Re: long story - talking to someone about Autism

January 3, 2003

The one

> thing

> > that is sticking in my craw is that every time I read about

> Asperger's

> > syndrome, I think about my youngest nephew. I don't know if

> Asperger's

> > is correct or not, but I'm virtually convinced that my nephew is on

> the

> > spectrum somewhere and considering that he never had a speech delay

> and

> > definitely has above average intelligence, I thought that one

> seemed the

> > most possible. All the sudden now I'm looking back on his whole

> life

> > and wondering about what it might have been like if this had been

> > pursued a long time ago.

Well, no, I don't think you are off base. When I was in your position, with

a child newly dx'ed with autism, I too kept reading about autism and

Asperger Syndrome and then looking at my oldest son who, after a good deal

of pushing on my part, was finally dx'ed with AS at the ripe old age of 14.

Now I'm not by any means saying that I

> think

> > his molesting my niece has anything to do with Asperger's, because

> I

> > don't.

No. And I have never heard of child molesting being any indication of AS,

but there is a lot going on in this child's life and it sounds as if there

is a basic lack of guidance to say the least.

I know that other factors have come into play here. (He

> > apparently got into porn on the internet according to my SIL)

Great.

> Anyway,

> > it's been bugging me and bugging me and I finally wrote my SIL a

> letter

> > and sent her Tony Attwood's book. I'm going to include the letter

> in

> > another post because I would like some feedback about it.

> >

> > I'm sorry this has become such a novel, and I don't even know if a

> post

> > this long can be sent into the list but I really just needed to get

> it

> > off my shoulders. I hope it's not upsetting to anyone. I also

> hope

> > nobody on this list knows either her or me in real life and can put

> all

> > the pieces together! :/ A lot of our friends don't know all the

> > details and I don't want to be a gossiper about it. We haven't

> spoken

> > in months, but I heard from a mutual friend that she was extremely

> > pissed off that I wrote her about it at all, and just because my

> son was

> > Autistic, who did I think I was suggesting that anything was wrong

> with

> > her son. " There is nothing wrong with her son " says the lady who

> is

> > the epitome of the saying that DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt.

Well, it sounds to me as if a great deal is wrong with her son. But perhaps

she would take it easier if it were not all her fault?

> >

> > OK, whew! So - from all of this, do you think I was wrong to send

> the

> > letter? Do you think I'm off base in suspecting that my nephew is

> on

> > the Spectrum? If you want to ask me any questions about him, I

> will

> > answer them as best I can remember about his behaviors over the

> years.

> >

What exactly made you think of AS? Not being social, obviously, though

frequently AS people want to be social, but they are so hopelessly inept at

it that they aren't very good at it.

Salli

January 3, 2003

The one

> thing

> > that is sticking in my craw is that every time I read about

> Asperger's

> > syndrome, I think about my youngest nephew. I don't know if

> Asperger's

> > is correct or not, but I'm virtually convinced that my nephew is on

> the

> > spectrum somewhere and considering that he never had a speech delay

> and

> > definitely has above average intelligence, I thought that one

> seemed the

> > most possible. All the sudden now I'm looking back on his whole

> life

> > and wondering about what it might have been like if this had been

> > pursued a long time ago.

Well, no, I don't think you are off base. When I was in your position, with

a child newly dx'ed with autism, I too kept reading about autism and

Asperger Syndrome and then looking at my oldest son who, after a good deal

of pushing on my part, was finally dx'ed with AS at the ripe old age of 14.

Now I'm not by any means saying that I

> think

> > his molesting my niece has anything to do with Asperger's, because

> I

> > don't.

No. And I have never heard of child molesting being any indication of AS,

but there is a lot going on in this child's life and it sounds as if there

is a basic lack of guidance to say the least.

I know that other factors have come into play here. (He

> > apparently got into porn on the internet according to my SIL)

Great.

> Anyway,

> > it's been bugging me and bugging me and I finally wrote my SIL a

> letter

> > and sent her Tony Attwood's book. I'm going to include the letter

> in

> > another post because I would like some feedback about it.

> >

> > I'm sorry this has become such a novel, and I don't even know if a

> post

> > this long can be sent into the list but I really just needed to get

> it

> > off my shoulders. I hope it's not upsetting to anyone. I also

> hope

> > nobody on this list knows either her or me in real life and can put

> all

> > the pieces together! :/ A lot of our friends don't know all the

> > details and I don't want to be a gossiper about it. We haven't

> spoken

> > in months, but I heard from a mutual friend that she was extremely

> > pissed off that I wrote her about it at all, and just because my

> son was

> > Autistic, who did I think I was suggesting that anything was wrong

> with

> > her son. " There is nothing wrong with her son " says the lady who

> is

> > the epitome of the saying that DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt.

Well, it sounds to me as if a great deal is wrong with her son. But perhaps

she would take it easier if it were not all her fault?

> >

> > OK, whew! So - from all of this, do you think I was wrong to send

> the

> > letter? Do you think I'm off base in suspecting that my nephew is

> on

> > the Spectrum? If you want to ask me any questions about him, I

> will

> > answer them as best I can remember about his behaviors over the

> years.

> >

What exactly made you think of AS? Not being social, obviously, though

frequently AS people want to be social, but they are so hopelessly inept at

it that they aren't very good at it.

