Re: Armour and T4 question

[Guest guest]

Hi Katy,

High T4 does not make you hyper.... Just as low TSH does not make you hyper.

What makes you hyper is T3 that is waaay too high, that means well over the top of it's range.

But even more than the numbers.. it's how you feel, how your body is responding, that tells if you are hyper or hypo. That's why labs alone can't tell the tale, you also need to factor in symptoms.

What can also cause you to seem hyper is when your body is not able to handle increases in thyroid hormone due to poor functioning adrenals.

In your situation... Are they testing Totals or Frees? Total T4 and Total T3 are listed on the lab sheet as simply T4 and T3. Free T4 and Free T3 are listed with the Free.....

Total Ts aren't an accurate enough test, it shows the Total of all the T4s, bound and free... we need to know what the free unbound and available hormone is.

That said.

If Free T4 is mid range, but Free T3 is mid range or low range, it means one of two things, either you're not getting enough replacement hormone, or your body isn't able to convert enough of the T4 (storage hormone) into T3 (active hormone)

There are four options:

Increase T4 dose (Synthroid, Levoxyl, Levothyroxine... those are all T4 only meds) in the hope that having more T4 available will allow your body to covert more of the T3 it needs to function.

Add Cytomel. Synthetic T3. To give your body the active hormone it needs to function.

Dump the synthetic and change to natural thyroid, like Armour. Many of us have bodies that don't process the synthetic hormone very well, we do better with natural hormone. And the fact that the natural hormone sources have all the thyroid hormones, the T4 (storage hormone), T3 (active hormone, on that is used by most of the body processes), T2 (active hormone, linked to metabolic function), and T1 (active hormone, linked to brain function).

Support hormone conversion. That would be doing things like the mini meal style of eating, adding selenium to the diet, avoiding soy and high fructose corn syrup (the two most common goitrogens).

Things to keep in mind is that T4 is a TSH suppressant. High levels of T4 in the system are detected by the pituitary gland causing it to decrease TSH production. But if that T4 is not being stored in the body tissues and/or is not being converted into active hormone you will still have insufficient thyroid hormone to be able to function in a healthy manner and you will still be hypo.

What type of hormone were you on before starting in the one grain of Armour?

Topper ()

On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 13:48:15 -0000 "Katy" writes:

I've been taking 1 grain Armour for four weeks and am due for a blood test to check my T4, T3 and TSH levels tomorrow. I have a question.Although my T3 is a very low normal, my T4 is right in the middle of the range. I have plenty of hypoT symptoms and my Dr has prescribed Armour on the basis of symptoms really, with the view that I have a T4-T3 conversion problem. However, he wants to be "safe" and check blood levels to check I don't go hyperT. So what I don't understand is this. Armour contains both T4 and T3 (with other hormones etc) so won't taking Armour raise *both* T3 and T4, thus putting me at risk of seeming hyper if my T4 goes up off the scale? TIAKaty

[Guest guest]

Hi Katy,

High T4 does not make you hyper.... Just as low TSH does not make you hyper.

What makes you hyper is T3 that is waaay too high, that means well over the top of it's range.

But even more than the numbers.. it's how you feel, how your body is responding, that tells if you are hyper or hypo. That's why labs alone can't tell the tale, you also need to factor in symptoms.

What can also cause you to seem hyper is when your body is not able to handle increases in thyroid hormone due to poor functioning adrenals.

In your situation... Are they testing Totals or Frees? Total T4 and Total T3 are listed on the lab sheet as simply T4 and T3. Free T4 and Free T3 are listed with the Free.....

Total Ts aren't an accurate enough test, it shows the Total of all the T4s, bound and free... we need to know what the free unbound and available hormone is.

That said.

If Free T4 is mid range, but Free T3 is mid range or low range, it means one of two things, either you're not getting enough replacement hormone, or your body isn't able to convert enough of the T4 (storage hormone) into T3 (active hormone)

There are four options:

Increase T4 dose (Synthroid, Levoxyl, Levothyroxine... those are all T4 only meds) in the hope that having more T4 available will allow your body to covert more of the T3 it needs to function.

