Re: thyroid eye disease and graves

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb. Do you know that protruding eyes are one of the markers of Graves Disease ? Even once the disease is treated, the eyes stay the same.

At this point I don't think I had Graves disease. My thyroid was removed because of papillary cancer. But I went to my eye dr 2 or 3 weeks ago because my eyes were always tearing and began to feel hot. Eye doc told me my eyes had moved out some from my thyroid stuff and are drier thus tearing to try to keep them moist. He has me on an otc luquigel and eye drops. I keep them in business too ! When I get stronger, I will bug drs to look for other reasons for the tearing.

jane

tt 11/7/05papca encap; vasc inva 12/5/05rai 139 11/25/05wbs 12/2/05 normal post ttlevothyroxine 200 12/9/05

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Barb. Do you know that protruding eyes are one of the markers

of Graves Disease ? Even once the disease is treated, the eyes stay

the same.

>

> At this point I don't think I had Graves disease. My thyroid was

removed because of papillary cancer. But I went to my eye dr 2 or 3

weeks ago because my eyes were always tearing and began to feel

hot. Eye doc told me my eyes had moved out some from my thyroid

stuff and are drier thus tearing to try to keep them moist. He has

me on an otc luquigel and eye drops. I keep them in business too !

When I get stronger, I will bug drs to look for other reasons for

the tearing.

>

> jane

>

> tt 11/7/05

> papca encap; vasc inva 12/5/05

Hi Jane: Thanks for responding. I have done a fair amt of research

on Graves Disease and yes I know that protruding eyes are a symptom

of Graves. When I was diagnosed with Graves my symptoms were

palpitations, nervousness, etc. I had no eye symptoms until I had

the radioiodine, and I have read that the eye condition can follow

treatment with radioiodine. My greatest concern is now that I have

this eye disease, it seems that very little is known about what to

do about it. Eye drs. keep an eye on it because pressure can build

up and cause serious eye problems. Nothing is done if it doesn't

get to the point of bad vision problems/possible loss of vision. So

as far as I know, I just have to continue to live with these

problems. My current eye dr is not sure whether the dryness,

discomfort will ever go away. And I doubt that the swelling will

ever subside. I am trying to get referred to a dr who specializes

in Graves Disease, but this is in another city. There are very few

drs who are specialists in this area. Working on this anyway. All

the best. Barb

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Barb. Do you know that protruding eyes are one of the markers

of Graves Disease ? Even once the disease is treated, the eyes stay

the same.

>

> At this point I don't think I had Graves disease. My thyroid was

removed because of papillary cancer. But I went to my eye dr 2 or 3

weeks ago because my eyes were always tearing and began to feel

hot. Eye doc told me my eyes had moved out some from my thyroid

stuff and are drier thus tearing to try to keep them moist. He has

me on an otc luquigel and eye drops. I keep them in business too !

When I get stronger, I will bug drs to look for other reasons for

the tearing.

>

> jane

>

> tt 11/7/05

> papca encap; vasc inva 12/5/05

Hi Jane: Thanks for responding. I have done a fair amt of research

on Graves Disease and yes I know that protruding eyes are a symptom

of Graves. When I was diagnosed with Graves my symptoms were

palpitations, nervousness, etc. I had no eye symptoms until I had

the radioiodine, and I have read that the eye condition can follow

treatment with radioiodine. My greatest concern is now that I have

this eye disease, it seems that very little is known about what to

do about it. Eye drs. keep an eye on it because pressure can build

up and cause serious eye problems. Nothing is done if it doesn't

get to the point of bad vision problems/possible loss of vision. So

as far as I know, I just have to continue to live with these

problems. My current eye dr is not sure whether the dryness,

discomfort will ever go away. And I doubt that the swelling will

ever subside. I am trying to get referred to a dr who specializes

in Graves Disease, but this is in another city. There are very few

drs who are specialists in this area. Working on this anyway. All

the best. Barb

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Barb. Do you know that protruding eyes are one of the markers

of Graves Disease ? Even once the disease is treated, the eyes stay

the same.

>

> At this point I don't think I had Graves disease. My thyroid was

removed because of papillary cancer. But I went to my eye dr 2 or 3

weeks ago because my eyes were always tearing and began to feel

hot. Eye doc told me my eyes had moved out some from my thyroid

stuff and are drier thus tearing to try to keep them moist. He has

me on an otc luquigel and eye drops. I keep them in business too !

When I get stronger, I will bug drs to look for other reasons for

the tearing.

>

> jane

>

> tt 11/7/05

> papca encap; vasc inva 12/5/05

Hi Jane: Thanks for responding. I have done a fair amt of research

on Graves Disease and yes I know that protruding eyes are a symptom

of Graves. When I was diagnosed with Graves my symptoms were

palpitations, nervousness, etc. I had no eye symptoms until I had

the radioiodine, and I have read that the eye condition can follow

treatment with radioiodine. My greatest concern is now that I have

this eye disease, it seems that very little is known about what to

do about it. Eye drs. keep an eye on it because pressure can build

up and cause serious eye problems. Nothing is done if it doesn't

get to the point of bad vision problems/possible loss of vision. So

as far as I know, I just have to continue to live with these

problems. My current eye dr is not sure whether the dryness,

discomfort will ever go away. And I doubt that the swelling will

ever subside. I am trying to get referred to a dr who specializes

in Graves Disease, but this is in another city. There are very few

drs who are specialists in this area. Working on this anyway. All

the best. Barb

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi, Barb... Welcome...

I'll say this up front and maybe get it out of my system....

Your doc needs a swift kick in the family jewels.

Okay.. I think I'm better.

Nuking the gland (RAI) for Grave's slows or stops the hyper thyroid state, but does squat for the Grave's antibodies and they often go elsewhere to do their dirty deed.... usually the eyes.

The antibodies attack tissue behind the eyes... I can't remember for sure right now, but I think it's the muscles.... If someone else remembers, jump in....

The protruding eyes are pretty common, along with dry eyes. Rarely it reverses, more often then not it doesn't....