Salli

January 3, 2003

The one

> thing

> > that is sticking in my craw is that every time I read about

> Asperger's

> > syndrome, I think about my youngest nephew. I don't know if

> Asperger's

> > is correct or not, but I'm virtually convinced that my nephew is on

> the

> > spectrum somewhere and considering that he never had a speech delay

> and

> > definitely has above average intelligence, I thought that one

> seemed the

> > most possible. All the sudden now I'm looking back on his whole

> life

> > and wondering about what it might have been like if this had been

> > pursued a long time ago.

Well, no, I don't think you are off base. When I was in your position, with

a child newly dx'ed with autism, I too kept reading about autism and

Asperger Syndrome and then looking at my oldest son who, after a good deal

of pushing on my part, was finally dx'ed with AS at the ripe old age of 14.

Now I'm not by any means saying that I

> think

> > his molesting my niece has anything to do with Asperger's, because

> I

> > don't.

No. And I have never heard of child molesting being any indication of AS,

but there is a lot going on in this child's life and it sounds as if there

is a basic lack of guidance to say the least.

I know that other factors have come into play here. (He

> > apparently got into porn on the internet according to my SIL)

Great.

> Anyway,

> > it's been bugging me and bugging me and I finally wrote my SIL a

> letter

> > and sent her Tony Attwood's book. I'm going to include the letter

> in

> > another post because I would like some feedback about it.

> >

> > I'm sorry this has become such a novel, and I don't even know if a

> post

> > this long can be sent into the list but I really just needed to get

> it

> > off my shoulders. I hope it's not upsetting to anyone. I also

> hope

> > nobody on this list knows either her or me in real life and can put

> all

> > the pieces together! :/ A lot of our friends don't know all the

> > details and I don't want to be a gossiper about it. We haven't

> spoken

> > in months, but I heard from a mutual friend that she was extremely

> > pissed off that I wrote her about it at all, and just because my

> son was

> > Autistic, who did I think I was suggesting that anything was wrong

> with

> > her son. " There is nothing wrong with her son " says the lady who

> is

> > the epitome of the saying that DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt.

Well, it sounds to me as if a great deal is wrong with her son. But perhaps

she would take it easier if it were not all her fault?

> >

> > OK, whew! So - from all of this, do you think I was wrong to send

> the

> > letter? Do you think I'm off base in suspecting that my nephew is

> on

> > the Spectrum? If you want to ask me any questions about him, I

> will

> > answer them as best I can remember about his behaviors over the

> years.

> >

What exactly made you think of AS? Not being social, obviously, though

frequently AS people want to be social, but they are so hopelessly inept at

it that they aren't very good at it.

Salli

January 3, 2003

Karin,

I didn't see the original but I read your post in someone else's reply.

What a story!

My nephew who is now 16 is definitely Asperger's. Even my brother, who was

adamant that his brilliant son was fine, admits that he must be AS, but

refuses to take him for an evaluation. He thinks it will stigmatize him.

Guess what made my brother decide something was wrong?

He bought his son a car -- a convertible. The boy has never driven it and

has no desire to do so. He refuses to get a driver's license. Can you

imagine a 16YO boy doing that? I can't. he has a lot of other problems too,

including no friends.

After I read about hyperlexia, I remembered CY was picking out letters and

numbers from flash cards at 10 months of age. Unlike Boone, he had no speech

delay. he had many, many signs though.

I don't think you're wrong in what you did. Not one bit. Maybe when he turns

16, she'll see things differently.

Sissi

January 3, 2003

Karin,

I didn't see the original but I read your post in someone else's reply.

What a story!

My nephew who is now 16 is definitely Asperger's. Even my brother, who was

adamant that his brilliant son was fine, admits that he must be AS, but

refuses to take him for an evaluation. He thinks it will stigmatize him.

Guess what made my brother decide something was wrong?

He bought his son a car -- a convertible. The boy has never driven it and

has no desire to do so. He refuses to get a driver's license. Can you

imagine a 16YO boy doing that? I can't. he has a lot of other problems too,

including no friends.

After I read about hyperlexia, I remembered CY was picking out letters and

numbers from flash cards at 10 months of age. Unlike Boone, he had no speech

delay. he had many, many signs though.

I don't think you're wrong in what you did. Not one bit. Maybe when he turns

16, she'll see things differently.

Sissi

January 3, 2003

Now the problem is weather or not your SIL cares enough to get something

done. It sounds like she has become somewhat self centered and is trying to

ignore what is going on because she doesn't want to deal with it.

Or, what strikes me as more likely, so hideously depressed that she is

totally immobilized.

Salli

January 3, 2003

Now the problem is weather or not your SIL cares enough to get something

done. It sounds like she has become somewhat self centered and is trying to

ignore what is going on because she doesn't want to deal with it.

Or, what strikes me as more likely, so hideously depressed that she is

totally immobilized.

Salli

January 3, 2003

Karin, I did read your whole post, and I think you did the right

thing. You obviously are very torn about the whole situation and it

would be very selfish of her to not consider your feelings or the

position you were in. I don't know if it'll help or not, it all

depends on her. Good luck. What a horrible and sad mess. Don't

blame yourself.

