Re: Patti-Question about my daughter, Abbie

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

In all the time I spent on this list before, I remember very, very few kids

being on as high a ratio as 4.5:1. That is just so EXTREMELY high! I would be

uncomfortable with that for a number of reasons. I don't know if Abbie is still

on any meds..... that would REALLY be a red flag to me, raising a ratio up that

high with meds on board (so I hope not).

At the very least, you are going to see a propensity to reflux, which it seems

like you already are seeing. You know, I'm not exactly sure what's going on

...... but one thing the body does with illness is to (by whatever means it can)

raise the blood glucose level so that it has something with which to fight off

the " invaders " (virus or whatever). It's interesting that you saw her seizure

free during that time..... I'm not sure if my reasoning makes any sense but I

don't know if you are checking blood glucose as part of your Keto protocol. We

always did...... it helped the dietician figure out what was going on, whether

adjustments needed to be made in calories, ratio or.... if there was just an

illness coming on. In the first few months of the diet, we checked blood glucose

every morning... and every evening.... and kept a record. Then, if we ever saw a

seizure, we'd immediately check it..... or with signs of illness, etc.

I don't know..... you say you were only seeing moderate ketones at a lower

ratio...... how much lower were you before? 4:1? 3.5:1?

Has it always been this way?? Hard to get her ketones up? Has she had meds on

board all this time? Are you absolutely sure that there are no extra carbs

sneaking their way into her diet somehow? What is her weight like? I swear I

believe that our kids' bodies will do whatever it takes to fight against ketosis

at the very high ratios...... it's like they HAVE to have glucose from

somewhere...... to give the brain the nutrients it needs. It will make it from

our their own body tissues if it has to...... seriously. The brain requires

glucose! At a 4.5:1 ratio, is she getting ANY vegetables? What are her carb

source? I think it also really matters what kinds of carbs are used..... and

what kinds of fat sources. If you have trouble keeping ketones up, have you

tried flax oil? Or coconut oil?

Please tell me more about Abbie..... I have a lot of questions. I haven't been

around here much until lately so I just don't have the background. Tell me what

she typically eats.

Patti

Re: Patti-Question about my daughter, Abbie

Patti,

You were directing a couple questions to below that made me think of

my daughter's situation. She's currently on ratio 4.5:1 with a recent decrease

in calories of 1050/day (no meds). Several weeks ago when she was ill she

became seizure free (for the first time) which was wonderful, but now we've

noticed her back to having seizures. We decreased her calories to 1050/day

thinking that was why the seizures returned. When I check her ketones they are

large; at a lower ratio they were usually moderate thus the reason for raising

the ratio. She has been throwing up every once in awhile lately and we weren't

sure why. Could that be because of lowering the calories that much?

Just looking for any advice - it was so nice to see her seizure free.

Thank you,

, Abbie's mamma (keto kid since Oct. 03)

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

In all the time I spent on this list before, I remember very, very few kids

being on as high a ratio as 4.5:1. That is just so EXTREMELY high! I would be

uncomfortable with that for a number of reasons. I don't know if Abbie is still

on any meds..... that would REALLY be a red flag to me, raising a ratio up that

high with meds on board (so I hope not).

At the very least, you are going to see a propensity to reflux, which it seems

like you already are seeing. You know, I'm not exactly sure what's going on

...... but one thing the body does with illness is to (by whatever means it can)

raise the blood glucose level so that it has something with which to fight off

the " invaders " (virus or whatever). It's interesting that you saw her seizure

free during that time..... I'm not sure if my reasoning makes any sense but I

don't know if you are checking blood glucose as part of your Keto protocol. We

always did...... it helped the dietician figure out what was going on, whether

adjustments needed to be made in calories, ratio or.... if there was just an

illness coming on. In the first few months of the diet, we checked blood glucose

every morning... and every evening.... and kept a record. Then, if we ever saw a

seizure, we'd immediately check it..... or with signs of illness, etc.

I don't know..... you say you were only seeing moderate ketones at a lower

ratio...... how much lower were you before? 4:1? 3.5:1?