I was reading some stuff last spring, I think, about new surgery that they've been using to help... they enlarge/open up the area behind the eyes letting them protrude into the sinus cavities instead of out.. there has been good result with that both cosmetically and as far as comfort level for the eyes.... I've not had time to do anymore reading on what they've been able to do as far as dealing with the effects of the antibodies on the eyes and if they've come any further with treatment in that direction.

I'm NOT trying to be a poop or scare you.... just trying to pass on the little that I've read.. to give you a start to do some more digging... we can help.... The more that you know the better... you need to be kicking some doc butt or finding another doc that is willing to work with you and not blow you off....

We've not really talked much about TED here.... not that many have it.. we're mostly involved with hypo conditions... be it from Hashi's or destruction of the gland....

Have you checked the Grave's support group?

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/gravessupport/

They might be able to give you more specific info on TED there.

As for your meds... Do you happen to have copies of your labs so that we can see how all that part is going.....? How much gland function remains, how much med your getting and if it's the correct amount to give you proper thyroid hormone levels and such. It would be good to see what they are testing you for and if they are properly interpreting the results. Fluctuations in hormone levels and gland activity (if some remains) isn't going to be helpful with the TED to my way of thinking...

Topper ()

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:38:09 -0000 "caruba1barb" writes:

Hi allI am a new member - just logged on and wondering if anyone has any advice for me? In Feb. 2004 I had radioiodine treatment due to Graves Disease. About 3 weeks after treatment of my thyroid, I experienced severe swelling around my eyes - thought I had taken a severe allergic reaction. After many doctor's visits (was out of town skiing when first occurred), I was finally diagnosed with graves eye disease. Had never heard of it till then - was never told that I could develop this - believe it is associated to the radioiodine treatment as it occurred just after my treatment - had no symptoms of an eye disease prior to the radioiodine. The swelling has never actually gone away (although it lessened the summer of 2004) then worsened, and has stayed about the same since - almost two years now. The endo and eye specialist that I saw really had no suggestions for me - said would run its course (about 3 yrs), use tear drops, raise head when sleeping, ice eyes for swelling. Neither dr could give me anything that really worked to stop continual swelling appearance, and I have been told that the swelling will never go away even once the condition has subsided. It has actually changed my appearance - so much swelling especially above - up to my eyebrows, and from the sides - the eyelids really protrude. I have suffered with this eye condition (swelling around top and bottom, extreme dryness, problems focusing, sore/at times painful eyes) for almost 2 years now. I use a tremendous amount of tear drops - throughout day and night - keep them in business (ha!), as they are very expensive - with the amt that I use. Other than my eye condition, I have not felt really sick with my thyroid condition, although my TSH level has jumped from hypo to hyper about four times - I am now on .075mg of levothyroxine. I have tried to read as much as I can about this eye disease - but have not been able to come up with anything that will stop the swelling, help with tear production, etc. Would anyone on this site have any knowledge of this eye condition that might help me? I am not that familiar with the site, but I wonder also if there are archives of postings about thyroid eye disease - not sure how to bring that up yet. Any help would be appreciated - thanks for your help in this matter. Barb

[Guest guest]

Hi, Barb... Welcome...

I'll say this up front and maybe get it out of my system....

Your doc needs a swift kick in the family jewels.

Okay.. I think I'm better.

Nuking the gland (RAI) for Grave's slows or stops the hyper thyroid state, but does squat for the Grave's antibodies and they often go elsewhere to do their dirty deed.... usually the eyes.

The antibodies attack tissue behind the eyes... I can't remember for sure right now, but I think it's the muscles.... If someone else remembers, jump in....

The protruding eyes are pretty common, along with dry eyes. Rarely it reverses, more often then not it doesn't....

I was reading some stuff last spring, I think, about new surgery that they've been using to help... they enlarge/open up the area behind the eyes letting them protrude into the sinus cavities instead of out.. there has been good result with that both cosmetically and as far as comfort level for the eyes.... I've not had time to do anymore reading on what they've been able to do as far as dealing with the effects of the antibodies on the eyes and if they've come any further with treatment in that direction.

I'm NOT trying to be a poop or scare you.... just trying to pass on the little that I've read.. to give you a start to do some more digging... we can help.... The more that you know the better... you need to be kicking some doc butt or finding another doc that is willing to work with you and not blow you off....

We've not really talked much about TED here.... not that many have it.. we're mostly involved with hypo conditions... be it from Hashi's or destruction of the gland....

Have you checked the Grave's support group?

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/gravessupport/

They might be able to give you more specific info on TED there.

As for your meds... Do you happen to have copies of your labs so that we can see how all that part is going.....? How much gland function remains, how much med your getting and if it's the correct amount to give you proper thyroid hormone levels and such. It would be good to see what they are testing you for and if they are properly interpreting the results. Fluctuations in hormone levels and gland activity (if some remains) isn't going to be helpful with the TED to my way of thinking...

Topper ()

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:38:09 -0000 "caruba1barb" writes:

Hi allI am a new member - just logged on and wondering if anyone has any advice for me? In Feb. 2004 I had radioiodine treatment due to Graves Disease. About 3 weeks after treatment of my thyroid, I experienced severe swelling around my eyes - thought I had taken a severe allergic reaction. After many doctor's visits (was out of town skiing when first occurred), I was finally diagnosed with graves eye disease. Had never heard of it till then - was never told that I could develop this - believe it is associated to the radioiodine treatment as it occurred just after my treatment - had no symptoms of an eye disease prior to the radioiodine. The swelling has never actually gone away (although it lessened the summer of 2004) then worsened, and has stayed about the same since - almost two years now. The endo and eye specialist that I saw really had no suggestions for me - said would run its course (about 3 yrs), use tear drops, raise head when sleeping, ice eyes for swelling. Neither dr could give me anything that really worked to stop continual swelling appearance, and I have been told that the swelling will never go away even once the condition has subsided. It has actually changed my appearance - so much swelling especially above - up to my eyebrows, and from the sides - the eyelids really protrude. I have suffered with this eye condition (swelling around top and bottom, extreme dryness, problems focusing, sore/at times painful eyes) for almost 2 years now. I use a tremendous amount of tear drops - throughout day and night - keep them in business (ha!), as they are very expensive - with the amt that I use. Other than my eye condition, I have not felt really sick with my thyroid condition, although my TSH level has jumped from hypo to hyper about four times - I am now on .075mg of levothyroxine. I have tried to read as much as I can about this eye disease - but have not been able to come up with anything that will stop the swelling, help with tear production, etc. Would anyone on this site have any knowledge of this eye condition that might help me? I am not that familiar with the site, but I wonder also if there are archives of postings about thyroid eye disease - not sure how to bring that up yet. Any help would be appreciated - thanks for your help in this matter. Barb

[Guest guest]

Hi, Barb... Welcome...

