Re: RDwoney Jr., GWBush

[Guest guest]

Very eloquent Pete. Piper.

[Guest guest]

Very eloquent Pete. Piper.

[Guest guest]

Very eloquent Pete. Piper.

[Guest guest]

.. It makes sense to me; if a person is so powerless over

their behavior that they endanger the lives of others, it follows that

they ought to be incarcerated indefinitely, although perhaps the

institution should be nominated a hospital and not a prison.

I kind of have to agree with this although in my own case of getting a DUI, I had been out drinking with a date and he had taken me home and left. I remember getting into my nite shirt and getting into bed and the next thing I remember is being stuck in a ditch on the side of a country road at 3 AM with a cop knocking on my window. I dont remember putting on my shorts, or locking my door to my house or opening the garage door or anything! I also have a girlfirend that had a similar situatuion, she had had some people over to her house after the bars closed one nite and they all left her place around 3 AM and she put her pajamas on and went to bed, the next thing she remembers is 3 hours later being in her car, which was laying on its side in the middle of the median of a highway, still in her pajamas. She had apparently sideswiped some old mans car and I even saw pictures of the dent in his car, it was!

n't even hit hard enough for the inside of the car to be caved in, the outside of the car was caved in maybe a couple of inches. Anyway, the man and his wife had been going to the airport to catch a flight and she had sideswiped him, she hit him hard enough that his airbag inflated. He insisted to the paramedics that he was fine and that he just wanted to get to the airport to go ahead and catch his flight, but the paramedics insisted, because of his advanced age, to take him to the hospital for observation. He suffered a heart attack three hours later and died, not from any injuries from the wreck, because there were none, but because he had a bad heart to begin with. She was sentenced to 20 YEARS in the state women's prison. She was finally released after 2.5 years and is now on probation for the remainder of her sentence. She doesn't remember getting into her car either, she hadnt even chang!

ed clothes, she was still in her [pajamas when she woke up.

Sue A

[Guest guest]

Ironically, Bill wouldundoubtedly consider him an honorary AA; GW Bush has said that he*found God* when he quit drinking, and hence his recovery is highlycomparable to a classic 12-step one.

"It's true Bush is a religious man. He's also a politician who needed to shore up the religious Right of the Republican party in a race against, among others, the very (religiously) conservative Pat Buchanan who at times was polling as much as 5%. The "found God" aspect of his story is true, but also partly PR to energize the Republican base. I don't believe he's a zealot. W. was at a point in his life where he decided to grow up and be a responsible adult. When you're a Texan, this is done by going to church every Sunday at 9 a.m. and reading the Bible.

I think that what separates W's story from a 12-step story is he said he found God after he quit drinking, which is different from AA's idea that an alcoholic can only stay quit because he's found God."

Indeed, for all we know, Bush mayactually be a good AA, keeping his anonymity of his membership in thepublic media, pained to see so many of his colleagues not realize!

"I could maybe see Bush keeping his anonymity intact, but those who would know in the program could never keep their mouths shut. Also, the press would somehow get the message out, even if they didn't come out and say he's a member of AA. They hate Republicans, particularly Republicans of his pedigree.

On a separate note, I've notices some unease about Bush and his faith-based programs and I think it deservers a few words: Bush's faith-based programs are an attempt to get the Federal government out of people's private lives. He (rightly) believes that much of what the government does could be done more efficiently and with better resultes, at the private level. I understand many on this list are uneasy with the idea of government working with churches in any way, but I don't see this as an attempt to force Christianity (Or the 12 steps) down anyone's throat.

Nate

[Guest guest]

>

> " It's true Bush is a religious man. He's also a politician who

>needed to shore up the religious Right of the Republican party in a

>race against, among others, the very (religiously) conservative Pat

>Buchanan who at times was polling as much as 5%. The " found God "

>aspect of his story is true, but also partly PR to energize the

>Republican base. I don't believe he's a zealot. W. was at a

>point in his life where he decided to grow up and be a responsible

>adult. When you're a Texan, this is done by going to church every

>Sunday at 9 a.m. and reading the Bible.