Add Cytomel. Synthetic T3. To give your body the active hormone it needs to function.

Dump the synthetic and change to natural thyroid, like Armour. Many of us have bodies that don't process the synthetic hormone very well, we do better with natural hormone. And the fact that the natural hormone sources have all the thyroid hormones, the T4 (storage hormone), T3 (active hormone, on that is used by most of the body processes), T2 (active hormone, linked to metabolic function), and T1 (active hormone, linked to brain function).

Support hormone conversion. That would be doing things like the mini meal style of eating, adding selenium to the diet, avoiding soy and high fructose corn syrup (the two most common goitrogens).

Things to keep in mind is that T4 is a TSH suppressant. High levels of T4 in the system are detected by the pituitary gland causing it to decrease TSH production. But if that T4 is not being stored in the body tissues and/or is not being converted into active hormone you will still have insufficient thyroid hormone to be able to function in a healthy manner and you will still be hypo.

What type of hormone were you on before starting in the one grain of Armour?

Topper ()

On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 13:48:15 -0000 "Katy" writes:

I've been taking 1 grain Armour for four weeks and am due for a blood test to check my T4, T3 and TSH levels tomorrow. I have a question.Although my T3 is a very low normal, my T4 is right in the middle of the range. I have plenty of hypoT symptoms and my Dr has prescribed Armour on the basis of symptoms really, with the view that I have a T4-T3 conversion problem. However, he wants to be "safe" and check blood levels to check I don't go hyperT. So what I don't understand is this. Armour contains both T4 and T3 (with other hormones etc) so won't taking Armour raise *both* T3 and T4, thus putting me at risk of seeming hyper if my T4 goes up off the scale? TIAKaty

[Guest guest]

Hi

Yes the tests are FreeT4 and FreeT3. And both my Doc and I agree

that it's probably a conversion T4-T3 problem.

I'm brand new to thyroid meds of any sort. My 1 grain Armour over

the past four weeks is the first hormones I have taken - never taken

synthetic. I did my homework over several years and found the right

doc and was lucky enough to get put straight on to Armour

Although my Doc is treating my symptoms, I know he has to " watch his

back " because, in the worst case, Docs over here in England have

been had up in front of the General Medical Council for prescribing

thyroid hormones to patients with " normal " bloods, despite hypo

symptoms. Thus, if my T4 goes above the highest " norm " there might

be a question of having my Armour withdrawn.

I'm afraid I still don't understand the answer to my original

question about why taking Armour would not raise my T4 to above

the " recommended " level, though - can you explain again? (Blame the

brain fog.) As it contains both T4 and T3, in raising T3 won't it

also raise T4, especially as T4 is the " storage " hormone?

And yes I am also concerned about the T4 suppressing the TSH so much

(it's low anyway) that from the bloods it looks like I am " hyper " ,

symptoms or no.

Katy

>

> Hi Katy,

>

> High T4 does not make you hyper.... Just as low TSH does not make

you

> hyper.

>

> What makes you hyper is T3 that is waaay too high, that means well

over

> the top of it's range.

>

> But even more than the numbers.. it's how you feel, how your body

is

> responding, that tells if you are hyper or hypo. That's why labs

alone

> can't tell the tale, you also need to factor in symptoms.

>

> What can also cause you to seem hyper is when your body is not

able to

> handle increases in thyroid hormone due to poor functioning

adrenals.

>

> In your situation... Are they testing Totals or Frees? Total T4

and Total

> T3 are listed on the lab sheet as simply T4 and T3. Free T4 and

Free T3

> are listed with the Free.....

>

> Total Ts aren't an accurate enough test, it shows the Total of all

the

> T4s, bound and free... we need to know what the free unbound and

> available hormone is.

>

> That said.

>

> If Free T4 is mid range, but Free T3 is mid range or low range, it

means

> one of two things, either you're not getting enough replacement

hormone,

> or your body isn't able to convert enough of the T4 (storage

hormone)

> into T3 (active hormone)

>

> There are four options:

> Increase T4 dose (Synthroid, Levoxyl, Levothyroxine... those are

all T4

> only meds) in the hope that having more T4 available will allow

your body

> to covert more of the T3 it needs to function.

