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Posted

Its not just bpd that is considered resistant to treatment or untreatable, its

*all* Axis II disorders: all the personality disorders and mental retardation.

From what I understand, those with Axis I disorders like depression are upset by

their condition. They realize that something is wrong with them, their

condition frightens them (or their family) so they are urged or self-motivated

to seek treatment and tend to stay in treatment and comply with their

medication. Since their condition results from some kind of chemical imbalance

in the brain, and since medications have been found that restore the particular,

specific chemical balance that affects their condition, the Axis I patients are

more amenable to talk therapy and are more cooperative, compliant patients.

I think that what is so difficult about those with bpd is that while they

*can't* control their perceptions of reality: the world around them seems

hostile and invalidating, they have at least some control over how they react to

it. My nada could rein in her horrible hair-trigger temper and her fears of

abandonment and her envy and fragile ego and self-pity in public, at least until

recently. Now her ability to control her reactions is deteriorating, possibly

due to Alzheimers.

A Schizophrenic has no control over whether their hallucinations appear or not.

It has to do with their brain chemistry screwing up and becoming imbalanced, but

in at least one remarkable instance a man with schizophrenia was able to

understand and accept that his brain was betraying him, and he chose to

willfully ignore his hallucinations so that he could stay off medication and

continue working on his complex mathematical research. The schizophrenia meds

worked to eliminate his hallucinations, but he felt they also dulled his

intellect and he didn't want his intelligence or creativity impacted.

In a similar way, it seems to me that we are asking those with bpd to understand

and accept that there is something wrong with their brain.

Its like I was in a perpetual state of asking my mom to trust me when her brain

was telling her I was not to be trusted. " It's OK mom, relax. I'm a good

driver. I've never gotten a speeding ticket, I've never caused an accident.

I'll get us there in one piece. " Its my mom who was always a nervous, erratic

driver. Projecting her own shortcoming onto me is... insane.

But unlike the mathematical genius with schizophrenia, my nada could never and

can't ever, now, accept that there was/is something abnormal about *her*

personal perception of the world and her negative interpretation of it. To her,

her reactions of disappointment, rage, envy, paranoia and perfectionism are

perfectly normal and reasonable, and I'm lying to her (or Sister was/is lying to

her) and trying to trick her.

Its truly very sad. I so badly wish there could be a med that would work to

re-set the negative, invalidating perceptions and interpretations back to

normal. It would be worth its weight in platinum.

-Annie

>

>

> Well, I'm not disagreeing with you...I just have to ask because I genuinely am

trying to figure this out.

> Maybe I am making excuses for my mother because I don't want to believe SHE

WANTED to hurt me. Maybe I'm in denial.

>

> But why is it that a person with OCD or some other mental illness on the scale

of BPD (say, depression because I don't want to compare BPD to psychosis)...why

is it that those people CAN'T control their actions, but BPD people can?

> That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

>

> I know we're all angry and frustrated and irritated and have been repeatedly

hurt by our BPD parents. I think I've shared enough that you all are able to

see my mother is as textbook BPD as many of yours are. But I'm not so sure she

could control it. I feel like my father or some other family member should have

stepped in and forced her to get help.

>

> I'm just trying to understand why clinicians or whoever it is pick BPD out of

the hat to say they can control it, but none of the other people with other

forms of mental illness can.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Re: is BPD really mental illness?

>

>

>

>

> That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last night

> on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their use

> of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

>

> But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats, and

> calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

>

> One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

>

> BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break, are

> aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting others.

> They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> get their itch scrated so be it.

>

> Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> pout. Not my best side.

>

> The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

>

> One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in fact

> not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

>

> On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that his

> actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

>

> An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and aware

> when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to drive

> once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

>

> Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery and

> sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts that

> the choices and outcomes were still his.

>

> A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition of

> whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal verdict:

> guilty, but insane.

>

> Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the murderer

> with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is dead,

> and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> his thorazine in prison.

>

> Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking, he

> chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> violence , he is responsible.

>

> In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her his

> " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he chose

> for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> and that constituted enough of a law.

>

> And in that, he was very much like a BP.

>

> I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

>

> If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> an excuse, nor you with a justification.

>

> You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

>

> As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very true.

> They understand that something is not right. They can, because some do,

> choose to respond to therapy and improve.

>

> Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

>

> IMHO.

>

> Doug

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Its not just bpd that is considered resistant to treatment or untreatable, its

*all* Axis II disorders: all the personality disorders and mental retardation.

From what I understand, those with Axis I disorders like depression are upset by

their condition. They realize that something is wrong with them, their

condition frightens them (or their family) so they are urged or self-motivated

to seek treatment and tend to stay in treatment and comply with their

medication. Since their condition results from some kind of chemical imbalance

in the brain, and since medications have been found that restore the particular,

specific chemical balance that affects their condition, the Axis I patients are

more amenable to talk therapy and are more cooperative, compliant patients.

I think that what is so difficult about those with bpd is that while they

*can't* control their perceptions of reality: the world around them seems

hostile and invalidating, they have at least some control over how they react to

it. My nada could rein in her horrible hair-trigger temper and her fears of

abandonment and her envy and fragile ego and self-pity in public, at least until

recently. Now her ability to control her reactions is deteriorating, possibly

due to Alzheimers.

A Schizophrenic has no control over whether their hallucinations appear or not.

It has to do with their brain chemistry screwing up and becoming imbalanced, but

in at least one remarkable instance a man with schizophrenia was able to

understand and accept that his brain was betraying him, and he chose to

willfully ignore his hallucinations so that he could stay off medication and

continue working on his complex mathematical research. The schizophrenia meds

worked to eliminate his hallucinations, but he felt they also dulled his

intellect and he didn't want his intelligence or creativity impacted.

In a similar way, it seems to me that we are asking those with bpd to understand

and accept that there is something wrong with their brain.

Its like I was in a perpetual state of asking my mom to trust me when her brain

was telling her I was not to be trusted. " It's OK mom, relax. I'm a good

driver. I've never gotten a speeding ticket, I've never caused an accident.

I'll get us there in one piece. " Its my mom who was always a nervous, erratic

driver. Projecting her own shortcoming onto me is... insane.

But unlike the mathematical genius with schizophrenia, my nada could never and

can't ever, now, accept that there was/is something abnormal about *her*

personal perception of the world and her negative interpretation of it. To her,

her reactions of disappointment, rage, envy, paranoia and perfectionism are

perfectly normal and reasonable, and I'm lying to her (or Sister was/is lying to

her) and trying to trick her.

Its truly very sad. I so badly wish there could be a med that would work to

re-set the negative, invalidating perceptions and interpretations back to

normal. It would be worth its weight in platinum.

-Annie

>

>

> Well, I'm not disagreeing with you...I just have to ask because I genuinely am

trying to figure this out.

> Maybe I am making excuses for my mother because I don't want to believe SHE

WANTED to hurt me. Maybe I'm in denial.

>

> But why is it that a person with OCD or some other mental illness on the scale

of BPD (say, depression because I don't want to compare BPD to psychosis)...why

is it that those people CAN'T control their actions, but BPD people can?

> That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

>

> I know we're all angry and frustrated and irritated and have been repeatedly

hurt by our BPD parents. I think I've shared enough that you all are able to

see my mother is as textbook BPD as many of yours are. But I'm not so sure she

could control it. I feel like my father or some other family member should have

stepped in and forced her to get help.

>

> I'm just trying to understand why clinicians or whoever it is pick BPD out of

the hat to say they can control it, but none of the other people with other

forms of mental illness can.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Re: is BPD really mental illness?

>

>

>

>

> That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last night

> on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their use

> of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

>

> But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats, and

> calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

>

> One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

>

> BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break, are

> aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting others.

> They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> get their itch scrated so be it.

>

> Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> pout. Not my best side.

>

> The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

>

> One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in fact

> not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

>

> On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that his

> actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

>

> An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and aware

> when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to drive

> once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

>

> Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery and

> sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts that

> the choices and outcomes were still his.

>

> A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition of

> whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal verdict:

> guilty, but insane.

>

> Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the murderer

> with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is dead,

> and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> his thorazine in prison.

>

> Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking, he

> chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> violence , he is responsible.

>

> In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her his

> " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he chose

> for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> and that constituted enough of a law.

>

> And in that, he was very much like a BP.

>

> I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

>

> If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> an excuse, nor you with a justification.

>

> You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

>

> As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very true.

> They understand that something is not right. They can, because some do,

> choose to respond to therapy and improve.

>

> Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

>

> IMHO.

>

> Doug

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Its not just bpd that is considered resistant to treatment or untreatable, its

*all* Axis II disorders: all the personality disorders and mental retardation.

From what I understand, those with Axis I disorders like depression are upset by

their condition. They realize that something is wrong with them, their

condition frightens them (or their family) so they are urged or self-motivated

to seek treatment and tend to stay in treatment and comply with their

medication. Since their condition results from some kind of chemical imbalance

in the brain, and since medications have been found that restore the particular,

specific chemical balance that affects their condition, the Axis I patients are

more amenable to talk therapy and are more cooperative, compliant patients.

I think that what is so difficult about those with bpd is that while they

*can't* control their perceptions of reality: the world around them seems

hostile and invalidating, they have at least some control over how they react to

it. My nada could rein in her horrible hair-trigger temper and her fears of

abandonment and her envy and fragile ego and self-pity in public, at least until

recently. Now her ability to control her reactions is deteriorating, possibly

due to Alzheimers.

A Schizophrenic has no control over whether their hallucinations appear or not.

It has to do with their brain chemistry screwing up and becoming imbalanced, but

in at least one remarkable instance a man with schizophrenia was able to

understand and accept that his brain was betraying him, and he chose to

willfully ignore his hallucinations so that he could stay off medication and

continue working on his complex mathematical research. The schizophrenia meds

worked to eliminate his hallucinations, but he felt they also dulled his

intellect and he didn't want his intelligence or creativity impacted.

In a similar way, it seems to me that we are asking those with bpd to understand

and accept that there is something wrong with their brain.

Its like I was in a perpetual state of asking my mom to trust me when her brain

was telling her I was not to be trusted. " It's OK mom, relax. I'm a good

driver. I've never gotten a speeding ticket, I've never caused an accident.

I'll get us there in one piece. " Its my mom who was always a nervous, erratic

driver. Projecting her own shortcoming onto me is... insane.

But unlike the mathematical genius with schizophrenia, my nada could never and

can't ever, now, accept that there was/is something abnormal about *her*

personal perception of the world and her negative interpretation of it. To her,

her reactions of disappointment, rage, envy, paranoia and perfectionism are

perfectly normal and reasonable, and I'm lying to her (or Sister was/is lying to

her) and trying to trick her.

