Re: Digest Number 572

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/12/01 6:51:22 PM Central Standard Time, 12-step-freeegroups writes:

, there is some evidence that viewpoints like political conservatism and religiousness have a degree of heritability.

Please cite your sources for such a statement.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/12/01 6:51:22 PM Central Standard Time, 12-step-freeegroups writes:

, there is some evidence that viewpoints like political conservatism and religiousness have a degree of heritability.

Please cite your sources for such a statement.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/12/01 6:51:22 PM Central Standard Time, 12-step-freeegroups writes:

, there is some evidence that viewpoints like political conservatism and religiousness have a degree of heritability.

Please cite your sources for such a statement.

[Guest guest]

>To: 12-step-freeegroups

>From: edgarc@...

>Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2001 08:21:00 EST

>Reply-To: 12-step-freeegroups

>Subject: Re: Digest Number 572

>

>In a message dated 1/12/01 6:51:22 PM Central Standard Time,

>12-step-freeegroups writes:

>

>

>> , there is some evidence that viewpoints

>> like political conservatism and religiousness have a degree of heritibility

>>

>

>Please cite your sources for such a statement.

>

----------------

Thanks Edgar, you beat me to it. I cannot imagine how such a determination

could be made with any validity.

~Rita

------------------------------------------------------------

--== Sent via Deja.com ==--

http://www.deja.com/

[Guest guest]

the only thing i know that is even similar is of identical twins

separated at birth. one instance comes to mind of two male

twins, when the researchers looked them up, they were in their

30's. what was striking was even though they were raised in

different states, by different parents, they both ahd they same

handle bar mustaches, they were both firemen, " both did

woodworking in their spare time and had built identical benches

around trees in their back yards " you can find more info on them

on web. found this as well, which on a brief scan looked relevant.

http://www.seanet.com/~realistic/chpt13.html

now assuming their is reason to believe that these traits of their

personality were actually inherited, i dont see why a political

leaning couldn't be an extension of ones personality. now im

sure for every case you find were there is evidence of this, there

may be 10000 cases where these is no way to demonstrate this

correlation reliably, or at all. but at same time, it doesn't mean it

doesn't exist either.

personally, i think it possible, and interesting (is our destiny

predetermined by our genes?), but in the end its irrelevant,

because we still have to live our lives as best we can, and

whether our traits came from nature or nurture is moot after we

have acquired them..

but on other hand it's thought provoking , is our political battle in

this country or in world for that matter, really just the battle of

evolutionary superiority between different genetic instructions?

[Guest guest]

the only thing i know that is even similar is of identical twins

separated at birth. one instance comes to mind of two male

twins, when the researchers looked them up, they were in their

30's. what was striking was even though they were raised in

different states, by different parents, they both ahd they same

handle bar mustaches, they were both firemen, " both did

woodworking in their spare time and had built identical benches

around trees in their back yards " you can find more info on them

on web. found this as well, which on a brief scan looked relevant.

http://www.seanet.com/~realistic/chpt13.html

now assuming their is reason to believe that these traits of their

personality were actually inherited, i dont see why a political

leaning couldn't be an extension of ones personality. now im

sure for every case you find were there is evidence of this, there

may be 10000 cases where these is no way to demonstrate this

correlation reliably, or at all. but at same time, it doesn't mean it

doesn't exist either.

personally, i think it possible, and interesting (is our destiny

predetermined by our genes?), but in the end its irrelevant,

because we still have to live our lives as best we can, and

whether our traits came from nature or nurture is moot after we

have acquired them..

but on other hand it's thought provoking , is our political battle in

this country or in world for that matter, really just the battle of

evolutionary superiority between different genetic instructions?

[Guest guest]

the only thing i know that is even similar is of identical twins

separated at birth. one instance comes to mind of two male

twins, when the researchers looked them up, they were in their

30's. what was striking was even though they were raised in

different states, by different parents, they both ahd they same

handle bar mustaches, they were both firemen, " both did

woodworking in their spare time and had built identical benches

around trees in their back yards " you can find more info on them

on web. found this as well, which on a brief scan looked relevant.

http://www.seanet.com/~realistic/chpt13.html

now assuming their is reason to believe that these traits of their

personality were actually inherited, i dont see why a political

leaning couldn't be an extension of ones personality. now im

sure for every case you find were there is evidence of this, there

may be 10000 cases where these is no way to demonstrate this

correlation reliably, or at all. but at same time, it doesn't mean it

doesn't exist either.

personally, i think it possible, and interesting (is our destiny

predetermined by our genes?), but in the end its irrelevant,

because we still have to live our lives as best we can, and

whether our traits came from nature or nurture is moot after we

have acquired them..

but on other hand it's thought provoking , is our political battle in

this country or in world for that matter, really just the battle of

evolutionary superiority between different genetic instructions?

[Guest guest]

from the link i just posted , down at bottom of page

" Identical twins have identical genes. Because of this, some

three thousand identical twins that were separated at birth and

raised in different adoptive homes, without knowledge of each

other's existence, were located and closely examined.

Similarities in the lives of these twins would tend to be

interpreted as genetic, while differences would tend to be

interpreted as acquired from their separate environments.

This series is being studied in Minneapolis, Minnesota by

Bouchard, Jr. with a group of seventeen other

professionals. Each pair of twins was studied intensively for six

days with fifteen thousand written questions and many biological

laboratory studies. These factors are so extensive as to be

unbelievable at first glance. It takes study and insight to clarify

the forces at work.