I'll say this up front and maybe get it out of my system....

Your doc needs a swift kick in the family jewels.

Okay.. I think I'm better.

Nuking the gland (RAI) for Grave's slows or stops the hyper thyroid state, but does squat for the Grave's antibodies and they often go elsewhere to do their dirty deed.... usually the eyes.

The antibodies attack tissue behind the eyes... I can't remember for sure right now, but I think it's the muscles.... If someone else remembers, jump in....

The protruding eyes are pretty common, along with dry eyes. Rarely it reverses, more often then not it doesn't....

I was reading some stuff last spring, I think, about new surgery that they've been using to help... they enlarge/open up the area behind the eyes letting them protrude into the sinus cavities instead of out.. there has been good result with that both cosmetically and as far as comfort level for the eyes.... I've not had time to do anymore reading on what they've been able to do as far as dealing with the effects of the antibodies on the eyes and if they've come any further with treatment in that direction.

I'm NOT trying to be a poop or scare you.... just trying to pass on the little that I've read.. to give you a start to do some more digging... we can help.... The more that you know the better... you need to be kicking some doc butt or finding another doc that is willing to work with you and not blow you off....

We've not really talked much about TED here.... not that many have it.. we're mostly involved with hypo conditions... be it from Hashi's or destruction of the gland....

Have you checked the Grave's support group?

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/gravessupport/

They might be able to give you more specific info on TED there.

As for your meds... Do you happen to have copies of your labs so that we can see how all that part is going.....? How much gland function remains, how much med your getting and if it's the correct amount to give you proper thyroid hormone levels and such. It would be good to see what they are testing you for and if they are properly interpreting the results. Fluctuations in hormone levels and gland activity (if some remains) isn't going to be helpful with the TED to my way of thinking...

Topper ()

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:38:09 -0000 "caruba1barb" writes:

Hi allI am a new member - just logged on and wondering if anyone has any advice for me? In Feb. 2004 I had radioiodine treatment due to Graves Disease. About 3 weeks after treatment of my thyroid, I experienced severe swelling around my eyes - thought I had taken a severe allergic reaction. After many doctor's visits (was out of town skiing when first occurred), I was finally diagnosed with graves eye disease. Had never heard of it till then - was never told that I could develop this - believe it is associated to the radioiodine treatment as it occurred just after my treatment - had no symptoms of an eye disease prior to the radioiodine. The swelling has never actually gone away (although it lessened the summer of 2004) then worsened, and has stayed about the same since - almost two years now. The endo and eye specialist that I saw really had no suggestions for me - said would run its course (about 3 yrs), use tear drops, raise head when sleeping, ice eyes for swelling. Neither dr could give me anything that really worked to stop continual swelling appearance, and I have been told that the swelling will never go away even once the condition has subsided. It has actually changed my appearance - so much swelling especially above - up to my eyebrows, and from the sides - the eyelids really protrude. I have suffered with this eye condition (swelling around top and bottom, extreme dryness, problems focusing, sore/at times painful eyes) for almost 2 years now. I use a tremendous amount of tear drops - throughout day and night - keep them in business (ha!), as they are very expensive - with the amt that I use. Other than my eye condition, I have not felt really sick with my thyroid condition, although my TSH level has jumped from hypo to hyper about four times - I am now on .075mg of levothyroxine. I have tried to read as much as I can about this eye disease - but have not been able to come up with anything that will stop the swelling, help with tear production, etc. Would anyone on this site have any knowledge of this eye condition that might help me? I am not that familiar with the site, but I wonder also if there are archives of postings about thyroid eye disease - not sure how to bring that up yet. Any help would be appreciated - thanks for your help in this matter. Barb

[Guest guest]

Using my immagination here, Topper, I'm thinking that this is all very related to what happens inside of the inner ears with these antibodies, be they Hashi's or Grave's. Think about it---doesn't it seem logical that if these antibodies go for the enlarging and swelling of the muscles that hold the eyes in place, that they are also doing this inside the deep dark recesses of the soft inner ear tissues and even the brain (encephalopathy, of course, that's got a name of it's own also)? I personally think that it's all the same thing, from whichever thyroid autoimmune disease it comes from. It is known that some people can also experience the TED from Hashi's. As said, I still think that it's all basically the same thing, and that it can all happen when hypo also, yrs down the road, no matter which form of the disease.

Re: thyroid eye disease and graves

Hi, Barb... Welcome...

I'll say this up front and maybe get it out of my system....

Your doc needs a swift kick in the family jewels.

Okay.. I think I'm better.

Nuking the gland (RAI) for Grave's slows or stops the hyper thyroid state, but does squat for the Grave's antibodies and they often go elsewhere to do their dirty deed.... usually the eyes.

The antibodies attack tissue behind the eyes... I can't remember for sure right now, but I think it's the muscles.... If someone else remembers, jump in....

The protruding eyes are pretty common, along with dry eyes. Rarely it reverses, more often then not it doesn't....

I was reading some stuff last spring, I think, about new surgery that they've been using to help... they enlarge/open up the area behind the eyes letting them protrude into the sinus cavities instead of out.. there has been good result with that both cosmetically and as far as comfort level for the eyes.... I've not had time to do anymore reading on what they've been able to do as far as dealing with the effects of the antibodies on the eyes and if they've come any further with treatment in that direction.

I'm NOT trying to be a poop or scare you.... just trying to pass on the little that I've read.. to give you a start to do some more digging... we can help.... The more that you know the better... you need to be kicking some doc butt or finding another doc that is willing to work with you and not blow you off....