Its truly very sad. I so badly wish there could be a med that would work to

re-set the negative, invalidating perceptions and interpretations back to

normal. It would be worth its weight in platinum.

-Annie

>

>

> Well, I'm not disagreeing with you...I just have to ask because I genuinely am

trying to figure this out.

> Maybe I am making excuses for my mother because I don't want to believe SHE

WANTED to hurt me. Maybe I'm in denial.

>

> But why is it that a person with OCD or some other mental illness on the scale

of BPD (say, depression because I don't want to compare BPD to psychosis)...why

is it that those people CAN'T control their actions, but BPD people can?

> That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

>

> I know we're all angry and frustrated and irritated and have been repeatedly

hurt by our BPD parents. I think I've shared enough that you all are able to

see my mother is as textbook BPD as many of yours are. But I'm not so sure she

could control it. I feel like my father or some other family member should have

stepped in and forced her to get help.

>

> I'm just trying to understand why clinicians or whoever it is pick BPD out of

the hat to say they can control it, but none of the other people with other

forms of mental illness can.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Re: is BPD really mental illness?

>

>

>

>

> That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last night

> on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their use

> of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

>

> But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats, and

> calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

>

> One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

>

> BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break, are

> aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting others.

> They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> get their itch scrated so be it.

>

> Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> pout. Not my best side.

>

> The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

>

> One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in fact

> not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

>

> On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that his

> actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

>

> An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and aware

> when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to drive

> once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

>

> Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery and

> sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts that

> the choices and outcomes were still his.

>

> A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition of

> whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal verdict:

> guilty, but insane.

>

> Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the murderer

> with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is dead,

> and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> his thorazine in prison.

>

> Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking, he

> chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> violence , he is responsible.

>

> In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her his

> " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he chose

> for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> and that constituted enough of a law.

>

> And in that, he was very much like a BP.

>

> I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

>

> If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> an excuse, nor you with a justification.

>

> You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

>

> As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very true.

> They understand that something is not right. They can, because some do,

> choose to respond to therapy and improve.

>

> Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

>

> IMHO.

>

> Doug

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Good. Never disagree with me, because I m always right. See, I could a

been a BP!

On a serious note....

You wrote

I don't want to believe SHE WANTED to hurt me. Maybe I'm in denial.

I don t believe mine wanted to screw me up as she did. I can t make

that as a universal call, because one can be a BP and a genuinely mean,

evil person as well.

I do believe that my mom, and most BP s, simply want to hold onto what

they have, and avoid the painful, for them , work of changing, more than

they want to avoid hurting us. So while it is not deliberate, they

justify it as necessary , because a myriad of excuses that amount to:

It s all about them.

You wrote

But why is it that a person with OCD or some other mental illness on the

scale of BPD (say, depression because I don't want to compare BPD to

psychosis)...why is it that those people CAN'T control their actions,

but BPD people can?

I don t quite accept that premise. People with OCD find it difficult to

control their behaviors, not impossible. People with depression find it

difficult to motivate and be balanced in their emotions. Both of these

can also choose to seek therapy, or not, take meds, or not, and make

progress or not.

The same is true with BP. It is very difficult for them. I do not

minimize that. But I believe, based on my experiences and

observations, that BP s, and many other emotionally disturbed people,

can make choices. The homeless drunks and druggies in my town could

choose to get sober and spend the night in the mission, warm, clean,

fed. They choose to get high and sleep in abandoned houses or break

into cars.

The most profoundly mentally ill, who truly have no control or choice,

need to be hospitalized.

I maintain that if a BP can function to the extent of buying food,

dressing, wiping their own butt, they can choose to do the much harder

work and admit they have a problem, and seek, and accept help.

Most, in my experience do not. They are harder to treat and persuade to

choose change than an anorexic girl.

You wrote

But I'm not so sure she could control it. I feel like my father or some

other family member should have stepped in and forced her to get help.

Again, as I said above, she could not control it on her own, easily.

But she could choose to seek help. And I think we all must always bear

in mind that BP s, at need, can put their craziness aside and act the

perfect , charming, sane one, to make the family around them seem to be

the monsters. And if they can choose that for their purpose, then they

have the ability to choose control. They don t want to.

As to another family member forcing her: I tried to the extent I was

able to do interventions in her life. I determined that the truth is

this: No one, husband, child, parent, with any arguement, persuasion, or

indeed with a gun to their heads, can force a BP to choose change. It

is very analogous to an addict. Families can put pressure on them, or

draw boundaries that say if you do not get help, I ll be out of your

life. But in the final analysis, the BP has all the control in the

world. No amount of pressure can force their change.

Help is available. It is hard work, and scary as hell for them. But it

only happens if they decide, God I don t want to be like this anymore.

You wrote

I'm just trying to understand why clinicians or whoever it is pick BPD

out of the hat to say they can control it, but none of the other people

with other forms of mental illness can.

>

Again, your premise and understanding of mental illnesses is off base a

bit. BP s can, and do, choose very complex behaviors in order to

manipulate people, and even therapists, to get what they want. They are

able to turn it off and on. My own mother was afraid of and hated her

mother. She NEVER, ever, turned on any of the BP crap in front of her.

She FOGGED me to not tell my grandmother, because " she would have her

put in a mental institution. "

But with me, in private, to get the FOG effect she desired, it was full

blast all the time.

I shared recently in another post and anecdotal story. Mom had gone to

her family Dr. I get a call from his nurse, that mom has had a nervous

breakdown and can I please come take her to her psychiatrist. When I

get there, she is weeping in a chair, non stop. As we leave, she is all

stumbly and I have to ( FOG alert!!) grab her and steady her as we walk

out.

The split second we were outside the door and not being observed, the

tears dried up, the stumbling walk was gone. She refused to let me

drive her and come back for her car, she insisted on driving it home

first, then having me take her to the shrink. And she walked in calmly,

triumphantly and told the receptionist that Dr X had sent her to see Dr

Y because she just had a nervous breakdown in his office.

Yea, , I believe they have a great deal of control over it. Did

she want to cost me a days work? Maybe not, but she didnt care that she

did as long as she got her way.

Did your mom want to hurt you as she did? I don t know. But let s give

her the benefit of doubt and say no, that was not her intention. But

fact is, she was less concerned at the pain or discomfort you

experienced than she was about doing the hard things to deal with her

own emotions. Any human adult, who is not operating on the 3 year old

basis that I m the center of the universe, would do anything to stop the

things they do to their loved ones.

No BP gets better unless they choose to do so, and to co operate with

the therapy. Some do, most do not. I happen to believe they all have

the capacity to do so, but few have the will.

I could be wrong. But that is my opinion based on observation and

experience.

Doug

>

>

> That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

>

> I know we're all angry and frustrated and irritated and have been

repeatedly hurt by our BPD parents. I think I've shared enough that you

all are able to see my mother is as textbook BPD as many of yours are.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Re: is BPD really mental illness?

>

>

>

>

> That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last night

> on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their

use

> of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

>

> But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats,

and

> calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

>

> One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

>

> BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break,

are

> aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting others.

> They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> get their itch scrated so be it.

>

> Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> pout. Not my best side.

>

> The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

>

> One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in

fact

> not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

>

> On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that

his

> actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

>

> An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and aware

> when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to

drive

> once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

>

> Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery

and

> sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts that

> the choices and outcomes were still his.

>

> A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition

of

> whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal

verdict:

> guilty, but insane.

>

> Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the

murderer

> with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is dead,

> and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> his thorazine in prison.

>

> Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking,

he

> chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> violence , he is responsible.

>

> In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her

his

> " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he chose

> for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> and that constituted enough of a law.

>

> And in that, he was very much like a BP.

>

> I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

>

> If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> an excuse, nor you with a justification.

>

> You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

>

> As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very true.

> They understand that something is not right. They can, because some

do,

> choose to respond to therapy and improve.

>

> Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

>

> IMHO.

>

> Doug

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Good. Never disagree with me, because I m always right. See, I could a

been a BP!

On a serious note....

You wrote

I don't want to believe SHE WANTED to hurt me. Maybe I'm in denial.

I don t believe mine wanted to screw me up as she did. I can t make

that as a universal call, because one can be a BP and a genuinely mean,

evil person as well.

I do believe that my mom, and most BP s, simply want to hold onto what

they have, and avoid the painful, for them , work of changing, more than

they want to avoid hurting us. So while it is not deliberate, they

justify it as necessary , because a myriad of excuses that amount to:

It s all about them.

You wrote

But why is it that a person with OCD or some other mental illness on the

scale of BPD (say, depression because I don't want to compare BPD to

psychosis)...why is it that those people CAN'T control their actions,

but BPD people can?

I don t quite accept that premise. People with OCD find it difficult to

control their behaviors, not impossible. People with depression find it

difficult to motivate and be balanced in their emotions. Both of these

can also choose to seek therapy, or not, take meds, or not, and make

progress or not.

The same is true with BP. It is very difficult for them. I do not

minimize that. But I believe, based on my experiences and

observations, that BP s, and many other emotionally disturbed people,

can make choices. The homeless drunks and druggies in my town could

choose to get sober and spend the night in the mission, warm, clean,

fed. They choose to get high and sleep in abandoned houses or break

into cars.

The most profoundly mentally ill, who truly have no control or choice,

need to be hospitalized.

I maintain that if a BP can function to the extent of buying food,

dressing, wiping their own butt, they can choose to do the much harder

work and admit they have a problem, and seek, and accept help.

Most, in my experience do not. They are harder to treat and persuade to

choose change than an anorexic girl.

You wrote

But I'm not so sure she could control it. I feel like my father or some

other family member should have stepped in and forced her to get help.

Again, as I said above, she could not control it on her own, easily.

But she could choose to seek help. And I think we all must always bear

in mind that BP s, at need, can put their craziness aside and act the

perfect , charming, sane one, to make the family around them seem to be

the monsters. And if they can choose that for their purpose, then they

have the ability to choose control. They don t want to.

As to another family member forcing her: I tried to the extent I was

able to do interventions in her life. I determined that the truth is

this: No one, husband, child, parent, with any arguement, persuasion, or

indeed with a gun to their heads, can force a BP to choose change. It

is very analogous to an addict. Families can put pressure on them, or

draw boundaries that say if you do not get help, I ll be out of your

life. But in the final analysis, the BP has all the control in the

world. No amount of pressure can force their change.

Help is available. It is hard work, and scary as hell for them. But it

only happens if they decide, God I don t want to be like this anymore.

You wrote

I'm just trying to understand why clinicians or whoever it is pick BPD

out of the hat to say they can control it, but none of the other people

with other forms of mental illness can.