One example worth noting concerns two twins who were both

Captains of Fire Departments in separate towns, one in

Paramus, New Jersey and the other in Brooklyn, New York. On

meeting for the first time after thirty one years apart, they found

they had many similarities. They both were bachelors, incurable

flirts, and both preferring tall slim women with long hair. They

were raucously good humored, drank only Budweiser Beer,

holding the can with their little finger curled under the can, and

crushing the can when they were finished. On a night on the

town they both preferred to end with a Chinese dinner in the wee

hours of the morning. Their pastimes were hunting, fishing,

going to old Wayne movies, and watching pro wrestling.

Both had key rings on their right belt. There were many other

similarities. They were both six foot six inches, and weighed over

two hundred fifty pounds, though one was notably more than the

other in weight.

In another case both twins preferred Lite Beer, both had

been married twice. Both first wives had been named and

second wives were named " Betty " . Both had sons named

" " . Both had had dogs named " Toy " . Both had wood

working hobbies. Both took vacations in the same three blocks

along a beach in Florida.

An outstanding feature of this pair and nearly all the other pairs

was their propensity to answer questions simultaneously, finish

each other's sentences, and think simultaneous thoughts.

One must look behind what one sees on the surface. Genetics

are obviously pervasive, but one does not inherit the tendency to

wear firemen's uniforms. One has to be in a fire department.

What is heritable is a similar strong tendency toward altruism

and risk-taking. As one looks around the society, the only

situation that fits those motives to a tee are in a fire department.

Not even a rescue squad or police squad would suit as well. The

fact that both were strong and above average in intelligence

accounts for the fact that they both became captains.

Another point is that the two must also have similar

opportunities. If one of the firemen had been raised in Europe,

he probably would not have preferred Budweiser Beer. If one had

been raised in the wilderness of Brazil, he would not have had

the opportunity to join a volunteer fire department. An

environment that provided poor nutrition to one of them probably

would have made a difference in their stature.

Heritable traits When these fire captains were tested for

personality variables such as:

tolerance,

conformity,

flexibility,

self-control,

and sociability,

they tested as similar as the same person tested twice. In other

twins:

migraine headaches,

glaucoma,

hypertension,

need for glasses,

and general health

seems to be genetically related.

Homosexuality and genes

In identical twins raised in the same family, where one was

homosexual, 100% of their twins were also homosexual. Among

the identical twins raised in separate families, the results were

not as consitent. The results were mixed and did not all support

the genetic hypothesis. In contrast to the men, none of the three

females who said they were lesbians, and a fourth who said she

was bisexual, had an identical twin with a matching sexual

orientation. Though far from conclusive, it is suggestive that this

type of sexual orientation is environmental. In several families

without twins, but with adopted males, all were homosexuals,

also suggesting an environmental factor. This will be covered in

further detail under " Family Tradition " .

I.Q. and heritablity

All the twins studied had almost identical I.Q.s. In all cases the

average I.Q. variation was only four points. Psychologists and

neurologists have found that our capabilities are each fostered

and contain-ed in specific areas of the brain. By looking at the

results of performance tests, psychologists can identify the

actual location of an injury to the brain. Brain injuries result in the

loss of specific abilities and show depressed performance

scores on specific tests. Recent technology, such as C.A.T.

scans and M.R.I. have made this technique obsolete, but the

point remains. The presence, or absence, or degree of

development of specific areas of the brain are dependent on

genetic evolution. This is " biological determinism " . People who

are blessed with strong abilities in some areas have brains

which enable these strong abilities, or talents, to develop. Talent

is nature's way of being unfair.

Grief: the Loss Reaction

The " loss reaction " is another behavior, closely related to

moods, which is so pervasive among humans and also in

primate animal behavior, that it is undoubtedly heritable. Many

aspects about the loss reaction are cultural. However, the

characteristics of denial, often times anger, and especially

emotional expression follow what we know about the human

brain and the activities of a socially oriented mammal.

One of the primary functions of the brain is to inhibit extraneous

stimuli so we can focus on the task at hand. Denial of a loss is

what is necessary to allow us to accept the loss a bit at a time

and to keep us from suffering undue stress. Acceptance of a

loss is the gradual repeal of denial as readjustment and

emotional reinvestment in a new object, or objects, is achieved.

Anger is an unconscious response to the frustrations of a loss.

Emotional expression during the loss reaction is a mechanism

to arouse sympathy and assistance from those around us.

Except in the most adverse conditions, any normal person is

affected by a weeping child, woman or man and might offer

assistance. Another affirmation of the heritability of grief or the

loss reaction is that it's impact is sometimes a surprise to an

individual.

Social bonding

Human social bonding is unique among humans but is

suggested in the animal world in other ways. Dogs are pack

animals. The pack is their social bonding. It is their way of

working together. They only live and work in packs. Their brains

are incapable of anything else. Dog experts will tell you how this

enables them to live with humans. There are also herd animals.

Their brains are different from dog brains and are incapable of

anything else. If a human's brain is normal and healthy, they are

obligated to be social. We are " obligatory social organisms " .

Later in this book we will see how our obligatory social nature

affects our behavior, our children's well being, and society as a

whole.

It is also evident that there is no evolutionary plan that Nature is

following. There is no cause in the future that can effect the

present. All is determined by heritable abilities and traits.

Anything that is not heritable is of no evolutionary significance.

So far, no specific studies have been done on the heritability of

" superstition " though there has been noted a similarity of

eccentricities, anxieties, politics, and religions. In one pair of

identical twins both were terrified of water, and to go swimming,

both had to back into the water. "

[Guest guest]

from the link i just posted , down at bottom of page

" Identical twins have identical genes. Because of this, some

three thousand identical twins that were separated at birth and

raised in different adoptive homes, without knowledge of each

other's existence, were located and closely examined.