We've not really talked much about TED here.... not that many have it.. we're mostly involved with hypo conditions... be it from Hashi's or destruction of the gland....

Have you checked the Grave's support group?

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/gravessupport/

They might be able to give you more specific info on TED there.

As for your meds... Do you happen to have copies of your labs so that we can see how all that part is going.....? How much gland function remains, how much med your getting and if it's the correct amount to give you proper thyroid hormone levels and such. It would be good to see what they are testing you for and if they are properly interpreting the results. Fluctuations in hormone levels and gland activity (if some remains) isn't going to be helpful with the TED to my way of thinking...

Topper ()

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:38:09 -0000 "caruba1barb" writes:

Hi allI am a new member - just logged on and wondering if anyone has any advice for me? In Feb. 2004 I had radioiodine treatment due to Graves Disease. About 3 weeks after treatment of my thyroid, I experienced severe swelling around my eyes - thought I had taken a severe allergic reaction. After many doctor's visits (was out of town skiing when first occurred), I was finally diagnosed with graves eye disease. Had never heard of it till then - was never told that I could develop this - believe it is associated to the radioiodine treatment as it occurred just after my treatment - had no symptoms of an eye disease prior to the radioiodine. The swelling has never actually gone away (although it lessened the summer of 2004) then worsened, and has stayed about the same since - almost two years now. The endo and eye specialist that I saw really had no suggestions for me - said would run its course (about 3 yrs), use tear drops, raise head when sleeping, ice eyes for swelling. Neither dr could give me anything that really worked to stop continual swelling appearance, and I have been told that the swelling will never go away even once the condition has subsided. It has actually changed my appearance - so much swelling especially above - up to my eyebrows, and from the sides - the eyelids really protrude. I have suffered with this eye condition (swelling around top and bottom, extreme dryness, problems focusing, sore/at times painful eyes) for almost 2 years now. I use a tremendous amount of tear drops - throughout day and night - keep them in business (ha!), as they are very expensive - with the amt that I use. Other than my eye condition, I have not felt really sick with my thyroid condition, although my TSH level has jumped from hypo to hyper about four times - I am now on .075mg of levothyroxine. I have tried to read as much as I can about this eye disease - but have not been able to come up with anything that will stop the swelling, help with tear production, etc. Would anyone on this site have any knowledge of this eye condition that might help me? I am not that familiar with the site, but I wonder also if there are archives of postings about thyroid eye disease - not sure how to bring that up yet. Any help would be appreciated - thanks for your help in this matter. Barb

[Guest guest]

Using my immagination here, Topper, I'm thinking that this is all very related to what happens inside of the inner ears with these antibodies, be they Hashi's or Grave's. Think about it---doesn't it seem logical that if these antibodies go for the enlarging and swelling of the muscles that hold the eyes in place, that they are also doing this inside the deep dark recesses of the soft inner ear tissues and even the brain (encephalopathy, of course, that's got a name of it's own also)? I personally think that it's all the same thing, from whichever thyroid autoimmune disease it comes from. It is known that some people can also experience the TED from Hashi's. As said, I still think that it's all basically the same thing, and that it can all happen when hypo also, yrs down the road, no matter which form of the disease.

Re: thyroid eye disease and graves

Hi, Barb... Welcome...

I'll say this up front and maybe get it out of my system....

Your doc needs a swift kick in the family jewels.

Okay.. I think I'm better.

Nuking the gland (RAI) for Grave's slows or stops the hyper thyroid state, but does squat for the Grave's antibodies and they often go elsewhere to do their dirty deed.... usually the eyes.

The antibodies attack tissue behind the eyes... I can't remember for sure right now, but I think it's the muscles.... If someone else remembers, jump in....

The protruding eyes are pretty common, along with dry eyes. Rarely it reverses, more often then not it doesn't....

I was reading some stuff last spring, I think, about new surgery that they've been using to help... they enlarge/open up the area behind the eyes letting them protrude into the sinus cavities instead of out.. there has been good result with that both cosmetically and as far as comfort level for the eyes.... I've not had time to do anymore reading on what they've been able to do as far as dealing with the effects of the antibodies on the eyes and if they've come any further with treatment in that direction.

I'm NOT trying to be a poop or scare you.... just trying to pass on the little that I've read.. to give you a start to do some more digging... we can help.... The more that you know the better... you need to be kicking some doc butt or finding another doc that is willing to work with you and not blow you off....

We've not really talked much about TED here.... not that many have it.. we're mostly involved with hypo conditions... be it from Hashi's or destruction of the gland....

Have you checked the Grave's support group?

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/gravessupport/

They might be able to give you more specific info on TED there.

As for your meds... Do you happen to have copies of your labs so that we can see how all that part is going.....? How much gland function remains, how much med your getting and if it's the correct amount to give you proper thyroid hormone levels and such. It would be good to see what they are testing you for and if they are properly interpreting the results. Fluctuations in hormone levels and gland activity (if some remains) isn't going to be helpful with the TED to my way of thinking...

Topper ()

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:38:09 -0000 "caruba1barb" writes:

Hi allI am a new member - just logged on and wondering if anyone has any advice for me? In Feb. 2004 I had radioiodine treatment due to Graves Disease. About 3 weeks after treatment of my thyroid, I experienced severe swelling around my eyes - thought I had taken a severe allergic reaction. After many doctor's visits (was out of town skiing when first occurred), I was finally diagnosed with graves eye disease. Had never heard of it till then - was never told that I could develop this - believe it is associated to the radioiodine treatment as it occurred just after my treatment - had no symptoms of an eye disease prior to the radioiodine. The swelling has never actually gone away (although it lessened the summer of 2004) then worsened, and has stayed about the same since - almost two years now. The endo and eye specialist that I saw really had no suggestions for me - said would run its course (about 3 yrs), use tear drops, raise head when sleeping, ice eyes for swelling. Neither dr could give me anything that really worked to stop continual swelling appearance, and I have been told that the swelling will never go away even once the condition has subsided. It has actually changed my appearance - so much swelling especially above - up to my eyebrows, and from the sides - the eyelids really protrude. I have suffered with this eye condition (swelling around top and bottom, extreme dryness, problems focusing, sore/at times painful eyes) for almost 2 years now. I use a tremendous amount of tear drops - throughout day and night - keep them in business (ha!), as they are very expensive - with the amt that I use. Other than my eye condition, I have not felt really sick with my thyroid condition, although my TSH level has jumped from hypo to hyper about four times - I am now on .075mg of levothyroxine. I have tried to read as much as I can about this eye disease - but have not been able to come up with anything that will stop the swelling, help with tear production, etc. Would anyone on this site have any knowledge of this eye condition that might help me? I am not that familiar with the site, but I wonder also if there are archives of postings about thyroid eye disease - not sure how to bring that up yet. Any help would be appreciated - thanks for your help in this matter. Barb