>

Again, your premise and understanding of mental illnesses is off base a

bit. BP s can, and do, choose very complex behaviors in order to

manipulate people, and even therapists, to get what they want. They are

able to turn it off and on. My own mother was afraid of and hated her

mother. She NEVER, ever, turned on any of the BP crap in front of her.

She FOGGED me to not tell my grandmother, because " she would have her

put in a mental institution. "

But with me, in private, to get the FOG effect she desired, it was full

blast all the time.

I shared recently in another post and anecdotal story. Mom had gone to

her family Dr. I get a call from his nurse, that mom has had a nervous

breakdown and can I please come take her to her psychiatrist. When I

get there, she is weeping in a chair, non stop. As we leave, she is all

stumbly and I have to ( FOG alert!!) grab her and steady her as we walk

out.

The split second we were outside the door and not being observed, the

tears dried up, the stumbling walk was gone. She refused to let me

drive her and come back for her car, she insisted on driving it home

first, then having me take her to the shrink. And she walked in calmly,

triumphantly and told the receptionist that Dr X had sent her to see Dr

Y because she just had a nervous breakdown in his office.

Yea, , I believe they have a great deal of control over it. Did

she want to cost me a days work? Maybe not, but she didnt care that she

did as long as she got her way.

Did your mom want to hurt you as she did? I don t know. But let s give

her the benefit of doubt and say no, that was not her intention. But

fact is, she was less concerned at the pain or discomfort you

experienced than she was about doing the hard things to deal with her

own emotions. Any human adult, who is not operating on the 3 year old

basis that I m the center of the universe, would do anything to stop the

things they do to their loved ones.

No BP gets better unless they choose to do so, and to co operate with

the therapy. Some do, most do not. I happen to believe they all have

the capacity to do so, but few have the will.

I could be wrong. But that is my opinion based on observation and

experience.

Doug

>

>

> That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

>

> I know we're all angry and frustrated and irritated and have been

repeatedly hurt by our BPD parents. I think I've shared enough that you

all are able to see my mother is as textbook BPD as many of yours are.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Re: is BPD really mental illness?

>

>

>

>

> That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last night

> on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their

use

> of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

>

> But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats,

and

> calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

>

> One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

>

> BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break,

are

> aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting others.

> They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> get their itch scrated so be it.

>

> Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> pout. Not my best side.

>

> The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

>

> One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in

fact

> not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

>

> On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that

his

> actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

>

> An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and aware

> when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to

drive

> once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

>

> Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery

and

> sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts that

> the choices and outcomes were still his.

>

> A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition

of

> whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal

verdict:

> guilty, but insane.

>

> Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the

murderer

> with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is dead,

> and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> his thorazine in prison.

>

> Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking,

he

> chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> violence , he is responsible.

>

> In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her

his

> " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he chose

> for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> and that constituted enough of a law.

>

> And in that, he was very much like a BP.

>

> I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

>

> If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> an excuse, nor you with a justification.

>

> You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

>

> As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very true.

> They understand that something is not right. They can, because some

do,

> choose to respond to therapy and improve.

>

> Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

>

> IMHO.

>

> Doug

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

I'm new to understanding that my mother has BPD, but what kills me is this

conundrum that you wrote, Doug:

" Did your mom want to hurt you as she did? I don t know. But let s give her

the benefit of doubt and say no, that was not her intention. But fact is, she

was less concerned at the pain or discomfort you

experienced than she was about doing the hard things to deal with her

own emotions. Any human adult, who is not operating on the 3 year old basis

that I m the center of the universe, would do anything to stop the things they

do to their loved ones. "

My mother's pain and discomfort was more important to her than not exposing me

to traumatic experiences and an unhappy childhood when I was young. And even

though I have forgiven both my parents for what happened in my childhood (only

emotional abuse--yes, I said " only " --geez), because the only way for me to grow

is to say, " yes I blame you for these scars but it doesn't do me any good to

wallow in it, I have to forgive, move on, and grow up " , assessing all these past

incidents through the BPD lens dregs up new anger, not just about the bad things

but about the good ones too. I'm viewing everything about my mother in a new

light, and I'm not sure I want to do that.

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Posted
Posted

I'm new to understanding that my mother has BPD, but what kills me is this

conundrum that you wrote, Doug:

" Did your mom want to hurt you as she did? I don t know. But let s give her

the benefit of doubt and say no, that was not her intention. But fact is, she

was less concerned at the pain or discomfort you

experienced than she was about doing the hard things to deal with her

own emotions. Any human adult, who is not operating on the 3 year old basis

that I m the center of the universe, would do anything to stop the things they

do to their loved ones. "

My mother's pain and discomfort was more important to her than not exposing me

to traumatic experiences and an unhappy childhood when I was young. And even

though I have forgiven both my parents for what happened in my childhood (only

emotional abuse--yes, I said " only " --geez), because the only way for me to grow

is to say, " yes I blame you for these scars but it doesn't do me any good to

wallow in it, I have to forgive, move on, and grow up " , assessing all these past

incidents through the BPD lens dregs up new anger, not just about the bad things

but about the good ones too. I'm viewing everything about my mother in a new

light, and I'm not sure I want to do that.

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Posted
Posted

I'm new to understanding that my mother has BPD, but what kills me is this

conundrum that you wrote, Doug:

" Did your mom want to hurt you as she did? I don t know. But let s give her

the benefit of doubt and say no, that was not her intention. But fact is, she

was less concerned at the pain or discomfort you

experienced than she was about doing the hard things to deal with her

own emotions. Any human adult, who is not operating on the 3 year old basis

that I m the center of the universe, would do anything to stop the things they

do to their loved ones. "

My mother's pain and discomfort was more important to her than not exposing me

to traumatic experiences and an unhappy childhood when I was young. And even

though I have forgiven both my parents for what happened in my childhood (only

emotional abuse--yes, I said " only " --geez), because the only way for me to grow

is to say, " yes I blame you for these scars but it doesn't do me any good to

wallow in it, I have to forgive, move on, and grow up " , assessing all these past

incidents through the BPD lens dregs up new anger, not just about the bad things

but about the good ones too. I'm viewing everything about my mother in a new

light, and I'm not sure I want to do that.

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Posted
Posted

Doug, I understand what you're saying. I need to reread this and take it all

in. I want to understand. Maybe that's part of my healing as well. I avoid the

train of thought that my mother could control it because admitting that meant

she didn't care about me. I remember her saying things like, " I don't know who

you think you are. You don't know how bad it can get. I will disown you. " This

varied sometimes from how she'd wished I was never born, how I had ruined her

life...

I just have to really think it over more. Thanks for your thoughts.

Re: is BPD really mental illness?

>

>

>

>

> That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last night

> on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their

use

> of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

>

> But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats,

and

> calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

>

> One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

>

> BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break,

are

> aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting others.

> They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> get their itch scrated so be it.

>

> Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> pout. Not my best side.

>

> The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

>

> One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in

fact

> not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

>

> On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that

his

> actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

>

> An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and aware

> when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to

drive

> once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

>

> Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery

and

> sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts that

> the choices and outcomes were still his.

>

> A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition

of

> whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal

verdict:

> guilty, but insane.

>

> Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the

murderer

> with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is dead,

> and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> his thorazine in prison.

>

> Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking,

he

> chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> violence , he is responsible.

>

> In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her

his

> " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he chose

> for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> and that constituted enough of a law.

>

> And in that, he was very much like a BP.

>

> I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

>

> If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> an excuse, nor you with a justification.

>

> You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

>

> As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very true.

> They understand that something is not right. They can, because some

do,

> choose to respond to therapy and improve.

>

> Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

>

> IMHO.

>

> Doug

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Share on other sites
Guest guest

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Posted
Posted

Doug, I understand what you're saying. I need to reread this and take it all

in. I want to understand. Maybe that's part of my healing as well. I avoid the

train of thought that my mother could control it because admitting that meant

she didn't care about me. I remember her saying things like, " I don't know who

you think you are. You don't know how bad it can get. I will disown you. " This

varied sometimes from how she'd wished I was never born, how I had ruined her

life...

I just have to really think it over more. Thanks for your thoughts.

Re: is BPD really mental illness?

>

>

>

>

> That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last night

> on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their

use

> of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

>

> But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats,

and

> calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

>

> One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

>

> BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break,

are

> aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting others.

> They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> get their itch scrated so be it.

>

> Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> pout. Not my best side.

>

> The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

>

> One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in

fact

> not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

>

> On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that

his

> actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

>

> An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and aware

> when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to

drive

> once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

>

> Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery

and

> sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts that

> the choices and outcomes were still his.

>

> A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition

of

> whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal

verdict:

> guilty, but insane.

>

> Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the

murderer

> with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is dead,

> and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> his thorazine in prison.

>

> Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking,

he

> chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> violence , he is responsible.

>

> In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her

his

> " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he chose

> for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> and that constituted enough of a law.

>

> And in that, he was very much like a BP.

>

> I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

>

> If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> an excuse, nor you with a justification.

>

> You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

>

> As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very true.

> They understand that something is not right. They can, because some

do,

> choose to respond to therapy and improve.

>

> Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

>

> IMHO.

>

> Doug

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

mental retardation may be resistant to treatment or not treatable with drugs

however the federal government and every public school system in America spends

millions of dollars on the mentally retarded to help them learn as much as they

can at their level. If I can teach a mentally retarded child with autistic

tendencies to read when every one else has given up on him then why can't a BP

improve? And since there are actual cases of BP's seeking help and improving

then the excues " My brain is different, I can't help it " is just that. I have

children in the public school system with cerebral palsy who are ten times more

involved motorically than Fada with his arthritis but these children work

desperately to improve. In contrast Fada would prefer to sit in his room and

feel sorry for himself and isn't happy unless he is miserable. He is the perfect

example of " it is better to curse the darkness than light a candle " Did I twist

that one around? Well we are in Oz. Whoa there goes a flying monkey!

Kay

> >

> >

> > Well, I'm not disagreeing with you...I just have to ask because I genuinely

am trying to figure this out.

> > Maybe I am making excuses for my mother because I don't want to believe SHE

WANTED to hurt me. Maybe I'm in denial.

> >

> > But why is it that a person with OCD or some other mental illness on the

scale of BPD (say, depression because I don't want to compare BPD to

psychosis)...why is it that those people CAN'T control their actions, but BPD

people can?

> > That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

> >

> > I know we're all angry and frustrated and irritated and have been repeatedly

hurt by our BPD parents. I think I've shared enough that you all are able to

see my mother is as textbook BPD as many of yours are. But I'm not so sure she

could control it. I feel like my father or some other family member should have

stepped in and forced her to get help.

