Re: Re: Suffolk Co. Incident (was: About Recovery - Training t...

January 5, 2001

hi all,

It seems to me the woman had two choices. Of course she wouldn't have been in the situation had she been sober, but let's just say she was perfectly sober and she was pulled over for running a red light(something nearly as dangerous to others and self as driving under the influence) and were given the same two choices ........ Would she then strip if told to by the officer or would she refuse an accept whatever consequences ...... ?

How 'bout postulating this: Who would be the "victim" if she had plowed into another vehicle and left someones soul smashed to pieces all over the road?

another thought .... most police officers are required through the nature of thier job to be rescue personel at the scene of many accidents, far to many caused by drunk drivers. I have talked to several who do this for a living aboutb this particularly difficult aspect of thier resposibilityies and it is both an extremely difficult thig to do and absolutely heartbreaking almost everytime. I may not agree with his particular choice under the circumstances but maybe I would have given her a ride down to the morgue to have a damn good look at what she was fortunate to not have happen to her or someone she cared about.

Finally, I was not there. I don't know the woman or the officer but it seems to me to be a significant stretch to start labeling someone an abusive redneck power tripping policeman from my easy chair in front of this safe and protective computer screen. There are infinate variables of posibilities engendered in the given situation, who am I to judge anyones behaviour or mental state except by the simple facts. One huge one pops into my mind. This woman was brandishing a huge deadly weopon, in an intoxicated condition, in a public place ..........

I am not defending nor condemning anyone just thinking too much as I've often been "accused". I do expect everyone to accept responsibility for thier actions.

steve

January 5, 2001

hi all,

It seems to me the woman had two choices. Of course she wouldn't have been in the situation had she been sober, but let's just say she was perfectly sober and she was pulled over for running a red light(something nearly as dangerous to others and self as driving under the influence) and were given the same two choices ........ Would she then strip if told to by the officer or would she refuse an accept whatever consequences ...... ?

How 'bout postulating this: Who would be the "victim" if she had plowed into another vehicle and left someones soul smashed to pieces all over the road?

another thought .... most police officers are required through the nature of thier job to be rescue personel at the scene of many accidents, far to many caused by drunk drivers. I have talked to several who do this for a living aboutb this particularly difficult aspect of thier resposibilityies and it is both an extremely difficult thig to do and absolutely heartbreaking almost everytime. I may not agree with his particular choice under the circumstances but maybe I would have given her a ride down to the morgue to have a damn good look at what she was fortunate to not have happen to her or someone she cared about.

Finally, I was not there. I don't know the woman or the officer but it seems to me to be a significant stretch to start labeling someone an abusive redneck power tripping policeman from my easy chair in front of this safe and protective computer screen. There are infinate variables of posibilities engendered in the given situation, who am I to judge anyones behaviour or mental state except by the simple facts. One huge one pops into my mind. This woman was brandishing a huge deadly weopon, in an intoxicated condition, in a public place ..........

I am not defending nor condemning anyone just thinking too much as I've often been "accused". I do expect everyone to accept responsibility for thier actions.

steve

January 6, 2001

How DARE he insinuate that alcohol "made" the woman get ordered to str=

ip nearly naked by this abusive, power-tripping policeman??

I just saw a news story about this where they interviewed the women on MSNBC - there were actually THREE women, not just the one.

the officer has been suspended without pay

Sue A

January 6, 2001

How DARE he insinuate that alcohol "made" the woman get ordered to str=

ip nearly naked by this abusive, power-tripping policeman??

I just saw a news story about this where they interviewed the women on MSNBC - there were actually THREE women, not just the one.

the officer has been suspended without pay

Sue A

January 6, 2001

How DARE he insinuate that alcohol "made" the woman get ordered to str=

ip nearly naked by this abusive, power-tripping policeman??