[Guest guest]

Using my immagination here, Topper, I'm thinking that this is all very related to what happens inside of the inner ears with these antibodies, be they Hashi's or Grave's. Think about it---doesn't it seem logical that if these antibodies go for the enlarging and swelling of the muscles that hold the eyes in place, that they are also doing this inside the deep dark recesses of the soft inner ear tissues and even the brain (encephalopathy, of course, that's got a name of it's own also)? I personally think that it's all the same thing, from whichever thyroid autoimmune disease it comes from. It is known that some people can also experience the TED from Hashi's. As said, I still think that it's all basically the same thing, and that it can all happen when hypo also, yrs down the road, no matter which form of the disease.

Re: thyroid eye disease and graves

Hi, Barb... Welcome...

I'll say this up front and maybe get it out of my system....

Your doc needs a swift kick in the family jewels.

Okay.. I think I'm better.

Nuking the gland (RAI) for Grave's slows or stops the hyper thyroid state, but does squat for the Grave's antibodies and they often go elsewhere to do their dirty deed.... usually the eyes.

The antibodies attack tissue behind the eyes... I can't remember for sure right now, but I think it's the muscles.... If someone else remembers, jump in....

The protruding eyes are pretty common, along with dry eyes. Rarely it reverses, more often then not it doesn't....

I was reading some stuff last spring, I think, about new surgery that they've been using to help... they enlarge/open up the area behind the eyes letting them protrude into the sinus cavities instead of out.. there has been good result with that both cosmetically and as far as comfort level for the eyes.... I've not had time to do anymore reading on what they've been able to do as far as dealing with the effects of the antibodies on the eyes and if they've come any further with treatment in that direction.

I'm NOT trying to be a poop or scare you.... just trying to pass on the little that I've read.. to give you a start to do some more digging... we can help.... The more that you know the better... you need to be kicking some doc butt or finding another doc that is willing to work with you and not blow you off....

We've not really talked much about TED here.... not that many have it.. we're mostly involved with hypo conditions... be it from Hashi's or destruction of the gland....

Have you checked the Grave's support group?

http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/gravessupport/

They might be able to give you more specific info on TED there.

As for your meds... Do you happen to have copies of your labs so that we can see how all that part is going.....? How much gland function remains, how much med your getting and if it's the correct amount to give you proper thyroid hormone levels and such. It would be good to see what they are testing you for and if they are properly interpreting the results. Fluctuations in hormone levels and gland activity (if some remains) isn't going to be helpful with the TED to my way of thinking...

Topper ()

On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:38:09 -0000 "caruba1barb" writes:

Hi allI am a new member - just logged on and wondering if anyone has any advice for me? In Feb. 2004 I had radioiodine treatment due to Graves Disease. About 3 weeks after treatment of my thyroid, I experienced severe swelling around my eyes - thought I had taken a severe allergic reaction. After many doctor's visits (was out of town skiing when first occurred), I was finally diagnosed with graves eye disease. Had never heard of it till then - was never told that I could develop this - believe it is associated to the radioiodine treatment as it occurred just after my treatment - had no symptoms of an eye disease prior to the radioiodine. The swelling has never actually gone away (although it lessened the summer of 2004) then worsened, and has stayed about the same since - almost two years now. The endo and eye specialist that I saw really had no suggestions for me - said would run its course (about 3 yrs), use tear drops, raise head when sleeping, ice eyes for swelling. Neither dr could give me anything that really worked to stop continual swelling appearance, and I have been told that the swelling will never go away even once the condition has subsided. It has actually changed my appearance - so much swelling especially above - up to my eyebrows, and from the sides - the eyelids really protrude. I have suffered with this eye condition (swelling around top and bottom, extreme dryness, problems focusing, sore/at times painful eyes) for almost 2 years now. I use a tremendous amount of tear drops - throughout day and night - keep them in business (ha!), as they are very expensive - with the amt that I use. Other than my eye condition, I have not felt really sick with my thyroid condition, although my TSH level has jumped from hypo to hyper about four times - I am now on .075mg of levothyroxine. I have tried to read as much as I can about this eye disease - but have not been able to come up with anything that will stop the swelling, help with tear production, etc. Would anyone on this site have any knowledge of this eye condition that might help me? I am not that familiar with the site, but I wonder also if there are archives of postings about thyroid eye disease - not sure how to bring that up yet. Any help would be appreciated - thanks for your help in this matter. Barb

[Guest guest]

In the medical books it does say that the TED can happen as many as 20 yrs down the road, after the Grave's has manifested in other ways.

Re: thyroid eye disease and graves

Hi Barb. Do you know that protruding eyes are one of the markers of Graves Disease ? Even once the disease is treated, the eyes stay the same.

At this point I don't think I had Graves disease. My thyroid was removed because of papillary cancer. But I went to my eye dr 2 or 3 weeks ago because my eyes were always tearing and began to feel hot. Eye doc told me my eyes had moved out some from my thyroid stuff and are drier thus tearing to try to keep them moist. He has me on an otc luquigel and eye drops. I keep them in business too ! When I get stronger, I will bug drs to look for other reasons for the tearing.

jane

[Guest guest]

In the medical books it does say that the TED can happen as many as 20 yrs down the road, after the Grave's has manifested in other ways.

Re: thyroid eye disease and graves

Hi Barb. Do you know that protruding eyes are one of the markers of Graves Disease ? Even once the disease is treated, the eyes stay the same.