Has it always been this way?? Hard to get her ketones up? Has she had meds on

board all this time? Are you absolutely sure that there are no extra carbs

sneaking their way into her diet somehow? What is her weight like? I swear I

believe that our kids' bodies will do whatever it takes to fight against ketosis

at the very high ratios...... it's like they HAVE to have glucose from

somewhere...... to give the brain the nutrients it needs. It will make it from

our their own body tissues if it has to...... seriously. The brain requires

glucose! At a 4.5:1 ratio, is she getting ANY vegetables? What are her carb

source? I think it also really matters what kinds of carbs are used..... and

what kinds of fat sources. If you have trouble keeping ketones up, have you

tried flax oil? Or coconut oil?

Please tell me more about Abbie..... I have a lot of questions. I haven't been

around here much until lately so I just don't have the background. Tell me what

she typically eats.

Patti

Re: Patti-Question about my daughter, Abbie

Patti,

You were directing a couple questions to below that made me think of

my daughter's situation. She's currently on ratio 4.5:1 with a recent decrease

in calories of 1050/day (no meds). Several weeks ago when she was ill she

became seizure free (for the first time) which was wonderful, but now we've

noticed her back to having seizures. We decreased her calories to 1050/day

thinking that was why the seizures returned. When I check her ketones they are

large; at a lower ratio they were usually moderate thus the reason for raising

the ratio. She has been throwing up every once in awhile lately and we weren't

sure why. Could that be because of lowering the calories that much?

Just looking for any advice - it was so nice to see her seizure free.

Thank you,

, Abbie's mamma (keto kid since Oct. 03)

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

In all the time I spent on this list before, I remember very, very few kids

being on as high a ratio as 4.5:1. That is just so EXTREMELY high! I would be

uncomfortable with that for a number of reasons. I don't know if Abbie is still

on any meds..... that would REALLY be a red flag to me, raising a ratio up that

high with meds on board (so I hope not).

At the very least, you are going to see a propensity to reflux, which it seems

like you already are seeing. You know, I'm not exactly sure what's going on

...... but one thing the body does with illness is to (by whatever means it can)

raise the blood glucose level so that it has something with which to fight off

the " invaders " (virus or whatever). It's interesting that you saw her seizure

free during that time..... I'm not sure if my reasoning makes any sense but I

don't know if you are checking blood glucose as part of your Keto protocol. We

always did...... it helped the dietician figure out what was going on, whether

adjustments needed to be made in calories, ratio or.... if there was just an

illness coming on. In the first few months of the diet, we checked blood glucose

every morning... and every evening.... and kept a record. Then, if we ever saw a

seizure, we'd immediately check it..... or with signs of illness, etc.

I don't know..... you say you were only seeing moderate ketones at a lower

ratio...... how much lower were you before? 4:1? 3.5:1?

Has it always been this way?? Hard to get her ketones up? Has she had meds on

board all this time? Are you absolutely sure that there are no extra carbs

sneaking their way into her diet somehow? What is her weight like? I swear I

believe that our kids' bodies will do whatever it takes to fight against ketosis

at the very high ratios...... it's like they HAVE to have glucose from

somewhere...... to give the brain the nutrients it needs. It will make it from

our their own body tissues if it has to...... seriously. The brain requires

glucose! At a 4.5:1 ratio, is she getting ANY vegetables? What are her carb

source? I think it also really matters what kinds of carbs are used..... and

what kinds of fat sources. If you have trouble keeping ketones up, have you

tried flax oil? Or coconut oil?

Please tell me more about Abbie..... I have a lot of questions. I haven't been

around here much until lately so I just don't have the background. Tell me what

she typically eats.

Patti

Re: Patti-Question about my daughter, Abbie

Patti,

You were directing a couple questions to below that made me think of

my daughter's situation. She's currently on ratio 4.5:1 with a recent decrease

in calories of 1050/day (no meds). Several weeks ago when she was ill she

became seizure free (for the first time) which was wonderful, but now we've

noticed her back to having seizures. We decreased her calories to 1050/day

thinking that was why the seizures returned. When I check her ketones they are

large; at a lower ratio they were usually moderate thus the reason for raising

the ratio. She has been throwing up every once in awhile lately and we weren't

sure why. Could that be because of lowering the calories that much?