Similarities in the lives of these twins would tend to be

interpreted as genetic, while differences would tend to be

interpreted as acquired from their separate environments.

This series is being studied in Minneapolis, Minnesota by

Bouchard, Jr. with a group of seventeen other

professionals. Each pair of twins was studied intensively for six

days with fifteen thousand written questions and many biological

laboratory studies. These factors are so extensive as to be

unbelievable at first glance. It takes study and insight to clarify

the forces at work.

One example worth noting concerns two twins who were both

Captains of Fire Departments in separate towns, one in

Paramus, New Jersey and the other in Brooklyn, New York. On

meeting for the first time after thirty one years apart, they found

they had many similarities. They both were bachelors, incurable

flirts, and both preferring tall slim women with long hair. They

were raucously good humored, drank only Budweiser Beer,

holding the can with their little finger curled under the can, and

crushing the can when they were finished. On a night on the

town they both preferred to end with a Chinese dinner in the wee

hours of the morning. Their pastimes were hunting, fishing,

going to old Wayne movies, and watching pro wrestling.

Both had key rings on their right belt. There were many other

similarities. They were both six foot six inches, and weighed over

two hundred fifty pounds, though one was notably more than the

other in weight.

In another case both twins preferred Lite Beer, both had

been married twice. Both first wives had been named and

second wives were named " Betty " . Both had sons named

" " . Both had had dogs named " Toy " . Both had wood

working hobbies. Both took vacations in the same three blocks

along a beach in Florida.

An outstanding feature of this pair and nearly all the other pairs

was their propensity to answer questions simultaneously, finish

each other's sentences, and think simultaneous thoughts.

One must look behind what one sees on the surface. Genetics

are obviously pervasive, but one does not inherit the tendency to

wear firemen's uniforms. One has to be in a fire department.

What is heritable is a similar strong tendency toward altruism

and risk-taking. As one looks around the society, the only

situation that fits those motives to a tee are in a fire department.

Not even a rescue squad or police squad would suit as well. The

fact that both were strong and above average in intelligence

accounts for the fact that they both became captains.

Another point is that the two must also have similar

opportunities. If one of the firemen had been raised in Europe,

he probably would not have preferred Budweiser Beer. If one had

been raised in the wilderness of Brazil, he would not have had

the opportunity to join a volunteer fire department. An

environment that provided poor nutrition to one of them probably

would have made a difference in their stature.

Heritable traits When these fire captains were tested for

personality variables such as:

tolerance,

conformity,

flexibility,

self-control,

and sociability,

they tested as similar as the same person tested twice. In other

twins:

migraine headaches,

glaucoma,

hypertension,

need for glasses,

and general health

seems to be genetically related.

Homosexuality and genes

In identical twins raised in the same family, where one was

homosexual, 100% of their twins were also homosexual. Among

the identical twins raised in separate families, the results were

not as consitent. The results were mixed and did not all support

the genetic hypothesis. In contrast to the men, none of the three

females who said they were lesbians, and a fourth who said she

was bisexual, had an identical twin with a matching sexual

orientation. Though far from conclusive, it is suggestive that this

type of sexual orientation is environmental. In several families

without twins, but with adopted males, all were homosexuals,

also suggesting an environmental factor. This will be covered in

further detail under " Family Tradition " .

I.Q. and heritablity

All the twins studied had almost identical I.Q.s. In all cases the

average I.Q. variation was only four points. Psychologists and

neurologists have found that our capabilities are each fostered

and contain-ed in specific areas of the brain. By looking at the

results of performance tests, psychologists can identify the

actual location of an injury to the brain. Brain injuries result in the

loss of specific abilities and show depressed performance

scores on specific tests. Recent technology, such as C.A.T.

scans and M.R.I. have made this technique obsolete, but the

point remains. The presence, or absence, or degree of

development of specific areas of the brain are dependent on

genetic evolution. This is " biological determinism " . People who

are blessed with strong abilities in some areas have brains

which enable these strong abilities, or talents, to develop. Talent

is nature's way of being unfair.

Grief: the Loss Reaction

The " loss reaction " is another behavior, closely related to

moods, which is so pervasive among humans and also in

primate animal behavior, that it is undoubtedly heritable. Many

aspects about the loss reaction are cultural. However, the

characteristics of denial, often times anger, and especially

emotional expression follow what we know about the human

brain and the activities of a socially oriented mammal.

One of the primary functions of the brain is to inhibit extraneous

stimuli so we can focus on the task at hand. Denial of a loss is

what is necessary to allow us to accept the loss a bit at a time

and to keep us from suffering undue stress. Acceptance of a

loss is the gradual repeal of denial as readjustment and

emotional reinvestment in a new object, or objects, is achieved.

Anger is an unconscious response to the frustrations of a loss.

Emotional expression during the loss reaction is a mechanism

to arouse sympathy and assistance from those around us.

Except in the most adverse conditions, any normal person is

affected by a weeping child, woman or man and might offer

assistance. Another affirmation of the heritability of grief or the

loss reaction is that it's impact is sometimes a surprise to an

individual.

Social bonding

Human social bonding is unique among humans but is

suggested in the animal world in other ways. Dogs are pack

animals. The pack is their social bonding. It is their way of

working together. They only live and work in packs. Their brains

are incapable of anything else. Dog experts will tell you how this

enables them to live with humans. There are also herd animals.

Their brains are different from dog brains and are incapable of

anything else. If a human's brain is normal and healthy, they are

obligated to be social. We are " obligatory social organisms " .