> >

> > I'm just trying to understand why clinicians or whoever it is pick BPD out

of the hat to say they can control it, but none of the other people with other

forms of mental illness can.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Re: is BPD really mental illness?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last night

> > on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their use

> > of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

> >

> > But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> > dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats, and

> > calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> > mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

> >

> > One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

> >

> > BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break, are

> > aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting others.

> > They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> > of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> > outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> > get their itch scrated so be it.

> >

> > Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> > unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> > conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> > does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> > pout. Not my best side.

> >

> > The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> > experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

> >

> > One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> > water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in fact

> > not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

> >

> > On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that his

> > actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

> >

> > An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and aware

> > when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> > his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> > alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to drive

> > once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

> >

> > Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery and

> > sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> > acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts that

> > the choices and outcomes were still his.

> >

> > A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition of

> > whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal verdict:

> > guilty, but insane.

> >

> > Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the murderer

> > with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is dead,

> > and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> > fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> > time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> > his thorazine in prison.

> >

> > Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> > schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> > psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> > effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking, he

> > chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> > violence , he is responsible.

> >

> > In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her his

> > " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> > mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> > in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> > meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he chose

> > for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> > know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> > and that constituted enough of a law.

> >

> > And in that, he was very much like a BP.

> >

> > I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

> >

> > If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> > you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> > an excuse, nor you with a justification.

> >

> > You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

> >

> > As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very true.

> > They understand that something is not right. They can, because some do,

> > choose to respond to therapy and improve.

> >

> > Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> > doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> > hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> > hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

> >

> > IMHO.

> >

> > Doug

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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Posted
Posted

mental retardation may be resistant to treatment or not treatable with drugs

however the federal government and every public school system in America spends

millions of dollars on the mentally retarded to help them learn as much as they

can at their level. If I can teach a mentally retarded child with autistic

tendencies to read when every one else has given up on him then why can't a BP

improve? And since there are actual cases of BP's seeking help and improving

then the excues " My brain is different, I can't help it " is just that. I have

children in the public school system with cerebral palsy who are ten times more

involved motorically than Fada with his arthritis but these children work

desperately to improve. In contrast Fada would prefer to sit in his room and

feel sorry for himself and isn't happy unless he is miserable. He is the perfect

example of " it is better to curse the darkness than light a candle " Did I twist

that one around? Well we are in Oz. Whoa there goes a flying monkey!

Kay

> >

> >

> > Well, I'm not disagreeing with you...I just have to ask because I genuinely

am trying to figure this out.

> > Maybe I am making excuses for my mother because I don't want to believe SHE

WANTED to hurt me. Maybe I'm in denial.

> >

> > But why is it that a person with OCD or some other mental illness on the

scale of BPD (say, depression because I don't want to compare BPD to

psychosis)...why is it that those people CAN'T control their actions, but BPD

people can?

> > That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

> >

> > I know we're all angry and frustrated and irritated and have been repeatedly

hurt by our BPD parents. I think I've shared enough that you all are able to

see my mother is as textbook BPD as many of yours are. But I'm not so sure she

could control it. I feel like my father or some other family member should have

stepped in and forced her to get help.

> >

> > I'm just trying to understand why clinicians or whoever it is pick BPD out

of the hat to say they can control it, but none of the other people with other

forms of mental illness can.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Re: is BPD really mental illness?

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last night

> > on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their use

> > of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

> >

> > But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> > dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats, and

> > calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> > mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

> >

> > One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

> >

> > BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break, are

> > aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting others.

> > They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> > of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> > outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> > get their itch scrated so be it.

> >

> > Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> > unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> > conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> > does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> > pout. Not my best side.

> >

> > The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> > experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

> >

> > One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> > water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in fact

> > not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

> >

> > On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that his

> > actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

> >

> > An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and aware

> > when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> > his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> > alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to drive

> > once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

> >

> > Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery and

> > sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> > acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts that

> > the choices and outcomes were still his.

> >

> > A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition of

> > whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal verdict:

> > guilty, but insane.

> >

> > Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the murderer

> > with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is dead,

> > and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> > fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> > time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> > his thorazine in prison.

> >

> > Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> > schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> > psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> > effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking, he

> > chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> > violence , he is responsible.

> >

> > In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her his

> > " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> > mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> > in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> > meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he chose

> > for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> > know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> > and that constituted enough of a law.

> >

> > And in that, he was very much like a BP.

> >

> > I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

> >

> > If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> > you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> > an excuse, nor you with a justification.

> >

> > You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

> >

> > As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very true.

> > They understand that something is not right. They can, because some do,

> > choose to respond to therapy and improve.

> >

> > Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> > doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> > hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> > hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

> >

> > IMHO.

> >

> > Doug

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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Posted
Posted

Part of what complicates this question is that there are big individual

variations amongst BPD's. We often write here about " nada " often as if we all

have the same mother the similarities sometimes are so startling. But there are

differences in level of functioning, severity of the abuse, and context.

This is just my opinion based on my own experience of thirty years of chronic

depression and observing the personality disorders within my own family. There

is a range in which a person's free will can act, but the range can be

determined and limited by factors outside of their control. The person's

genetics, unique brain chemistry/structure, their formative experiences all go

into determining what that free will range is.

So let's say there's a nada who puts on a nice face in public and let's fly with

the FOG in private - this part seems pretty universal for most of us. Perhaps

it is in the very nature of BPD that they will do exactly that with a vulnerable

person who they have control over? And you could say well she could exercise

free will and not FOG her kid but perhaps that is the only way she *can* relate

to a dependent other because of the threat that person represents to her. A

need to control/own those who are close and appease those who are not....a need

which may have been put in place by factors the BPD never did control.

Just my musings,

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Posted
Posted

I think it has to do with (a) being willing to accept that there is something

wrong with your brain, and (B) being motivated to undergo therapy to learn how

to change.

I'm willing to bet that the intellectually-impaired kids you teach realize that

they're slower learners, but they are motivated to learn *anyway*. They

understand that they are different, but that's OK and they try to learn as much

as they can *anyway*.

My nada is not willing to admit that there is anything wrong with her. She is

perfect. Its always other people who are at fault, who are mean to her or

disappointing to her, who let her down, who are taking things from her or trying

to hurt her, are rejecting and abandoning her, etc.

Her problems are always coming from *outside* herself. Its everyone else's

fault that she has this or that problem.

She has no motivation to learn or change; why should she? There's nothing wrong

with her.

That is the difference. She is not distressed by her disorder, she denies that

she has a disorder and denies ever having done anything wrong or hurt anyone.

She is always and only a victim. She has walled herself off from the

possibility of change.

-Annie

> > >

> > >

> > > Well, I'm not disagreeing with you...I just have to ask because I

genuinely am trying to figure this out.

> > > Maybe I am making excuses for my mother because I don't want to believe

SHE WANTED to hurt me. Maybe I'm in denial.

> > >

> > > But why is it that a person with OCD or some other mental illness on the

scale of BPD (say, depression because I don't want to compare BPD to

psychosis)...why is it that those people CAN'T control their actions, but BPD

people can?

> > > That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

> > >

> > > I know we're all angry and frustrated and irritated and have been

repeatedly hurt by our BPD parents. I think I've shared enough that you all are

able to see my mother is as textbook BPD as many of yours are. But I'm not so

sure she could control it. I feel like my father or some other family member

should have stepped in and forced her to get help.

> > >

> > > I'm just trying to understand why clinicians or whoever it is pick BPD out

of the hat to say they can control it, but none of the other people with other

forms of mental illness can.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Re: is BPD really mental illness?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last night

> > > on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their use

> > > of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

> > >

> > > But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> > > dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats, and

> > > calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> > > mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

> > >

> > > One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

> > >

> > > BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break, are

> > > aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting others.

> > > They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> > > of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> > > outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> > > get their itch scrated so be it.

> > >

> > > Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> > > unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> > > conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> > > does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> > > pout. Not my best side.

> > >

> > > The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> > > experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

> > >

> > > One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> > > water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in fact

> > > not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

> > >

> > > On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that his

> > > actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

> > >

> > > An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and aware

> > > when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> > > his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> > > alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to drive

> > > once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

> > >

> > > Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery and

> > > sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> > > acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts that

> > > the choices and outcomes were still his.

> > >

> > > A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition of

> > > whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal verdict:

> > > guilty, but insane.

> > >

> > > Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the murderer

> > > with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is dead,

> > > and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> > > fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> > > time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> > > his thorazine in prison.

> > >

> > > Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> > > schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> > > psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> > > effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking, he

> > > chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> > > violence , he is responsible.

> > >

> > > In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her his

> > > " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> > > mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> > > in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> > > meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he chose

> > > for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> > > know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> > > and that constituted enough of a law.

> > >

> > > And in that, he was very much like a BP.

> > >

> > > I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

> > >

> > > If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> > > you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> > > an excuse, nor you with a justification.

> > >

> > > You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

> > >

> > > As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very true.

> > > They understand that something is not right. They can, because some do,

> > > choose to respond to therapy and improve.

> > >

> > > Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> > > doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> > > hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> > > hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

> > >

> > > IMHO.

> > >

> > > Doug

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

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Posted
Posted

I think it has to do with (a) being willing to accept that there is something

wrong with your brain, and (B) being motivated to undergo therapy to learn how

to change.

I'm willing to bet that the intellectually-impaired kids you teach realize that

they're slower learners, but they are motivated to learn *anyway*. They

understand that they are different, but that's OK and they try to learn as much

as they can *anyway*.

My nada is not willing to admit that there is anything wrong with her. She is

perfect. Its always other people who are at fault, who are mean to her or

disappointing to her, who let her down, who are taking things from her or trying

to hurt her, are rejecting and abandoning her, etc.

Her problems are always coming from *outside* herself. Its everyone else's

fault that she has this or that problem.

She has no motivation to learn or change; why should she? There's nothing wrong

with her.

That is the difference. She is not distressed by her disorder, she denies that

she has a disorder and denies ever having done anything wrong or hurt anyone.

She is always and only a victim. She has walled herself off from the

possibility of change.

-Annie

> > >

> > >

> > > Well, I'm not disagreeing with you...I just have to ask because I

genuinely am trying to figure this out.

> > > Maybe I am making excuses for my mother because I don't want to believe

SHE WANTED to hurt me. Maybe I'm in denial.

> > >

> > > But why is it that a person with OCD or some other mental illness on the

scale of BPD (say, depression because I don't want to compare BPD to

psychosis)...why is it that those people CAN'T control their actions, but BPD

people can?