Just looking for any advice - it was so nice to see her seizure free.

Thank you,

, Abbie's mamma (keto kid since Oct. 03)

[Guest guest]

,

<<When we buy an oil, then we usually stick to it until it runs out. I will

definitely try the other oils that you mentioned and see if I can come up with

the concoction that you described.>>

There's a really good book about fats that you should try to get from the

library or something.... " Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill " , by Udo Erasmus. He is

brilliant. It's pretty technical in places, but you can get a lot of insight

into the different nutrient qualities in the various oils and how much of each

type the human body needs. At the very least, just giving a variety of different

oils .... not just one type.... and always, at least whenever possible, buying

them in the health food store... where you can get " expeller pressed " oils that

have not been damaged. Regular grocery store type cooking oils have been heat

processed and/or processed with chemical solvents in the extraction process. You

can find some of Udo Erasmus's articles online at his website:

www.udoerasmus.com ... but there is a lot of other good info out there on

healthy oils if you just do a search. If you use an oil like flax.... you need

to know that you can't cook with it. It needs to not be heated at all.... only

up to body temp.... so usually you add it to cold foods or wait till something

has cooled to about body temp, then add it, so you don't damage the nutrients.

Flax oil needs to be stored in the fridge. Olive oil and coconut oil are about

the only ones you can really cook with and not worry about heat damage.... I

think canola can take some lower temps,... not high ones.

<<We've noticed that Abbie isn't interested in eating her meals that much

lately. I think for a couple of reasons, she's getting sick of the same 'ol

meals that we're fixing her, and #2 because of the high ratio and low calorie

intake. Yesterday when we gave her the dinner meal she just looked at it and

started gagging. So, it's been a challenge lately. However, I did notice that

she wasn't having that many seizures again. The other day when she was throwing

up, cheeks red, and she kept having cluster seizures one after another - which

meant she probably was too ketotic, right?>>

, the gagging and refusing to eat is a HUGE red flag for reflux.... and

yes, probably being caused by too high a ratio.... getting overly ketotic. With

the red cheeks, too.... I'd bet the farm that's what you're dealing with.

Trouble with where you're at right now is that it becomes a vicious cycle. This

is what happened to Katera... she started refusing to eat/drink... got dehyrated

really badly and that exacerbated all the problems. We almost had to take her in

for IV hydration that summer.... she'd been on the diet about seven months at

that point.... and suddenly just got really intolerant of the high ketones. She

even had what we thought was pain from possible kidney stones so they did an US

but it was negative. Lowered the ratio a bit and she was fine..... but for a

while there, we had to force water down her one cc at a time and pretty much

force her food down. She knew, of course, that eating her meal would make her

tummy feel worse.

<<Regarding the carbs, she kept asking for crackers (I think mainly because her

little sister was getting crackers), so we ended up putting them in her meals.

We've tried zucchini but she didn't show too much interest for that. However,

maybe if I chop it up pretty well then she wouldn't think it's too bad - add

some butter w/ salt & pepper and she probably would like it even more>>

On the crackers..... I think there are probably some ideas we could come up

with. For example, you can take thin slices of cheese, lay them on a sheet of

foil and toast them under the broiler or toaster oven till they're bubbly. Then

when cool, they're crisy...... if she likes crunchy type stuff. Katera

couldn't chew that sort of thing.... I usually made zucchinni into a sort of

" quiche " ........ grated cooked zuke, cream cheese, egg, dried basil and a little

salt and pepper. I just nuked it a minute, stirred well and nuked another

minute....... then added butter or oil at the end. When we were dairy free, I

eliminated the cream cheese and used coconut milk and olive or coconut oil.

On the pumpkin...... I made it into a pumpkin custard. She ate this for

breakfast literally every single day, for a year. Canned pumpkin, egg, cream

cheese, cinnamon....... cooked the same way...... added oil or butter and

sweetener at the end. When dairy free, it was pumpkin, egg, coconut milk,

coconut oil and cinnamon. So, anyway, it was like pumpkin pie. I just bought

regular Libby's canned pumpkin..... make sure you don't buy the pumpkin pie

filling! Just the plain pumpkin! Anyway, you tend to get quite a bit of volume

for the carb allottment.