At this point I don't think I had Graves disease. My thyroid was removed because of papillary cancer. But I went to my eye dr 2 or 3 weeks ago because my eyes were always tearing and began to feel hot. Eye doc told me my eyes had moved out some from my thyroid stuff and are drier thus tearing to try to keep them moist. He has me on an otc luquigel and eye drops. I keep them in business too ! When I get stronger, I will bug drs to look for other reasons for the tearing.

jane

[Guest guest]

Does it go after mucous membrane..? I couldn't remember for sure, I thought muscles yesterday, but wasn't sure.... I'll have to read up on that part again.. .if it is mucous membranes.. that makes sense.. that it could also be affecting the ears and pressure on brain matter....

.... I wonder.... is that part of brain fog and the pressure in the head, overall, that some have mentioned?

Time to dig out Thyroid Manager again! ( for those that haven't checked it out www.thyroidmanager.org is an online thyroid reference manual)

Topper ()"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in hand, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO what a ride!"

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 04:33:56 -0600 " " writes:

Using my immagination here, Topper, I'm thinking that this is all very related to what happens inside of the inner ears with these antibodies, be they Hashi's or Grave's. Think about it---doesn't it seem logical that if these antibodies go for the enlarging and swelling of the muscles that hold the eyes in place, that they are also doing this inside the deep dark recesses of the soft inner ear tissues and even the brain (encephalopathy, of course, that's got a name of it's own also)? I personally think that it's all the same thing, from whichever thyroid autoimmune disease it comes from. It is known that some people can also experience the TED from Hashi's. As said, I still think that it's all basically the same thing, and that it can all happen when hypo also, yrs down the road, no matter which form of the disease.

[Guest guest]

Does it go after mucous membrane..? I couldn't remember for sure, I thought muscles yesterday, but wasn't sure.... I'll have to read up on that part again.. .if it is mucous membranes.. that makes sense.. that it could also be affecting the ears and pressure on brain matter....

.... I wonder.... is that part of brain fog and the pressure in the head, overall, that some have mentioned?

Time to dig out Thyroid Manager again! ( for those that haven't checked it out www.thyroidmanager.org is an online thyroid reference manual)

Topper ()"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in hand, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO what a ride!"

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 04:33:56 -0600 " " writes:

Using my immagination here, Topper, I'm thinking that this is all very related to what happens inside of the inner ears with these antibodies, be they Hashi's or Grave's. Think about it---doesn't it seem logical that if these antibodies go for the enlarging and swelling of the muscles that hold the eyes in place, that they are also doing this inside the deep dark recesses of the soft inner ear tissues and even the brain (encephalopathy, of course, that's got a name of it's own also)? I personally think that it's all the same thing, from whichever thyroid autoimmune disease it comes from. It is known that some people can also experience the TED from Hashi's. As said, I still think that it's all basically the same thing, and that it can all happen when hypo also, yrs down the road, no matter which form of the disease.

[Guest guest]

Does it go after mucous membrane..? I couldn't remember for sure, I thought muscles yesterday, but wasn't sure.... I'll have to read up on that part again.. .if it is mucous membranes.. that makes sense.. that it could also be affecting the ears and pressure on brain matter....

.... I wonder.... is that part of brain fog and the pressure in the head, overall, that some have mentioned?

Time to dig out Thyroid Manager again! ( for those that haven't checked it out www.thyroidmanager.org is an online thyroid reference manual)

Topper ()"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in hand, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO what a ride!"

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 04:33:56 -0600 " " writes:

Using my immagination here, Topper, I'm thinking that this is all very related to what happens inside of the inner ears with these antibodies, be they Hashi's or Grave's. Think about it---doesn't it seem logical that if these antibodies go for the enlarging and swelling of the muscles that hold the eyes in place, that they are also doing this inside the deep dark recesses of the soft inner ear tissues and even the brain (encephalopathy, of course, that's got a name of it's own also)? I personally think that it's all the same thing, from whichever thyroid autoimmune disease it comes from. It is known that some people can also experience the TED from Hashi's. As said, I still think that it's all basically the same thing, and that it can all happen when hypo also, yrs down the road, no matter which form of the disease.

[Guest guest]

Check out Meniere"s........an autoimmune problem affecting the ears

Re: thyroid eye disease and graves

Does it go after mucous membrane..? I couldn't remember for sure, I thought muscles yesterday, but wasn't sure.... I'll have to read up on that part again.. .if it is mucous membranes.. that makes sense.. that it could also be affecting the ears and pressure on brain matter....

.... I wonder.... is that part of brain fog and the pressure in the head, overall, that some have mentioned?

Time to dig out Thyroid Manager again! ( for those that haven't checked it out www.thyroidmanager.org is an online thyroid reference manual)

Topper ()"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in hand, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO what a ride!"

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 04:33:56 -0600 " " writes:

Using my immagination here, Topper, I'm thinking that this is all very related to what happens inside of the inner ears with these antibodies, be they Hashi's or Grave's. Think about it---doesn't it seem logical that if these antibodies go for the enlarging and swelling of the muscles that hold the eyes in place, that they are also doing this inside the deep dark recesses of the soft inner ear tissues and even the brain (encephalopathy, of course, that's got a name of it's own also)? I personally think that it's all the same thing, from whichever thyroid autoimmune disease it comes from. It is known that some people can also experience the TED from Hashi's. As said, I still think that it's all basically the same thing, and that it can all happen when hypo also, yrs down the road, no matter which form of the disease.

[Guest guest]

Check out Meniere"s........an autoimmune problem affecting the ears

Re: thyroid eye disease and graves

Does it go after mucous membrane..? I couldn't remember for sure, I thought muscles yesterday, but wasn't sure.... I'll have to read up on that part again.. .if it is mucous membranes.. that makes sense.. that it could also be affecting the ears and pressure on brain matter....

.... I wonder.... is that part of brain fog and the pressure in the head, overall, that some have mentioned?

Time to dig out Thyroid Manager again! ( for those that haven't checked it out www.thyroidmanager.org is an online thyroid reference manual)

Topper ()"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in hand, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO what a ride!"