Nate,

Regardless of whether Bush is a religious zealot or no, he has

appointed religious zealots like Ashcroft and Tommy to

positions of power. Bush has endorsed the ideas of Marvin Olasky who

coined the term " compassionate conservative. " Olasky is opposed to

the separation of church and state and is a sort of fellow-travellr

of the Christian Reconstructionists, a powerful movement in

evangelical circles which seeks nothing less than a theocracy in the

US.

> On a separate note, I've notices some unease about Bush and his

>faith-based programs and I think it deservers a few words: Bush's

>faith-based programs are an attempt to get the Federal government

>out of people's private lives. He (rightly) believes that much of

>what the government does could be done more efficiently and with

>better resultes, at the private level. I understand many on this

>list are uneasy with the idea of government working with churches in

>any way, but I don't see this as an attempt to force Christianity

(Or the 12 steps) down anyone's throat.

I don't see how you can say this. Faith based services would mean tax

money spent for prosletizing. Texas has separate,easier rules for

the Church-based " treatment " --in fact a separate government agency.

It the idea is that private groups can do a better job, let them do

it, don't provide tax dollars to push religion. In fact, Olasky and

other advocates of " compassionate conservatism " have stated quite

clearly that they do not want faith-based services judged by the same

criteria as secular programs. They believe that the real issue is

peoples souls.

[Guest guest]

Regardless of whether Bush is a religious zealot or no, he has appointed religious zealots like Ashcroft and Tommy to positions of power.

Ashcroft is very religous. I don't know about the zealot part. But Ashcroft is a good man who will uphold the law. He'll even uphold the laws he doesn't agree with, something Liberals simply can't fathom. To them a law is only worthy to be enforced if they agree with it. What's going on with Ashcroft is shameful. He is not a racist by any stretch. It's the same old Liberal truck of repeat the lie until people believe it. What evidence is there? He opposed the nomination of a black judge. What you don't hear is how many black judges he appointed as Gov. of Missouri. A lot of people opposed the nomination of Clarence . Are they racist, too? The NCAA gave him an "F" in race relations. Give me a break! Why not at least a D? You'd think an F would be reserved for a KKK lynchman who reads "Mein Kamp" before breakfast every morning. So much for the integrity of the NCAA.

About Tommy . How do you get he's a religious zealot? Why do you think he's even religous? I don't see evidence of that. It makes me wonder: Do you oppose religious zealots, or are people religious zealots because you oppose them. I think the latter is true. But don't feel bad, you're in the same boat with a lot of people.

Bush has endorsed the ideas of Marvin Olasky who coined the term "compassionate conservative." Olasky is opposed to the separation of church and state and is a sort of fellow-travellr of the Christian Reconstructionists, a powerful movement in evangelical circles which seeks nothing less than a theocracy in the US.

I don't understand your reasoning. Are you saying that because Bush used "Compassionate Conservatism" in his platform, that makes him a puppet of Olasky? Let's focus on Bush here.

Nate

[Guest guest]

> " I could maybe see Bush keeping his anonymity intact, but those

>who would know in the program could never keep their mouths shut.

>Also, the press would somehow get the message out, even if they

>didn't come out and say he's a member of AA. They hate Republicans,

>particularly Republicans of his pedigree.

I'm well aware of this Nate -I didnt suggest it as a serious

possibility. However it was a possibility that the steppers hadnt even

considered, which I consider very siginificant. It shows that the

claim abt anonymity now is hooey; they expect public figures,

especially those with influence like Bush, to declare they are XA.

Another irony of course is that maybe he hasnt been outed because his

home group are *also* very devout!

> On a separate note, I've notices some unease about Bush and his

>faith-based programs and I think it deservers a few words: Bush's

>faith-based programs are an attempt to get the Federal government out

>of people's private lives. He (rightly) believes that much of what

>the government does could be done more efficiently and with better

>resultes, at the private level. I understand many on this list are

>uneasy with the idea of government working with churches in any way,

>but I don't see this as an attempt to force Christianity (Or the 12

>steps) down anyone's throat.

It will be if attendance at these things is made compulsory. The way I

see it, ppl will be forected to attend these things *or* XA, and they

will say its ok becasue XA is their as an alternative and " isnt

religious " . It can only make religious freedom from XA harder to

achieve imo.