> I have been wanting to " talk " to y'all for a long time about a

situation

> in my family that has been extremely distressing to me and get your

> input. When Salli's story about her friend with the possibly

autistic

> child came up and the response she had - I think I'm going to

finally

> send this in. I don't think I can possibly type out this entire

story

> but I'll include as much of it as I can. If y'all can stand to

read

> through it all. It sounds like a soap opera I assure you.

>

> My husband's sister and I were always very, very close. In fact we

were

> midwifery partners for several years. Best friends as well as

> sisters-in-law. She had her kids a long time ago - they are now 19

and

> 14. Both are boys. The oldest one is extremely NT - very bright,

very

> social, very well liked. The " golden child " you might say. The 14

year

> old has had the complete opposite life, except for the brightness

part.

> The 14 year old boy is extremely intelligent, probably more so

than

> his older brother. But, ever since that child was a baby he has

had

> soooo many problems. The family (my SIL included) kind of chalked

it

> up to a " bad start " . My SIL was very depressed to be pregnant, did

not

> want another child, has many issues in her past including sexual

abuse

> and lots of problems along those lines. When the youngest boy was

born

> she didn't " bond " with him too well although she really did do her

best

> in trying to be a good Mother to him. He was just a difficult

child to

> mother for one thing. Whereas the first son was so delightful, and

she

> just adored him, the second child was as morose as could be,

completely

> anti-social, strange, a complete " Klingon " to his mother (clinged

on to

> her - she was the only person who could ever hold him, etc.). He

was

> just the neediest child. No one really liked the poor kid. (not

me, I

> loved him because I loved all babies and wanted one so badly and I

often

> babysat both the kids) But for the most part the second child was

just

> very difficult is the only way I can think to say it. He did not

have

> any real apparent developmental delays. But he absolutely hated

people.

> My SIL had already started home-schooling her oldest and by the

time

> the youngest was kindergarten age she just home-schooled him too.

The

> real reason she home-schooled is because she wanted to pursue

Midwifery

> and our schedule was so hectic at that time that she preferred to

stick

> her kids in the back seat of the car with their textbooks and take

them

> all over creation with us then have to be home on time to get them

from

> school and stuff. It wouldn't have mattered because the youngest

would

> never have gone to school - he couldn't have handled it. So,

because of

> this - no " professionals " really ever saw the kids. They rarely

ever

> went to a doctor, definitely not for any well check ups. She did

start

> immunizing the youngest at a few years of age but eventually quit

the

> shots because she thought he was reacting badly to them. At about

3

> years of age the kid became addicted to video games and he still is

to

> this day. He would brag to me that he had played video games for

14

> hours in a day with the rest being spent on eating, sleeping and a

> little bit of school work. So, as the kid aged, he just got

weirder and

> weirder. A lot of the family just blamed it on bad parenting (the

> father, my BIL is pretty much a bump on a log) and my SIL always

jumped

> from one self-interest to another basically trying to escape her

life

> and they blamed it on video games. Eventually the oldest child was

> deemed able to care for the younger one and the boys were left home

> alone quite a lot when the older one turned about 12 (the younger

one

> being about 7 probably). Even though I disapproved of their

upbringing,

> I was never going to say anything to her about it because I felt

> completely unqualified - being childless all this time, and also

she was

> so sensitive about things. And I wasn't completely sure that the

kids

> were really going to turn out that bad.

>

> Jump ahead a few years. At 16 years of age the older boy revealed

that

> he had been doing drugs for several years as well as drinking

heavily.

> He also announced he was moving out on the day he turned 17 to move

in

> with his 20 year old girlfriend. He never has finished school even

> though he is now almost 20 yrs. old. Both boys had gotten quite

far

> behind in their schooling. The last I knew the 14 year old was

about 2

> or 3 years behind in grade. We all felt really terrible about the

> oldest child " flipping out " like that. We did a

family " intervention "

> with all of them and practically begged the older son to go into

rehab

> and for the whole family to go into therapy. They did do this for

a

> couple of sessions. The older kid left the house anyway. At this

point

> I decided I was going to write my SIL a letter about her younger

son. I

> wasn't going to sit by any longer and watch a situation unfold

without

> saying something about it because I had a lot of guilt about

observing

> things in my older nephew that I just brushed off and never

confronted

> her about. So I told her I was really worried about my younger

nephew.

> I thought he was in danger of doing something really bad. I

imagined

> that he might one day end up like those boys who shot up the school

at

> Columbine. He was still very young but really into very violent

video

> games and was so anti-social that that was one of the only things I

> could imagine about him. I also was afraid that he might be

vulnerable

> to male attention in a sexual way if someone approached him because

he

> is very " feminine " acting and his relationship with his father was

> practically nil from what we could see. At this point the kid was

about

> 11 years old when I wrote that letter. She was already pretty

ticked at

> us for the whole family intervention thing and I found out later

that

> she viewed it as us just kicking them when they were down. Which

was

> never, never our intention. Our relationship between herself and

me was

> already becoming much more distant because of this and the fact

that I

> had moved away to another city.