Later in this book we will see how our obligatory social nature

affects our behavior, our children's well being, and society as a

whole.

It is also evident that there is no evolutionary plan that Nature is

following. There is no cause in the future that can effect the

present. All is determined by heritable abilities and traits.

Anything that is not heritable is of no evolutionary significance.

So far, no specific studies have been done on the heritability of

" superstition " though there has been noted a similarity of

eccentricities, anxieties, politics, and religions. In one pair of

identical twins both were terrified of water, and to go swimming,

both had to back into the water. "

[Guest guest]

from the link i just posted , down at bottom of page

" Identical twins have identical genes. Because of this, some

three thousand identical twins that were separated at birth and

raised in different adoptive homes, without knowledge of each

other's existence, were located and closely examined.

Similarities in the lives of these twins would tend to be

interpreted as genetic, while differences would tend to be

interpreted as acquired from their separate environments.

This series is being studied in Minneapolis, Minnesota by

Bouchard, Jr. with a group of seventeen other

professionals. Each pair of twins was studied intensively for six

days with fifteen thousand written questions and many biological

laboratory studies. These factors are so extensive as to be

unbelievable at first glance. It takes study and insight to clarify

the forces at work.

One example worth noting concerns two twins who were both

Captains of Fire Departments in separate towns, one in

Paramus, New Jersey and the other in Brooklyn, New York. On

meeting for the first time after thirty one years apart, they found

they had many similarities. They both were bachelors, incurable

flirts, and both preferring tall slim women with long hair. They

were raucously good humored, drank only Budweiser Beer,

holding the can with their little finger curled under the can, and

crushing the can when they were finished. On a night on the

town they both preferred to end with a Chinese dinner in the wee

hours of the morning. Their pastimes were hunting, fishing,

going to old Wayne movies, and watching pro wrestling.

Both had key rings on their right belt. There were many other

similarities. They were both six foot six inches, and weighed over

two hundred fifty pounds, though one was notably more than the

other in weight.

In another case both twins preferred Lite Beer, both had

been married twice. Both first wives had been named and

second wives were named " Betty " . Both had sons named

" " . Both had had dogs named " Toy " . Both had wood

working hobbies. Both took vacations in the same three blocks

along a beach in Florida.

An outstanding feature of this pair and nearly all the other pairs

was their propensity to answer questions simultaneously, finish

each other's sentences, and think simultaneous thoughts.

One must look behind what one sees on the surface. Genetics

are obviously pervasive, but one does not inherit the tendency to

wear firemen's uniforms. One has to be in a fire department.

What is heritable is a similar strong tendency toward altruism

and risk-taking. As one looks around the society, the only

situation that fits those motives to a tee are in a fire department.

Not even a rescue squad or police squad would suit as well. The

fact that both were strong and above average in intelligence

accounts for the fact that they both became captains.

Another point is that the two must also have similar

opportunities. If one of the firemen had been raised in Europe,

he probably would not have preferred Budweiser Beer. If one had

been raised in the wilderness of Brazil, he would not have had

the opportunity to join a volunteer fire department. An

environment that provided poor nutrition to one of them probably

would have made a difference in their stature.

Heritable traits When these fire captains were tested for

personality variables such as:

tolerance,

conformity,

flexibility,

self-control,

and sociability,

they tested as similar as the same person tested twice. In other

twins:

migraine headaches,

glaucoma,

hypertension,

need for glasses,

and general health

seems to be genetically related.

Homosexuality and genes

In identical twins raised in the same family, where one was

homosexual, 100% of their twins were also homosexual. Among

the identical twins raised in separate families, the results were

not as consitent. The results were mixed and did not all support

the genetic hypothesis. In contrast to the men, none of the three

females who said they were lesbians, and a fourth who said she

was bisexual, had an identical twin with a matching sexual

orientation. Though far from conclusive, it is suggestive that this

type of sexual orientation is environmental. In several families

without twins, but with adopted males, all were homosexuals,

also suggesting an environmental factor. This will be covered in

further detail under " Family Tradition " .

I.Q. and heritablity

All the twins studied had almost identical I.Q.s. In all cases the

average I.Q. variation was only four points. Psychologists and

neurologists have found that our capabilities are each fostered

and contain-ed in specific areas of the brain. By looking at the

results of performance tests, psychologists can identify the

actual location of an injury to the brain. Brain injuries result in the

loss of specific abilities and show depressed performance

scores on specific tests. Recent technology, such as C.A.T.

scans and M.R.I. have made this technique obsolete, but the

point remains. The presence, or absence, or degree of

development of specific areas of the brain are dependent on

genetic evolution. This is " biological determinism " . People who

are blessed with strong abilities in some areas have brains

which enable these strong abilities, or talents, to develop. Talent

is nature's way of being unfair.

Grief: the Loss Reaction

The " loss reaction " is another behavior, closely related to

moods, which is so pervasive among humans and also in

primate animal behavior, that it is undoubtedly heritable. Many

aspects about the loss reaction are cultural. However, the

characteristics of denial, often times anger, and especially

emotional expression follow what we know about the human

brain and the activities of a socially oriented mammal.

One of the primary functions of the brain is to inhibit extraneous

stimuli so we can focus on the task at hand. Denial of a loss is

what is necessary to allow us to accept the loss a bit at a time

and to keep us from suffering undue stress. Acceptance of a

loss is the gradual repeal of denial as readjustment and

emotional reinvestment in a new object, or objects, is achieved.

Anger is an unconscious response to the frustrations of a loss.

Emotional expression during the loss reaction is a mechanism

to arouse sympathy and assistance from those around us.

