Re: [Re: Rational Recovery/Jack Trimpey]

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Since I have taught AVRT for a few years (free telephone networking, meetings,

sending materials, talking with professionals, meeting with newbys, visiting

prisons, etc) and have seen the liberations from the insight if gives people

and the end to their addictions I am very thankful for the information. It a

gas to see the lights go on and the relief they express. I'm priviledged to be

in the position to see that. Remember that AVRT was culled from the

information from self recovered people. It is a technique that while simple is

not always easy. The more times you read the RationalRecovery: The New Cure

the more you understand the wisdom of it. So many subtlies you miss the first

time through though you get enough insights to know you have the power and

have always had the power to choose to end your addiction, so good.

So, I'll help you understand where you may not have done so.

Nate: I recommend the book to

> anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit drinking should

> learn AVRT.

Thanks Nate. This happpens all the time. People who want to quit can do it

within a few days and have the decision made, lock, stock and barrel.

They get the abstinence committment effect and I'm in touch with some who have

had it for four years now.

> My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind

of

> difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site

www.rational.org

> that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his

jihad

> would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his

> split with SMART Recovery. What do you know out there?

>Hi Nate and list,

> While I believe AVRT can have some practical uses, to sell it as >total

>solution for addiction as Trimpey seems to is a bit of an over

>simplification.

It actually does take a bit of refinning the recognition. Yes the technique is

simple (transposing, agrressive listening, naming, recognizing) but easy? The

Beast is determined. By RECOGNITION learned you defeat the appetite. We

recognize our power. We are so powerful and can overcome any appetite even for

oxygen. You can stop breathing until you pass out, eating until dead, chastity

life long, drugging until death. We are more than our appetites and impulses.

We can refuse to do anything. The techniques make it easy to quit without

feeling any deprivation. It is a magic bullet for me and for hunundreds over

the past five years who have quit and celebrated their emergence into

" citizen " life.

>In the early period of my abstinence I would personify my urges to use >in

order

>to carry out an internal dialog with my " addict " .

Remember: Don't have a dialog with your " Beast " . You are empowering it. Choose

what is in your best judgement for you and stick to the goal post there. Then

you simply " recognize " it by the imagery related to your substance of choice,

the words it sends you saying you need or want the substance and the feeling

you have which when you think you may as well use are the feelings that

suddenly dissipate.

>While I always knew I was

>alking to myself I found this " dialectic in my head " useful in making >etter

>ecisions about using. I have some problems with demonizing >he " addictive

>oice " as the " Beast " .

Many of the Dr.s who have come to the RR meetings I held confirmed that the

Beast was real. The " Beast " refers to an ACTUAL part of the self. It is not a

fairy tale. The lymbic system is the Beast. The desires for food, sex and

oxygen lie there. The desire for drugs and alcohol also come from there. It

lies in the eternal now so that when you have the desire for the high you are

feeling the impulse of the primitive brain sending you a message that the

labratory is empty. The desire is felt as though oxygen deprivation has

occured. It is an illusionary survival need. The automonic nervous system is

in the primitive animal brain. It wants to live and will use your thinking,

feeling an imagery. It would indeed kill you in the satiation of its desire.

So why fratenize with the enemy?

>a little oafish, demonizing the

>subconscious workings of our minds does not strike me completely >healthy.

See above.

Again, it is not the subconscious but the appetite.

>I

personally would have found the principals of AVRT wholly inadequate for

changing the things I had to in order to free myself from the self destructive

use of drugs.

It is up to each of us to change what we don't like about our lives. To get a

nutritionist, a dr., a relationship counsellor, music, change residences,

divorse. Once the decision is fully realized that there ain't going to be no

more drinking or drugging the movement to make things better naturally

prevails.

Likely you have actually used the same system of quitting. The

Transtheoretical Model of Change also derived from self recovered people has

been used by A & D counsellor for the past ten years or so. It facilitates

deciding what it is you want in life and what it is you don't want in life.

Then doing that which you choose is healthy and will fulfill your values and

needs. Really it is very logical and common sense.