I just saw a news story about this where they interviewed the women on MSNBC - there were actually THREE women, not just the one.

the officer has been suspended without pay

Sue A

January 6, 2001

Hi All,

I must take exception to > an even more extreme example of the AA-ceorcion type of rationalization.< I have never nor will I ever subsrcibe to any notion that aa is anything more than hokie nonsense parlayed upon good, well intentioned people at a desperate point in thier lives when thier self concept and grasp of will has been decimated, with no greater purpose, like all religions, than selfpurpetuation through brainwashing and fearmongering. And a little money-grubbing by a select few.

The whole concept of religion has always given me the heebie-jeebies. I had an epiphany, while sitting in a church when I was seven years old, that the god thing was just a bunch of mumbo jumbo. You may think that that is a stretch but it is true. I have been in some pretty dark situations in my life, some that would make most people wet themselves and through my own concoction of philosophy, I have survived, and grown as a person in actualization of my self and my will over any external "stimulus".

Of course, I have had doubts about my own will and self, and questions of purpose in this great accident of existance, I am human, and I feel a great deal of empathy for others who are struck at that same moment.......We all have have questions..... And when some "group" preys upon that moment of darkness of the soul for whatever sinister purpose, hidden or not, it makes me , well, it just pisses me off. We must all find our own way, but when someone is coerced to turn thier will and thier lives over to an external concept of omnipotence I believe that there occurs a little bit of living death for that person. ...... and that is a very sad thing.

Nuff 'bout that.

I apologize for not being more informed in my earlier response and thoughts regarding the suffolk co. incident. I was reponding to only what I had seen here and I do get a little pissy about drunk drivers. I should have gone to the url and informed myself. Duh. I accept my well deserved spanking.

I am fortunate to live in a state of very small towns where 99.9 percent of the police officers are really great people who know thier neighbors and do not abuse others. I based my comments on my knowledge and experience with these fine people and that not all people having interactions with police are on thier best behaviour, ie; drunk and beligerent. I have misbehaved manytimes and have always been treated better than I probably should have. In a town of a couple thousand people where everybody knows everybody, we deal with things here on a more human level. We all too often see tragedy, the criminal justice response to that has little or no effect on the "offender", and these human timebombes are carousing around playing russian roulette with the lives and wellbeing of others. Often a creative approach has a more "moving" effect on the person. There are times when we should not neccessarily put the constitution in ou!

r back pocket, but not wave it around so religiously and let two human beings get from point a to point b. That may seem a little simplistic to you but that big "us against them" mentality is more often a dead-end than human relationships need to be.

As I said, I would not have given the woman the choice of walking home naked, but I would be inclined drive her home and to the tour of the morgue the next day if she had been intoxicated.

I am still bothered by why any of the victims of this "officer", male or female, would strip at his directive ......especially since the particular woman who instigated this discussion was not even legally intoxicated.

Steve

January 6, 2001

Hi All,

I must take exception to > an even more extreme example of the AA-ceorcion type of rationalization.< I have never nor will I ever subsrcibe to any notion that aa is anything more than hokie nonsense parlayed upon good, well intentioned people at a desperate point in thier lives when thier self concept and grasp of will has been decimated, with no greater purpose, like all religions, than selfpurpetuation through brainwashing and fearmongering. And a little money-grubbing by a select few.

The whole concept of religion has always given me the heebie-jeebies. I had an epiphany, while sitting in a church when I was seven years old, that the god thing was just a bunch of mumbo jumbo. You may think that that is a stretch but it is true. I have been in some pretty dark situations in my life, some that would make most people wet themselves and through my own concoction of philosophy, I have survived, and grown as a person in actualization of my self and my will over any external "stimulus".

Of course, I have had doubts about my own will and self, and questions of purpose in this great accident of existance, I am human, and I feel a great deal of empathy for others who are struck at that same moment.......We all have have questions..... And when some "group" preys upon that moment of darkness of the soul for whatever sinister purpose, hidden or not, it makes me , well, it just pisses me off. We must all find our own way, but when someone is coerced to turn thier will and thier lives over to an external concept of omnipotence I believe that there occurs a little bit of living death for that person. ...... and that is a very sad thing.

Nuff 'bout that.