> > > That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

> > >

> > > I know we're all angry and frustrated and irritated and have been

repeatedly hurt by our BPD parents. I think I've shared enough that you all are

able to see my mother is as textbook BPD as many of yours are. But I'm not so

sure she could control it. I feel like my father or some other family member

should have stepped in and forced her to get help.

> > >

> > > I'm just trying to understand why clinicians or whoever it is pick BPD out

of the hat to say they can control it, but none of the other people with other

forms of mental illness can.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Re: is BPD really mental illness?

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last night

> > > on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their use

> > > of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

> > >

> > > But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> > > dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats, and

> > > calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> > > mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

> > >

> > > One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

> > >

> > > BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break, are

> > > aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting others.

> > > They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> > > of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> > > outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> > > get their itch scrated so be it.

> > >

> > > Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> > > unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> > > conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> > > does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> > > pout. Not my best side.

> > >

> > > The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> > > experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

> > >

> > > One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> > > water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in fact

> > > not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

> > >

> > > On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that his

> > > actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

> > >

> > > An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and aware

> > > when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> > > his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> > > alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to drive

> > > once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

> > >

> > > Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery and

> > > sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> > > acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts that

> > > the choices and outcomes were still his.

> > >

> > > A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition of

> > > whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal verdict:

> > > guilty, but insane.

> > >

> > > Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the murderer

> > > with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is dead,

> > > and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> > > fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> > > time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> > > his thorazine in prison.

> > >

> > > Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> > > schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> > > psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> > > effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking, he

> > > chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> > > violence , he is responsible.

> > >

> > > In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her his

> > > " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> > > mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> > > in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> > > meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he chose

> > > for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> > > know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> > > and that constituted enough of a law.

> > >

> > > And in that, he was very much like a BP.

> > >

> > > I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

> > >

> > > If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> > > you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> > > an excuse, nor you with a justification.

> > >

> > > You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

> > >

> > > As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very true.

> > > They understand that something is not right. They can, because some do,

> > > choose to respond to therapy and improve.

> > >

> > > Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> > > doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> > > hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> > > hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

> > >

> > > IMHO.

> > >

> > > Doug

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

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Posted
Posted

Interesting theory; you're saying (if I understand correctly) that the behavior

of only unleashing rage at the kids and the spouse is not under the bpd's

conscious control.

According to some article or other I read, bpd is a disorder of intimacy, which

means that the children of a bpd are peculiarly and most specifically vulnerable

or targeted for abuse by a bpd parent. The spouse or SO of a bpd would also be

especially vulnerable to abuse, and to a lesser degree a non-pd parent of a

child with bpd.

I guess in this case it boils down to a philosophical point or a personal

interpretation.

I think my nada controlled her behaviors in public because she wanted to badly

enough; she wanted above all to be seen as perfect.

She let loose at Sister, dad and me in private because she could, and yet still

look perfect to the outside world.

She felt entitled to unleash her rage and frustration at us in private because

we " made her " so angry and deserved it, because we " owed her " as her children to

subject ourselves to her will, we were her possessions, and she felt safe

unleashing at us because we as children did not have the option of leaving her

and we wouldn't tell. We were too afraid of her to tell. According to my nada

we " had to love her anyway. " Dad had that option to leave, but for reasons of

his own chose " til death do us part " and stayed and took the abuse.

I do agree wholeheartedly that there is not just one " nada " behavior. The

breakdown of bpd behaviors into Waif (dependency), Hermit (anxiety) , Queen

(narcissistic), and Witch (antisocial) is a really good way of indicating this

variation. There is also the variation of " high-functioning " vs

" low-functioning " . And those 4 sub-categories don't take into account other

mental illnesses that might be present at the same time. I think in addition to

being a " walking Cluster B " my nada also has obsessive-compulsive personality

disorder (rigid adhering to rules and lists, perfectionism, hoarding behaviors)

and some depression as well.

So, yes, I think you make some interesting and valid points.

-Annie

>

> Part of what complicates this question is that there are big individual

variations amongst BPD's. We often write here about " nada " often as if we all

have the same mother the similarities sometimes are so startling. But there are

differences in level of functioning, severity of the abuse, and context.

>

> This is just my opinion based on my own experience of thirty years of chronic

depression and observing the personality disorders within my own family. There

is a range in which a person's free will can act, but the range can be

determined and limited by factors outside of their control. The person's

genetics, unique brain chemistry/structure, their formative experiences all go

into determining what that free will range is.

>

> So let's say there's a nada who puts on a nice face in public and let's fly

with the FOG in private - this part seems pretty universal for most of us.

Perhaps it is in the very nature of BPD that they will do exactly that with a

vulnerable person who they have control over? And you could say well she could

exercise free will and not FOG her kid but perhaps that is the only way she

*can* relate to a dependent other because of the threat that person represents

to her. A need to control/own those who are close and appease those who are

not....a need which may have been put in place by factors the BPD never did

control.

>

> Just my musings,

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Interesting theory; you're saying (if I understand correctly) that the behavior

of only unleashing rage at the kids and the spouse is not under the bpd's

conscious control.

According to some article or other I read, bpd is a disorder of intimacy, which

means that the children of a bpd are peculiarly and most specifically vulnerable

or targeted for abuse by a bpd parent. The spouse or SO of a bpd would also be

especially vulnerable to abuse, and to a lesser degree a non-pd parent of a

child with bpd.

I guess in this case it boils down to a philosophical point or a personal

interpretation.

I think my nada controlled her behaviors in public because she wanted to badly

enough; she wanted above all to be seen as perfect.

She let loose at Sister, dad and me in private because she could, and yet still

look perfect to the outside world.

She felt entitled to unleash her rage and frustration at us in private because

we " made her " so angry and deserved it, because we " owed her " as her children to

subject ourselves to her will, we were her possessions, and she felt safe

unleashing at us because we as children did not have the option of leaving her

and we wouldn't tell. We were too afraid of her to tell. According to my nada

we " had to love her anyway. " Dad had that option to leave, but for reasons of

his own chose " til death do us part " and stayed and took the abuse.

I do agree wholeheartedly that there is not just one " nada " behavior. The

breakdown of bpd behaviors into Waif (dependency), Hermit (anxiety) , Queen

(narcissistic), and Witch (antisocial) is a really good way of indicating this

variation. There is also the variation of " high-functioning " vs

" low-functioning " . And those 4 sub-categories don't take into account other

mental illnesses that might be present at the same time. I think in addition to

being a " walking Cluster B " my nada also has obsessive-compulsive personality

disorder (rigid adhering to rules and lists, perfectionism, hoarding behaviors)

and some depression as well.

So, yes, I think you make some interesting and valid points.

-Annie

>

> Part of what complicates this question is that there are big individual

variations amongst BPD's. We often write here about " nada " often as if we all

have the same mother the similarities sometimes are so startling. But there are

differences in level of functioning, severity of the abuse, and context.

>

> This is just my opinion based on my own experience of thirty years of chronic

depression and observing the personality disorders within my own family. There

is a range in which a person's free will can act, but the range can be

determined and limited by factors outside of their control. The person's

genetics, unique brain chemistry/structure, their formative experiences all go

into determining what that free will range is.

>

> So let's say there's a nada who puts on a nice face in public and let's fly

with the FOG in private - this part seems pretty universal for most of us.

Perhaps it is in the very nature of BPD that they will do exactly that with a

vulnerable person who they have control over? And you could say well she could

exercise free will and not FOG her kid but perhaps that is the only way she

*can* relate to a dependent other because of the threat that person represents

to her. A need to control/own those who are close and appease those who are

not....a need which may have been put in place by factors the BPD never did

control.

>

> Just my musings,

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Interesting theory; you're saying (if I understand correctly) that the behavior

of only unleashing rage at the kids and the spouse is not under the bpd's

conscious control.

According to some article or other I read, bpd is a disorder of intimacy, which

means that the children of a bpd are peculiarly and most specifically vulnerable

or targeted for abuse by a bpd parent. The spouse or SO of a bpd would also be

especially vulnerable to abuse, and to a lesser degree a non-pd parent of a

child with bpd.

I guess in this case it boils down to a philosophical point or a personal

interpretation.

I think my nada controlled her behaviors in public because she wanted to badly

enough; she wanted above all to be seen as perfect.

She let loose at Sister, dad and me in private because she could, and yet still

look perfect to the outside world.

She felt entitled to unleash her rage and frustration at us in private because

we " made her " so angry and deserved it, because we " owed her " as her children to

subject ourselves to her will, we were her possessions, and she felt safe

unleashing at us because we as children did not have the option of leaving her

and we wouldn't tell. We were too afraid of her to tell. According to my nada

we " had to love her anyway. " Dad had that option to leave, but for reasons of

his own chose " til death do us part " and stayed and took the abuse.

I do agree wholeheartedly that there is not just one " nada " behavior. The

breakdown of bpd behaviors into Waif (dependency), Hermit (anxiety) , Queen

(narcissistic), and Witch (antisocial) is a really good way of indicating this

variation. There is also the variation of " high-functioning " vs

" low-functioning " . And those 4 sub-categories don't take into account other

mental illnesses that might be present at the same time. I think in addition to

being a " walking Cluster B " my nada also has obsessive-compulsive personality

disorder (rigid adhering to rules and lists, perfectionism, hoarding behaviors)

and some depression as well.

So, yes, I think you make some interesting and valid points.

-Annie

>

> Part of what complicates this question is that there are big individual

variations amongst BPD's. We often write here about " nada " often as if we all

have the same mother the similarities sometimes are so startling. But there are

differences in level of functioning, severity of the abuse, and context.

>

> This is just my opinion based on my own experience of thirty years of chronic

depression and observing the personality disorders within my own family. There

is a range in which a person's free will can act, but the range can be

determined and limited by factors outside of their control. The person's

genetics, unique brain chemistry/structure, their formative experiences all go

into determining what that free will range is.

>

> So let's say there's a nada who puts on a nice face in public and let's fly

with the FOG in private - this part seems pretty universal for most of us.

Perhaps it is in the very nature of BPD that they will do exactly that with a

vulnerable person who they have control over? And you could say well she could

exercise free will and not FOG her kid but perhaps that is the only way she

*can* relate to a dependent other because of the threat that person represents

to her. A need to control/own those who are close and appease those who are

not....a need which may have been put in place by factors the BPD never did

control.

>

> Just my musings,

>

>

>

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Posted
Posted

Perfectly put, kay!

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> I think it has to do with (a) being willing to accept that there is

> something wrong with your brain, and (B) being motivated to undergo therapy

> to learn how to change.

>

> I'm willing to bet that the intellectually-impaired kids you teach realize

> that they're slower learners, but they are motivated to learn *anyway*. They

> understand that they are different, but that's OK and they try to learn as

> much as they can *anyway*.