HP

>

> Nate

[Guest guest]

Another irony of course is that maybe he hasnt been outed because his home group are *also* very devout!

That's very possible. There are elite groups out there (lawyers for lawyers, for example) and in the case of a president's son it's not too hard to picture a special forces AA group forming with his anonymity priority #1. But after thinking about this some more today, I rstill don't believe he's AA. For starters, he was asked in an interview if he thought he was an alcoholic and he said No. I find it very hard to believe any AA would deny this, even when running for President. Joe AA would talk about how it's okay to be an alcoholic.

The biggest reason I don't think he's AA is that at the time he was having his troubles his, his dad was VP and in a position to be President of the United States himself. I'm sure he thought about the political prospects of his sons as well and it's not too far-fetched to believe that AA was not an option any member of that family looking to be the greatest political family in the history of the world. (Which, in fact, it has become.) Great lengths would have been taken to keep W. away from the "P" word. (Powerless) It doesn't focus group well with either men or women.

Nate

[Guest guest]

Another irony of course is that maybe he hasnt been outed because his home group are *also* very devout!

That's very possible. There are elite groups out there (lawyers for lawyers, for example) and in the case of a president's son it's not too hard to picture a special forces AA group forming with his anonymity priority #1. But after thinking about this some more today, I rstill don't believe he's AA. For starters, he was asked in an interview if he thought he was an alcoholic and he said No. I find it very hard to believe any AA would deny this, even when running for President. Joe AA would talk about how it's okay to be an alcoholic.

The biggest reason I don't think he's AA is that at the time he was having his troubles his, his dad was VP and in a position to be President of the United States himself. I'm sure he thought about the political prospects of his sons as well and it's not too far-fetched to believe that AA was not an option any member of that family looking to be the greatest political family in the history of the world. (Which, in fact, it has become.) Great lengths would have been taken to keep W. away from the "P" word. (Powerless) It doesn't focus group well with either men or women.

Nate

[Guest guest]

Another irony of course is that maybe he hasnt been outed because his home group are *also* very devout!

That's very possible. There are elite groups out there (lawyers for lawyers, for example) and in the case of a president's son it's not too hard to picture a special forces AA group forming with his anonymity priority #1. But after thinking about this some more today, I rstill don't believe he's AA. For starters, he was asked in an interview if he thought he was an alcoholic and he said No. I find it very hard to believe any AA would deny this, even when running for President. Joe AA would talk about how it's okay to be an alcoholic.

The biggest reason I don't think he's AA is that at the time he was having his troubles his, his dad was VP and in a position to be President of the United States himself. I'm sure he thought about the political prospects of his sons as well and it's not too far-fetched to believe that AA was not an option any member of that family looking to be the greatest political family in the history of the world. (Which, in fact, it has become.) Great lengths would have been taken to keep W. away from the "P" word. (Powerless) It doesn't focus group well with either men or women.

Nate

[Guest guest]

> I'm sure he thought about

>the political prospects of his sons as well and it's not too

>far-fetched to believe that AA was not an option any member of that

>family looking to be the greatest political family in the history of

>the world. (Which, in fact, it has become.) Great lengths would have

>been taken to keep W. away from the " P " word. (Powerless) It doesn't

>focus group well with either men or women.

Ah me, the Bush's have overtaken the Kennedys. No girls in submerged

automobiles for them, but by all accounts one of dubya's daughters

might one day drive one into a lake all by herself. I remember during

all the election farrago that I was amazed at all these Bushies that

kept popping up all over the place who had a direct influence on the

outcome. I generally find offensive " redneck " jokes that

amongst other things portray white southerners as profligately

incestuous and everybody being related to everyone else, but when it

came to the Bush Klan, oops, I mean clan, it looked like it was

ringing true!

HP.

[Guest guest]

> I'm sure he thought about

>the political prospects of his sons as well and it's not too

>far-fetched to believe that AA was not an option any member of that

>family looking to be the greatest political family in the history of

>the world. (Which, in fact, it has become.) Great lengths would have

>been taken to keep W. away from the " P " word. (Powerless) It doesn't

>focus group well with either men or women.