> While you may have gathered from my other post that I'm no fan of the 12

step faith healing movement, I find some of Trimpey's tactics and critiques

of

XA to be counter productive.

Yeah, Jack is abrasive and more so as the years roll on. I guess his bruises

are the cause.

People who have got their bacon waggered on repeat " treatments " would not like

AVRT when people can actually quit and get on with using the whole of society

as their recovery group, no longer attending meetings, no longer pathologizing

themselves, no longer passive to their addictions, no longer " clients " .

> I think the man might have lost sight of one of

his original objections, the de facto monopoly on " treatment " enjoyed by XA.

Yes, he's a handful. We do need bulldogs

> He

now promotes, as a for profit business, AVRT as the only cure for addiction.

The gov't makes a whooping bundle from addiction services and employs

thousands. Making money I guess is not bad. If you are helping people and they

want to pay so be it. If they want it free so be it. It is free through the

book. AA sells how many? And its free on the web. It is free.

> I

>believe all the resources of AVRT and much more are available through SMART

at

>no charge. (To be fair donations are requested by SMART)

>Here is an example of one Trimpey's " tactics " I find objectionable. .The

>following is a quote taken from the RR web site.

> " I really love the free enterprise system and the opportunities it

>makes

>available to everyone. One of the most common attacks upon me is that I >am

a

>greedy, fat cat exploiting the misery of others as president of an evil,

>for-profit corporation. This juvenile criticism always comes from

12->steppers

>who claim that because AA is a nonprofit organization it is morally >superior

to

>Rational Recovery. "

AA makes an oodle of money in the system employing thousands who got their

jobs as ex addicts who went through the 12 step, are taught 12 step workshops,

take courses by 12 steppers at University, diagnose using 12 step materials,

sell hundreds of titles. JT will never dream to have the money that is rolling

along at the conferences and through the public thinking they need 12 step.

> While I have made this basic criticism of RR I am by no means one of the

" 12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit organization it is

morally

superior to Rational Recovery. " And yet, according to Trimpey, this

criticism

" always " comes from defenders of the moral superiority of the 12 step faith

>healing movement.

> On the other hand, Trimpey is undeniably a true pioneer in the struggle

expose the 12 step faith healing movement as the religious organization >it

is.

>I would also accept that AVRT has helped far more people deal effectively

with

>addictive behavior than XA has or ever will. For this I believe Trimpey

deserves much gratitude and thanks for his tireless efforts.

Peace,

____________________________________________________________________

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

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[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Since I have taught AVRT for a few years (free telephone networking, meetings,

sending materials, talking with professionals, meeting with newbys, visiting

prisons, etc) and have seen the liberations from the insight if gives people

and the end to their addictions I am very thankful for the information. It a

gas to see the lights go on and the relief they express. I'm priviledged to be

in the position to see that. Remember that AVRT was culled from the

information from self recovered people. It is a technique that while simple is

not always easy. The more times you read the RationalRecovery: The New Cure

the more you understand the wisdom of it. So many subtlies you miss the first

time through though you get enough insights to know you have the power and

have always had the power to choose to end your addiction, so good.

So, I'll help you understand where you may not have done so.

Nate: I recommend the book to

> anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit drinking should

> learn AVRT.

Thanks Nate. This happpens all the time. People who want to quit can do it

within a few days and have the decision made, lock, stock and barrel.

They get the abstinence committment effect and I'm in touch with some who have

had it for four years now.

> My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind

of

> difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site

www.rational.org

> that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his

jihad

> would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his

> split with SMART Recovery. What do you know out there?

>Hi Nate and list,

> While I believe AVRT can have some practical uses, to sell it as >total

>solution for addiction as Trimpey seems to is a bit of an over

>simplification.

It actually does take a bit of refinning the recognition. Yes the technique is

simple (transposing, agrressive listening, naming, recognizing) but easy? The

Beast is determined. By RECOGNITION learned you defeat the appetite. We

recognize our power. We are so powerful and can overcome any appetite even for

oxygen. You can stop breathing until you pass out, eating until dead, chastity

life long, drugging until death. We are more than our appetites and impulses.