I apologize for not being more informed in my earlier response and thoughts regarding the suffolk co. incident. I was reponding to only what I had seen here and I do get a little pissy about drunk drivers. I should have gone to the url and informed myself. Duh. I accept my well deserved spanking.

I am fortunate to live in a state of very small towns where 99.9 percent of the police officers are really great people who know thier neighbors and do not abuse others. I based my comments on my knowledge and experience with these fine people and that not all people having interactions with police are on thier best behaviour, ie; drunk and beligerent. I have misbehaved manytimes and have always been treated better than I probably should have. In a town of a couple thousand people where everybody knows everybody, we deal with things here on a more human level. We all too often see tragedy, the criminal justice response to that has little or no effect on the "offender", and these human timebombes are carousing around playing russian roulette with the lives and wellbeing of others. Often a creative approach has a more "moving" effect on the person. There are times when we should not neccessarily put the constitution in ou!

r back pocket, but not wave it around so religiously and let two human beings get from point a to point b. That may seem a little simplistic to you but that big "us against them" mentality is more often a dead-end than human relationships need to be.

As I said, I would not have given the woman the choice of walking home naked, but I would be inclined drive her home and to the tour of the morgue the next day if she had been intoxicated.

I am still bothered by why any of the victims of this "officer", male or female, would strip at his directive ......especially since the particular woman who instigated this discussion was not even legally intoxicated.

Steve

January 6, 2001

Hi All,

I must take exception to > an even more extreme example of the AA-ceorcion type of rationalization.< I have never nor will I ever subsrcibe to any notion that aa is anything more than hokie nonsense parlayed upon good, well intentioned people at a desperate point in thier lives when thier self concept and grasp of will has been decimated, with no greater purpose, like all religions, than selfpurpetuation through brainwashing and fearmongering. And a little money-grubbing by a select few.

The whole concept of religion has always given me the heebie-jeebies. I had an epiphany, while sitting in a church when I was seven years old, that the god thing was just a bunch of mumbo jumbo. You may think that that is a stretch but it is true. I have been in some pretty dark situations in my life, some that would make most people wet themselves and through my own concoction of philosophy, I have survived, and grown as a person in actualization of my self and my will over any external "stimulus".

Of course, I have had doubts about my own will and self, and questions of purpose in this great accident of existance, I am human, and I feel a great deal of empathy for others who are struck at that same moment.......We all have have questions..... And when some "group" preys upon that moment of darkness of the soul for whatever sinister purpose, hidden or not, it makes me , well, it just pisses me off. We must all find our own way, but when someone is coerced to turn thier will and thier lives over to an external concept of omnipotence I believe that there occurs a little bit of living death for that person. ...... and that is a very sad thing.

Nuff 'bout that.

I apologize for not being more informed in my earlier response and thoughts regarding the suffolk co. incident. I was reponding to only what I had seen here and I do get a little pissy about drunk drivers. I should have gone to the url and informed myself. Duh. I accept my well deserved spanking.

I am fortunate to live in a state of very small towns where 99.9 percent of the police officers are really great people who know thier neighbors and do not abuse others. I based my comments on my knowledge and experience with these fine people and that not all people having interactions with police are on thier best behaviour, ie; drunk and beligerent. I have misbehaved manytimes and have always been treated better than I probably should have. In a town of a couple thousand people where everybody knows everybody, we deal with things here on a more human level. We all too often see tragedy, the criminal justice response to that has little or no effect on the "offender", and these human timebombes are carousing around playing russian roulette with the lives and wellbeing of others. Often a creative approach has a more "moving" effect on the person. There are times when we should not neccessarily put the constitution in ou!

r back pocket, but not wave it around so religiously and let two human beings get from point a to point b. That may seem a little simplistic to you but that big "us against them" mentality is more often a dead-end than human relationships need to be.

As I said, I would not have given the woman the choice of walking home naked, but I would be inclined drive her home and to the tour of the morgue the next day if she had been intoxicated.

I am still bothered by why any of the victims of this "officer", male or female, would strip at his directive ......especially since the particular woman who instigated this discussion was not even legally intoxicated.