> Add Cytomel. Synthetic T3. To give your body the active hormone it

needs

> to function.

> Dump the synthetic and change to natural thyroid, like Armour.

Many of us

> have bodies that don't process the synthetic hormone very well, we

do

> better with natural hormone. And the fact that the natural hormone

> sources have all the thyroid hormones, the T4 (storage hormone), T3

> (active hormone, on that is used by most of the body processes), T2

> (active hormone, linked to metabolic function), and T1 (active

hormone,

> linked to brain function).

> Support hormone conversion. That would be doing things like the

mini meal

> style of eating, adding selenium to the diet, avoiding soy and high

> fructose corn syrup (the two most common goitrogens).

>

> Things to keep in mind is that T4 is a TSH suppressant. High

levels of T4

> in the system are detected by the pituitary gland causing it to

decrease

> TSH production. But if that T4 is not being stored in the body

tissues

> and/or is not being converted into active hormone you will still

have

> insufficient thyroid hormone to be able to function in a healthy

manner

> and you will still be hypo.

>

> What type of hormone were you on before starting in the one grain

of

> Armour?

>

> Topper ()

>

[Guest guest]

It would a little harder for the T4 to be upped too much because of the

proportion of T4 to T3 in Armour. There are 38 mcgs of T4 and 9 mcgs of T3

in each grain of Armour. Therefore, the T3 would have crept up more in

proportion to T4, before any signs or symptoms of being overloaded.

Remember, T4 does convert to T3, so when you add that amt of T3 to the

already existing direct amt in the Armour, you can easily see this

proportion, testwise.

Re: Armour and T4 question

> Hi

>

> Yes the tests are FreeT4 and FreeT3. And both my Doc and I agree

> that it's probably a conversion T4-T3 problem.

>

> I'm brand new to thyroid meds of any sort. My 1 grain Armour over

> the past four weeks is the first hormones I have taken - never taken

> synthetic. I did my homework over several years and found the right

> doc and was lucky enough to get put straight on to Armour

>

> Although my Doc is treating my symptoms, I know he has to " watch his

> back " because, in the worst case, Docs over here in England have

> been had up in front of the General Medical Council for prescribing

> thyroid hormones to patients with " normal " bloods, despite hypo

> symptoms. Thus, if my T4 goes above the highest " norm " there might

> be a question of having my Armour withdrawn.

>

> I'm afraid I still don't understand the answer to my original

> question about why taking Armour would not raise my T4 to above

> the " recommended " level, though - can you explain again? (Blame the

> brain fog.) As it contains both T4 and T3, in raising T3 won't it

> also raise T4, especially as T4 is the " storage " hormone?

>

> And yes I am also concerned about the T4 suppressing the TSH so much

> (it's low anyway) that from the bloods it looks like I am " hyper " ,

> symptoms or no.

>

> Katy

[Guest guest]

It would a little harder for the T4 to be upped too much because of the

proportion of T4 to T3 in Armour. There are 38 mcgs of T4 and 9 mcgs of T3

in each grain of Armour. Therefore, the T3 would have crept up more in

proportion to T4, before any signs or symptoms of being overloaded.

Remember, T4 does convert to T3, so when you add that amt of T3 to the

already existing direct amt in the Armour, you can easily see this

proportion, testwise.

Re: Armour and T4 question

> Hi

>

> Yes the tests are FreeT4 and FreeT3. And both my Doc and I agree

> that it's probably a conversion T4-T3 problem.

>

> I'm brand new to thyroid meds of any sort. My 1 grain Armour over

> the past four weeks is the first hormones I have taken - never taken

> synthetic. I did my homework over several years and found the right

> doc and was lucky enough to get put straight on to Armour

>

> Although my Doc is treating my symptoms, I know he has to " watch his

> back " because, in the worst case, Docs over here in England have

> been had up in front of the General Medical Council for prescribing

> thyroid hormones to patients with " normal " bloods, despite hypo

> symptoms. Thus, if my T4 goes above the highest " norm " there might

> be a question of having my Armour withdrawn.