Except in the most adverse conditions, any normal person is

affected by a weeping child, woman or man and might offer

assistance. Another affirmation of the heritability of grief or the

loss reaction is that it's impact is sometimes a surprise to an

individual.

Social bonding

Human social bonding is unique among humans but is

suggested in the animal world in other ways. Dogs are pack

animals. The pack is their social bonding. It is their way of

working together. They only live and work in packs. Their brains

are incapable of anything else. Dog experts will tell you how this

enables them to live with humans. There are also herd animals.

Their brains are different from dog brains and are incapable of

anything else. If a human's brain is normal and healthy, they are

obligated to be social. We are " obligatory social organisms " .

Later in this book we will see how our obligatory social nature

affects our behavior, our children's well being, and society as a

whole.

It is also evident that there is no evolutionary plan that Nature is

following. There is no cause in the future that can effect the

present. All is determined by heritable abilities and traits.

Anything that is not heritable is of no evolutionary significance.

So far, no specific studies have been done on the heritability of

" superstition " though there has been noted a similarity of

eccentricities, anxieties, politics, and religions. In one pair of

identical twins both were terrified of water, and to go swimming,

both had to back into the water. "

[Guest guest]

Numerous studies and polls have shown that intelligence is negatively

related to religiosity. (There is a review of the evidence in the Spring

1986 issue of Free Inquiry.) So one could argue that IQ is somewhat

inheritable, and IQ is crudely associated with intelligence, which, in turn,

is (inversely) correlated with religiosity.

It wouldn't be totally surprising to find religious traits being directly

inheritable aside from the intelligence connection. For example, there might

be structural characteristics of the brain which predispose people to such

tendencies as hypnotic suggestibility and 'mystical' experiences. I don't

know of any scientific evidence that this is so, though.

I'm kind of dubious about the 'policical conservatism' thing. One problem is

that beliefs considered 'conservative' flip-flop from time to time. E. g. a

Jeffersonian 'liberal' shares many beliefs with a Reagan 'conservative.'

Any citations of evidence on these topics would be welcom to me too.

--wally

Re: Digest Number 572

> >

> >In a message dated 1/12/01 6:51:22 PM Central Standard Time,

> >12-step-freeegroups writes:

> >

> >

> >> , there is some evidence that viewpoints

> >> like political conservatism and religiousness have a degree of

heritibility >>

> >

> >Please cite your sources for such a statement.

> >

> ----------------

>

> Thanks Edgar, you beat me to it. I cannot imagine how such a

determination could be made with any validity.

>

> ~Rita

>

[Guest guest]

Numerous studies and polls have shown that intelligence is negatively

related to religiosity. (There is a review of the evidence in the Spring

1986 issue of Free Inquiry.) So one could argue that IQ is somewhat

inheritable, and IQ is crudely associated with intelligence, which, in turn,

is (inversely) correlated with religiosity.

It wouldn't be totally surprising to find religious traits being directly

inheritable aside from the intelligence connection. For example, there might

be structural characteristics of the brain which predispose people to such

tendencies as hypnotic suggestibility and 'mystical' experiences. I don't

know of any scientific evidence that this is so, though.

I'm kind of dubious about the 'policical conservatism' thing. One problem is

that beliefs considered 'conservative' flip-flop from time to time. E. g. a

Jeffersonian 'liberal' shares many beliefs with a Reagan 'conservative.'

Any citations of evidence on these topics would be welcom to me too.

--wally

Re: Digest Number 572

> >

> >In a message dated 1/12/01 6:51:22 PM Central Standard Time,

> >12-step-freeegroups writes:

> >

> >

> >> , there is some evidence that viewpoints

> >> like political conservatism and religiousness have a degree of

heritibility >>

> >

> >Please cite your sources for such a statement.

> >

> ----------------

>

> Thanks Edgar, you beat me to it. I cannot imagine how such a

determination could be made with any validity.

>

> ~Rita

>

[Guest guest]

Numerous studies and polls have shown that intelligence is negatively

related to religiosity. (There is a review of the evidence in the Spring

1986 issue of Free Inquiry.) So one could argue that IQ is somewhat

inheritable, and IQ is crudely associated with intelligence, which, in turn,

is (inversely) correlated with religiosity.

It wouldn't be totally surprising to find religious traits being directly

inheritable aside from the intelligence connection. For example, there might

be structural characteristics of the brain which predispose people to such

tendencies as hypnotic suggestibility and 'mystical' experiences. I don't

know of any scientific evidence that this is so, though.

I'm kind of dubious about the 'policical conservatism' thing. One problem is

that beliefs considered 'conservative' flip-flop from time to time. E. g. a

Jeffersonian 'liberal' shares many beliefs with a Reagan 'conservative.'

Any citations of evidence on these topics would be welcom to me too.

--wally

Re: Digest Number 572

> >

> >In a message dated 1/12/01 6:51:22 PM Central Standard Time,

> >12-step-freeegroups writes:

> >

> >

> >> , there is some evidence that viewpoints

> >> like political conservatism and religiousness have a degree of

heritibility >>

> >

> >Please cite your sources for such a statement.

> >

> ----------------

>

> Thanks Edgar, you beat me to it. I cannot imagine how such a

determination could be made with any validity.

>

> ~Rita

>

[Guest guest]

At 02:32 PM 1/13/01 -0500, wally wrote:

>Numerous studies and polls have shown that intelligence is negatively

>related to religiosity. (There is a review of the evidence in the Spring

>1986 issue of Free Inquiry.) So one could argue that IQ is somewhat

> ...