Steve

January 6, 2001

Hey all,

so,let me try to grasp this...... Woman is not intoxicated and in complete control of her faculties... if arrested, would be taken to a facility where there would be witnesses, susequently more sophisticated testing equipment used with the oportunity to have a blood test done at a hospital, opportunity to contact an attorney ..........hmmmmmmm. I'm still confused.....What rational person would opt to strip naked and walk home in the dark with all the perils that that encompasses?

please excuse me, maybe I have missed something, but I still do not comprehend her choice of the two options.

steve

January 6, 2001

Hey all,

so,let me try to grasp this...... Woman is not intoxicated and in complete control of her faculties... if arrested, would be taken to a facility where there would be witnesses, susequently more sophisticated testing equipment used with the oportunity to have a blood test done at a hospital, opportunity to contact an attorney ..........hmmmmmmm. I'm still confused.....What rational person would opt to strip naked and walk home in the dark with all the perils that that encompasses?

please excuse me, maybe I have missed something, but I still do not comprehend her choice of the two options.

steve

January 6, 2001

At 01:46 PM 1/6/01 -0500, you wrote:

>I am still bothered by why any of the victims of this " officer " , male or

>female, would strip at his directive ......especially since the particular

>woman who instigated this discussion was not even legally intoxicated.

According to the stories so far, this seems to have been his

condition for not arresting them.

January 6, 2001

At 01:46 PM 1/6/01 -0500, you wrote:

>I am still bothered by why any of the victims of this " officer " , male or

>female, would strip at his directive ......especially since the particular

>woman who instigated this discussion was not even legally intoxicated.

According to the stories so far, this seems to have been his

condition for not arresting them.

January 6, 2001

At 06:59 PM 1/6/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Hey all,

>so,let me try to grasp this...... Woman is not intoxicated and in complete

>control of her faculties... if arrested, would be taken to a facility where

>there would be witnesses,

Police witnesses. The chance of a disinterested witness

being present would be pretty slim.

>susequently more sophisticated testing equipment

>used with the oportunity to have a blood test done at a hospital,

If she's lucky, perhaps. Any reason to think she'd be lucky?

FWIW, I was denied a blood test even though MA law

states that everyone shall have one who wants one. The

cops just ignored the law. And I have no idea what NY's

laws are on the subject, nor did she in all likelihood.

> opportunity

>to contact an attorney ..........

Maybe. But probably not for quite some time. And

attorneys can be contacted the next day too.

>hmmmmmmm. I'm still confused.....What

>rational person would opt to strip naked and walk home in the dark with all

>the perils that that encompasses?

The cop was watching her walk, driving alongside her.

>please excuse me, maybe I have missed something, but I still do not

>comprehend her choice of the two options.

As you can see, I do. There are a *lot* of things I'd be willing

to do rather than be arrested, with all the perils the latter

encompasses. By comparison, walking five blocks under

a policeman's leering eye sounds downright safe. At

least the walk of humiliation would be over in minutes

rather than months.

January 6, 2001

At 06:59 PM 1/6/01 -0500, you wrote:

>Hey all,

>so,let me try to grasp this...... Woman is not intoxicated and in complete

>control of her faculties... if arrested, would be taken to a facility where

>there would be witnesses,

Police witnesses. The chance of a disinterested witness

being present would be pretty slim.

>susequently more sophisticated testing equipment

>used with the oportunity to have a blood test done at a hospital,

If she's lucky, perhaps. Any reason to think she'd be lucky?

FWIW, I was denied a blood test even though MA law

states that everyone shall have one who wants one. The

cops just ignored the law. And I have no idea what NY's

laws are on the subject, nor did she in all likelihood.

> opportunity

>to contact an attorney ..........

Maybe. But probably not for quite some time. And

attorneys can be contacted the next day too.

>hmmmmmmm. I'm still confused.....What

>rational person would opt to strip naked and walk home in the dark with all

>the perils that that encompasses?

The cop was watching her walk, driving alongside her.

>please excuse me, maybe I have missed something, but I still do not

>comprehend her choice of the two options.