<<You mentioned several veggies below to make a pureed 'soup' - did you use any

liquid? Can we use chicken broth without weighing it? I was thinking that the

dietician told me during the hospital initiation that chicken broth was OK to

eat (kind of as a 'free food'). Is that true? I might have misunderstood

her.>>

What I did was to weigh out the cooked chicken and set it aside. Then I weighed

the celery and onion and pepper raw (cuz I think that's how they appear in the

mealplanner), weighed out the oil in olive oil.... then sauteed those veggies in

the oil. When soft, I added whatever cooked veggies I might have had room for,

allottment-wise... such as zucchini....added the cut up chicken....added water

(or broth), herbs, salt, and last of all, cream or coconut milk and butter

(depending on if we were doing dairy at the time). Stirred this all together,

whirred it in a blender. The consistency kinda depends on how much water or

broth you add.... so it can be a thick, spoonable soup.... or a drinkable one. I

always loved all of these all-in-one meals.... because each bite is the right

ratio, so if she didn't feel like eating it all, we could save some for a snack.

<<Abbie has eczema as well and I had never heard that that has a connection with

being sensitive to dairy.>>

It was the dietician's idea to try going non-dairy to see if Katera's skin would

get better...... but I think what really made the difference was getting some

better oils into her. We later added dairy back in the form of cheese and butter

with no more skin problems. Believe me...... using canned coconut milk with oils

stirred in turned out to be FAR, FAR easier for me.... so I just stuck to it,

even after we added dairy back. I live a half hour from the nearest supermarket

that has fresh cream without carrageenan, etc...... and then there would always

be times when I'd drive in to get cream and they'd be OUT!! So, having a few

cans of coconut milk in the pantry and bottles of various oils in the fridge

ended up being WAY less stressful for us.... and Katera like it. I think it just

made an excellent vehicle for getting the oils in.... and then the rest of the

meal didn't have to be fat-laden. I'm not very creative either..... I go for

what's easy and fast!

<<I plan to call her neuro today to see about lowering the ratio. We've been at

this ratio for awhile now and you're probably right about her fighting being in

ketosis. What ratio and calorie intake worked for your daughter?>>

Well, Katera would periodically get too ketotic again, even at lower

ratios....... We started out at only 3.5:1 but after only about two months, had

to lower to 3.2:1, then another month or so, 3:1. After a year, we were down at

2.5:1 and she was still making 160+ ketones and starting to get all the classic

signs.... refluxy, red faced, irritable, ketone breath, refusing to eat. At the

end, we were at 2:1 and still making heavy-duty ketones. When you think about

it, even THAT is a LOT of fat in the diet, in proportion to the other

components. A 2:1 ratio means 2/3 of your calories are from fat! Anyway.... I

know not every kid is like Katera..... but she's certainly not the only one who

was just intolerant of higher ratios. We didn't have good control in the last

Keto year.... and we really couldn't raise her ratio because of how she

responded..... but I now feel that I might be able to combine the SCD with a low

Keto ratio.... and just keep all the grain-based carbs out and *maybe* we could

tweak that. I'm still considering it.

<<Abbie has been so demanding and moody - I'm not sure if it's because she's 3

yrs. now or if it's the diet.>>

Well..... three year olds can be difficult..... but three year olds who don't

FEEL good can be even MORE difficult!

Good luck! Keep her hydrated!!

Patti

[Guest guest]

,

<<When we buy an oil, then we usually stick to it until it runs out. I will

definitely try the other oils that you mentioned and see if I can come up with

the concoction that you described.>>

There's a really good book about fats that you should try to get from the

library or something.... " Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill " , by Udo Erasmus. He is

brilliant. It's pretty technical in places, but you can get a lot of insight

into the different nutrient qualities in the various oils and how much of each

type the human body needs. At the very least, just giving a variety of different

oils .... not just one type.... and always, at least whenever possible, buying

them in the health food store... where you can get " expeller pressed " oils that

have not been damaged. Regular grocery store type cooking oils have been heat

processed and/or processed with chemical solvents in the extraction process. You

can find some of Udo Erasmus's articles online at his website:

www.udoerasmus.com ... but there is a lot of other good info out there on

healthy oils if you just do a search. If you use an oil like flax.... you need

to know that you can't cook with it. It needs to not be heated at all.... only

up to body temp.... so usually you add it to cold foods or wait till something

has cooled to about body temp, then add it, so you don't damage the nutrients.