Ah me, the Bush's have overtaken the Kennedys. No girls in submerged

automobiles for them, but by all accounts one of dubya's daughters

might one day drive one into a lake all by herself. I remember during

all the election farrago that I was amazed at all these Bushies that

kept popping up all over the place who had a direct influence on the

outcome. I generally find offensive " redneck " jokes that

amongst other things portray white southerners as profligately

incestuous and everybody being related to everyone else, but when it

came to the Bush Klan, oops, I mean clan, it looked like it was

ringing true!

HP.

[Guest guest]

> I'm sure he thought about

>the political prospects of his sons as well and it's not too

>far-fetched to believe that AA was not an option any member of that

>family looking to be the greatest political family in the history of

>the world. (Which, in fact, it has become.) Great lengths would have

>been taken to keep W. away from the " P " word. (Powerless) It doesn't

>focus group well with either men or women.

Ah me, the Bush's have overtaken the Kennedys. No girls in submerged

automobiles for them, but by all accounts one of dubya's daughters

might one day drive one into a lake all by herself. I remember during

all the election farrago that I was amazed at all these Bushies that

kept popping up all over the place who had a direct influence on the

outcome. I generally find offensive " redneck " jokes that

amongst other things portray white southerners as profligately

incestuous and everybody being related to everyone else, but when it

came to the Bush Klan, oops, I mean clan, it looked like it was

ringing true!

HP.

[Guest guest]

I generally find offensive "redneck" jokes that amongst other things portray white southerners as profligately incestuous and everybody being related to everyone else, but when it came to the Bush Klan, oops, I mean clan, it looked like it was ringing true!

Pete - It is fun to bash politicians, and they bring it on themselves simply by having the ego to run for public office. But in the current political climate it's crucial to stick to the facts and steer clear of false political stereotypes. Liberals are so scared of the Republicans these days they're quickly turning racism into the newest version of McCarthyism, which was a newer version of the Inquisition. They know but will never admit that African Americans are getting wealthier and wealthier and might just be interested in a tax cut. And the idea of W trying to heal race relations in the country scares the hell out of them. If you have information about the Bush clan being racist, I'd love to hear it. Sorry for getting all serious on you but it's soooo important to correct these misconceptions wherever one sees them. If not people start to believe them. Herber Bush helped raise money for the United Negro College Fund before it was cool to do so. (It's still a favorite cause of the Bush family) He also nominated the first Black Supreme Court Justice, Clarence and stuck behind him through thick and thin while he was vigorously opposed by even the affirmative action crowd and the NAACP, all because he's a conservative. (I thought the NAACP wanted to advance colored people.)

W. Rice has just nominated Condaleeza(sp?) Rice as his National Security Advisor and Colin is the new Secretary of State. By my count the 3 highest office holding Black Americans in this country are there because of the Bush's.

On a separate note, what's with the new "HP" closing?

Nate

[Guest guest]

I generally find offensive "redneck" jokes that amongst other things portray white southerners as profligately incestuous and everybody being related to everyone else, but when it came to the Bush Klan, oops, I mean clan, it looked like it was ringing true!

Pete - It is fun to bash politicians, and they bring it on themselves simply by having the ego to run for public office. But in the current political climate it's crucial to stick to the facts and steer clear of false political stereotypes. Liberals are so scared of the Republicans these days they're quickly turning racism into the newest version of McCarthyism, which was a newer version of the Inquisition. They know but will never admit that African Americans are getting wealthier and wealthier and might just be interested in a tax cut. And the idea of W trying to heal race relations in the country scares the hell out of them. If you have information about the Bush clan being racist, I'd love to hear it. Sorry for getting all serious on you but it's soooo important to correct these misconceptions wherever one sees them. If not people start to believe them. Herber Bush helped raise money for the United Negro College Fund before it was cool to do so. (It's still a favorite cause of the Bush family) He also nominated the first Black Supreme Court Justice, Clarence and stuck behind him through thick and thin while he was vigorously opposed by even the affirmative action crowd and the NAACP, all because he's a conservative. (I thought the NAACP wanted to advance colored people.)

W. Rice has just nominated Condaleeza(sp?) Rice as his National Security Advisor and Colin is the new Secretary of State. By my count the 3 highest office holding Black Americans in this country are there because of the Bush's.