We can refuse to do anything. The techniques make it easy to quit without

feeling any deprivation. It is a magic bullet for me and for hunundreds over

the past five years who have quit and celebrated their emergence into

" citizen " life.

>In the early period of my abstinence I would personify my urges to use >in

order

>to carry out an internal dialog with my " addict " .

Remember: Don't have a dialog with your " Beast " . You are empowering it. Choose

what is in your best judgement for you and stick to the goal post there. Then

you simply " recognize " it by the imagery related to your substance of choice,

the words it sends you saying you need or want the substance and the feeling

you have which when you think you may as well use are the feelings that

suddenly dissipate.

>While I always knew I was

>alking to myself I found this " dialectic in my head " useful in making >etter

>ecisions about using. I have some problems with demonizing >he " addictive

>oice " as the " Beast " .

Many of the Dr.s who have come to the RR meetings I held confirmed that the

Beast was real. The " Beast " refers to an ACTUAL part of the self. It is not a

fairy tale. The lymbic system is the Beast. The desires for food, sex and

oxygen lie there. The desire for drugs and alcohol also come from there. It

lies in the eternal now so that when you have the desire for the high you are

feeling the impulse of the primitive brain sending you a message that the

labratory is empty. The desire is felt as though oxygen deprivation has

occured. It is an illusionary survival need. The automonic nervous system is

in the primitive animal brain. It wants to live and will use your thinking,

feeling an imagery. It would indeed kill you in the satiation of its desire.

So why fratenize with the enemy?

>a little oafish, demonizing the

>subconscious workings of our minds does not strike me completely >healthy.

See above.

Again, it is not the subconscious but the appetite.

>I

personally would have found the principals of AVRT wholly inadequate for

changing the things I had to in order to free myself from the self destructive

use of drugs.

It is up to each of us to change what we don't like about our lives. To get a

nutritionist, a dr., a relationship counsellor, music, change residences,

divorse. Once the decision is fully realized that there ain't going to be no

more drinking or drugging the movement to make things better naturally

prevails.

Likely you have actually used the same system of quitting. The

Transtheoretical Model of Change also derived from self recovered people has

been used by A & D counsellor for the past ten years or so. It facilitates

deciding what it is you want in life and what it is you don't want in life.

Then doing that which you choose is healthy and will fulfill your values and

needs. Really it is very logical and common sense.

> While you may have gathered from my other post that I'm no fan of the 12

step faith healing movement, I find some of Trimpey's tactics and critiques

of

XA to be counter productive.

Yeah, Jack is abrasive and more so as the years roll on. I guess his bruises

are the cause.

People who have got their bacon waggered on repeat " treatments " would not like

AVRT when people can actually quit and get on with using the whole of society

as their recovery group, no longer attending meetings, no longer pathologizing

themselves, no longer passive to their addictions, no longer " clients " .

> I think the man might have lost sight of one of

his original objections, the de facto monopoly on " treatment " enjoyed by XA.

Yes, he's a handful. We do need bulldogs

> He

now promotes, as a for profit business, AVRT as the only cure for addiction.

The gov't makes a whooping bundle from addiction services and employs

thousands. Making money I guess is not bad. If you are helping people and they

want to pay so be it. If they want it free so be it. It is free through the

book. AA sells how many? And its free on the web. It is free.

> I

>believe all the resources of AVRT and much more are available through SMART

at

>no charge. (To be fair donations are requested by SMART)

>Here is an example of one Trimpey's " tactics " I find objectionable. .The

>following is a quote taken from the RR web site.

> " I really love the free enterprise system and the opportunities it

>makes

>available to everyone. One of the most common attacks upon me is that I >am

a

>greedy, fat cat exploiting the misery of others as president of an evil,

>for-profit corporation. This juvenile criticism always comes from

12->steppers

>who claim that because AA is a nonprofit organization it is morally >superior

to

>Rational Recovery. "

AA makes an oodle of money in the system employing thousands who got their

jobs as ex addicts who went through the 12 step, are taught 12 step workshops,

take courses by 12 steppers at University, diagnose using 12 step materials,

sell hundreds of titles. JT will never dream to have the money that is rolling

along at the conferences and through the public thinking they need 12 step.