>Any citations of evidence on these topics would be welcom to me too.

>

>--wally

There's a book that was pivotal for me to dismiss everything I was

hearing in AA. The book is not about religion as most people think of it,

but it is about belief, especially 'faith-based' belief.

The title is " The Adventures of a Parapsychologist " by Blackmore,

and her book is about her college experience, of writing a Master's thesis

on the topic. She was searching very diligently and thoroughly for hard

evidence of any kind of parapsychology, but er experiments repeatedly failed

to get positive results. Her colleagues did get results, at least until she

started looking critically at their experiments, in which she found various

problems that could make for false positives. From doing this she got a

reputation as 'psi inhibitory', someone who would cause psi to go away

when she was around.

Toward the end of the book she DID do something that got positive

results: It was a test and questionaire she did of lay people: The

questionaire was about whether the testee believed various psychic

abilities or things were real, and the test was about statistics.

Can you guess it yet? There was a very strong correlation between

knowledge of statistics and NOT believing that parapsychology exists.

I was about three or four years sober when I read the book. I had

bought into everything about AA for my first two years, including

believing in a spiritual god, after having been an atheist up until

entering AA. After two years I started to question a lot of things in

AA, not neccesarily to others in AA (that always resulted in dismissal

of any non-AA-compoliant ideas). I started reading lots of 'outside

literature', and I 'kept an open mind' about things that disagreed with

AA ideas. My belief in god grew from what was described in the first 164

pages of the big book and 12 & 12 to include what other 12-step programs

and some new-age stuff said, but then it began to dissipate like a cloud

turning to water vapor. After reading " The Adventures of a

Parapsychologist " I finally felt totally confident that I could be an

atheist, not take the steps, nor do anything AA says one should do, and

not just 'stay sober', but live a freer life without being tied to AA's

beliefs.

I recommend this book to all 325 members of this list. :-)

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 02:32 PM 1/13/01 -0500, wally wrote:

>Numerous studies and polls have shown that intelligence is negatively

>related to religiosity. (There is a review of the evidence in the Spring

>1986 issue of Free Inquiry.) So one could argue that IQ is somewhat

> ...

>Any citations of evidence on these topics would be welcom to me too.

>

>--wally

There's a book that was pivotal for me to dismiss everything I was

hearing in AA. The book is not about religion as most people think of it,

but it is about belief, especially 'faith-based' belief.

The title is " The Adventures of a Parapsychologist " by Blackmore,

and her book is about her college experience, of writing a Master's thesis

on the topic. She was searching very diligently and thoroughly for hard

evidence of any kind of parapsychology, but er experiments repeatedly failed

to get positive results. Her colleagues did get results, at least until she

started looking critically at their experiments, in which she found various

problems that could make for false positives. From doing this she got a

reputation as 'psi inhibitory', someone who would cause psi to go away

when she was around.

Toward the end of the book she DID do something that got positive

results: It was a test and questionaire she did of lay people: The

questionaire was about whether the testee believed various psychic

abilities or things were real, and the test was about statistics.

Can you guess it yet? There was a very strong correlation between

knowledge of statistics and NOT believing that parapsychology exists.

I was about three or four years sober when I read the book. I had

bought into everything about AA for my first two years, including

believing in a spiritual god, after having been an atheist up until

entering AA. After two years I started to question a lot of things in

AA, not neccesarily to others in AA (that always resulted in dismissal

of any non-AA-compoliant ideas). I started reading lots of 'outside

literature', and I 'kept an open mind' about things that disagreed with

AA ideas. My belief in god grew from what was described in the first 164

pages of the big book and 12 & 12 to include what other 12-step programs

and some new-age stuff said, but then it began to dissipate like a cloud

turning to water vapor. After reading " The Adventures of a

Parapsychologist " I finally felt totally confident that I could be an

atheist, not take the steps, nor do anything AA says one should do, and

not just 'stay sober', but live a freer life without being tied to AA's

beliefs.

I recommend this book to all 325 members of this list. :-)

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

At 02:32 PM 1/13/01 -0500, wally wrote:

>Numerous studies and polls have shown that intelligence is negatively

>related to religiosity. (There is a review of the evidence in the Spring

>1986 issue of Free Inquiry.) So one could argue that IQ is somewhat

> ...

>Any citations of evidence on these topics would be welcom to me too.

>

>--wally

There's a book that was pivotal for me to dismiss everything I was

hearing in AA. The book is not about religion as most people think of it,

but it is about belief, especially 'faith-based' belief.

The title is " The Adventures of a Parapsychologist " by Blackmore,

and her book is about her college experience, of writing a Master's thesis

on the topic. She was searching very diligently and thoroughly for hard

evidence of any kind of parapsychology, but er experiments repeatedly failed

to get positive results. Her colleagues did get results, at least until she

started looking critically at their experiments, in which she found various

problems that could make for false positives. From doing this she got a

reputation as 'psi inhibitory', someone who would cause psi to go away

when she was around.

Toward the end of the book she DID do something that got positive

results: It was a test and questionaire she did of lay people: The

questionaire was about whether the testee believed various psychic

abilities or things were real, and the test was about statistics.

Can you guess it yet? There was a very strong correlation between

knowledge of statistics and NOT believing that parapsychology exists.