On a separate note, what's with the new "HP" closing?

Nate

[Guest guest]

I generally find offensive "redneck" jokes that amongst other things portray white southerners as profligately incestuous and everybody being related to everyone else, but when it came to the Bush Klan, oops, I mean clan, it looked like it was ringing true!

Pete - It is fun to bash politicians, and they bring it on themselves simply by having the ego to run for public office. But in the current political climate it's crucial to stick to the facts and steer clear of false political stereotypes. Liberals are so scared of the Republicans these days they're quickly turning racism into the newest version of McCarthyism, which was a newer version of the Inquisition. They know but will never admit that African Americans are getting wealthier and wealthier and might just be interested in a tax cut. And the idea of W trying to heal race relations in the country scares the hell out of them. If you have information about the Bush clan being racist, I'd love to hear it. Sorry for getting all serious on you but it's soooo important to correct these misconceptions wherever one sees them. If not people start to believe them. Herber Bush helped raise money for the United Negro College Fund before it was cool to do so. (It's still a favorite cause of the Bush family) He also nominated the first Black Supreme Court Justice, Clarence and stuck behind him through thick and thin while he was vigorously opposed by even the affirmative action crowd and the NAACP, all because he's a conservative. (I thought the NAACP wanted to advance colored people.)

W. Rice has just nominated Condaleeza(sp?) Rice as his National Security Advisor and Colin is the new Secretary of State. By my count the 3 highest office holding Black Americans in this country are there because of the Bush's.

On a separate note, what's with the new "HP" closing?

Nate

[Guest guest]

Hey Nate

I admit to having no grounds at all for hinting the Bushies are

racist, it was just too good a pun to miss.

During the Gulf War I had a fantasy abt writing a Left Wing Satire abt

it. GB Snr calls a war meeting in the Oval Office and mistakes Colin

in civvies for the janitor. He thereafter refers to him as

" Colon " all the time. Major appears led on a lead by the

American ambassador. Lefties here would've loved it!

> On a separate note, what's with the new " HP " closing?

Nothing really. I sometimes use the screen names Henry VIII or

BluffKingHal (which ppl always think is a poker nnickname but was an

actual nickname of Henry VIII). Since my email gives me name as ,

I sometimes sign on the Alcoholism forum as H/P to annoy the steppers.

After Pipercub started using " P. " I thought I'd do it here too.

HP.

[Guest guest]

Hey Nate

I admit to having no grounds at all for hinting the Bushies are

racist, it was just too good a pun to miss.

During the Gulf War I had a fantasy abt writing a Left Wing Satire abt

it. GB Snr calls a war meeting in the Oval Office and mistakes Colin

in civvies for the janitor. He thereafter refers to him as

" Colon " all the time. Major appears led on a lead by the

American ambassador. Lefties here would've loved it!

> On a separate note, what's with the new " HP " closing?

Nothing really. I sometimes use the screen names Henry VIII or

BluffKingHal (which ppl always think is a poker nnickname but was an

actual nickname of Henry VIII). Since my email gives me name as ,

I sometimes sign on the Alcoholism forum as H/P to annoy the steppers.

After Pipercub started using " P. " I thought I'd do it here too.

HP.

[Guest guest]

Hey Nate

I admit to having no grounds at all for hinting the Bushies are

racist, it was just too good a pun to miss.

During the Gulf War I had a fantasy abt writing a Left Wing Satire abt

it. GB Snr calls a war meeting in the Oval Office and mistakes Colin

in civvies for the janitor. He thereafter refers to him as

" Colon " all the time. Major appears led on a lead by the

American ambassador. Lefties here would've loved it!

> On a separate note, what's with the new " HP " closing?

Nothing really. I sometimes use the screen names Henry VIII or

BluffKingHal (which ppl always think is a poker nnickname but was an

actual nickname of Henry VIII). Since my email gives me name as ,

I sometimes sign on the Alcoholism forum as H/P to annoy the steppers.

After Pipercub started using " P. " I thought I'd do it here too.

HP.

[Guest guest]

During the Gulf War I had a fantasy abt writing a Left Wing Satire abt it. GB Snr calls a war meeting in the Oval Office and mistakes Colin in civvies for the janitor. He thereafter refers to him as "Colon" all the time. Major appears led on a lead by the American ambassador. Lefties here would've loved it!