Flax oil needs to be stored in the fridge. Olive oil and coconut oil are about

the only ones you can really cook with and not worry about heat damage.... I

think canola can take some lower temps,... not high ones.

<<We've noticed that Abbie isn't interested in eating her meals that much

lately. I think for a couple of reasons, she's getting sick of the same 'ol

meals that we're fixing her, and #2 because of the high ratio and low calorie

intake. Yesterday when we gave her the dinner meal she just looked at it and

started gagging. So, it's been a challenge lately. However, I did notice that

she wasn't having that many seizures again. The other day when she was throwing

up, cheeks red, and she kept having cluster seizures one after another - which

meant she probably was too ketotic, right?>>

, the gagging and refusing to eat is a HUGE red flag for reflux.... and

yes, probably being caused by too high a ratio.... getting overly ketotic. With

the red cheeks, too.... I'd bet the farm that's what you're dealing with.

Trouble with where you're at right now is that it becomes a vicious cycle. This

is what happened to Katera... she started refusing to eat/drink... got dehyrated

really badly and that exacerbated all the problems. We almost had to take her in

for IV hydration that summer.... she'd been on the diet about seven months at

that point.... and suddenly just got really intolerant of the high ketones. She

even had what we thought was pain from possible kidney stones so they did an US

but it was negative. Lowered the ratio a bit and she was fine..... but for a

while there, we had to force water down her one cc at a time and pretty much

force her food down. She knew, of course, that eating her meal would make her

tummy feel worse.

<<Regarding the carbs, she kept asking for crackers (I think mainly because her

little sister was getting crackers), so we ended up putting them in her meals.

We've tried zucchini but she didn't show too much interest for that. However,

maybe if I chop it up pretty well then she wouldn't think it's too bad - add

some butter w/ salt & pepper and she probably would like it even more>>

On the crackers..... I think there are probably some ideas we could come up

with. For example, you can take thin slices of cheese, lay them on a sheet of

foil and toast them under the broiler or toaster oven till they're bubbly. Then

when cool, they're crisy...... if she likes crunchy type stuff. Katera

couldn't chew that sort of thing.... I usually made zucchinni into a sort of

" quiche " ........ grated cooked zuke, cream cheese, egg, dried basil and a little

salt and pepper. I just nuked it a minute, stirred well and nuked another

minute....... then added butter or oil at the end. When we were dairy free, I

eliminated the cream cheese and used coconut milk and olive or coconut oil.

On the pumpkin...... I made it into a pumpkin custard. She ate this for

breakfast literally every single day, for a year. Canned pumpkin, egg, cream

cheese, cinnamon....... cooked the same way...... added oil or butter and

sweetener at the end. When dairy free, it was pumpkin, egg, coconut milk,

coconut oil and cinnamon. So, anyway, it was like pumpkin pie. I just bought

regular Libby's canned pumpkin..... make sure you don't buy the pumpkin pie

filling! Just the plain pumpkin! Anyway, you tend to get quite a bit of volume

for the carb allottment.

<<You mentioned several veggies below to make a pureed 'soup' - did you use any

liquid? Can we use chicken broth without weighing it? I was thinking that the

dietician told me during the hospital initiation that chicken broth was OK to

eat (kind of as a 'free food'). Is that true? I might have misunderstood

her.>>

What I did was to weigh out the cooked chicken and set it aside. Then I weighed

the celery and onion and pepper raw (cuz I think that's how they appear in the

mealplanner), weighed out the oil in olive oil.... then sauteed those veggies in

the oil. When soft, I added whatever cooked veggies I might have had room for,

allottment-wise... such as zucchini....added the cut up chicken....added water

(or broth), herbs, salt, and last of all, cream or coconut milk and butter

(depending on if we were doing dairy at the time). Stirred this all together,

whirred it in a blender. The consistency kinda depends on how much water or

broth you add.... so it can be a thick, spoonable soup.... or a drinkable one. I

always loved all of these all-in-one meals.... because each bite is the right

ratio, so if she didn't feel like eating it all, we could save some for a snack.