I was about three or four years sober when I read the book. I had

bought into everything about AA for my first two years, including

believing in a spiritual god, after having been an atheist up until

entering AA. After two years I started to question a lot of things in

AA, not neccesarily to others in AA (that always resulted in dismissal

of any non-AA-compoliant ideas). I started reading lots of 'outside

literature', and I 'kept an open mind' about things that disagreed with

AA ideas. My belief in god grew from what was described in the first 164

pages of the big book and 12 & 12 to include what other 12-step programs

and some new-age stuff said, but then it began to dissipate like a cloud

turning to water vapor. After reading " The Adventures of a

Parapsychologist " I finally felt totally confident that I could be an

atheist, not take the steps, nor do anything AA says one should do, and

not just 'stay sober', but live a freer life without being tied to AA's

beliefs.

I recommend this book to all 325 members of this list. :-)

-----

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 1/12/01 6:51:22 PM Central Standard Time,

> 12-step-freeegroups writes:

>

>

> > , there is some evidence that viewpoints

> > like political conservatism and religiousness have a degree of

> >

>

> Please cite your sources for such a statement.

Why Hello to you too Edgar. I wasnt aware this was a scientific

journal.

It's recent evidence from twin studies. In lieu of cites, can KI say

that I am generally a nurture rhather than nature man and it is

actually difficult for me to admit to the above; I would rather it

were not true.

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 1/12/01 6:51:22 PM Central Standard Time,

> 12-step-freeegroups writes:

>

>

> > , there is some evidence that viewpoints

> > like political conservatism and religiousness have a degree of

> >

>

> Please cite your sources for such a statement.

Why Hello to you too Edgar. I wasnt aware this was a scientific

journal.

It's recent evidence from twin studies. In lieu of cites, can KI say

that I am generally a nurture rhather than nature man and it is

actually difficult for me to admit to the above; I would rather it

were not true.

[Guest guest]

> In a message dated 1/12/01 6:51:22 PM Central Standard Time,

> 12-step-freeegroups writes:

>

>

> > , there is some evidence that viewpoints

> > like political conservatism and religiousness have a degree of

> >

>

> Please cite your sources for such a statement.

Why Hello to you too Edgar. I wasnt aware this was a scientific

journal.

It's recent evidence from twin studies. In lieu of cites, can KI say

that I am generally a nurture rhather than nature man and it is

actually difficult for me to admit to the above; I would rather it

were not true.

[Guest guest]

Hi Ben,

I guess my experience paralleled yours somewhat. For about 10 years after I

was out of college I had little interest in religion or 'spirituality' until

I stumbled into AA. Then, as part of an effort to figure out what the heck

was going on, I started reading (among other things) the magazine Skeptical

Inquirer in the mid-80's. They printed several articles by Blackmore. (I

still haven't read any of her books, though.)

I began to see that AA/treatment was really nothing more than a

garden-variety faith-healing scam.

But I never gained any confidence in my ability to stay sober with or

without AA until I learned that the Disease Theory itself was pure baloney.

--wally

Re: Re: Digest Number 572

> At 02:32 PM 1/13/01 -0500, wally wrote:

> >Numerous studies and polls have shown that intelligence is negatively

> >related to religiosity. (There is a review of the evidence in the Spring

> >1986 issue of Free Inquiry.) So one could argue that IQ is somewhat

>

> > ...

>

> >Any citations of evidence on these topics would be welcom to me too.

> >

> >--wally

>

> There's a book that was pivotal for me to dismiss everything I was

> hearing in AA. The book is not about religion as most people think of it,

> but it is about belief, especially 'faith-based' belief.

> The title is " The Adventures of a Parapsychologist " by Blackmore,

> and her book is about her college experience, of writing a Master's thesis

> on the topic. She was searching very diligently and thoroughly for hard

> evidence of any kind of parapsychology, but er experiments repeatedly

failed

> to get positive results. Her colleagues did get results, at least until

she

> started looking critically at their experiments, in which she found

various

> problems that could make for false positives. From doing this she got a

> reputation as 'psi inhibitory', someone who would cause psi to go away

> when she was around.

> Toward the end of the book she DID do something that got positive

> results: It was a test and questionaire she did of lay people: The

> questionaire was about whether the testee believed various psychic

> abilities or things were real, and the test was about statistics.

> Can you guess it yet? There was a very strong correlation between

> knowledge of statistics and NOT believing that parapsychology exists.

> I was about three or four years sober when I read the book. I had

> bought into everything about AA for my first two years, including

> believing in a spiritual god, after having been an atheist up until

> entering AA. After two years I started to question a lot of things in

> AA, not neccesarily to others in AA (that always resulted in dismissal

> of any non-AA-compoliant ideas). I started reading lots of 'outside

> literature', and I 'kept an open mind' about things that disagreed with

> AA ideas. My belief in god grew from what was described in the first 164

> pages of the big book and 12 & 12 to include what other 12-step programs

> and some new-age stuff said, but then it began to dissipate like a cloud

> turning to water vapor. After reading " The Adventures of a

> Parapsychologist " I finally felt totally confident that I could be an

> atheist, not take the steps, nor do anything AA says one should do, and

> not just 'stay sober', but live a freer life without being tied to AA's

> beliefs.

> I recommend this book to all 325 members of this list. :-)

>

> -----

> http://listen.to/benbradley

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ben,

I guess my experience paralleled yours somewhat. For about 10 years after I

was out of college I had little interest in religion or 'spirituality' until

I stumbled into AA. Then, as part of an effort to figure out what the heck

was going on, I started reading (among other things) the magazine Skeptical

Inquirer in the mid-80's. They printed several articles by Blackmore. (I

still haven't read any of her books, though.)

I began to see that AA/treatment was really nothing more than a

garden-variety faith-healing scam.

But I never gained any confidence in my ability to stay sober with or

without AA until I learned that the Disease Theory itself was pure baloney.