> While I have made this basic criticism of RR I am by no means one of the

" 12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit organization it is

morally

superior to Rational Recovery. " And yet, according to Trimpey, this

criticism

" always " comes from defenders of the moral superiority of the 12 step faith

>healing movement.

> On the other hand, Trimpey is undeniably a true pioneer in the struggle

expose the 12 step faith healing movement as the religious organization >it

is.

>I would also accept that AVRT has helped far more people deal effectively

with

>addictive behavior than XA has or ever will. For this I believe Trimpey

deserves much gratitude and thanks for his tireless efforts.

Peace,

____________________________________________________________________

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

http://home.netscape.com/webmail

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

Since I have taught AVRT for a few years (free telephone networking, meetings,

sending materials, talking with professionals, meeting with newbys, visiting

prisons, etc) and have seen the liberations from the insight if gives people

and the end to their addictions I am very thankful for the information. It a

gas to see the lights go on and the relief they express. I'm priviledged to be

in the position to see that. Remember that AVRT was culled from the

information from self recovered people. It is a technique that while simple is

not always easy. The more times you read the RationalRecovery: The New Cure

the more you understand the wisdom of it. So many subtlies you miss the first

time through though you get enough insights to know you have the power and

have always had the power to choose to end your addiction, so good.

So, I'll help you understand where you may not have done so.

Nate: I recommend the book to

> anybody. Anybody who wants to quit drinking or stay quit drinking should

> learn AVRT.

Thanks Nate. This happpens all the time. People who want to quit can do it

within a few days and have the decision made, lock, stock and barrel.

They get the abstinence committment effect and I'm in touch with some who have

had it for four years now.

> My question is: What about Jack Trimpey? From what I've read he's kind

of

> difficult to get along with. A person can tell from his site

www.rational.org

> that the guy hates AA and that's a plus in my book but I can see how his

jihad

> would turn some people off. I think this was part of the reason behind his

> split with SMART Recovery. What do you know out there?

>Hi Nate and list,

> While I believe AVRT can have some practical uses, to sell it as >total

>solution for addiction as Trimpey seems to is a bit of an over

>simplification.

It actually does take a bit of refinning the recognition. Yes the technique is

simple (transposing, agrressive listening, naming, recognizing) but easy? The

Beast is determined. By RECOGNITION learned you defeat the appetite. We

recognize our power. We are so powerful and can overcome any appetite even for

oxygen. You can stop breathing until you pass out, eating until dead, chastity

life long, drugging until death. We are more than our appetites and impulses.

We can refuse to do anything. The techniques make it easy to quit without

feeling any deprivation. It is a magic bullet for me and for hunundreds over

the past five years who have quit and celebrated their emergence into

" citizen " life.

>In the early period of my abstinence I would personify my urges to use >in

order

>to carry out an internal dialog with my " addict " .

Remember: Don't have a dialog with your " Beast " . You are empowering it. Choose

what is in your best judgement for you and stick to the goal post there. Then

you simply " recognize " it by the imagery related to your substance of choice,

the words it sends you saying you need or want the substance and the feeling

you have which when you think you may as well use are the feelings that

suddenly dissipate.

>While I always knew I was

>alking to myself I found this " dialectic in my head " useful in making >etter

>ecisions about using. I have some problems with demonizing >he " addictive

>oice " as the " Beast " .

Many of the Dr.s who have come to the RR meetings I held confirmed that the

Beast was real. The " Beast " refers to an ACTUAL part of the self. It is not a

fairy tale. The lymbic system is the Beast. The desires for food, sex and

oxygen lie there. The desire for drugs and alcohol also come from there. It

lies in the eternal now so that when you have the desire for the high you are

feeling the impulse of the primitive brain sending you a message that the

labratory is empty. The desire is felt as though oxygen deprivation has

occured. It is an illusionary survival need. The automonic nervous system is

in the primitive animal brain. It wants to live and will use your thinking,

feeling an imagery. It would indeed kill you in the satiation of its desire.

So why fratenize with the enemy?