<<Abbie has eczema as well and I had never heard that that has a connection with

being sensitive to dairy.>>

It was the dietician's idea to try going non-dairy to see if Katera's skin would

get better...... but I think what really made the difference was getting some

better oils into her. We later added dairy back in the form of cheese and butter

with no more skin problems. Believe me...... using canned coconut milk with oils

stirred in turned out to be FAR, FAR easier for me.... so I just stuck to it,

even after we added dairy back. I live a half hour from the nearest supermarket

that has fresh cream without carrageenan, etc...... and then there would always

be times when I'd drive in to get cream and they'd be OUT!! So, having a few

cans of coconut milk in the pantry and bottles of various oils in the fridge

ended up being WAY less stressful for us.... and Katera like it. I think it just

made an excellent vehicle for getting the oils in.... and then the rest of the

meal didn't have to be fat-laden. I'm not very creative either..... I go for

what's easy and fast!

<<I plan to call her neuro today to see about lowering the ratio. We've been at

this ratio for awhile now and you're probably right about her fighting being in

ketosis. What ratio and calorie intake worked for your daughter?>>

Well, Katera would periodically get too ketotic again, even at lower

ratios....... We started out at only 3.5:1 but after only about two months, had

to lower to 3.2:1, then another month or so, 3:1. After a year, we were down at

2.5:1 and she was still making 160+ ketones and starting to get all the classic

signs.... refluxy, red faced, irritable, ketone breath, refusing to eat. At the

end, we were at 2:1 and still making heavy-duty ketones. When you think about

it, even THAT is a LOT of fat in the diet, in proportion to the other

components. A 2:1 ratio means 2/3 of your calories are from fat! Anyway.... I

know not every kid is like Katera..... but she's certainly not the only one who

was just intolerant of higher ratios. We didn't have good control in the last

Keto year.... and we really couldn't raise her ratio because of how she

responded..... but I now feel that I might be able to combine the SCD with a low

Keto ratio.... and just keep all the grain-based carbs out and *maybe* we could

tweak that. I'm still considering it.

<<Abbie has been so demanding and moody - I'm not sure if it's because she's 3

yrs. now or if it's the diet.>>

Well..... three year olds can be difficult..... but three year olds who don't

FEEL good can be even MORE difficult!

Good luck! Keep her hydrated!!

Patti

[Guest guest]

,

<<When we buy an oil, then we usually stick to it until it runs out. I will

definitely try the other oils that you mentioned and see if I can come up with

the concoction that you described.>>

There's a really good book about fats that you should try to get from the

library or something.... " Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill " , by Udo Erasmus. He is

brilliant. It's pretty technical in places, but you can get a lot of insight

into the different nutrient qualities in the various oils and how much of each

type the human body needs. At the very least, just giving a variety of different

oils .... not just one type.... and always, at least whenever possible, buying

them in the health food store... where you can get " expeller pressed " oils that

have not been damaged. Regular grocery store type cooking oils have been heat

processed and/or processed with chemical solvents in the extraction process. You

can find some of Udo Erasmus's articles online at his website:

www.udoerasmus.com ... but there is a lot of other good info out there on

healthy oils if you just do a search. If you use an oil like flax.... you need

to know that you can't cook with it. It needs to not be heated at all.... only

up to body temp.... so usually you add it to cold foods or wait till something

has cooled to about body temp, then add it, so you don't damage the nutrients.

Flax oil needs to be stored in the fridge. Olive oil and coconut oil are about

the only ones you can really cook with and not worry about heat damage.... I

think canola can take some lower temps,... not high ones.

<<We've noticed that Abbie isn't interested in eating her meals that much

lately. I think for a couple of reasons, she's getting sick of the same 'ol

meals that we're fixing her, and #2 because of the high ratio and low calorie

intake. Yesterday when we gave her the dinner meal she just looked at it and

started gagging. So, it's been a challenge lately. However, I did notice that

she wasn't having that many seizures again. The other day when she was throwing

up, cheeks red, and she kept having cluster seizures one after another - which

meant she probably was too ketotic, right?>>

, the gagging and refusing to eat is a HUGE red flag for reflux.... and

yes, probably being caused by too high a ratio.... getting overly ketotic. With

the red cheeks, too.... I'd bet the farm that's what you're dealing with.