>

> Skip ahead to the next year. When that boy was about 13 my brother

> caught him in the act of molesting his four year old daughter. So,

to

> get the story straight here, my husband's nephew (his sister's

child)

> molested my niece (my brother's child). Prior to this, we had all

been

> a very close family with my brother and his family being very close

to

> my in-laws as well. To say that all Hell broke loose would be a

massive

> understatement. I won't even bother to go into all that happened

as a

> result of that, but suffice it to say that it had been going on a

while,

> my brother and his wife were completely devastated, my SIL & BIL

got

> completely defensive and tried to act like it was just a couple of

kids

> being " curious " with each other. It was nothing like that at all

> considering the age difference, the power difference between the

two (my

> 13 year old nephew was taller than me and about 140 lbs. at least -

my 4

> year old niece was about 35 lbs. and barely out of toddlerhood),

and

> then add to that my niece knew absolutely nothing about sex at that

> point so she was not " curious " . Add to that the fact that most 13

year

> old boys are attracted to other 13 year old girls with budding

breasts

> and so forth, not small children. Anyway - the situation escalated

and

> it even went to the police and the courts. Of course the family

was

> ripped in two. When it all ended and we had listened to both sides

and

> tried to remain as supportive as we could to both sides we finally

had

> to choose to believe my brother's side and we no longer have any

contact

> with the other family who moved to another state. Throughout all

of

> this all the family (even my parents-in-law) chalked all of this up

to

> my SIL & BIL " reaping what they sowed " with their kids and we of

course

> were all suspecting that somewhere along the line my nephew or

perhaps

> both of them had been molested by someone as well. My SIL

vehemently

> denies that this is even a possibility.

>

> Jump ahead another year. When Jake was diagnosed I immediately

started

> reading everything I could. I still have so much more to learn and

more

> to read but I am going at the pace I am able to handle. The one

thing

> that is sticking in my craw is that every time I read about

Asperger's

> syndrome, I think about my youngest nephew. I don't know if

Asperger's

> is correct or not, but I'm virtually convinced that my nephew is on

the

> spectrum somewhere and considering that he never had a speech delay

and

> definitely has above average intelligence, I thought that one

seemed the

> most possible. All the sudden now I'm looking back on his whole

life

> and wondering about what it might have been like if this had been

> pursued a long time ago. Now I'm not by any means saying that I

think

> his molesting my niece has anything to do with Asperger's, because

I

> don't. I know that other factors have come into play here. (He

> apparently got into porn on the internet according to my SIL)

Anyway,

> it's been bugging me and bugging me and I finally wrote my SIL a

letter

> and sent her Tony Attwood's book. I'm going to include the letter

in

> another post because I would like some feedback about it.

>

> I'm sorry this has become such a novel, and I don't even know if a

post

> this long can be sent into the list but I really just needed to get

it

> off my shoulders. I hope it's not upsetting to anyone. I also

hope

> nobody on this list knows either her or me in real life and can put

all

> the pieces together! :/ A lot of our friends don't know all the

> details and I don't want to be a gossiper about it. We haven't

spoken

> in months, but I heard from a mutual friend that she was extremely

> pissed off that I wrote her about it at all, and just because my

son was

> Autistic, who did I think I was suggesting that anything was wrong

with

> her son. " There is nothing wrong with her son " says the lady who

is

> the epitome of the saying that DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt.

>

> OK, whew! So - from all of this, do you think I was wrong to send

the

> letter? Do you think I'm off base in suspecting that my nephew is

on

> the Spectrum? If you want to ask me any questions about him, I

will

> answer them as best I can remember about his behaviors over the

years.

>

> Thanks so much if you're still reading!

>

> ~ Karin

January 3, 2003

Karin, I did read your whole post, and I think you did the right

thing. You obviously are very torn about the whole situation and it

would be very selfish of her to not consider your feelings or the

position you were in. I don't know if it'll help or not, it all

depends on her. Good luck. What a horrible and sad mess. Don't

blame yourself.

> I have been wanting to " talk " to y'all for a long time about a

situation

> in my family that has been extremely distressing to me and get your

> input. When Salli's story about her friend with the possibly

autistic

> child came up and the response she had - I think I'm going to

finally

> send this in. I don't think I can possibly type out this entire

story

> but I'll include as much of it as I can. If y'all can stand to

read

> through it all. It sounds like a soap opera I assure you.

>

> My husband's sister and I were always very, very close. In fact we

were

> midwifery partners for several years. Best friends as well as

> sisters-in-law. She had her kids a long time ago - they are now 19

and

> 14. Both are boys. The oldest one is extremely NT - very bright,

very

> social, very well liked. The " golden child " you might say. The 14

year

> old has had the complete opposite life, except for the brightness

part.

> The 14 year old boy is extremely intelligent, probably more so

than

> his older brother. But, ever since that child was a baby he has

had

> soooo many problems. The family (my SIL included) kind of chalked

it

> up to a " bad start " . My SIL was very depressed to be pregnant, did

not

> want another child, has many issues in her past including sexual

abuse

> and lots of problems along those lines. When the youngest boy was

born

> she didn't " bond " with him too well although she really did do her

best

> in trying to be a good Mother to him. He was just a difficult

child to

> mother for one thing. Whereas the first son was so delightful, and

she

> just adored him, the second child was as morose as could be,

completely

> anti-social, strange, a complete " Klingon " to his mother (clinged

on to

> her - she was the only person who could ever hold him, etc.). He

was

> just the neediest child. No one really liked the poor kid. (not

me, I

> loved him because I loved all babies and wanted one so badly and I

often

> babysat both the kids) But for the most part the second child was

just

> very difficult is the only way I can think to say it. He did not

have

> any real apparent developmental delays. But he absolutely hated

people.