>a little oafish, demonizing the

>subconscious workings of our minds does not strike me completely >healthy.

See above.

Again, it is not the subconscious but the appetite.

>I

personally would have found the principals of AVRT wholly inadequate for

changing the things I had to in order to free myself from the self destructive

use of drugs.

It is up to each of us to change what we don't like about our lives. To get a

nutritionist, a dr., a relationship counsellor, music, change residences,

divorse. Once the decision is fully realized that there ain't going to be no

more drinking or drugging the movement to make things better naturally

prevails.

Likely you have actually used the same system of quitting. The

Transtheoretical Model of Change also derived from self recovered people has

been used by A & D counsellor for the past ten years or so. It facilitates

deciding what it is you want in life and what it is you don't want in life.

Then doing that which you choose is healthy and will fulfill your values and

needs. Really it is very logical and common sense.

> While you may have gathered from my other post that I'm no fan of the 12

step faith healing movement, I find some of Trimpey's tactics and critiques

of

XA to be counter productive.

Yeah, Jack is abrasive and more so as the years roll on. I guess his bruises

are the cause.

People who have got their bacon waggered on repeat " treatments " would not like

AVRT when people can actually quit and get on with using the whole of society

as their recovery group, no longer attending meetings, no longer pathologizing

themselves, no longer passive to their addictions, no longer " clients " .

> I think the man might have lost sight of one of

his original objections, the de facto monopoly on " treatment " enjoyed by XA.

Yes, he's a handful. We do need bulldogs

> He

now promotes, as a for profit business, AVRT as the only cure for addiction.

The gov't makes a whooping bundle from addiction services and employs

thousands. Making money I guess is not bad. If you are helping people and they

want to pay so be it. If they want it free so be it. It is free through the

book. AA sells how many? And its free on the web. It is free.

> I

>believe all the resources of AVRT and much more are available through SMART

at

>no charge. (To be fair donations are requested by SMART)

>Here is an example of one Trimpey's " tactics " I find objectionable. .The

>following is a quote taken from the RR web site.

> " I really love the free enterprise system and the opportunities it

>makes

>available to everyone. One of the most common attacks upon me is that I >am

a

>greedy, fat cat exploiting the misery of others as president of an evil,

>for-profit corporation. This juvenile criticism always comes from

12->steppers

>who claim that because AA is a nonprofit organization it is morally >superior

to

>Rational Recovery. "

AA makes an oodle of money in the system employing thousands who got their

jobs as ex addicts who went through the 12 step, are taught 12 step workshops,

take courses by 12 steppers at University, diagnose using 12 step materials,

sell hundreds of titles. JT will never dream to have the money that is rolling

along at the conferences and through the public thinking they need 12 step.

> While I have made this basic criticism of RR I am by no means one of the

" 12-steppers who claim that because AA is a nonprofit organization it is

morally

superior to Rational Recovery. " And yet, according to Trimpey, this

criticism

" always " comes from defenders of the moral superiority of the 12 step faith

>healing movement.

> On the other hand, Trimpey is undeniably a true pioneer in the struggle

expose the 12 step faith healing movement as the religious organization >it

is.

>I would also accept that AVRT has helped far more people deal effectively

with

>addictive behavior than XA has or ever will. For this I believe Trimpey

deserves much gratitude and thanks for his tireless efforts.

Peace,

____________________________________________________________________

Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at

http://home.netscape.com/webmail

[Guest guest]

Hi,

Hmmm, of course it is you picking up the bottle or needle. Who else could it

be? Mr. McGoo?

There is a line delineating you and the appetite. You are more than an

appetite.

If you read the book you will find the diagram like this:

You

The thinking part you call by your very name. You say yes to quitting and no

to using.

The appetite comes from the lymbic system (which Dr. associates of mine and

my research confirm) and it has a different agenda. The appetite says yes to

getting the buzz and never to quitting. You hold consciousness. It has none.

Do you ever remember hurt? We are made to forget pain. That is why

consciousness is voted on behalf of health or responsibility because appetite

forgets pain. That's natural, healthy and necessary. We don't want to go

through life with our heads turned on backwards. Making an irrevocable

decision to quit drugs or booze comes from our thinking and remembering. An

appetite doesn't remember. It only wants what it wants whether that be sex or

drugs. But you the person you know by your name and history makes the

decision whether to follow on the impulse to get high. It can't be any other

way.