>

> My nada is not willing to admit that there is anything wrong with her. She

> is perfect. Its always other people who are at fault, who are mean to her or

> disappointing to her, who let her down, who are taking things from her or

> trying to hurt her, are rejecting and abandoning her, etc.

>

> Her problems are always coming from *outside* herself. Its everyone else's

> fault that she has this or that problem.

>

> She has no motivation to learn or change; why should she? There's nothing

> wrong with her.

>

> That is the difference. She is not distressed by her disorder, she denies

> that she has a disorder and denies ever having done anything wrong or hurt

> anyone. She is always and only a victim. She has walled herself off from the

> possibility of change.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Well, I'm not disagreeing with you...I just have to ask because I

> genuinely am trying to figure this out.

> > > > Maybe I am making excuses for my mother because I don't want to

> believe SHE WANTED to hurt me. Maybe I'm in denial.

> > > >

> > > > But why is it that a person with OCD or some other mental illness on

> the scale of BPD (say, depression because I don't want to compare BPD to

> psychosis)...why is it that those people CAN'T control their actions, but

> BPD people can?

> > > > That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

> > > >

> > > > I know we're all angry and frustrated and irritated and have been

> repeatedly hurt by our BPD parents. I think I've shared enough that you all

> are able to see my mother is as textbook BPD as many of yours are. But I'm

> not so sure she could control it. I feel like my father or some other family

> member should have stepped in and forced her to get help.

> > > >

> > > > I'm just trying to understand why clinicians or whoever it is pick

> BPD out of the hat to say they can control it, but none of the other people

> with other forms of mental illness can.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Re: is BPD really mental illness?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last

> night

> > > > on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their

> use

> > > > of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

> > > >

> > > > But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> > > > dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats,

> and

> > > > calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> > > > mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

> > > >

> > > > One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

> > > >

> > > > BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break,

> are

> > > > aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting

> others.

> > > > They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> > > > of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> > > > outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> > > > get their itch scrated so be it.

> > > >

> > > > Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> > > > unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> > > > conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> > > > does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> > > > pout. Not my best side.

> > > >

> > > > The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> > > > experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

> > > >

> > > > One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> > > > water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in

> fact

> > > > not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

> > > >

> > > > On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that

> his

> > > > actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

> > > >

> > > > An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and

> aware

> > > > when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> > > > his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> > > > alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to

> drive

> > > > once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

> > > >

> > > > Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery

> and

> > > > sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> > > > acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts

> that

> > > > the choices and outcomes were still his.

> > > >

> > > > A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition

> of

> > > > whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal

> verdict:

> > > > guilty, but insane.

> > > >

> > > > Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the

> murderer

> > > > with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is

> dead,

> > > > and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> > > > fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> > > > time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> > > > his thorazine in prison.

> > > >

> > > > Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> > > > schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> > > > psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> > > > effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking,

> he

> > > > chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> > > > violence , he is responsible.

> > > >

> > > > In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her

> his

> > > > " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> > > > mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> > > > in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> > > > meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he

> chose

> > > > for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> > > > know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> > > > and that constituted enough of a law.

> > > >

> > > > And in that, he was very much like a BP.

> > > >

> > > > I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

> > > >

> > > > If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> > > > you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> > > > an excuse, nor you with a justification.

> > > >

> > > > You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

> > > >

> > > > As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very

> true.

> > > > They understand that something is not right. They can, because some

> do,

> > > > choose to respond to therapy and improve.

> > > >

> > > > Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> > > > doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> > > > hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> > > > hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

> > > >

> > > > IMHO.

> > > >

> > > > Doug

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

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Posted
Posted

Perfectly put, kay!

On Sun, Jan 2, 2011 at 4:37 PM, anuria67854 wrote:

>

>

> I think it has to do with (a) being willing to accept that there is

> something wrong with your brain, and (B) being motivated to undergo therapy

> to learn how to change.

>

> I'm willing to bet that the intellectually-impaired kids you teach realize

> that they're slower learners, but they are motivated to learn *anyway*. They

> understand that they are different, but that's OK and they try to learn as

> much as they can *anyway*.

>

> My nada is not willing to admit that there is anything wrong with her. She

> is perfect. Its always other people who are at fault, who are mean to her or

> disappointing to her, who let her down, who are taking things from her or

> trying to hurt her, are rejecting and abandoning her, etc.

>

> Her problems are always coming from *outside* herself. Its everyone else's

> fault that she has this or that problem.

>

> She has no motivation to learn or change; why should she? There's nothing

> wrong with her.

>

> That is the difference. She is not distressed by her disorder, she denies

> that she has a disorder and denies ever having done anything wrong or hurt

> anyone. She is always and only a victim. She has walled herself off from the

> possibility of change.

>

> -Annie

>

>

>

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Well, I'm not disagreeing with you...I just have to ask because I

> genuinely am trying to figure this out.

> > > > Maybe I am making excuses for my mother because I don't want to

> believe SHE WANTED to hurt me. Maybe I'm in denial.

> > > >

> > > > But why is it that a person with OCD or some other mental illness on

> the scale of BPD (say, depression because I don't want to compare BPD to

> psychosis)...why is it that those people CAN'T control their actions, but

> BPD people can?

> > > > That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

> > > >

> > > > I know we're all angry and frustrated and irritated and have been

> repeatedly hurt by our BPD parents. I think I've shared enough that you all

> are able to see my mother is as textbook BPD as many of yours are. But I'm

> not so sure she could control it. I feel like my father or some other family

> member should have stepped in and forced her to get help.

> > > >

> > > > I'm just trying to understand why clinicians or whoever it is pick

> BPD out of the hat to say they can control it, but none of the other people

> with other forms of mental illness can.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Re: is BPD really mental illness?

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last

> night

> > > > on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their

> use

> > > > of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

> > > >

> > > > But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> > > > dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats,

> and

> > > > calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> > > > mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

> > > >

> > > > One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

> > > >

> > > > BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break,

> are

> > > > aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting

> others.

> > > > They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> > > > of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> > > > outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> > > > get their itch scrated so be it.

> > > >

> > > > Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> > > > unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> > > > conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> > > > does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> > > > pout. Not my best side.

> > > >

> > > > The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> > > > experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

> > > >

> > > > One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> > > > water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in

> fact

> > > > not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

> > > >

> > > > On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that

> his

> > > > actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

> > > >

> > > > An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and

> aware

> > > > when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> > > > his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> > > > alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to

> drive

> > > > once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

> > > >

> > > > Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery

> and

> > > > sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> > > > acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts

> that

> > > > the choices and outcomes were still his.

> > > >

> > > > A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition

> of

> > > > whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal

> verdict:

> > > > guilty, but insane.

> > > >

> > > > Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the

> murderer

> > > > with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is

> dead,

> > > > and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> > > > fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> > > > time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> > > > his thorazine in prison.

> > > >

> > > > Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> > > > schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> > > > psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> > > > effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking,

> he

> > > > chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> > > > violence , he is responsible.

> > > >

> > > > In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her

> his

> > > > " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> > > > mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> > > > in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> > > > meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he

> chose

> > > > for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> > > > know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> > > > and that constituted enough of a law.

> > > >

> > > > And in that, he was very much like a BP.

> > > >

> > > > I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

> > > >

> > > > If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> > > > you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> > > > an excuse, nor you with a justification.

> > > >

> > > > You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

> > > >

> > > > As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very

> true.

> > > > They understand that something is not right. They can, because some

> do,

> > > > choose to respond to therapy and improve.

> > > >

> > > > Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> > > > doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> > > > hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> > > > hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

> > > >

> > > > IMHO.

> > > >

> > > > Doug

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

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Posted
Posted

Annie, my fada is always a victim, too. So much so that I have coined the term:

" professional victim " however he also has a standard reply for every request for

him to try to cooperate more with the family. " I can't help it, don't you know

I'm different " If he knows he's different and uses that for an excuse, or as a

reason for his victim mentality then that should be the first step in the desire

to to change. My cerebral palsy kids know they're different and they want to be

as much like everyone else as possible. Granted, some of my students with

various etiologies are so low level I'm not sure they know what different means

but they respond to the lessons I prepare for them. I just have a hard time

believing that at some level these BP's know that it is their fault. I know that

some of the books say that BP's aren't manipulative but I've watched my father

manipulate his brothers and sisters into taking care of him his whole life and

now he is trying to do it to me and my family and I have a hard time believing

that he doesn't know what he's doing. He used to scream and yell at his brothers

and sisters and demand that they help him and then when they weren't looking

he'd get this sly little grin on his face. My physician calls him an " emotional

terrorist " and I'm to the point where no new caretakers are coming into the home

unless they agree to read portions of SWOE. My son who is bi-polar has made the

comment that " every new caretaker who enters the home broadens the front on the

war against emotional terrorism " because the first thing my father does is

engage them in a pity campaign so they will come and tell me how miserable he is

and imply that my family ignores him. I think we all need to learn so much more

about the brain and mental illness and mental retardation because there is a

link somewhere and if we keep urging the researchers on we may come to a day

when there are more psychotherapeutic drugs for every one. I just know that even

when my son was cycling in and out of his manic and depressive phases and he

could not control any of his emotions he said there was a part of his brain that

was aware and that he kept giving himself pep talks so he could get better. I

just think there is so much we don't know about the brain and I've watched my

Dad since I was little and I just don't believe that he doesn't enjoy a part of

this. As my husband says " he's not happy until he has something to be miserable

about "

Thanks for letting me air my opinion.

Kay

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, I'm not disagreeing with you...I just have to ask because I

> > genuinely am trying to figure this out.

> > > > > Maybe I am making excuses for my mother because I don't want to

> > believe SHE WANTED to hurt me. Maybe I'm in denial.

> > > > >

> > > > > But why is it that a person with OCD or some other mental illness on

> > the scale of BPD (say, depression because I don't want to compare BPD to

> > psychosis)...why is it that those people CAN'T control their actions, but

> > BPD people can?

> > > > > That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

> > > > >

> > > > > I know we're all angry and frustrated and irritated and have been

> > repeatedly hurt by our BPD parents. I think I've shared enough that you all

> > are able to see my mother is as textbook BPD as many of yours are. But I'm

> > not so sure she could control it. I feel like my father or some other family

> > member should have stepped in and forced her to get help.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm just trying to understand why clinicians or whoever it is pick

> > BPD out of the hat to say they can control it, but none of the other people

> > with other forms of mental illness can.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Re: is BPD really mental illness?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last

> > night

> > > > > on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their

> > use

> > > > > of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

> > > > >

> > > > > But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> > > > > dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats,

> > and

> > > > > calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> > > > > mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

> > > > >

> > > > > One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

> > > > >

> > > > > BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break,

> > are

> > > > > aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting

> > others.