> My SIL had already started home-schooling her oldest and by the

time

> the youngest was kindergarten age she just home-schooled him too.

The

> real reason she home-schooled is because she wanted to pursue

Midwifery

> and our schedule was so hectic at that time that she preferred to

stick

> her kids in the back seat of the car with their textbooks and take

them

> all over creation with us then have to be home on time to get them

from

> school and stuff. It wouldn't have mattered because the youngest

would

> never have gone to school - he couldn't have handled it. So,

because of

> this - no " professionals " really ever saw the kids. They rarely

ever

> went to a doctor, definitely not for any well check ups. She did

start

> immunizing the youngest at a few years of age but eventually quit

the

> shots because she thought he was reacting badly to them. At about

3

> years of age the kid became addicted to video games and he still is

to

> this day. He would brag to me that he had played video games for

14

> hours in a day with the rest being spent on eating, sleeping and a

> little bit of school work. So, as the kid aged, he just got

weirder and

> weirder. A lot of the family just blamed it on bad parenting (the

> father, my BIL is pretty much a bump on a log) and my SIL always

jumped

> from one self-interest to another basically trying to escape her

life

> and they blamed it on video games. Eventually the oldest child was

> deemed able to care for the younger one and the boys were left home

> alone quite a lot when the older one turned about 12 (the younger

one

> being about 7 probably). Even though I disapproved of their

upbringing,

> I was never going to say anything to her about it because I felt

> completely unqualified - being childless all this time, and also

she was

> so sensitive about things. And I wasn't completely sure that the

kids

> were really going to turn out that bad.

>

> Jump ahead a few years. At 16 years of age the older boy revealed

that

> he had been doing drugs for several years as well as drinking

heavily.

> He also announced he was moving out on the day he turned 17 to move

in

> with his 20 year old girlfriend. He never has finished school even

> though he is now almost 20 yrs. old. Both boys had gotten quite

far

> behind in their schooling. The last I knew the 14 year old was

about 2

> or 3 years behind in grade. We all felt really terrible about the

> oldest child " flipping out " like that. We did a

family " intervention "

> with all of them and practically begged the older son to go into

rehab

> and for the whole family to go into therapy. They did do this for

a

> couple of sessions. The older kid left the house anyway. At this

point

> I decided I was going to write my SIL a letter about her younger

son. I

> wasn't going to sit by any longer and watch a situation unfold

without

> saying something about it because I had a lot of guilt about

observing

> things in my older nephew that I just brushed off and never

confronted

> her about. So I told her I was really worried about my younger

nephew.

> I thought he was in danger of doing something really bad. I

imagined

> that he might one day end up like those boys who shot up the school

at

> Columbine. He was still very young but really into very violent

video

> games and was so anti-social that that was one of the only things I

> could imagine about him. I also was afraid that he might be

vulnerable

> to male attention in a sexual way if someone approached him because

he

> is very " feminine " acting and his relationship with his father was

> practically nil from what we could see. At this point the kid was

about

> 11 years old when I wrote that letter. She was already pretty

ticked at

> us for the whole family intervention thing and I found out later

that

> she viewed it as us just kicking them when they were down. Which

was

> never, never our intention. Our relationship between herself and

me was

> already becoming much more distant because of this and the fact

that I

> had moved away to another city.

>

> Skip ahead to the next year. When that boy was about 13 my brother

> caught him in the act of molesting his four year old daughter. So,

to

> get the story straight here, my husband's nephew (his sister's

child)

> molested my niece (my brother's child). Prior to this, we had all

been

> a very close family with my brother and his family being very close

to

> my in-laws as well. To say that all Hell broke loose would be a

massive

> understatement. I won't even bother to go into all that happened

as a

> result of that, but suffice it to say that it had been going on a

while,

> my brother and his wife were completely devastated, my SIL & BIL

got

> completely defensive and tried to act like it was just a couple of

kids

> being " curious " with each other. It was nothing like that at all

> considering the age difference, the power difference between the

two (my

> 13 year old nephew was taller than me and about 140 lbs. at least -

my 4

> year old niece was about 35 lbs. and barely out of toddlerhood),

and

> then add to that my niece knew absolutely nothing about sex at that

> point so she was not " curious " . Add to that the fact that most 13

year

> old boys are attracted to other 13 year old girls with budding

breasts

> and so forth, not small children. Anyway - the situation escalated

and

> it even went to the police and the courts. Of course the family

was

> ripped in two. When it all ended and we had listened to both sides

and

> tried to remain as supportive as we could to both sides we finally

had

> to choose to believe my brother's side and we no longer have any

contact

> with the other family who moved to another state. Throughout all

of

> this all the family (even my parents-in-law) chalked all of this up

to

> my SIL & BIL " reaping what they sowed " with their kids and we of

course

> were all suspecting that somewhere along the line my nephew or

perhaps

> both of them had been molested by someone as well. My SIL

vehemently

> denies that this is even a possibility.

