Guest guest Posted January 4, 2001 Report Share Posted January 4, 2001 aa has many anti intellectual slogans designed to undermine critical thinking, I think if you ask an AA they'll tell you that the critical thinking these slogans are aimed at is only that thinking which talks a person into a drink. It is true that many continue to talk themselves into this drink day after day and it must be addressed if a problem drinker is to find a solution. In actual practice, which is all that matters, you are absolutely right. All critical thinking is undermined, a horrible case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.(A really horrible image, don't you think? Wow, I never sat down and really thought about that one.) This process is always justified by the need to help somebody. Can't criticize the traditions because they're what allows AA to survive, and without AA we'll all die, sooner than later. Can't criticize the fellowship - the automatic response and copout is, "Of course the fellowship is flawed. We're alcoholics. But the Program is perfect." it is only way they can keep their their spell of the group consciousness working. if you were to examine their claims rationally, they would fall apart like tissue paper. I'm jumping out of your post a little bit. The following has not so much to do with what you said but with some thought I've been having that were triggered by it: I've struggled a long time with the term "they" used in this context. It is they, as in the established members of AA, who repeat the slogans, sponsor the newcomers, etc. But I think that using "they" in the sense that there's an organized effort of individuals who think rationally and form plans to undermine a person's free-thinking is not quite accurate, although there are many, many cases of this elsewhere. AA is a group of people who are offered an illusion (in my site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com I call it a box they put on their head) by people who at one time were offered the same illusion and chose to make it part of their life. As an aside, I hate the word choice. 99.9% of the time when people talk about how they choose to do something, it's anything but a choice. I choose chocolate over vanilla just because I feel like it. If I choose chocolate over vanilla because I like chocolate better, it's not a choice because it's not free. There's something pushing me toward chocolate and away from vanilla. Likewise in AA there is no real choice. People are being propelled by the Boogeyman definition of alcoholism to join and believe AA. Anyway...so what I see AA as is a group of self-deluding people who assist in deluding each other in a bizarre type of "professional courtesy." I'm open for a better word, Pete. Gotta go to work. Later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2001 Report Share Posted January 4, 2001 aa has many anti intellectual slogans designed to undermine critical thinking, I think if you ask an AA they'll tell you that the critical thinking these slogans are aimed at is only that thinking which talks a person into a drink. It is true that many continue to talk themselves into this drink day after day and it must be addressed if a problem drinker is to find a solution. In actual practice, which is all that matters, you are absolutely right. All critical thinking is undermined, a horrible case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.(A really horrible image, don't you think? Wow, I never sat down and really thought about that one.) This process is always justified by the need to help somebody. Can't criticize the traditions because they're what allows AA to survive, and without AA we'll all die, sooner than later. Can't criticize the fellowship - the automatic response and copout is, "Of course the fellowship is flawed. We're alcoholics. But the Program is perfect." it is only way they can keep their their spell of the group consciousness working. if you were to examine their claims rationally, they would fall apart like tissue paper. I'm jumping out of your post a little bit. The following has not so much to do with what you said but with some thought I've been having that were triggered by it: I've struggled a long time with the term "they" used in this context. It is they, as in the established members of AA, who repeat the slogans, sponsor the newcomers, etc. But I think that using "they" in the sense that there's an organized effort of individuals who think rationally and form plans to undermine a person's free-thinking is not quite accurate, although there are many, many cases of this elsewhere. AA is a group of people who are offered an illusion (in my site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com I call it a box they put on their head) by people who at one time were offered the same illusion and chose to make it part of their life. As an aside, I hate the word choice. 99.9% of the time when people talk about how they choose to do something, it's anything but a choice. I choose chocolate over vanilla just because I feel like it. If I choose chocolate over vanilla because I like chocolate better, it's not a choice because it's not free. There's something pushing me toward chocolate and away from vanilla. Likewise in AA there is no real choice. People are being propelled by the Boogeyman definition of alcoholism to join and believe AA. Anyway...so what I see AA as is a group of self-deluding people who assist in deluding each other in a bizarre type of "professional courtesy." I'm open for a better word, Pete. Gotta go to work. Later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2001 Report Share Posted January 4, 2001 aa has many anti intellectual slogans designed to undermine critical thinking, I think if you ask an AA they'll tell you that the critical thinking these slogans are aimed at is only that thinking which talks a person into a drink. It is true that many continue to talk themselves into this drink day after day and it must be addressed if a problem drinker is to find a solution. In actual practice, which is all that matters, you are absolutely right. All critical thinking is undermined, a horrible case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.