> > > > > They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> > > > > of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> > > > > outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> > > > > get their itch scrated so be it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> > > > > unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> > > > > conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> > > > > does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> > > > > pout. Not my best side.

> > > > >

> > > > > The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> > > > > experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

> > > > >

> > > > > One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> > > > > water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in

> > fact

> > > > > not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

> > > > >

> > > > > On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that

> > his

> > > > > actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

> > > > >

> > > > > An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and

> > aware

> > > > > when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> > > > > his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> > > > > alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to

> > drive

> > > > > once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

> > > > >

> > > > > Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery

> > and

> > > > > sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> > > > > acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts

> > that

> > > > > the choices and outcomes were still his.

> > > > >

> > > > > A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition

> > of

> > > > > whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal

> > verdict:

> > > > > guilty, but insane.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the

> > murderer

> > > > > with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is

> > dead,

> > > > > and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> > > > > fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> > > > > time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> > > > > his thorazine in prison.

> > > > >

> > > > > Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> > > > > schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> > > > > psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> > > > > effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking,

> > he

> > > > > chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> > > > > violence , he is responsible.

> > > > >

> > > > > In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her

> > his

> > > > > " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> > > > > mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> > > > > in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> > > > > meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he

> > chose

> > > > > for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> > > > > know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> > > > > and that constituted enough of a law.

> > > > >

> > > > > And in that, he was very much like a BP.

> > > > >

> > > > > I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

> > > > >

> > > > > If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> > > > > you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> > > > > an excuse, nor you with a justification.

> > > > >

> > > > > You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

> > > > >

> > > > > As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very

> > true.

> > > > > They understand that something is not right. They can, because some

> > do,

> > > > > choose to respond to therapy and improve.

> > > > >

> > > > > Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> > > > > doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> > > > > hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> > > > > hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

> > > > >

> > > > > IMHO.

> > > > >

> > > > > Doug

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

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Posted
Posted

Annie, my fada is always a victim, too. So much so that I have coined the term:

" professional victim " however he also has a standard reply for every request for

him to try to cooperate more with the family. " I can't help it, don't you know

I'm different " If he knows he's different and uses that for an excuse, or as a

reason for his victim mentality then that should be the first step in the desire

to to change. My cerebral palsy kids know they're different and they want to be

as much like everyone else as possible. Granted, some of my students with

various etiologies are so low level I'm not sure they know what different means

but they respond to the lessons I prepare for them. I just have a hard time

believing that at some level these BP's know that it is their fault. I know that

some of the books say that BP's aren't manipulative but I've watched my father

manipulate his brothers and sisters into taking care of him his whole life and

now he is trying to do it to me and my family and I have a hard time believing

that he doesn't know what he's doing. He used to scream and yell at his brothers

and sisters and demand that they help him and then when they weren't looking

he'd get this sly little grin on his face. My physician calls him an " emotional

terrorist " and I'm to the point where no new caretakers are coming into the home

unless they agree to read portions of SWOE. My son who is bi-polar has made the

comment that " every new caretaker who enters the home broadens the front on the

war against emotional terrorism " because the first thing my father does is

engage them in a pity campaign so they will come and tell me how miserable he is

and imply that my family ignores him. I think we all need to learn so much more

about the brain and mental illness and mental retardation because there is a

link somewhere and if we keep urging the researchers on we may come to a day

when there are more psychotherapeutic drugs for every one. I just know that even

when my son was cycling in and out of his manic and depressive phases and he

could not control any of his emotions he said there was a part of his brain that

was aware and that he kept giving himself pep talks so he could get better. I

just think there is so much we don't know about the brain and I've watched my

Dad since I was little and I just don't believe that he doesn't enjoy a part of

this. As my husband says " he's not happy until he has something to be miserable

about "

Thanks for letting me air my opinion.

Kay

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, I'm not disagreeing with you...I just have to ask because I

> > genuinely am trying to figure this out.

> > > > > Maybe I am making excuses for my mother because I don't want to

> > believe SHE WANTED to hurt me. Maybe I'm in denial.

> > > > >

> > > > > But why is it that a person with OCD or some other mental illness on

> > the scale of BPD (say, depression because I don't want to compare BPD to

> > psychosis)...why is it that those people CAN'T control their actions, but

> > BPD people can?

> > > > > That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

> > > > >

> > > > > I know we're all angry and frustrated and irritated and have been

> > repeatedly hurt by our BPD parents. I think I've shared enough that you all

> > are able to see my mother is as textbook BPD as many of yours are. But I'm

> > not so sure she could control it. I feel like my father or some other family

> > member should have stepped in and forced her to get help.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm just trying to understand why clinicians or whoever it is pick

> > BPD out of the hat to say they can control it, but none of the other people

> > with other forms of mental illness can.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Re: is BPD really mental illness?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last

> > night

> > > > > on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their

> > use

> > > > > of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

> > > > >

> > > > > But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> > > > > dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats,

> > and

> > > > > calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> > > > > mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

> > > > >

> > > > > One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

> > > > >

> > > > > BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break,

> > are

> > > > > aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting

> > others.

> > > > > They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> > > > > of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> > > > > outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> > > > > get their itch scrated so be it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> > > > > unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> > > > > conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> > > > > does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> > > > > pout. Not my best side.

> > > > >

> > > > > The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> > > > > experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

> > > > >

> > > > > One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> > > > > water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in

> > fact

> > > > > not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

> > > > >

> > > > > On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that

> > his

> > > > > actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

> > > > >

> > > > > An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and

> > aware

> > > > > when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> > > > > his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> > > > > alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to

> > drive

> > > > > once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

> > > > >

> > > > > Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery

> > and

> > > > > sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> > > > > acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts

> > that

> > > > > the choices and outcomes were still his.

> > > > >

> > > > > A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition

> > of

> > > > > whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal

> > verdict:

> > > > > guilty, but insane.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the

> > murderer

> > > > > with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is

> > dead,

> > > > > and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> > > > > fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> > > > > time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> > > > > his thorazine in prison.

> > > > >

> > > > > Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> > > > > schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> > > > > psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> > > > > effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking,

> > he

> > > > > chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> > > > > violence , he is responsible.

> > > > >

> > > > > In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her

> > his

> > > > > " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> > > > > mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> > > > > in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> > > > > meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he

> > chose

> > > > > for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> > > > > know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> > > > > and that constituted enough of a law.

> > > > >

> > > > > And in that, he was very much like a BP.

> > > > >

> > > > > I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

> > > > >

> > > > > If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> > > > > you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> > > > > an excuse, nor you with a justification.

> > > > >

> > > > > You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

> > > > >

> > > > > As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very

> > true.

> > > > > They understand that something is not right. They can, because some

> > do,

> > > > > choose to respond to therapy and improve.

> > > > >

> > > > > Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> > > > > doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> > > > > hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> > > > > hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

> > > > >

> > > > > IMHO.

> > > > >

> > > > > Doug

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

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Posted
Posted

Annie, my fada is always a victim, too. So much so that I have coined the term:

" professional victim " however he also has a standard reply for every request for

him to try to cooperate more with the family. " I can't help it, don't you know

I'm different " If he knows he's different and uses that for an excuse, or as a

reason for his victim mentality then that should be the first step in the desire

to to change. My cerebral palsy kids know they're different and they want to be

as much like everyone else as possible. Granted, some of my students with

various etiologies are so low level I'm not sure they know what different means

but they respond to the lessons I prepare for them. I just have a hard time

believing that at some level these BP's know that it is their fault. I know that

some of the books say that BP's aren't manipulative but I've watched my father

manipulate his brothers and sisters into taking care of him his whole life and

now he is trying to do it to me and my family and I have a hard time believing

that he doesn't know what he's doing. He used to scream and yell at his brothers

and sisters and demand that they help him and then when they weren't looking

he'd get this sly little grin on his face. My physician calls him an " emotional

terrorist " and I'm to the point where no new caretakers are coming into the home

unless they agree to read portions of SWOE. My son who is bi-polar has made the

comment that " every new caretaker who enters the home broadens the front on the

war against emotional terrorism " because the first thing my father does is

engage them in a pity campaign so they will come and tell me how miserable he is

and imply that my family ignores him. I think we all need to learn so much more

about the brain and mental illness and mental retardation because there is a

link somewhere and if we keep urging the researchers on we may come to a day

when there are more psychotherapeutic drugs for every one. I just know that even

when my son was cycling in and out of his manic and depressive phases and he

could not control any of his emotions he said there was a part of his brain that

was aware and that he kept giving himself pep talks so he could get better. I

just think there is so much we don't know about the brain and I've watched my

Dad since I was little and I just don't believe that he doesn't enjoy a part of

this. As my husband says " he's not happy until he has something to be miserable

about "

Thanks for letting me air my opinion.

Kay

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Well, I'm not disagreeing with you...I just have to ask because I

> > genuinely am trying to figure this out.

> > > > > Maybe I am making excuses for my mother because I don't want to

> > believe SHE WANTED to hurt me. Maybe I'm in denial.

> > > > >

> > > > > But why is it that a person with OCD or some other mental illness on

> > the scale of BPD (say, depression because I don't want to compare BPD to

> > psychosis)...why is it that those people CAN'T control their actions, but

> > BPD people can?

> > > > > That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

> > > > >

> > > > > I know we're all angry and frustrated and irritated and have been

> > repeatedly hurt by our BPD parents. I think I've shared enough that you all

> > are able to see my mother is as textbook BPD as many of yours are. But I'm

> > not so sure she could control it. I feel like my father or some other family

> > member should have stepped in and forced her to get help.

> > > > >

> > > > > I'm just trying to understand why clinicians or whoever it is pick

> > BPD out of the hat to say they can control it, but none of the other people

> > with other forms of mental illness can.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Re: is BPD really mental illness?

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > That case is pretty much national news. There was a segment last

> > night

> > > > > on Grace, which I watched just long enough to key in on their

> > use

> > > > > of the term BPD, because otherwise I cannot stand Grace.

> > > > >

> > > > > But there was a case there of a mother , angry at a divorce that left

> > > > > dad with custody of her teen daughters, who cut both thier throats,

> > and

> > > > > calmly called 911. One daughter died. And one of the talking heads

> > > > > mentioned that the Mom had BPD.

> > > > >

> > > > > One can debate this endlessly , but a couple of observations.