>

> Jump ahead another year. When Jake was diagnosed I immediately

started

> reading everything I could. I still have so much more to learn and

more

> to read but I am going at the pace I am able to handle. The one

thing

> that is sticking in my craw is that every time I read about

Asperger's

> syndrome, I think about my youngest nephew. I don't know if

Asperger's

> is correct or not, but I'm virtually convinced that my nephew is on

the

> spectrum somewhere and considering that he never had a speech delay

and

> definitely has above average intelligence, I thought that one

seemed the

> most possible. All the sudden now I'm looking back on his whole

life

> and wondering about what it might have been like if this had been

> pursued a long time ago. Now I'm not by any means saying that I

think

> his molesting my niece has anything to do with Asperger's, because

I

> don't. I know that other factors have come into play here. (He

> apparently got into porn on the internet according to my SIL)

Anyway,

> it's been bugging me and bugging me and I finally wrote my SIL a

letter

> and sent her Tony Attwood's book. I'm going to include the letter

in

> another post because I would like some feedback about it.

>

> I'm sorry this has become such a novel, and I don't even know if a

post

> this long can be sent into the list but I really just needed to get

it

> off my shoulders. I hope it's not upsetting to anyone. I also

hope

> nobody on this list knows either her or me in real life and can put

all

> the pieces together! :/ A lot of our friends don't know all the

> details and I don't want to be a gossiper about it. We haven't

spoken

> in months, but I heard from a mutual friend that she was extremely

> pissed off that I wrote her about it at all, and just because my

son was

> Autistic, who did I think I was suggesting that anything was wrong

with

> her son. " There is nothing wrong with her son " says the lady who

is

> the epitome of the saying that DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt.

>

> OK, whew! So - from all of this, do you think I was wrong to send

the

> letter? Do you think I'm off base in suspecting that my nephew is

on

> the Spectrum? If you want to ask me any questions about him, I

will

> answer them as best I can remember about his behaviors over the

years.

>

> Thanks so much if you're still reading!

>

> ~ Karin

January 3, 2003

Karin, I did read your whole post, and I think you did the right

thing. You obviously are very torn about the whole situation and it

would be very selfish of her to not consider your feelings or the

position you were in. I don't know if it'll help or not, it all

depends on her. Good luck. What a horrible and sad mess. Don't

blame yourself.

> I have been wanting to " talk " to y'all for a long time about a

situation

> in my family that has been extremely distressing to me and get your

> input. When Salli's story about her friend with the possibly

autistic

> child came up and the response she had - I think I'm going to

finally

> send this in. I don't think I can possibly type out this entire

story

> but I'll include as much of it as I can. If y'all can stand to

read

> through it all. It sounds like a soap opera I assure you.

>

> My husband's sister and I were always very, very close. In fact we

were

> midwifery partners for several years. Best friends as well as

> sisters-in-law. She had her kids a long time ago - they are now 19

and

> 14. Both are boys. The oldest one is extremely NT - very bright,

very

> social, very well liked. The " golden child " you might say. The 14

year

> old has had the complete opposite life, except for the brightness

part.

> The 14 year old boy is extremely intelligent, probably more so

than

> his older brother. But, ever since that child was a baby he has

had

> soooo many problems. The family (my SIL included) kind of chalked

it

> up to a " bad start " . My SIL was very depressed to be pregnant, did

not

> want another child, has many issues in her past including sexual

abuse

> and lots of problems along those lines. When the youngest boy was

born

> she didn't " bond " with him too well although she really did do her

best

> in trying to be a good Mother to him. He was just a difficult

child to

> mother for one thing. Whereas the first son was so delightful, and

she

> just adored him, the second child was as morose as could be,

completely

> anti-social, strange, a complete " Klingon " to his mother (clinged

on to

> her - she was the only person who could ever hold him, etc.). He

was

> just the neediest child. No one really liked the poor kid. (not

me, I

> loved him because I loved all babies and wanted one so badly and I

often

> babysat both the kids) But for the most part the second child was

just

> very difficult is the only way I can think to say it. He did not

have

> any real apparent developmental delays. But he absolutely hated

people.

> My SIL had already started home-schooling her oldest and by the

time

> the youngest was kindergarten age she just home-schooled him too.

The

> real reason she home-schooled is because she wanted to pursue

Midwifery

> and our schedule was so hectic at that time that she preferred to

stick

> her kids in the back seat of the car with their textbooks and take

them

> all over creation with us then have to be home on time to get them

from

> school and stuff. It wouldn't have mattered because the youngest

would

> never have gone to school - he couldn't have handled it. So,

because of

> this - no " professionals " really ever saw the kids. They rarely

ever

> went to a doctor, definitely not for any well check ups. She did

start

> immunizing the youngest at a few years of age but eventually quit

the

> shots because she thought he was reacting badly to them. At about

3

> years of age the kid became addicted to video games and he still is

to

> this day. He would brag to me that he had played video games for

14

> hours in a day with the rest being spent on eating, sleeping and a

> little bit of school work. So, as the kid aged, he just got

weirder and

> weirder. A lot of the family just blamed it on bad parenting (the

> father, my BIL is pretty much a bump on a log) and my SIL always

jumped

> from one self-interest to another basically trying to escape her

life

> and they blamed it on video games. Eventually the oldest child was

> deemed able to care for the younger one and the boys were left home

> alone quite a lot when the older one turned about 12 (the younger

one

> being about 7 probably). Even though I disapproved of their

upbringing,

> I was never going to say anything to her about it because I felt

> completely unqualified - being childless all this time, and also

she was

> so sensitive about things. And I wasn't completely sure that the

kids

> were really going to turn out that bad.