(A really horrible image, don't you think? Wow, I never sat down and really thought about that one.) This process is always justified by the need to help somebody. Can't criticize the traditions because they're what allows AA to survive, and without AA we'll all die, sooner than later. Can't criticize the fellowship - the automatic response and copout is, "Of course the fellowship is flawed. We're alcoholics. But the Program is perfect." it is only way they can keep their their spell of the group consciousness working. if you were to examine their claims rationally, they would fall apart like tissue paper. I'm jumping out of your post a little bit. The following has not so much to do with what you said but with some thought I've been having that were triggered by it: I've struggled a long time with the term "they" used in this context. It is they, as in the established members of AA, who repeat the slogans, sponsor the newcomers, etc. But I think that using "they" in the sense that there's an organized effort of individuals who think rationally and form plans to undermine a person's free-thinking is not quite accurate, although there are many, many cases of this elsewhere. AA is a group of people who are offered an illusion (in my site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com I call it a box they put on their head) by people who at one time were offered the same illusion and chose to make it part of their life. As an aside, I hate the word choice. 99.9% of the time when people talk about how they choose to do something, it's anything but a choice. I choose chocolate over vanilla just because I feel like it. If I choose chocolate over vanilla because I like chocolate better, it's not a choice because it's not free. There's something pushing me toward chocolate and away from vanilla. Likewise in AA there is no real choice. People are being propelled by the Boogeyman definition of alcoholism to join and believe AA. Anyway...so what I see AA as is a group of self-deluding people who assist in deluding each other in a bizarre type of "professional courtesy." I'm open for a better word, Pete. Gotta go to work. Later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 5, 2001 Report Share Posted January 5, 2001 <G> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2001 Report Share Posted January 7, 2001 Nate, could you please format your messages so they don't come out in itty bitty tiny writing? They're hard to read in their current format. Thanks! Nate s wrote: > > aa has many anti intellectual slogans designed to undermine > critical thinking, I think if you ask an AA they'll tell you that the > critical thinking these slogans are aimed at is only that thinking > which talks a person into a drink. It is true that many continue to > talk themselves into this drink day after day and it must be addressed > if a problem drinker is to find a solution. In actual practice, which > is all that matters, you are absolutely right. All critical thinking > is undermined, a horrible case of throwing out the baby with the > bathwater.(A really horrible image, don't you think? Wow, I never sat > down and really thought about that one.) This process is always > justified by the need to help somebody. Can't criticize the > traditions because they're what allows AA to survive, and without AA > we'll all die, sooner than later. Can't criticize the fellowship - > the automatic response and copout is, " Of course the fellowship is > flawed. We're alcoholics. But the Program is perfect. " it is only > way they can keep their their spell of the > group consciousness working. if you were to examine their > claims rationally, they would fall apart like tissue paper. I'm > jumping out of your post a little bit. The following has not so much > to do with what you said but with some thought I've been having that > were triggered by it: I've struggled a long time with the term " they " > used in this context. It is they, as in the established members of > AA, who repeat the slogans, sponsor the newcomers, etc. But I think > that using " they " in the sense that there's an organized effort of > individuals who think rationally and form plans to undermine a > person's free-thinking is not quite accurate, although there are many, > many cases of this elsewhere. AA is a group of people who are offered > an illusion (in my site, www.sobrietyfrontiers.com I call it a box > they put on their head) by people who at one time were offered the > same illusion and chose to make it part of their life. As an aside, I > hate the word choice. 99.9% of the time when people talk about how > they choose to do something, it's anything but a choice. I choose > chocolate over vanilla just because I feel like it. If I choose > chocolate over vanilla because I like chocolate better, it's not a > choice because it's not free. There's something pushing me toward > chocolate and away from vanilla. Likewise in AA there is no real > choice. People are being propelled by the Boogeyman definition of > alcoholism to join and believe AA. Anyway...so what I see AA as is a > group of self-deluding people who assist in deluding each other in a > bizarre type of " professional courtesy. " I'm open for a better word, > Pete. Gotta go to work. Later > > > eGroups Sponsor [Click Here!] > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2001 Report Share Posted January 7, 2001 Nate wrote: " Can't criticize the fellowship - the automatic response and copout is, " Of course the fellowship is flawed. We're alcoholics. But the Program is perfect. " it is only way they can keep their their spell of the group consciousness working. " But ask an AA what makes The Program what it is, and he or she will say " the people. " One night when I was still considering ditching AA for the sake of my sanity and said as much as an after meeting coffee klatsch, one of those insufferable AA guru types defended the fellowship, pretty much saying exactly what Nate had typed. Being one of the few people attending meetings who wasn't focusing on getting newcomers into bed, I was actually listening and retaining what was said in meetings. " But Larry, " I said, " just the other night, you told us that The Program was only as good as its people. That kind of sounds like you said that the fellowship is The Program. Therefore, if The Program is the fellowship, and the fellowship is flawed, then wouldn't that mean that The Program is flawed? " Poor Larry looked like his head was about to explode. About five minutes later he pulled me aside and lectured me about repeating things outside of meetings, which I guess is all the face-saving he could muster. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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