Trouble with where you're at right now is that it becomes a vicious cycle. This

is what happened to Katera... she started refusing to eat/drink... got dehyrated

really badly and that exacerbated all the problems. We almost had to take her in

for IV hydration that summer.... she'd been on the diet about seven months at

that point.... and suddenly just got really intolerant of the high ketones. She

even had what we thought was pain from possible kidney stones so they did an US

but it was negative. Lowered the ratio a bit and she was fine..... but for a

while there, we had to force water down her one cc at a time and pretty much

force her food down. She knew, of course, that eating her meal would make her

tummy feel worse.

<<Regarding the carbs, she kept asking for crackers (I think mainly because her

little sister was getting crackers), so we ended up putting them in her meals.

We've tried zucchini but she didn't show too much interest for that. However,

maybe if I chop it up pretty well then she wouldn't think it's too bad - add

some butter w/ salt & pepper and she probably would like it even more>>

On the crackers..... I think there are probably some ideas we could come up

with. For example, you can take thin slices of cheese, lay them on a sheet of

foil and toast them under the broiler or toaster oven till they're bubbly. Then

when cool, they're crisy...... if she likes crunchy type stuff. Katera

couldn't chew that sort of thing.... I usually made zucchinni into a sort of

" quiche " ........ grated cooked zuke, cream cheese, egg, dried basil and a little

salt and pepper. I just nuked it a minute, stirred well and nuked another

minute....... then added butter or oil at the end. When we were dairy free, I

eliminated the cream cheese and used coconut milk and olive or coconut oil.

On the pumpkin...... I made it into a pumpkin custard. She ate this for

breakfast literally every single day, for a year. Canned pumpkin, egg, cream

cheese, cinnamon....... cooked the same way...... added oil or butter and

sweetener at the end. When dairy free, it was pumpkin, egg, coconut milk,

coconut oil and cinnamon. So, anyway, it was like pumpkin pie. I just bought

regular Libby's canned pumpkin..... make sure you don't buy the pumpkin pie

filling! Just the plain pumpkin! Anyway, you tend to get quite a bit of volume

for the carb allottment.

<<You mentioned several veggies below to make a pureed 'soup' - did you use any

liquid? Can we use chicken broth without weighing it? I was thinking that the

dietician told me during the hospital initiation that chicken broth was OK to

eat (kind of as a 'free food'). Is that true? I might have misunderstood

her.>>

What I did was to weigh out the cooked chicken and set it aside. Then I weighed

the celery and onion and pepper raw (cuz I think that's how they appear in the

mealplanner), weighed out the oil in olive oil.... then sauteed those veggies in

the oil. When soft, I added whatever cooked veggies I might have had room for,

allottment-wise... such as zucchini....added the cut up chicken....added water

(or broth), herbs, salt, and last of all, cream or coconut milk and butter

(depending on if we were doing dairy at the time). Stirred this all together,

whirred it in a blender. The consistency kinda depends on how much water or

broth you add.... so it can be a thick, spoonable soup.... or a drinkable one. I

always loved all of these all-in-one meals.... because each bite is the right

ratio, so if she didn't feel like eating it all, we could save some for a snack.

<<Abbie has eczema as well and I had never heard that that has a connection with

being sensitive to dairy.>>

It was the dietician's idea to try going non-dairy to see if Katera's skin would

get better...... but I think what really made the difference was getting some

better oils into her. We later added dairy back in the form of cheese and butter

with no more skin problems. Believe me...... using canned coconut milk with oils

stirred in turned out to be FAR, FAR easier for me.... so I just stuck to it,

even after we added dairy back. I live a half hour from the nearest supermarket

that has fresh cream without carrageenan, etc...... and then there would always

be times when I'd drive in to get cream and they'd be OUT!! So, having a few

cans of coconut milk in the pantry and bottles of various oils in the fridge

ended up being WAY less stressful for us.... and Katera like it. I think it just

made an excellent vehicle for getting the oils in.... and then the rest of the

meal didn't have to be fat-laden. I'm not very creative either..... I go for

what's easy and fast!

