than pretends.

says he doesnt know, and his torturer says " Good Thats a start " .

I think the inspiration for this episode was an old Stalinist poster which

showed some foundry belching smoke and had the legend " 2+2=5! " on it.

IT seems like too much of a coincidence.

P.

[Guest guest]

At 05:58 PM 1/8/01 +0000, you wrote:

>What a rip off! This is total plagiarism of the torture scene in Orwell's

>1984, except there its 4 and 5 not 3 and 4.

Probably more of a tribute than a rip-off. Star Trek likes to refer

to other things. Data's " positronic brain, " for instance, is a

nod to Isaac Asimov.

[Guest guest]

At 05:58 PM 1/8/01 +0000, you wrote:

>What a rip off! This is total plagiarism of the torture scene in Orwell's

>1984, except there its 4 and 5 not 3 and 4.

Probably more of a tribute than a rip-off. Star Trek likes to refer

to other things. Data's " positronic brain, " for instance, is a

nod to Isaac Asimov.