As you can see, I do. There are a *lot* of things I'd be willing

to do rather than be arrested, with all the perils the latter

encompasses. By comparison, walking five blocks under

a policeman's leering eye sounds downright safe. At

least the walk of humiliation would be over in minutes

rather than months.

January 6, 2001

At 12:13 AM 1/7/01 +0000, you wrote:

>I don't think it feels like a choice when an armed authority figure

>presents the " option " of stripping. My opinion, the woman was sexually

>assaulted, and choice did not enter into it.

This is an excellent point. Cops in generally, and particularly

the big-big-man variety, generally phrase everything as an

order. It requires a lot of prior knowledge, not to mention

tremendous grace under pressure, to resist these orders.

While this particular order is one that couldn't possibly

have held up in court as valid, that's not the case with

many cops' bogus orders.

These women were probably desperately frightened and

wanting nothing more than to escape. ation

often seems like the easiest way of escape from such

a situation, just as many people will cooperate with

a mugger rather than resisting.

The third woman whose story was verified even stated

explicitly that she chose to go along with his desire

to see her breasts in the hope of ending the incident

(he had already coerced her into standing in the

cold for some time). One's choices seem much

narrower when one is in such a situation.

That cop is despicable. And Buddy T is also

despicable, for implying that the victim's suffering

was somehow a result of what he presumes to

have been her drunkenness.

January 6, 2001

At 12:13 AM 1/7/01 +0000, you wrote:

>I don't think it feels like a choice when an armed authority figure

>presents the " option " of stripping. My opinion, the woman was sexually

>assaulted, and choice did not enter into it.

This is an excellent point. Cops in generally, and particularly

the big-big-man variety, generally phrase everything as an

order. It requires a lot of prior knowledge, not to mention

tremendous grace under pressure, to resist these orders.

While this particular order is one that couldn't possibly

have held up in court as valid, that's not the case with

many cops' bogus orders.

These women were probably desperately frightened and

wanting nothing more than to escape. ation

often seems like the easiest way of escape from such

a situation, just as many people will cooperate with

a mugger rather than resisting.

The third woman whose story was verified even stated

explicitly that she chose to go along with his desire

to see her breasts in the hope of ending the incident

(he had already coerced her into standing in the

cold for some time). One's choices seem much

narrower when one is in such a situation.

That cop is despicable. And Buddy T is also

despicable, for implying that the victim's suffering

was somehow a result of what he presumes to

have been her drunkenness.

January 6, 2001

sparkydawg69@... wrote:

I am still

bothered by why any of the victims of this "officer", male or

female, would strip at his

directive ......especially since the particular

woman who instigated this

discussion was not even legally intoxicated.

Steve

Hi Steve and list,

Let me start by acknowledging your recantation of

your previous position on this matter, too often we respond to criticism

anger and thoughtlessness. If we are not open to reasoned critiques,

we shut the door to intellectual growth.

As to being "bothered by why any of the victims

of this "officer", male or female, would strip at his directive", you should

be. I am assuming from your post that you would not have felt compelled

by the situation described by the targets of abuse to comply with the officers

demands that you strip. Considering the kinds of open threats the

officer made as a means of coercion, DU charges, lose of social standing,

possible difficulty pursuing my career path, spending the night in jail,

exposure of my misdeeds to my parents, I would not have complied with his

request. I too would have probably told the officer to go f**k himself.

Both you and I however, may take into the situation a whole different set

of beliefs about who we are, who the police are, what constitutes dignity,

what legal rights we have, and weather or not the threats are viable.

In addition there were many implied threats made by handcuffing, confining,

and isolating these women which we would not necessarily have inferred

from the same circumstances

Given that our culture here in North America strongly

emphasizes a male dominated authoritarian structure, the compliance of

these women when faced with these overt and implied threats is not surprising

at all. We should all be bothered by living in a culture that gives

women (and men for that matter) good reasons for following the course of

action these "victims" chose as their safest way out. I believe we

all have a better chance of understanding each other if we first accept

that we all see the world from different perspectives.

I look forward to any response you or others may

have.

Peace,

January 6, 2001