>

> Jump ahead a few years. At 16 years of age the older boy revealed

that

> he had been doing drugs for several years as well as drinking

heavily.

> He also announced he was moving out on the day he turned 17 to move

in

> with his 20 year old girlfriend. He never has finished school even

> though he is now almost 20 yrs. old. Both boys had gotten quite

far

> behind in their schooling. The last I knew the 14 year old was

about 2

> or 3 years behind in grade. We all felt really terrible about the

> oldest child " flipping out " like that. We did a

family " intervention "

> with all of them and practically begged the older son to go into

rehab

> and for the whole family to go into therapy. They did do this for

a

> couple of sessions. The older kid left the house anyway. At this

point

> I decided I was going to write my SIL a letter about her younger

son. I

> wasn't going to sit by any longer and watch a situation unfold

without

> saying something about it because I had a lot of guilt about

observing

> things in my older nephew that I just brushed off and never

confronted

> her about. So I told her I was really worried about my younger

nephew.

> I thought he was in danger of doing something really bad. I

imagined

> that he might one day end up like those boys who shot up the school

at

> Columbine. He was still very young but really into very violent

video

> games and was so anti-social that that was one of the only things I

> could imagine about him. I also was afraid that he might be

vulnerable

> to male attention in a sexual way if someone approached him because

he

> is very " feminine " acting and his relationship with his father was

> practically nil from what we could see. At this point the kid was

about

> 11 years old when I wrote that letter. She was already pretty

ticked at

> us for the whole family intervention thing and I found out later

that

> she viewed it as us just kicking them when they were down. Which

was

> never, never our intention. Our relationship between herself and

me was

> already becoming much more distant because of this and the fact

that I

> had moved away to another city.

>

> Skip ahead to the next year. When that boy was about 13 my brother

> caught him in the act of molesting his four year old daughter. So,

to

> get the story straight here, my husband's nephew (his sister's

child)

> molested my niece (my brother's child). Prior to this, we had all

been

> a very close family with my brother and his family being very close

to

> my in-laws as well. To say that all Hell broke loose would be a

massive

> understatement. I won't even bother to go into all that happened

as a

> result of that, but suffice it to say that it had been going on a

while,

> my brother and his wife were completely devastated, my SIL & BIL

got

> completely defensive and tried to act like it was just a couple of

kids

> being " curious " with each other. It was nothing like that at all

> considering the age difference, the power difference between the

two (my

> 13 year old nephew was taller than me and about 140 lbs. at least -

my 4

> year old niece was about 35 lbs. and barely out of toddlerhood),

and

> then add to that my niece knew absolutely nothing about sex at that

> point so she was not " curious " . Add to that the fact that most 13

year

> old boys are attracted to other 13 year old girls with budding

breasts

> and so forth, not small children. Anyway - the situation escalated

and

> it even went to the police and the courts. Of course the family

was

> ripped in two. When it all ended and we had listened to both sides

and

> tried to remain as supportive as we could to both sides we finally

had

> to choose to believe my brother's side and we no longer have any

contact

> with the other family who moved to another state. Throughout all

of

> this all the family (even my parents-in-law) chalked all of this up

to

> my SIL & BIL " reaping what they sowed " with their kids and we of

course

> were all suspecting that somewhere along the line my nephew or

perhaps

> both of them had been molested by someone as well. My SIL

vehemently

> denies that this is even a possibility.

>

> Jump ahead another year. When Jake was diagnosed I immediately

started

> reading everything I could. I still have so much more to learn and

more

> to read but I am going at the pace I am able to handle. The one

thing

> that is sticking in my craw is that every time I read about

Asperger's

> syndrome, I think about my youngest nephew. I don't know if

Asperger's

> is correct or not, but I'm virtually convinced that my nephew is on

the

> spectrum somewhere and considering that he never had a speech delay

and

> definitely has above average intelligence, I thought that one

seemed the

> most possible. All the sudden now I'm looking back on his whole

life

> and wondering about what it might have been like if this had been

> pursued a long time ago. Now I'm not by any means saying that I

think

> his molesting my niece has anything to do with Asperger's, because

I

> don't. I know that other factors have come into play here. (He

> apparently got into porn on the internet according to my SIL)

Anyway,

> it's been bugging me and bugging me and I finally wrote my SIL a

letter

> and sent her Tony Attwood's book. I'm going to include the letter

in

> another post because I would like some feedback about it.

>

> I'm sorry this has become such a novel, and I don't even know if a

post

> this long can be sent into the list but I really just needed to get

it

> off my shoulders. I hope it's not upsetting to anyone. I also

hope

> nobody on this list knows either her or me in real life and can put

all

> the pieces together! :/ A lot of our friends don't know all the

> details and I don't want to be a gossiper about it. We haven't

spoken

> in months, but I heard from a mutual friend that she was extremely

> pissed off that I wrote her about it at all, and just because my

son was

> Autistic, who did I think I was suggesting that anything was wrong

with

> her son. " There is nothing wrong with her son " says the lady who

is

> the epitome of the saying that DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt.

>

> OK, whew! So - from all of this, do you think I was wrong to send

the

> letter? Do you think I'm off base in suspecting that my nephew is

on

> the Spectrum? If you want to ask me any questions about him, I

will

> answer them as best I can remember about his behaviors over the

years.

>

> Thanks so much if you're still reading!

>

> ~ Karin

January 3, 2003

Oh my!