>

> I'm afraid I still don't understand the answer to my original

> question about why taking Armour would not raise my T4 to above

> the " recommended " level, though - can you explain again? (Blame the

> brain fog.) As it contains both T4 and T3, in raising T3 won't it

> also raise T4, especially as T4 is the " storage " hormone?

>

> And yes I am also concerned about the T4 suppressing the TSH so much

> (it's low anyway) that from the bloods it looks like I am " hyper " ,

> symptoms or no.

>

> Katy

[Guest guest]

Thanks , that's very helpful.

I just have to hope that my conversion problem doesn't show up an

overload of T4 as a result, I suppose. :-/

Katy

>

> It would a little harder for the T4 to be upped too much because

of the

> proportion of T4 to T3 in Armour. There are 38 mcgs of T4 and 9

mcgs of T3

> in each grain of Armour. Therefore, the T3 would have crept up

more in

> proportion to T4, before any signs or symptoms of being overloaded.

> Remember, T4 does convert to T3, so when you add that amt of T3 to

the

> already existing direct amt in the Armour, you can easily see this

> proportion, testwise.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks , that's very helpful.

I just have to hope that my conversion problem doesn't show up an

overload of T4 as a result, I suppose. :-/

Katy

>

> It would a little harder for the T4 to be upped too much because

of the

> proportion of T4 to T3 in Armour. There are 38 mcgs of T4 and 9

mcgs of T3

> in each grain of Armour. Therefore, the T3 would have crept up

more in

> proportion to T4, before any signs or symptoms of being overloaded.

> Remember, T4 does convert to T3, so when you add that amt of T3 to

the

> already existing direct amt in the Armour, you can easily see this

> proportion, testwise.

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Katy,

Maybe this will clear up the murkiness a bit...

T4 is the storage hormone. When more T3 is needed this is the

hormone that is converted over to T3, T2, T1 etc.

T3 is the activity hormone which has a active life of around 3 to 6

hours in your body.

So, when you take Armour, you are getting both the storage hormone

as well as the active hormone(T3), however, the T3 is burned off by

the body after 3 to 6 hours. Thus your body turns back to the stored

hormone for more T3.

By adding more T4 to your body you are giving it more freshly

available stored T4 to convert over to the T3.

My question to you is: ?How are you taking the Armour?

In one dose, swallowed on an empty stomach and the stomach stays

empty for 1 hour afterwards and 3 hours before?

Or sublingual(desolved under the tongue)?

Or split in two doses or three or four? swallowed or sublingual?

Are you taking any Selenium supplements? Selenium helps the body

convert T4 over to T3.

Gossimer

>

> I've been taking 1 grain Armour for four weeks and am due for a

blood

> test to check my T4, T3 and TSH levels tomorrow. I have a

question.

>

> Although my T3 is a very low normal, my T4 is right in the middle

of

> the range. I have plenty of hypoT symptoms and my Dr has

prescribed

> Armour on the basis of symptoms really, with the view that I have

a T4-

> T3 conversion problem. However, he wants to be " safe " and check

blood

> levels to check I don't go hyperT. So what I don't understand is

> this. Armour contains both T4 and T3 (with other hormones etc) so

> won't taking Armour raise *both* T3 and T4, thus putting me at

risk of

> seeming hyper if my T4 goes up off the scale?

>

> TIA

>

> Katy

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Katy,

Maybe this will clear up the murkiness a bit...

T4 is the storage hormone. When more T3 is needed this is the

hormone that is converted over to T3, T2, T1 etc.

T3 is the activity hormone which has a active life of around 3 to 6

hours in your body.

So, when you take Armour, you are getting both the storage hormone

as well as the active hormone(T3), however, the T3 is burned off by

the body after 3 to 6 hours. Thus your body turns back to the stored

hormone for more T3.

By adding more T4 to your body you are giving it more freshly

available stored T4 to convert over to the T3.

My question to you is: ?How are you taking the Armour?