> > > > >

> > > > > BP s, by and large, unless they are experiencing a psychotic break,

> > are

> > > > > aware of their actions, and aware of right, wrong, and hurting

> > others.

> > > > > They simply don t give a shit. No, that is not right. In their system

> > > > > of values, no pain or abuse of another, including their children,

> > > > > outweighs their own needs. If you have to hurt in order for them to

> > > > > get their itch scrated so be it.

> > > > >

> > > > > Does a mental illness absolve one of responsibility for abhorent or

> > > > > unpleasant actions? Mental illness covers a broad sprectrum of

> > > > > conditions. Depression is a valid diagnosis from the DSM. It can, and

> > > > > does, admittedly, make me a cranky old bear. I snarl and snap and

> > > > > pout. Not my best side.

> > > > >

> > > > > The depression may be the reason for it, but it still hurts those who

> > > > > experience it. And I still owe them an apology.

> > > > >

> > > > > One who is so delusional that he hears God telling him, from out of a

> > > > > water pitcher, to do something that is divorced from reality may in

> > fact

> > > > > not realize what he is doing , or to whom.

> > > > >

> > > > > On the other hand, one who is obsessive compulsive may be aware that

> > his

> > > > > actions are out of the norm, but find it difficult to refrain.

> > > > >

> > > > > An drunk driver, who kills without remembering, was coherent and

> > aware

> > > > > when he began to drink with car keys in his pocket. If the results of

> > > > > his actions end up in a death, he is still responsible. He may be an

> > > > > alcoholic, but he can make a decision to make sure he is unable to

> > drive

> > > > > once he is drunk. He chooses not to. Sucks to be him.

> > > > >

> > > > > Any addict in recovery will tell you, an essential part of recovery

> > and

> > > > > sobriety is accepting responsibility for one s actions. He may

> > > > > acknowledge that the addiction was the driving force, but accepts

> > that

> > > > > the choices and outcomes were still his.

> > > > >

> > > > > A wiser man than me proposed that, since insane is a legal definition

> > of

> > > > > whether one discerns right or wrong, there needs to be a legal

> > verdict:

> > > > > guilty, but insane.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not guilty by reason of insanity is an inane oxymoron. Did the

> > murderer

> > > > > with delusions NOT kill his victim? No, he killed, the victim is

> > dead,

> > > > > and he did it. His actions are such that he is guilty of murder. The

> > > > > fact that his insanity prevented him from fully understanding at the

> > > > > time does not change his actions, or responsibility for it. Give him

> > > > > his thorazine in prison.

> > > > >

> > > > > Which provides incentive in the next observation: Often a psycho or

> > > > > schizo who does violence, does so while voluntarily stopping his anti

> > > > > psychotics because he does not like the, admittedly severe, side

> > > > > effects. So, like the drunk who drives to the bar to start drinking,

> > he

> > > > > chose his comfort over the safety of others. If his comfort results

> > > > > violence , he is responsible.

> > > > >

> > > > > In the case of the man who kidnapped a 12 year old girl and made her

> > his

> > > > > " wife " , claiming God told him to is, IMHO , full of shit. He is a

> > > > > mean, obsessed son of a bitch. God didnt tell his wife to assist him

> > > > > in grabbing a second one. He had a very convenient outlet for his

> > > > > meanness, and his desire to use a pretty little blond girl as he

> > chose

> > > > > for months. He was, just as they said, a sociopath. Not that he didnt

> > > > > know it was wrong, but that he didnt care. He wanted it, he took it,

> > > > > and that constituted enough of a law.

> > > > >

> > > > > And in that, he was very much like a BP.

> > > > >

> > > > > I maintain that BP s are all, to some extent, sociopathic .

> > > > >

> > > > > If your mother is a BP, then yes, she is mentally ill. That provides

> > > > > you with a reason, and an understanding. It does not provide her with

> > > > > an excuse, nor you with a justification.

> > > > >

> > > > > You do not have to say, oh moms sick so its ok.

> > > > >

> > > > > As you stated, She just did not care about society's rules. Very

> > true.

> > > > > They understand that something is not right. They can, because some

> > do,

> > > > > choose to respond to therapy and improve.

> > > > >

> > > > > Most, as one therapist put it about my mom, are " pouting because she

> > > > > doesnt want to participate. " 3 year olds can grow up. It sucks. It s

> > > > > hard. But they choose to stay with what they know, rather than do the

> > > > > hard thing and protect us from the life of a KO.

> > > > >

> > > > > IMHO.

> > > > >

> > > > > Doug

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

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Posted
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Yes, it sounds like your fada has several traits of pd, including embracing the

" professional victim " position: never taking personal responsibility for his own

actions or accepting the consequences those actions generate. Blame is always

assigned outside the pd individual, nothing is ever his fault. Its " just the

way I am so deal with it. "

Maybe its possible that on some level a person with bpd (or other personality

disorder) does have an inkling that there might be something wrong with them and

that their problems are not always, ALWAYS someone else's fault, but if they do

have an inkling they appear to push that unpleasant speculation away, bury it

deep, and instead cling tenaciously to denial.

This is what my nada shrieked on one memorable occasion about 18 months ago,

directed at Sister. Nada had been going to therapy for about 6 months and

seemed to be stabilizing, gaining personal insight and some improved control of

her acting-out behaviors... but this is what she was apparently actually

thinking: (imagine it in all caps)

" There's nothing wrong with me! I've only been going to that therapist because

you forced me to! I have always been a perfect mother to you two! Its you who

are the crazy, hateful, mean ones! Its you who are the liars! There's nothing

wrong with me..!! "

I agree with you, I think we are just on the very threshold of understanding the

brain and how it works, and what is going on when it doesn't work right. I

think why and how and all that will be figured out eventually, if we don't blow

ourselves up first.

-Annie

>

> Annie, my fada is always a victim, too. So much so that I have coined the

term: " professional victim " however he also has a standard reply for every

request for him to try to cooperate more with the family. " I can't help it,

don't you know I'm different " If he knows he's different and uses that for an

excuse, or as a reason for his victim mentality then that should be the first

step in the desire to to change. My cerebral palsy kids know they're different

and they want to be as much like everyone else as possible. Granted, some of my

students with various etiologies are so low level I'm not sure they know what

different means but they respond to the lessons I prepare for them. I just have

a hard time believing that at some level these BP's know that it is their fault.

I know that some of the books say that BP's aren't manipulative but I've watched

my father manipulate his brothers and sisters into taking care of him his whole

life and now he is trying to do it to me and my family and I have a hard time

believing that he doesn't know what he's doing. He used to scream and yell at

his brothers and sisters and demand that they help him and then when they

weren't looking he'd get this sly little grin on his face. My physician calls

him an " emotional terrorist " and I'm to the point where no new caretakers are

coming into the home unless they agree to read portions of SWOE. My son who is

bi-polar has made the comment that " every new caretaker who enters the home

broadens the front on the war against emotional terrorism " because the first

thing my father does is engage them in a pity campaign so they will come and

tell me how miserable he is and imply that my family ignores him. I think we all

need to learn so much more about the brain and mental illness and mental

retardation because there is a link somewhere and if we keep urging the

researchers on we may come to a day when there are more psychotherapeutic drugs

for every one. I just know that even when my son was cycling in and out of his

manic and depressive phases and he could not control any of his emotions he said

there was a part of his brain that was aware and that he kept giving himself pep

talks so he could get better. I just think there is so much we don't know about

the brain and I've watched my Dad since I was little and I just don't believe

that he doesn't enjoy a part of this. As my husband says " he's not happy until

he has something to be miserable about "

> Thanks for letting me air my opinion.

> Kay

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Posted
Posted

Yes, it sounds like your fada has several traits of pd, including embracing the

" professional victim " position: never taking personal responsibility for his own

actions or accepting the consequences those actions generate. Blame is always

assigned outside the pd individual, nothing is ever his fault. Its " just the

way I am so deal with it. "

Maybe its possible that on some level a person with bpd (or other personality

disorder) does have an inkling that there might be something wrong with them and

that their problems are not always, ALWAYS someone else's fault, but if they do

have an inkling they appear to push that unpleasant speculation away, bury it

deep, and instead cling tenaciously to denial.

This is what my nada shrieked on one memorable occasion about 18 months ago,

directed at Sister. Nada had been going to therapy for about 6 months and

seemed to be stabilizing, gaining personal insight and some improved control of

her acting-out behaviors... but this is what she was apparently actually

thinking: (imagine it in all caps)

" There's nothing wrong with me! I've only been going to that therapist because

you forced me to! I have always been a perfect mother to you two! Its you who

are the crazy, hateful, mean ones! Its you who are the liars! There's nothing

wrong with me..!! "

I agree with you, I think we are just on the very threshold of understanding the

brain and how it works, and what is going on when it doesn't work right. I

think why and how and all that will be figured out eventually, if we don't blow

ourselves up first.

-Annie

>

> Annie, my fada is always a victim, too. So much so that I have coined the

term: " professional victim " however he also has a standard reply for every

request for him to try to cooperate more with the family. " I can't help it,

don't you know I'm different " If he knows he's different and uses that for an

excuse, or as a reason for his victim mentality then that should be the first

step in the desire to to change. My cerebral palsy kids know they're different

and they want to be as much like everyone else as possible. Granted, some of my

students with various etiologies are so low level I'm not sure they know what

different means but they respond to the lessons I prepare for them. I just have

a hard time believing that at some level these BP's know that it is their fault.

I know that some of the books say that BP's aren't manipulative but I've watched

my father manipulate his brothers and sisters into taking care of him his whole

life and now he is trying to do it to me and my family and I have a hard time

believing that he doesn't know what he's doing. He used to scream and yell at

his brothers and sisters and demand that they help him and then when they

weren't looking he'd get this sly little grin on his face. My physician calls

him an " emotional terrorist " and I'm to the point where no new caretakers are

coming into the home unless they agree to read portions of SWOE. My son who is

bi-polar has made the comment that " every new caretaker who enters the home

broadens the front on the war against emotional terrorism " because the first

thing my father does is engage them in a pity campaign so they will come and

tell me how miserable he is and imply that my family ignores him. I think we all

need to learn so much more about the brain and mental illness and mental

retardation because there is a link somewhere and if we keep urging the

researchers on we may come to a day when there are more psychotherapeutic drugs

for every one. I just know that even when my son was cycling in and out of his

manic and depressive phases and he could not control any of his emotions he said

there was a part of his brain that was aware and that he kept giving himself pep

talks so he could get better. I just think there is so much we don't know about

the brain and I've watched my Dad since I was little and I just don't believe

that he doesn't enjoy a part of this. As my husband says " he's not happy until

he has something to be miserable about "

> Thanks for letting me air my opinion.

> Kay

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