((((((Karin))))))

What a terrible situation to be in.

I don't know what else to say. I really don't.

Tina

January 3, 2003

Oh my!

((((((Karin))))))

What a terrible situation to be in.

I don't know what else to say. I really don't.

Tina

January 3, 2003

Oh my!

((((((Karin))))))

What a terrible situation to be in.

I don't know what else to say. I really don't.

Tina

January 3, 2003

I think you were right in sending her the letter. Please don't kick

yourself about any of this. It's not anything you could have prevented

judging by her denial now.

Sue

January 3, 2003

I think you were right in sending her the letter. Please don't kick

yourself about any of this. It's not anything you could have prevented

judging by her denial now.

Sue

January 3, 2003

I think you were right in sending her the letter. Please don't kick

yourself about any of this. It's not anything you could have prevented

judging by her denial now.

Sue

January 4, 2003

> OK, whew! So - from all of this, do you think I was wrong to send the

> letter? Do you think I'm off base in suspecting that my nephew is on

> the Spectrum?

I also read your letter to your SIL and I think it is a very gentle, polite,

well-written letter. I would hope that she is wanting answers and help for

her obviously disturbed son, and that reading the book you so thoughtfully

include will open her eyes, and she will finally understand her very

different child and be able to help him in new ways, and that she will be

eternally thankful to you.

Given that at this point she still has not sought help for him, and

everything that has happened between her and the rest of the family in the

past, I'm sorry to say I doubt that will really happen.

But I would not be able to sit back and not say anything, either, on the off

chance that you just might be able to help. I can't see how you're going to

do any further harm, so I personally would send it and be prepared for an

angry response.

Good luck. Please let us know what happens.

-Sara.

January 4, 2003

> OK, whew! So - from all of this, do you think I was wrong to send the

> letter? Do you think I'm off base in suspecting that my nephew is on

> the Spectrum?

I also read your letter to your SIL and I think it is a very gentle, polite,

well-written letter. I would hope that she is wanting answers and help for

her obviously disturbed son, and that reading the book you so thoughtfully

include will open her eyes, and she will finally understand her very

different child and be able to help him in new ways, and that she will be

eternally thankful to you.

Given that at this point she still has not sought help for him, and

everything that has happened between her and the rest of the family in the

past, I'm sorry to say I doubt that will really happen.

But I would not be able to sit back and not say anything, either, on the off

chance that you just might be able to help. I can't see how you're going to

do any further harm, so I personally would send it and be prepared for an

angry response.

Good luck. Please let us know what happens.

-Sara.

January 4, 2003

> OK, whew! So - from all of this, do you think I was wrong to send the

> letter? Do you think I'm off base in suspecting that my nephew is on

> the Spectrum?

I also read your letter to your SIL and I think it is a very gentle, polite,

well-written letter. I would hope that she is wanting answers and help for

her obviously disturbed son, and that reading the book you so thoughtfully

include will open her eyes, and she will finally understand her very

different child and be able to help him in new ways, and that she will be

eternally thankful to you.

Given that at this point she still has not sought help for him, and

everything that has happened between her and the rest of the family in the

past, I'm sorry to say I doubt that will really happen.

But I would not be able to sit back and not say anything, either, on the off

chance that you just might be able to help. I can't see how you're going to

do any further harm, so I personally would send it and be prepared for an

angry response.

Good luck. Please let us know what happens.

-Sara.

January 4, 2003

Karin ~

What a mess! That is the first thing that comes to mind.

I read all this and your letter, and here is my take on everything.

1. There was definatly bad parenting (not to mention bad homeschooling) going on

there. Because of that she may not care about her younger child and just hope

that she can get through it all and look forward to the day he moves out.

Especially after everything that happened with her oldest.

2. I don't think that getting into porn on the internet would cause him to

molest a 4 year old unless he found child porn and thought that was " normal "

for whatever reason. Still, you would think that he would just " know " that it

was wrong. As you said, he should be attracted to girls his own age. This boy

is definatly screaming for help and you seem to be the only person listening.

3. You did the right thing, don't beat yourself up over it. There is definatly

something wrong with your nephew, if it is ASD of some sort or not. He needs

help. Now the problem is weather or not your SIL cares enough to get something

done. It sounds like she has become somewhat self centered and is trying to

ignore what is going on because she doesn't want to deal with it. You can lead

a horse to water but you can't make them drink.

I really hate to suggest this but if you are really concerned and you don't

think that she is doing anything you can make a phone call to child protective

services and get them involved (in fact, from what I know, I am surprised that

they didn't get involved when your 4 year old neice was molested) and they will

make her find out what is wrong with your nephew or remove him and get him the

help he needs. My friend on another list reminds everyone every so often

that sometimes you must use tough love.

I probably would have done the same thing that you did and write that letter and

send the book.

Georga Hackworth

www.ubah.com/F1549 Enter to win $50 in FREE books!

long story - talking to someone about Autism

I have been wanting to " talk " to y'all for a long time about a situation

in my family that has been extremely distressing to me and get your

input. When Salli's story about her friend with the possibly autistic

child came up and the response she had - I think I'm going to finally

send this in. I don't think I can possibly type out this entire story

but I'll include as much of it as I can. If y'all can stand to read

through it all. It sounds like a soap opera I assure you.

January 4, 2003