In one dose, swallowed on an empty stomach and the stomach stays

empty for 1 hour afterwards and 3 hours before?

Or sublingual(desolved under the tongue)?

Or split in two doses or three or four? swallowed or sublingual?

Are you taking any Selenium supplements? Selenium helps the body

convert T4 over to T3.

Gossimer

>

> I've been taking 1 grain Armour for four weeks and am due for a

blood

> test to check my T4, T3 and TSH levels tomorrow. I have a

question.

>

> Although my T3 is a very low normal, my T4 is right in the middle

of

> the range. I have plenty of hypoT symptoms and my Dr has

prescribed

> Armour on the basis of symptoms really, with the view that I have

a T4-

> T3 conversion problem. However, he wants to be " safe " and check

blood

> levels to check I don't go hyperT. So what I don't understand is

> this. Armour contains both T4 and T3 (with other hormones etc) so

> won't taking Armour raise *both* T3 and T4, thus putting me at

risk of

> seeming hyper if my T4 goes up off the scale?

>

> TIA

>

> Katy

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Katy,

Dosing twice a day is good. and sublingual is better.

hummm, I am wondering how you would feel if you were to take it in 4

splits... 1/4 upon rising, 1/4 after breakfast, 1/4 after lunch and

1/4 just as you fall into bed...I know this is a 'bit' more work in

the remembering department however it spreads the intake over more

of the hours of the day...more like what our Thryoid glands

do...hummm, just a thought...

As for the Selenium...some of us take a maximum of 200mcg a day as

our body seem to need more than others. If your body gets weird if

you increase the dosage then it is possible that your body doesn't

need more.... The body, if we listen, will tell us if it needs more

or less of nutrients.

Gossimer

>

> Hi Gossimer

>

> >> My question to you is: ?How are you taking the Armour?

> > In one dose, swallowed on an empty stomach and the stomach stays

> > empty for 1 hour afterwards and 3 hours before?

> > Or sublingual(desolved under the tongue)?

> > Or split in two doses or three or four? swallowed or sublingual?

> >

> > Are you taking any Selenium supplements? Selenium helps the body

> > convert T4 over to T3.

>

> I take the grain divided into two doses, half after breakfast and

> half after lunch and sublingually.

>

> Yes I'm taking selenium supplements - my multivit contains 25 mcg.

> Is that enough? And I eat a very healthy nutritious diet, so get

> some from there too.

>

> I tried taking extra Selenium a few months ago but it had a very

> strange effect on me - extreme vertigo and nausea. I couldn't

stand

> it and had to drop it.

>

> Katy

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Katy,

Dosing twice a day is good. and sublingual is better.

hummm, I am wondering how you would feel if you were to take it in 4

splits... 1/4 upon rising, 1/4 after breakfast, 1/4 after lunch and

1/4 just as you fall into bed...I know this is a 'bit' more work in

the remembering department however it spreads the intake over more

of the hours of the day...more like what our Thryoid glands

do...hummm, just a thought...

As for the Selenium...some of us take a maximum of 200mcg a day as

our body seem to need more than others. If your body gets weird if

you increase the dosage then it is possible that your body doesn't

need more.... The body, if we listen, will tell us if it needs more

or less of nutrients.

Gossimer

>

> Hi Gossimer

>

> >> My question to you is: ?How are you taking the Armour?

> > In one dose, swallowed on an empty stomach and the stomach stays

> > empty for 1 hour afterwards and 3 hours before?

> > Or sublingual(desolved under the tongue)?

> > Or split in two doses or three or four? swallowed or sublingual?

> >

> > Are you taking any Selenium supplements? Selenium helps the body

> > convert T4 over to T3.

>

> I take the grain divided into two doses, half after breakfast and

> half after lunch and sublingually.

>

> Yes I'm taking selenium supplements - my multivit contains 25 mcg.

> Is that enough? And I eat a very healthy nutritious diet, so get

> some from there too.

>

> I tried taking extra Selenium a few months ago but it had a very

> strange effect on me - extreme vertigo and nausea. I couldn't

stand

> it and had to drop it.

>

> Katy

>