<<I plan to call her neuro today to see about lowering the ratio. We've been at

this ratio for awhile now and you're probably right about her fighting being in

ketosis. What ratio and calorie intake worked for your daughter?>>

Well, Katera would periodically get too ketotic again, even at lower

ratios....... We started out at only 3.5:1 but after only about two months, had

to lower to 3.2:1, then another month or so, 3:1. After a year, we were down at

2.5:1 and she was still making 160+ ketones and starting to get all the classic

signs.... refluxy, red faced, irritable, ketone breath, refusing to eat. At the

end, we were at 2:1 and still making heavy-duty ketones. When you think about

it, even THAT is a LOT of fat in the diet, in proportion to the other

components. A 2:1 ratio means 2/3 of your calories are from fat! Anyway.... I

know not every kid is like Katera..... but she's certainly not the only one who

was just intolerant of higher ratios. We didn't have good control in the last

Keto year.... and we really couldn't raise her ratio because of how she

responded..... but I now feel that I might be able to combine the SCD with a low

Keto ratio.... and just keep all the grain-based carbs out and *maybe* we could

tweak that. I'm still considering it.

<<Abbie has been so demanding and moody - I'm not sure if it's because she's 3

yrs. now or if it's the diet.>>

Well..... three year olds can be difficult..... but three year olds who don't

FEEL good can be even MORE difficult!

Good luck! Keep her hydrated!!

Patti

[Guest guest]

Patti,

Just to be accurate, since fat has 9 calories per gram and protein and

carbohydrate have 4 calories per gram, at 2:1 ratio, 9/11 or 82% of the

calories come from fat. At 3:1, it is 27/31 or 87%. That is only a 5%

difference in calories from fat.

Patti wrote:

>

>

> Well, Katera would periodically get too ketotic again, even at lower

> ratios....... We started out at only 3.5:1 but after only about two

> months, had to lower to 3.2:1, then another month or so, 3:1. After a

> year, we were down at 2.5:1 and she was still making 160+ ketones and

> starting to get all the classic signs.... refluxy, red faced,

> irritable, ketone breath, refusing to eat. At the end, we were at 2:1

> and still making heavy-duty ketones. When you think about it, even

> THAT is a LOT of fat in the diet, in proportion to the other

> components. A 2:1 ratio means 2/3 of your calories are from fat!

> Anyway.... I know not every kid is like Katera..... but she's

> certainly not the only one who was just intolerant of higher ratios.

> We didn't have good control in the last Keto year.... and we really

> couldn't raise her ratio because of how she responded..... but I now

> feel that I might be able to combine the SCD with a low Keto

> ratio.... and just keep all the grain-based carbs out and *maybe* we

> could tweak that. I'm still considering it.

>

[Guest guest]

Patti,

Just to be accurate, since fat has 9 calories per gram and protein and

carbohydrate have 4 calories per gram, at 2:1 ratio, 9/11 or 82% of the

calories come from fat. At 3:1, it is 27/31 or 87%. That is only a 5%

difference in calories from fat.

Patti wrote:

>

>

> Well, Katera would periodically get too ketotic again, even at lower

> ratios....... We started out at only 3.5:1 but after only about two

> months, had to lower to 3.2:1, then another month or so, 3:1. After a

> year, we were down at 2.5:1 and she was still making 160+ ketones and

> starting to get all the classic signs.... refluxy, red faced,

> irritable, ketone breath, refusing to eat. At the end, we were at 2:1

> and still making heavy-duty ketones. When you think about it, even

> THAT is a LOT of fat in the diet, in proportion to the other

> components. A 2:1 ratio means 2/3 of your calories are from fat!

> Anyway.... I know not every kid is like Katera..... but she's

> certainly not the only one who was just intolerant of higher ratios.

> We didn't have good control in the last Keto year.... and we really

> couldn't raise her ratio because of how she responded..... but I now

> feel that I might be able to combine the SCD with a low Keto

> ratio.... and just keep all the grain-based carbs out and *maybe* we

> could tweak that. I'm still considering it.

>