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 04:33:56 -0600 " " writes:

Using my immagination here, Topper, I'm thinking that this is all very related to what happens inside of the inner ears with these antibodies, be they Hashi's or Grave's. Think about it---doesn't it seem logical that if these antibodies go for the enlarging and swelling of the muscles that hold the eyes in place, that they are also doing this inside the deep dark recesses of the soft inner ear tissues and even the brain (encephalopathy, of course, that's got a name of it's own also)? I personally think that it's all the same thing, from whichever thyroid autoimmune disease it comes from. It is known that some people can also experience the TED from Hashi's. As said, I still think that it's all basically the same thing, and that it can all happen when hypo also, yrs down the road, no matter which form of the disease.

[Guest guest]

Check out Meniere"s........an autoimmune problem affecting the ears

Re: thyroid eye disease and graves

Does it go after mucous membrane..? I couldn't remember for sure, I thought muscles yesterday, but wasn't sure.... I'll have to read up on that part again.. .if it is mucous membranes.. that makes sense.. that it could also be affecting the ears and pressure on brain matter....

.... I wonder.... is that part of brain fog and the pressure in the head, overall, that some have mentioned?

Time to dig out Thyroid Manager again! ( for those that haven't checked it out www.thyroidmanager.org is an online thyroid reference manual)

Topper ()"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in hand, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO what a ride!"

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 04:33:56 -0600 " " writes:

Using my immagination here, Topper, I'm thinking that this is all very related to what happens inside of the inner ears with these antibodies, be they Hashi's or Grave's. Think about it---doesn't it seem logical that if these antibodies go for the enlarging and swelling of the muscles that hold the eyes in place, that they are also doing this inside the deep dark recesses of the soft inner ear tissues and even the brain (encephalopathy, of course, that's got a name of it's own also)? I personally think that it's all the same thing, from whichever thyroid autoimmune disease it comes from. It is known that some people can also experience the TED from Hashi's. As said, I still think that it's all basically the same thing, and that it can all happen when hypo also, yrs down the road, no matter which form of the disease.

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Barb. Do you know that protruding eyes are one of the markers

of Graves Disease ? Even once the disease is treated, the eyes stay

the same.

>

> At this point I don't think I had Graves disease. My thyroid was

removed because of papillary cancer. But I went to my eye dr 2 or 3

weeks ago because my eyes were always tearing and began to feel

hot. Eye doc told me my eyes had moved out some from my thyroid

stuff and are drier thus tearing to try to keep them moist. He has

me on an otc luquigel and eye drops. I keep them in business too !

When I get stronger, I will bug drs to look for other reasons for

the tearing.

>

> jane

>

> tt 11/7/05

> papca encap; vasc inva 12/5/05

> rai 139 11/25/05

> wbs 12/2/05 normal post tt

> levothyroxine 200 12/9/05

>

The antibody for Grave's also attacks the muscles behind the eyes.

RAi does increase antibody levels and so does being hypo or

hyper..although the Thyroid eye disease tends to run its own course.

With swelling behind the eyes the eye balls tend to protrude..this

causes the eyelids not to close properly at night when you are

sleeping and causes the dryness..this dryness in turn causes the

abrasion and small tears in the cornea. An eye specialist familair

with TED will measure your eyes to determine if this is the cause..

The main treatment here is to keep the eyes moist to prevent any

damage and iritation.

Use the drops during the day and the liquidgel ( hoping its an

ointment) at night but also tape your eyes closed at night..this

alone will help prevent most damage.

Kats3boys

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Barb. Do you know that protruding eyes are one of the markers

of Graves Disease ? Even once the disease is treated, the eyes stay

the same.

>

> At this point I don't think I had Graves disease. My thyroid was

removed because of papillary cancer. But I went to my eye dr 2 or 3

weeks ago because my eyes were always tearing and began to feel

hot. Eye doc told me my eyes had moved out some from my thyroid

stuff and are drier thus tearing to try to keep them moist. He has

me on an otc luquigel and eye drops. I keep them in business too !

When I get stronger, I will bug drs to look for other reasons for

the tearing.

>

> jane

>

> tt 11/7/05

> papca encap; vasc inva 12/5/05

> rai 139 11/25/05

> wbs 12/2/05 normal post tt

> levothyroxine 200 12/9/05

>

The antibody for Grave's also attacks the muscles behind the eyes.

RAi does increase antibody levels and so does being hypo or

hyper..although the Thyroid eye disease tends to run its own course.

With swelling behind the eyes the eye balls tend to protrude..this

causes the eyelids not to close properly at night when you are

sleeping and causes the dryness..this dryness in turn causes the

abrasion and small tears in the cornea. An eye specialist familair

with TED will measure your eyes to determine if this is the cause..

The main treatment here is to keep the eyes moist to prevent any

damage and iritation.

Use the drops during the day and the liquidgel ( hoping its an

ointment) at night but also tape your eyes closed at night..this

alone will help prevent most damage.

Kats3boys

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb. Do you know that protruding eyes are one of the markers

of Graves Disease ? Even once the disease is treated, the eyes stay

the same.

TED runs it one course, usually 18 months..although symptoms of

either hypo or hyper can exaggerate the condition. Nothing other

than treating the symptoms can be done while TED is active.

Once the TED( Thyroid Eye Disease) is no longer active the eyes will

return to normal..in extreme cases when they do not then surgery

canbe performed to help.

It is important to treat the symptoms though to minimize any long

term damage while the disease runs it course and to also take care

of your mental health as in extreme cases the eyes can make the face

disfigured and this can do damage to your mental health.( afraid to

go out in public, becoming secluded etc)

Most cases of TED will go back to normal and on the grave's board

the reccomendation seems to be 1 tsp of flaxseed oil to help them

while they are active and treating the symptoms.

Also although surgery is available it should not be done while the

TED is active but only if needed after..

Kats3boys

[Guest guest]

Hi Barb. Do you know that protruding eyes are one of the markers

of Graves Disease ? Even once the disease is treated, the eyes stay

the same.

TED runs it one course, usually 18 months..although symptoms of

either hypo or hyper can exaggerate the condition. Nothing other

than treating the symptoms can be done while TED is active.