Carol

They are completely opposite.

12-step-freeegroups wrote:

>

> sparkydawg69@... wrote:

>

> > Hi All ..... ,

> >

> > I really can't see how my comments can be misunderstood or one could

derive

> a

> > different meening or lack of continuity from one paragraph to

another.......

> >

> > To clarify: I think " the beast " type of approach is a load of convenient

> > escapism. You can blame anyone or anything, any little part of your brain

> for

> > your behavior but YOU lifted yer ass up outa that chair, walked to

> > where-ever, picked up that substance and put it into yer body. Unless you

> > have a brain tumor the size of a grapefruit you alone are responsible.

What,

> > were ya sleepwalking? Oh, so now there are consequences, now is the time

to

> > play the blame/excuse lottery, " Oh, it's my damn limbic system. " Gimme a

> > break!

>

> Steve,

>

>     I think you may have confused my comments with those of Carol, whom I

was

> responding to.  I do not believe you will find any comments of mine posted

to

> this list supporting AVRT/Beast theory.  Nor will you find that I have said

> addictive use of drugs is anything less than 100 percent within the

> individuals

> control.  You might want to reread the post in question before commenting

any

> further.

>     BTW, you seem to have a misconception regarding AVRT.  AVRT does assign

> responsibility for using drugs to anything but the individual.  The " you

> lifted

> your ass out of the chair " concept is central to RR.  Just to be perfectly

> clear, my pointing out this basic fact of AVRT should not be mistaken for

> support of AVRT.

>

>         Peace,

>        

>

> ps  Was not sure weather to sign off with " Peace " or not.  I'm not sure if

> Steve

> is having words with me or some mythical hybrid of Carol and myself.

>

>

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[Guest guest]

Hi all and , I'm not having words with anyone, just expressing my opinion, as is the overall purpose of this list, is it not?

Sorry I mistook the origin of the beast fantasy, .

To whom it was that expressed that " beast"train of thought, I respectfully and sarcasticly disagree.

Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi all and , I'm not having words with anyone, just expressing my opinion, as is the overall purpose of this list, is it not?

Sorry I mistook the origin of the beast fantasy, .

To whom it was that expressed that " beast"train of thought, I respectfully and sarcasticly disagree.

Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi all and , I'm not having words with anyone, just expressing my opinion, as is the overall purpose of this list, is it not?

Sorry I mistook the origin of the beast fantasy, .

To whom it was that expressed that " beast"train of thought, I respectfully and sarcasticly disagree.

Steve

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/01 4:21:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< Seriously, though, giving character and will, sentient motivation, to a

part

of our brains that we barely understand, to explain away our cognitive

concious behavior is desperate grasping at anything, anything, to avoid

responsibilty for your own behavior. The Son of Sam would have been prou >>

It is also anti-intellectual, one of our favourite characterisitics of AA.

Avoiding responsibility for your behavior --- I'm not sure that is the

salient characteristic of any system that does what you so eloquently

describe above. While people are feverishly trying to understand the reward

systems in neural networks of the brain to give us real data to work with in

combatting compulsive behavior, we have short-sheeters ( I don't even know

what I mean by that) encouraging people not to think.

If anything, people fighting to combat powerful urges, whatever the

combination of variables of causality, have feelings of responsibility about

their behaviour to the extremes of guilt, blame and shame. Some of the

writings on obsessive thought (Wegner comes to mind) are interesting. The

more you try to suppress the thought of something you DONT want to do, the

stronger it becomes. Piper

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/01 4:21:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< Seriously, though, giving character and will, sentient motivation, to a

part

of our brains that we barely understand, to explain away our cognitive

concious behavior is desperate grasping at anything, anything, to avoid

responsibilty for your own behavior. The Son of Sam would have been prou >>

It is also anti-intellectual, one of our favourite characterisitics of AA.