What the Lefties here are going to love is when Tony Blair's first official visit. How could he be in Washington without stopping to pay his old buddy Bill Clinton a visit, who will only be living around the corner. Our press is going to eat that up. Is there a limit on the length of time one can serve as Prime Minister?

A question: What's the ADD_MED discussion you talk about. Attention Deficit Disorder?

Nate

[Guest guest]

During the Gulf War I had a fantasy abt writing a Left Wing Satire abt it. GB Snr calls a war meeting in the Oval Office and mistakes Colin in civvies for the janitor. He thereafter refers to him as "Colon" all the time. Major appears led on a lead by the American ambassador. Lefties here would've loved it!

What the Lefties here are going to love is when Tony Blair's first official visit. How could he be in Washington without stopping to pay his old buddy Bill Clinton a visit, who will only be living around the corner. Our press is going to eat that up. Is there a limit on the length of time one can serve as Prime Minister?

A question: What's the ADD_MED discussion you talk about. Attention Deficit Disorder?

Nate

[Guest guest]

During the Gulf War I had a fantasy abt writing a Left Wing Satire abt it. GB Snr calls a war meeting in the Oval Office and mistakes Colin in civvies for the janitor. He thereafter refers to him as "Colon" all the time. Major appears led on a lead by the American ambassador. Lefties here would've loved it!

What the Lefties here are going to love is when Tony Blair's first official visit. How could he be in Washington without stopping to pay his old buddy Bill Clinton a visit, who will only be living around the corner. Our press is going to eat that up. Is there a limit on the length of time one can serve as Prime Minister?

A question: What's the ADD_MED discussion you talk about. Attention Deficit Disorder?

Nate

[Guest guest]

In discussing whether Bush is an AA or not, and my thoughts that he's not because it would have hurt his and his family's political prospects, I thought of something I once read.

In The Manticore, here's what the Canadian author on Davies says about Alcoholics Anonymous. The central character is a Canadian lawyer from a rich and powerful family who is undergoing Jungian analysis in Zurich, responding to the question, "What made you think you needed an analyst, instead of a cure for alcoholics?"

"Because I do not think of myself as an alcoholic. To be an alcoholic is a middle-class predicament. My reputation in the country where I live is such that I would cut an absurd figure in Alcoholics Anonymous; if a couple of the brethren came to minister to me, they would be afraid of me; anyhow I don't go on the rampage or pass out or make a notable jackass of myself - I just drink a good deal and talk rather frankly. If I were to go out with another AA to cope with some fellow who was on the bottle, the sight of me would terrify him; he would think I was his lawyer and the police were coming with the wagon.....No, I am not an alcoholic, for alcoholism is not my disease, but my symptom."

on Davies is also the writer who said wrote in a different novel "Like many who are losing their grip on reality, he mistook it for a new wisdom in himself." A very keen observation, I thought.

Nate

[Guest guest]

In discussing whether Bush is an AA or not, and my thoughts that he's not because it would have hurt his and his family's political prospects, I thought of something I once read.

In The Manticore, here's what the Canadian author on Davies says about Alcoholics Anonymous. The central character is a Canadian lawyer from a rich and powerful family who is undergoing Jungian analysis in Zurich, responding to the question, "What made you think you needed an analyst, instead of a cure for alcoholics?"

"Because I do not think of myself as an alcoholic. To be an alcoholic is a middle-class predicament. My reputation in the country where I live is such that I would cut an absurd figure in Alcoholics Anonymous; if a couple of the brethren came to minister to me, they would be afraid of me; anyhow I don't go on the rampage or pass out or make a notable jackass of myself - I just drink a good deal and talk rather frankly. If I were to go out with another AA to cope with some fellow who was on the bottle, the sight of me would terrify him; he would think I was his lawyer and the police were coming with the wagon.....No, I am not an alcoholic, for alcoholism is not my disease, but my symptom."

on Davies is also the writer who said wrote in a different novel "Like many who are losing their grip on reality, he mistook it for a new wisdom in himself." A very keen observation, I thought.

Nate