--wally

Re: Re: Digest Number 572

> At 02:32 PM 1/13/01 -0500, wally wrote:

> >Numerous studies and polls have shown that intelligence is negatively

> >related to religiosity. (There is a review of the evidence in the Spring

> >1986 issue of Free Inquiry.) So one could argue that IQ is somewhat

>

> > ...

>

> >Any citations of evidence on these topics would be welcom to me too.

> >

> >--wally

>

> There's a book that was pivotal for me to dismiss everything I was

> hearing in AA. The book is not about religion as most people think of it,

> but it is about belief, especially 'faith-based' belief.

> The title is " The Adventures of a Parapsychologist " by Blackmore,

> and her book is about her college experience, of writing a Master's thesis

> on the topic. She was searching very diligently and thoroughly for hard

> evidence of any kind of parapsychology, but er experiments repeatedly

failed

> to get positive results. Her colleagues did get results, at least until

she

> started looking critically at their experiments, in which she found

various

> problems that could make for false positives. From doing this she got a

> reputation as 'psi inhibitory', someone who would cause psi to go away

> when she was around.

> Toward the end of the book she DID do something that got positive

> results: It was a test and questionaire she did of lay people: The

> questionaire was about whether the testee believed various psychic

> abilities or things were real, and the test was about statistics.

> Can you guess it yet? There was a very strong correlation between

> knowledge of statistics and NOT believing that parapsychology exists.

> I was about three or four years sober when I read the book. I had

> bought into everything about AA for my first two years, including

> believing in a spiritual god, after having been an atheist up until

> entering AA. After two years I started to question a lot of things in

> AA, not neccesarily to others in AA (that always resulted in dismissal

> of any non-AA-compoliant ideas). I started reading lots of 'outside

> literature', and I 'kept an open mind' about things that disagreed with

> AA ideas. My belief in god grew from what was described in the first 164

> pages of the big book and 12 & 12 to include what other 12-step programs

> and some new-age stuff said, but then it began to dissipate like a cloud

> turning to water vapor. After reading " The Adventures of a

> Parapsychologist " I finally felt totally confident that I could be an

> atheist, not take the steps, nor do anything AA says one should do, and

> not just 'stay sober', but live a freer life without being tied to AA's

> beliefs.

> I recommend this book to all 325 members of this list. :-)

>

> -----

> http://listen.to/benbradley

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Ben,

I guess my experience paralleled yours somewhat. For about 10 years after I

was out of college I had little interest in religion or 'spirituality' until

I stumbled into AA. Then, as part of an effort to figure out what the heck

was going on, I started reading (among other things) the magazine Skeptical

Inquirer in the mid-80's. They printed several articles by Blackmore. (I

still haven't read any of her books, though.)

I began to see that AA/treatment was really nothing more than a

garden-variety faith-healing scam.

But I never gained any confidence in my ability to stay sober with or

without AA until I learned that the Disease Theory itself was pure baloney.

--wally

Re: Re: Digest Number 572

> At 02:32 PM 1/13/01 -0500, wally wrote:

> >Numerous studies and polls have shown that intelligence is negatively

> >related to religiosity. (There is a review of the evidence in the Spring

> >1986 issue of Free Inquiry.) So one could argue that IQ is somewhat

>

> > ...

>

> >Any citations of evidence on these topics would be welcom to me too.

> >

> >--wally

>

> There's a book that was pivotal for me to dismiss everything I was

> hearing in AA. The book is not about religion as most people think of it,

> but it is about belief, especially 'faith-based' belief.

> The title is " The Adventures of a Parapsychologist " by Blackmore,

> and her book is about her college experience, of writing a Master's thesis

> on the topic. She was searching very diligently and thoroughly for hard

> evidence of any kind of parapsychology, but er experiments repeatedly

failed

> to get positive results. Her colleagues did get results, at least until

she

> started looking critically at their experiments, in which she found

various

> problems that could make for false positives. From doing this she got a

> reputation as 'psi inhibitory', someone who would cause psi to go away

> when she was around.

> Toward the end of the book she DID do something that got positive

> results: It was a test and questionaire she did of lay people: The

> questionaire was about whether the testee believed various psychic

> abilities or things were real, and the test was about statistics.

> Can you guess it yet? There was a very strong correlation between

> knowledge of statistics and NOT believing that parapsychology exists.

> I was about three or four years sober when I read the book. I had

> bought into everything about AA for my first two years, including

> believing in a spiritual god, after having been an atheist up until

> entering AA. After two years I started to question a lot of things in

> AA, not neccesarily to others in AA (that always resulted in dismissal

> of any non-AA-compoliant ideas). I started reading lots of 'outside

> literature', and I 'kept an open mind' about things that disagreed with

> AA ideas. My belief in god grew from what was described in the first 164

> pages of the big book and 12 & 12 to include what other 12-step programs

> and some new-age stuff said, but then it began to dissipate like a cloud

> turning to water vapor. After reading " The Adventures of a

> Parapsychologist " I finally felt totally confident that I could be an

> atheist, not take the steps, nor do anything AA says one should do, and

> not just 'stay sober', but live a freer life without being tied to AA's

> beliefs.

> I recommend this book to all 325 members of this list. :-)

>

> -----

> http://listen.to/benbradley

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/13/01 1:46:33 PM Pacific Standard Time,

benbradley@... writes:

<< After reading " The Adventures of a

Parapsychologist " I finally felt totally confident that I could be an

atheist, not take the steps, nor do anything AA says one should do, and

not just 'stay sober', but live a freer life without being tied to AA's

beliefs.

I recommend this book to all 325 members of this list. :-) >>

Many, many thanks Ben. Piper.