Avoiding responsibility for your behavior --- I'm not sure that is the

salient characteristic of any system that does what you so eloquently

describe above. While people are feverishly trying to understand the reward

systems in neural networks of the brain to give us real data to work with in

combatting compulsive behavior, we have short-sheeters ( I don't even know

what I mean by that) encouraging people not to think.

If anything, people fighting to combat powerful urges, whatever the

combination of variables of causality, have feelings of responsibility about

their behaviour to the extremes of guilt, blame and shame. Some of the

writings on obsessive thought (Wegner comes to mind) are interesting. The

more you try to suppress the thought of something you DONT want to do, the

stronger it becomes. Piper

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/01 4:21:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< Seriously, though, giving character and will, sentient motivation, to a

part

of our brains that we barely understand, to explain away our cognitive

concious behavior is desperate grasping at anything, anything, to avoid

responsibilty for your own behavior. The Son of Sam would have been prou >>

It is also anti-intellectual, one of our favourite characterisitics of AA.

Avoiding responsibility for your behavior --- I'm not sure that is the

salient characteristic of any system that does what you so eloquently

describe above. While people are feverishly trying to understand the reward

systems in neural networks of the brain to give us real data to work with in

combatting compulsive behavior, we have short-sheeters ( I don't even know

what I mean by that) encouraging people not to think.

If anything, people fighting to combat powerful urges, whatever the

combination of variables of causality, have feelings of responsibility about

their behaviour to the extremes of guilt, blame and shame. Some of the

writings on obsessive thought (Wegner comes to mind) are interesting. The

more you try to suppress the thought of something you DONT want to do, the

stronger it becomes. Piper

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/01 4:25:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,

CarolFrancey@... writes:

<< Actually you are right the lymbic system can only send a message. " You're

hungry, sexually interested, salivating for drugs, in need of air, etc. " YOU

have to decide to move your muscles to pinch your butt so you don't fart.

You

have to decide to move your body to feed the appetite and you can decide to

not feed any appetite and feel the discomfort and still not feed it.

You haven't read the book.

Carol

>>

You haven't studied the brain. Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/01 11:16:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< .When ya figure out that ya don't wanna be hit in the head anymore, you

will either quit what yer doing or move down the self help lottery to find

someone who will, lie and coddle ya into believing in them and thier

ego...... Oh, and it will only cost 5 bucks a whack. I wouldn't wanna be

acused of proffiteering.

Steve >>

HaHa Steve. Is this a law-encorcement type theory? lol.

Essentially, I agree. It reminds me of one of AAs little sayings about

willpower. ever tried to stop diarrhea? Although we know they are bonkers

when it comes to deciding to strip us of personal power, the mechanisms of

compulsion (brain) are intricate and baffling only in that we don't yet

understand how these neural networks work. So let''s see the choices are, 1)

use and suffer all the wonderful consequences 2) sell yer soul to da devil

3)______ 4)__________ 5_________???? Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/01 11:16:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< .When ya figure out that ya don't wanna be hit in the head anymore, you

will either quit what yer doing or move down the self help lottery to find

someone who will, lie and coddle ya into believing in them and thier

ego...... Oh, and it will only cost 5 bucks a whack. I wouldn't wanna be

acused of proffiteering.

Steve >>

HaHa Steve. Is this a law-encorcement type theory? lol.

Essentially, I agree. It reminds me of one of AAs little sayings about

willpower. ever tried to stop diarrhea? Although we know they are bonkers

when it comes to deciding to strip us of personal power, the mechanisms of

compulsion (brain) are intricate and baffling only in that we don't yet

understand how these neural networks work. So let''s see the choices are, 1)

use and suffer all the wonderful consequences 2) sell yer soul to da devil

3)______ 4)__________ 5_________???? Piper.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/9/01 11:16:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< .When ya figure out that ya don't wanna be hit in the head anymore, you

will either quit what yer doing or move down the self help lottery to find

someone who will, lie and coddle ya into believing in them and thier

ego...... Oh, and it will only cost 5 bucks a whack. I wouldn't wanna be

acused of proffiteering.

Steve >>

HaHa Steve. Is this a law-encorcement type theory? lol.

Essentially, I agree. It reminds me of one of AAs little sayings about

willpower. ever tried to stop diarrhea? Although we know they are bonkers

when it comes to deciding to strip us of personal power, the mechanisms of

compulsion (brain) are intricate and baffling only in that we don't yet

understand how these neural networks work. So let''s see the choices are, 1)

use and suffer all the wonderful consequences 2) sell yer soul to da devil

3)______ 4)__________ 5_________???? Piper.

[Guest guest]

Piper,

I see that there more than just the two choices that you see......

Steve

[Guest guest]

Piper,

I see that there more than just the two choices that you see......

Steve

[Guest guest]

Piper,

I see that there more than just the two choices that you see......

Steve

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/11/01 4:49:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< Piper,

I see that there more than just the two choices that you see......

Steve

>>

Steve, I would be grateful if you would list them LOLOLOLOLIOL.

Piper<<leafing through all possible options notebook with hair standing on

end.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/11/01 4:49:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< Piper,

I see that there more than just the two choices that you see......

Steve

>>

Steve, I would be grateful if you would list them LOLOLOLOLIOL.

Piper<<leafing through all possible options notebook with hair standing on

end.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/11/01 4:49:29 PM Pacific Standard Time,

sparkydawg69@... writes:

<< Piper,

I see that there more than just the two choices that you see......

Steve

>>

Steve, I would be grateful if you would list them LOLOLOLOLIOL.

Piper<<leafing through all possible options notebook with hair standing on

end.

[Guest guest]

Piper,

How about exercise of will ............You don't have to do anything that you don't want to do except die, and that too can be effected by an act of will like speeding up the process.

Also, I think there may be a Tibetan monk or two that could show you that even diarhea can be stopped by force of will. Mind over body. Of course to accomplish this you must first believe that it is possible to do so.........

Perception .......

steve

[Guest guest]

Piper and All,

        <<Steve, a book you may be interested in is by Damasio and is entitled

Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain.  He writes very passionately and this is not dull reading.  Essentially, there is no separation between mind and body.  I think you would enjoy this.  Piper.>>

I have my own brain, but thank you for the suggestion.

Steve

[Guest guest]

Piper and All,

        <<Steve, a book you may be interested in is by Damasio and is entitled

Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain.  He writes very passionately and this is not dull reading.  Essentially, there is no separation between mind and body.  I think you would enjoy this.  Piper.>>

I have my own brain, but thank you for the suggestion.

Steve

[Guest guest]

Piper and All,

        <<Steve, a book you may be interested in is by Damasio and is entitled

Descartes' Error: Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain.  He writes very passionately and this is not dull reading.  Essentially, there is no separation between mind and body.  I think you would enjoy this.  Piper.>>

I have my own brain, but thank you for the suggestion.

Steve

[Guest guest]

For what its worth you don't repress it rather you recognize it hence Addictive

Voice Recognition Technique. But then you aren't aware of the technique.

Carol

12-step-freeegroups wrote:

>

> In a message dated 1/9/01 4:21:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,

> sparkydawg69@... writes:

>

> << Seriously, though,  giving character and will, sentient motivation, to a

> part

>  of our brains that we barely understand, to explain away our cognitive

>  concious behavior is desperate grasping at anything, anything, to avoid

>  responsibilty for your own behavior. The Son of Sam would have been prou >>

>

> It is also anti-intellectual, one of our favourite characterisitics of AA.  

> Avoiding responsibility for your behavior --- I'm not sure that is the

> salient characteristic of any system that does what you so eloquently

> describe above.  While people are feverishly trying to understand the reward

> systems in neural networks of the brain to give us real data to work with in

> combatting compulsive behavior, we have short-sheeters ( I don't even know

> what I mean by that) encouraging people not to think.  

>

> If anything, people  fighting to combat powerful urges, whatever the

> combination of variables of causality, have feelings of responsibility about

> their behaviour to the extremes of guilt, blame and shame.  Some of the

> writings on obsessive thought (Wegner comes to mind) are interesting.  The

> more you try to suppress the thought of something you DONT want to do, the

> stronger it becomes.  Piper

>

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