Once the TED( Thyroid Eye Disease) is no longer active the eyes will

return to normal..in extreme cases when they do not then surgery

canbe performed to help.

It is important to treat the symptoms though to minimize any long

term damage while the disease runs it course and to also take care

of your mental health as in extreme cases the eyes can make the face

disfigured and this can do damage to your mental health.( afraid to

go out in public, becoming secluded etc)

Most cases of TED will go back to normal and on the grave's board

the reccomendation seems to be 1 tsp of flaxseed oil to help them

while they are active and treating the symptoms.

Also although surgery is available it should not be done while the

TED is active but only if needed after..

Kats3boys

[Guest guest]

Catching up on messages again cause of doing overtime here and there. Anyway, frankly, I think that what's manifested as severe "brain fog" in hypo, if thought about in another deeper way, could be very scary, if you use your immagination. In other words, I believe that brain fog is simply a bit lesser manifestation of what is KNOWN as encephalopathy. I'm thinking that if the antibodies from either disease can play havoc with other soft tissue and muscle and such, then they are also causing tissue swelling inside the head, around the cavities up there. That would include ANYthing that's up there in our noodles. Though I haven't read it, it's the only thing that makes sense to me. Why wouldn't it do this, if it's doing everything else? Yes, Meneire's has been found to be autoimmune in nature, or is highly suspected to be. I don't guess I'll ever know exactly what my diagnosis is because my diagnosis wasn't complete for the vertigo or anything related to it, it's only my best guess.

Re: thyroid eye disease and graves

Does it go after mucous membrane..? I couldn't remember for sure, I thought muscles yesterday, but wasn't sure.... I'll have to read up on that part again.. .if it is mucous membranes.. that makes sense.. that it could also be affecting the ears and pressure on brain matter....

.... I wonder.... is that part of brain fog and the pressure in the head, overall, that some have mentioned?

Time to dig out Thyroid Manager again! ( for those that haven't checked it out www.thyroidmanager.org is an online thyroid reference manual)

Topper ()"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in hand, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO what a ride!"

[Guest guest]

that makes sense to me but wouldn't they find that if they do a brain scan like an MRI which I had a few weeks ago and they say they found nothing. they were looking for the reason for my oh so severe headaches.Now it does worry me that they say they found nothing cause well does that mean they didn't even find my brain>>>LOL. I know several people at times wonder if I really have one...like my hubby. Especially when he saw me put peanut butter in the frig, what can I say I was in a fog just wanted to finish cleaning up so I could sit a minute and rest my back was killing me. But anyway you would think and MRI on the brain would find something like that wouldn't you. Tina wrote: Catching up on messages again cause of doing overtime here and there. Anyway, frankly, I think that what's manifested as severe "brain fog" in hypo, if thought about in another deeper way, could be very scary, if you use your immagination. In other words, I believe that brain fog is simply a bit lesser manifestation of what is KNOWN as encephalopathy. I'm thinking that if the antibodies from either disease can play havoc with other soft tissue and muscle and such, then they are also causing tissue swelling inside the head, around the cavities up there. That would include ANYthing that's up there in our noodles. Though I haven't read it, it's the only thing that makes sense to me. Why wouldn't it do this, if it's doing everything else? Yes, Meneire's has been found to be autoimmune in nature, or is highly suspected to be. I don't guess I'll ever know exactly what my diagnosis is because my diagnosis wasn't complete for

the vertigo or anything related to it, it's only my best guess. Re: thyroid eye disease and graves Does it go after mucous membrane..? I couldn't remember for sure, I thought muscles yesterday, but wasn't sure.... I'll have to read up on that part again.. .if it is mucous membranes.. that makes sense.. that it could also be affecting the ears and pressure on brain matter.... ... I wonder.... is that part of brain fog and the pressure in the head, overall, that some have mentioned? Time to dig out Thyroid Manager again! ( for those that haven't checked it out www.thyroidmanager.org is an online thyroid reference manual) Topper ()"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in hand, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO what a

ride!" Tina JJOIPPKOOUNUJOP'IUJK0--9UTINA MK-099-99\OP'[-0 I]9IKI099 U[

Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.

[Guest guest]

that makes sense to me but wouldn't they find that if they do a brain scan like an MRI which I had a few weeks ago and they say they found nothing. they were looking for the reason for my oh so severe headaches.Now it does worry me that they say they found nothing cause well does that mean they didn't even find my brain>>>LOL. I know several people at times wonder if I really have one...like my hubby. Especially when he saw me put peanut butter in the frig, what can I say I was in a fog just wanted to finish cleaning up so I could sit a minute and rest my back was killing me. But anyway you would think and MRI on the brain would find something like that wouldn't you. Tina wrote: Catching up on messages again cause of doing overtime here and there. Anyway, frankly, I think that what's manifested as severe "brain fog" in hypo, if thought about in another deeper way, could be very scary, if you use your immagination. In other words, I believe that brain fog is simply a bit lesser manifestation of what is KNOWN as encephalopathy. I'm thinking that if the antibodies from either disease can play havoc with other soft tissue and muscle and such, then they are also causing tissue swelling inside the head, around the cavities up there. That would include ANYthing that's up there in our noodles. Though I haven't read it, it's the only thing that makes sense to me. Why wouldn't it do this, if it's doing everything else? Yes, Meneire's has been found to be autoimmune in nature, or is highly suspected to be. I don't guess I'll ever know exactly what my diagnosis is because my diagnosis wasn't complete for

the vertigo or anything related to it, it's only my best guess. Re: thyroid eye disease and graves Does it go after mucous membrane..? I couldn't remember for sure, I thought muscles yesterday, but wasn't sure.... I'll have to read up on that part again.. .if it is mucous membranes.. that makes sense.. that it could also be affecting the ears and pressure on brain matter.... ... I wonder.... is that part of brain fog and the pressure in the head, overall, that some have mentioned? Time to dig out Thyroid Manager again! ( for those that haven't checked it out www.thyroidmanager.org is an online thyroid reference manual) Topper ()"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body. But rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in hand, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO-HOO what a

ride!" Tina JJOIPPKOOUNUJOP'IUJK0--9UTINA MK-099-99\OP'[-0 I]9IKI099 U[

Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever.