Re: : oh, please help w/ sleep problems

[Guest guest]

Martha,

I wish I had answers for you - there has got to be a way (somehow, someway)

where she can be awake and be safe, so you can let your guard down. Let us

know how it goes with the trazadone. Poor Andy - he will be getting teased

by his students, " Did you hear about the professor who was so boring that he

put himself to sleep? " Hope that makes you smile.

Kim

> Andy literally was falling asleep while lecturing standing up at the

> u. last week. This has to change...

> Martha

[Guest guest]

Martha,

I wish I had answers for you - there has got to be a way (somehow, someway)

where she can be awake and be safe, so you can let your guard down. Let us

know how it goes with the trazadone. Poor Andy - he will be getting teased

by his students, " Did you hear about the professor who was so boring that he

put himself to sleep? " Hope that makes you smile.

Kim

> Andy literally was falling asleep while lecturing standing up at the

> u. last week. This has to change...

> Martha

[Guest guest]

Hi Martha,

I'm trying to remember how old is, and what her level of functioning is

(somewhere between 8 & 10...is this close?). I think has probably

discovered her odd hours are getting Mom & Dad's goat, and as a double bonus she

gets some extra attention from you when you wake up with her. If you remove

those " incentives, " then maybe she will be more inclined to stay in bed and just

maybe fall back asleep. Since I do not remember her level of functioning, this

advice may have to be adjusted. I would " -proof " the down-stairs so that

she can't hurt herself, can't get into the fridge to get snacks, and can't do

anything fun while she's down there, like watch TV (maybe unplug the TV). And

then I would let her get up and go downstairs, but DO NOT go and interact with

her, not even to try and get her to go back to bed. And the next morning, if

she made it back to her bed--give her lots of praise, and if she didn't, don't

say anything about it. The next night just start her

back in bed and do the same thing. It will probably take some time, but

eventually she will get bored because there is not reaction from you.

This is how I'm imagining I might handle the situation...my little guy is not

even a year yet (so I'd appreciate feedback in knowing if my little vicarious

parenting works or not)!

(mom to Evan, 8 mos)

lewcap@... wrote:

To all,

I recall posting our old and successful remedies for sleep difficulties.

Suddenly, Andy and I are at a loss. I called my psychiatrist brother tonight;

he almost never gives suggestions. However, tonight, he suggested

giving 100 mg of Trazedone rather than her usual small dose but

said he didn't know enough about Melatonin to say anything.

got up @ 3:00 or before, yelling and stomping. For Tim: I really

don't think this was pain. Unfortunately, I think that K. has hit on getting up

to have a snack as an issue. Laurie Denno had us set the clock and also

make one showing that she had to stay in bed until 6:00. We'll keep

at that, but I doubt that it will work. She is simply hell bent on going

downstairs whenever she wakes.

I promise never to even suggest that we've solved a problem in the

future! It seems that our kiddos change as they grow.

That apology given, does anyone have ANY suggestions? We are just

out of it. Andy literally was falling asleep while lecturing standing up at the

u. last week. This has to change...

Martha

---------------------------------

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[Guest guest]

Hi Martha,

I'm trying to remember how old is, and what her level of functioning is

(somewhere between 8 & 10...is this close?). I think has probably

discovered her odd hours are getting Mom & Dad's goat, and as a double bonus she

gets some extra attention from you when you wake up with her. If you remove

those " incentives, " then maybe she will be more inclined to stay in bed and just

maybe fall back asleep. Since I do not remember her level of functioning, this

advice may have to be adjusted. I would " -proof " the down-stairs so that

she can't hurt herself, can't get into the fridge to get snacks, and can't do

anything fun while she's down there, like watch TV (maybe unplug the TV). And

then I would let her get up and go downstairs, but DO NOT go and interact with

her, not even to try and get her to go back to bed. And the next morning, if

she made it back to her bed--give her lots of praise, and if she didn't, don't

say anything about it. The next night just start her

back in bed and do the same thing. It will probably take some time, but

eventually she will get bored because there is not reaction from you.

This is how I'm imagining I might handle the situation...my little guy is not

even a year yet (so I'd appreciate feedback in knowing if my little vicarious

parenting works or not)!

(mom to Evan, 8 mos)

lewcap@... wrote:

To all,

I recall posting our old and successful remedies for sleep difficulties.

Suddenly, Andy and I are at a loss. I called my psychiatrist brother tonight;

he almost never gives suggestions. However, tonight, he suggested

giving 100 mg of Trazedone rather than her usual small dose but

said he didn't know enough about Melatonin to say anything.

got up @ 3:00 or before, yelling and stomping. For Tim: I really

don't think this was pain. Unfortunately, I think that K. has hit on getting up

to have a snack as an issue. Laurie Denno had us set the clock and also

make one showing that she had to stay in bed until 6:00. We'll keep

at that, but I doubt that it will work. She is simply hell bent on going

downstairs whenever she wakes.

I promise never to even suggest that we've solved a problem in the

future! It seems that our kiddos change as they grow.

That apology given, does anyone have ANY suggestions? We are just

out of it. Andy literally was falling asleep while lecturing standing up at the

u. last week. This has to change...

Martha

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Mail

Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.

[Guest guest]

Hi Martha,

I'm trying to remember how old is, and what her level of functioning is

(somewhere between 8 & 10...is this close?). I think has probably

discovered her odd hours are getting Mom & Dad's goat, and as a double bonus she

gets some extra attention from you when you wake up with her. If you remove

those " incentives, " then maybe she will be more inclined to stay in bed and just

maybe fall back asleep. Since I do not remember her level of functioning, this

advice may have to be adjusted. I would " -proof " the down-stairs so that

she can't hurt herself, can't get into the fridge to get snacks, and can't do

anything fun while she's down there, like watch TV (maybe unplug the TV). And

then I would let her get up and go downstairs, but DO NOT go and interact with

her, not even to try and get her to go back to bed. And the next morning, if

she made it back to her bed--give her lots of praise, and if she didn't, don't

say anything about it. The next night just start her

back in bed and do the same thing. It will probably take some time, but

eventually she will get bored because there is not reaction from you.

This is how I'm imagining I might handle the situation...my little guy is not

even a year yet (so I'd appreciate feedback in knowing if my little vicarious

parenting works or not)!

(mom to Evan, 8 mos)

lewcap@... wrote:

To all,

I recall posting our old and successful remedies for sleep difficulties.

Suddenly, Andy and I are at a loss. I called my psychiatrist brother tonight;

he almost never gives suggestions. However, tonight, he suggested

giving 100 mg of Trazedone rather than her usual small dose but

said he didn't know enough about Melatonin to say anything.

got up @ 3:00 or before, yelling and stomping. For Tim: I really

don't think this was pain. Unfortunately, I think that K. has hit on getting up

to have a snack as an issue. Laurie Denno had us set the clock and also

make one showing that she had to stay in bed until 6:00. We'll keep

at that, but I doubt that it will work. She is simply hell bent on going

downstairs whenever she wakes.

I promise never to even suggest that we've solved a problem in the

future! It seems that our kiddos change as they grow.

That apology given, does anyone have ANY suggestions? We are just

out of it. Andy literally was falling asleep while lecturing standing up at the

u. last week. This has to change...

Martha

---------------------------------

Yahoo! Mail

Bring photos to life! New PhotoMail makes sharing a breeze.

[Guest guest]

> don't think this was pain. Unfortunately, I think that K. has hit

on getting up

> to have a snack as an issue.

Martha,

Could you set a snack up in her room before she goes to bed and show

it to her and tell her if you wake up in the night, you have to have

your snack in your room? I'm not sure if this would work or not, but

it's worth a try.

Good luck, no sleep bites...

Mom to Kennedy

[Guest guest]

> don't think this was pain. Unfortunately, I think that K. has hit

on getting up

> to have a snack as an issue.

Martha,

Could you set a snack up in her room before she goes to bed and show

it to her and tell her if you wake up in the night, you have to have

your snack in your room? I'm not sure if this would work or not, but

it's worth a try.

Good luck, no sleep bites...

Mom to Kennedy

[Guest guest]

> don't think this was pain. Unfortunately, I think that K. has hit

on getting up

> to have a snack as an issue.

Martha,

Could you set a snack up in her room before she goes to bed and show

it to her and tell her if you wake up in the night, you have to have

your snack in your room? I'm not sure if this would work or not, but

it's worth a try.

Good luck, no sleep bites...

Mom to Kennedy

[Guest guest]

Martha,

So there's another reason I love Laurie! What she told you is what we did

that worked. Sleep used to be a battle for us and as soon as she could control

the TV we allowed Patty to watch it and that let us sleep. That didn't really

work as she " learned " to do that. We tried tons and tons of things and you

will never guess what finally worked! We had a note card and wrote 5:00 on it

and told her that was the time she could get out of her bed. We also put a

glass of water on her night stand and said if she were thirsty she could drink

that and not get out of bed for anything else, even if she were hungry.

Now of course Patty was one little smarty pants. She learned that if she

said she had to go to the bathroom she was able to get out of her bed. As she

wasn't even totally dry at night I responded instantly to her at first. Then I

realized she was getting a positive connection from me (though it was a

negative for me!). So, we set a timer. If she didn't go within two minutes she

had

to go back to bed. She would scream " Not done yet " but I had to make her go

to bed anyway. I couldn't have a conversation with her about anything, even

about her nightmares or really night terrors!

Now with the learning patterns for Patty we had to throw all that out the

window when she was ill. Then it was back to the beginning.

I have to also admit that it wasn't easy. If Patty got out of her bed I had

to make sure I sent her right back WITHOUT EMOTIONS or conversation. If she

said she had to go the bathroom and didn't go within the two minutes I had to

tell her time's up and send her back to bed WITHOUT EMOTIONS. She'd get out of

bed and I would bring her back, she'd get out and I would bring her back,

she'd get out.... Every time I brought her back I showed her the time and said

it's not time yet. It took about two weeks for her to realize I was sticking

to my guns. UGH that was hard. But it was the thing that worked.

The hardest part of all of it was not showing irritation in the middle of the

night. Who's calm when you are continually waking and have to deal with the

sleep issues. And last when worse came to worse I allowed her to sleep on our

bedroom floor or the " magic " couch. That was a pull out couch that kept bad

dreams away. For some silly reason she stayed in it. Who knows why?

Patty also had a dream catcher if that helps any. That makes good dreams go

through and bad dreams get caught. We read a book about it and then we made

the dream catchers together and talked about it as we did it. It helped her.

Her sister had one too. I think they still have them!

Oh, and one more thing that we still use today. If she can't sleep she

drinks warm " night time " tea. It is not caffeinated. I also sometimes put

ginger

and/or lemon in it. I think it loosens the guck in her head, comforts her

stomach and calms her body enough to relax.

I am also a person who has her own sleep problems. I have insomnia every now

and then. If I stay up later than my own bedtime then I just can't sleep.

If I have sugar or ice cream at night I can't sleep. If I have Mac 's I

can''t sleep. If I am worried I can't sleep. If I...I can't sleep. a

is the same as me so we are able to understand Patty more. ( falls

asleep as soon as his head hits that pillow) There are also mind games we play

to

sleep. We " erase " any thoughts we have to keep our mind from thinking. We

" change channels " and by that I mean we try to think about something else like

the types of professions that people work at during the night. We count

backwards from 1,000 and we do relaxation techniques making our feet calm and

heavy

first, then our ankles, then our lower legs, then our knees, and so on till

our body is heavy and calm. That helps tons too. Finally, we force ourselves

to stay in bed as long as we can.

I know you probably know to do all this and more. But that's all I got.

Good luck!

Bonnie, Mom to Kris 23, Patty CHARGE 21 and wife to

[Guest guest]

Martha,

So there's another reason I love Laurie! What she told you is what we did

that worked. Sleep used to be a battle for us and as soon as she could control

the TV we allowed Patty to watch it and that let us sleep. That didn't really

work as she " learned " to do that. We tried tons and tons of things and you

will never guess what finally worked! We had a note card and wrote 5:00 on it

and told her that was the time she could get out of her bed. We also put a

glass of water on her night stand and said if she were thirsty she could drink

that and not get out of bed for anything else, even if she were hungry.

Now of course Patty was one little smarty pants. She learned that if she

said she had to go to the bathroom she was able to get out of her bed. As she

wasn't even totally dry at night I responded instantly to her at first. Then I

realized she was getting a positive connection from me (though it was a

negative for me!). So, we set a timer. If she didn't go within two minutes she

had

to go back to bed. She would scream " Not done yet " but I had to make her go

to bed anyway. I couldn't have a conversation with her about anything, even

about her nightmares or really night terrors!

Now with the learning patterns for Patty we had to throw all that out the

window when she was ill. Then it was back to the beginning.

I have to also admit that it wasn't easy. If Patty got out of her bed I had

to make sure I sent her right back WITHOUT EMOTIONS or conversation. If she

said she had to go the bathroom and didn't go within the two minutes I had to

tell her time's up and send her back to bed WITHOUT EMOTIONS. She'd get out of

bed and I would bring her back, she'd get out and I would bring her back,

she'd get out.... Every time I brought her back I showed her the time and said

it's not time yet. It took about two weeks for her to realize I was sticking

to my guns. UGH that was hard. But it was the thing that worked.

The hardest part of all of it was not showing irritation in the middle of the

night. Who's calm when you are continually waking and have to deal with the

sleep issues. And last when worse came to worse I allowed her to sleep on our

bedroom floor or the " magic " couch. That was a pull out couch that kept bad

dreams away. For some silly reason she stayed in it. Who knows why?

Patty also had a dream catcher if that helps any. That makes good dreams go

through and bad dreams get caught. We read a book about it and then we made

the dream catchers together and talked about it as we did it. It helped her.

Her sister had one too. I think they still have them!

Oh, and one more thing that we still use today. If she can't sleep she

drinks warm " night time " tea. It is not caffeinated. I also sometimes put

ginger

and/or lemon in it. I think it loosens the guck in her head, comforts her

stomach and calms her body enough to relax.

I am also a person who has her own sleep problems. I have insomnia every now

and then. If I stay up later than my own bedtime then I just can't sleep.

If I have sugar or ice cream at night I can't sleep. If I have Mac 's I

can''t sleep. If I am worried I can't sleep. If I...I can't sleep. a

is the same as me so we are able to understand Patty more. ( falls

asleep as soon as his head hits that pillow) There are also mind games we play

to

sleep. We " erase " any thoughts we have to keep our mind from thinking. We

" change channels " and by that I mean we try to think about something else like

the types of professions that people work at during the night. We count

backwards from 1,000 and we do relaxation techniques making our feet calm and

heavy

first, then our ankles, then our lower legs, then our knees, and so on till

our body is heavy and calm. That helps tons too. Finally, we force ourselves

to stay in bed as long as we can.

I know you probably know to do all this and more. But that's all I got.

Good luck!

Bonnie, Mom to Kris 23, Patty CHARGE 21 and wife to

[Guest guest]

To all, but especially Tim, Bonnie, , , and Kim:

I'll respond more later. We've had a hellish night already, and it's not

even midnight, nor is it a issue. Tornados all around, sirens

blasting. Used Tim's and my brother's input on meds; then, of course, I

had to drag to the basement, really cutting into any hope for sleep. I

truly don't think there's a way during a crisis to explain to a visually

impaired and totally deaf individual why she has to sit on the basement

steps with the dogs in the middle of the night. Said dogs had me go

outside with them in my nightgown and Birkenstocks because they

needed my motherly reassurance... Life here stays odd.

At any rate, when the weather calms and I have a minute, I really want to

reply. Everything you said rang a big bell, Bonnnie, and Kim you brought

me a big grin!

The thunder has started again. Bye. Martha

[Guest guest]

To all, but especially Tim, Bonnie, , , and Kim:

I'll respond more later. We've had a hellish night already, and it's not

even midnight, nor is it a issue. Tornados all around, sirens

blasting. Used Tim's and my brother's input on meds; then, of course, I

had to drag to the basement, really cutting into any hope for sleep. I

truly don't think there's a way during a crisis to explain to a visually

impaired and totally deaf individual why she has to sit on the basement

steps with the dogs in the middle of the night. Said dogs had me go

outside with them in my nightgown and Birkenstocks because they

needed my motherly reassurance... Life here stays odd.

At any rate, when the weather calms and I have a minute, I really want to

reply. Everything you said rang a big bell, Bonnnie, and Kim you brought

me a big grin!

The thunder has started again. Bye. Martha

[Guest guest]

To all, but especially Tim, Bonnie, , , and Kim:

I'll respond more later. We've had a hellish night already, and it's not

even midnight, nor is it a issue. Tornados all around, sirens

blasting. Used Tim's and my brother's input on meds; then, of course, I

had to drag to the basement, really cutting into any hope for sleep. I

truly don't think there's a way during a crisis to explain to a visually

impaired and totally deaf individual why she has to sit on the basement

steps with the dogs in the middle of the night. Said dogs had me go

outside with them in my nightgown and Birkenstocks because they

needed my motherly reassurance... Life here stays odd.

At any rate, when the weather calms and I have a minute, I really want to

reply. Everything you said rang a big bell, Bonnnie, and Kim you brought

me a big grin!

The thunder has started again. Bye. Martha

[Guest guest]

martha do something for me do us ausies a favour and send that rain and

stuff oru way love you

>

> To all, but especially Tim, Bonnie, , , and Kim:

> I'll respond more later. We've had a hellish night already, and it's

> not

> even midnight, nor is it a issue. Tornados all around, sirens

> blasting. Used Tim's and my brother's input on meds; then, of course, I

> had to drag to the basement, really cutting into any hope for sleep.

> I

> truly don't think there's a way during a crisis to explain to a visually

> impaired and totally deaf individual why she has to sit on the basement

> steps with the dogs in the middle of the night. Said dogs had me go

> outside with them in my nightgown and Birkenstocks because they

> needed my motherly reassurance... Life here stays odd.

> At any rate, when the weather calms and I have a minute, I really want

> to

> reply. Everything you said rang a big bell, Bonnnie, and Kim you brought

> me a big grin!

> The thunder has started again. Bye. Martha

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

martha do something for me do us ausies a favour and send that rain and

stuff oru way love you

>

> To all, but especially Tim, Bonnie, , , and Kim:

> I'll respond more later. We've had a hellish night already, and it's

> not

> even midnight, nor is it a issue. Tornados all around, sirens

> blasting. Used Tim's and my brother's input on meds; then, of course, I

> had to drag to the basement, really cutting into any hope for sleep.

> I

> truly don't think there's a way during a crisis to explain to a visually

> impaired and totally deaf individual why she has to sit on the basement

> steps with the dogs in the middle of the night. Said dogs had me go

> outside with them in my nightgown and Birkenstocks because they

> needed my motherly reassurance... Life here stays odd.

> At any rate, when the weather calms and I have a minute, I really want

> to

> reply. Everything you said rang a big bell, Bonnnie, and Kim you brought

> me a big grin!

> The thunder has started again. Bye. Martha

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

martha do something for me do us ausies a favour and send that rain and

stuff oru way love you

>

> To all, but especially Tim, Bonnie, , , and Kim:

> I'll respond more later. We've had a hellish night already, and it's

> not

> even midnight, nor is it a issue. Tornados all around, sirens

> blasting. Used Tim's and my brother's input on meds; then, of course, I

> had to drag to the basement, really cutting into any hope for sleep.

> I

> truly don't think there's a way during a crisis to explain to a visually

> impaired and totally deaf individual why she has to sit on the basement

> steps with the dogs in the middle of the night. Said dogs had me go

> outside with them in my nightgown and Birkenstocks because they

> needed my motherly reassurance... Life here stays odd.

> At any rate, when the weather calms and I have a minute, I really want

> to

> reply. Everything you said rang a big bell, Bonnnie, and Kim you brought

> me a big grin!

> The thunder has started again. Bye. Martha

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Martha,

One does wonder about the timing of life sometimes. You finally have her

sound asleep and then have to force her awake. Do you know anyone who

writes scripts for movies, they may need a little inspiration. (Hope you

are laughing.) It is either that or screaming!

Kim

> To all, but especially Tim, Bonnie, , , and Kim:

> I'll respond more later. We've had a hellish night already, and it's not

> even midnight, nor is it a issue. Tornados all around, sirens

> blasting. Used Tim's and my brother's input on meds; then, of course, I

> had to drag to the basement, really cutting into any hope for sleep. I

> truly don't think there's a way during a crisis to explain to a visually

> impaired and totally deaf individual why she has to sit on the basement

> steps with the dogs in the middle of the night. Said dogs had me go

> outside with them in my nightgown and Birkenstocks because they

> needed my motherly reassurance... Life here stays odd.

> At any rate, when the weather calms and I have a minute, I really want to

> reply. Everything you said rang a big bell, Bonnnie, and Kim you brought

> me a big grin!

> The thunder has started again. Bye. Martha

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Martha,

No pearls of wisdom from this end but lots of empathy and sympathy as I am

having 's problem today. At the other end of the spectrum, our little

imp was also awake from 3.30am having gone to sleep at 10.30pm! Age 5 and 5

hours sleep. Well, off she went to school (you don't get off that lightly

around here!) and poor teachers nearly had another panic when she fell

asleep on the way back from a school trip. She NEVER falls asleep in

transport. They had trouble waking her so since she had a fit two weeks

ago, they thought this was what it was this time too. Little horror got

lots of sympathy and bounced back to " health " after her nap. Me? I have

been trying to stay awake most of the day.

Hope you find some answers soon before you all get too spaced out for

to even stay upright in his lectures. At least I know our situation will be

short-lived for until she gets whatever bug she is now bound to be brewing

out of her system, then she will be back to perhaps x2 per week waking

instead of every night.....until the next bug comes along.

With increasing understanding of where you are...........

Flo

[Guest guest]

Martha,

No pearls of wisdom from this end but lots of empathy and sympathy as I am

having 's problem today. At the other end of the spectrum, our little

imp was also awake from 3.30am having gone to sleep at 10.30pm! Age 5 and 5

hours sleep. Well, off she went to school (you don't get off that lightly

around here!) and poor teachers nearly had another panic when she fell

asleep on the way back from a school trip. She NEVER falls asleep in

transport. They had trouble waking her so since she had a fit two weeks

ago, they thought this was what it was this time too. Little horror got

lots of sympathy and bounced back to " health " after her nap. Me? I have

been trying to stay awake most of the day.

Hope you find some answers soon before you all get too spaced out for

to even stay upright in his lectures. At least I know our situation will be

short-lived for until she gets whatever bug she is now bound to be brewing

out of her system, then she will be back to perhaps x2 per week waking

instead of every night.....until the next bug comes along.

With increasing understanding of where you are...........

Flo

[Guest guest]

Martha,

No pearls of wisdom from this end but lots of empathy and sympathy as I am

having 's problem today. At the other end of the spectrum, our little

imp was also awake from 3.30am having gone to sleep at 10.30pm! Age 5 and 5

hours sleep. Well, off she went to school (you don't get off that lightly

around here!) and poor teachers nearly had another panic when she fell

asleep on the way back from a school trip. She NEVER falls asleep in

transport. They had trouble waking her so since she had a fit two weeks

ago, they thought this was what it was this time too. Little horror got

lots of sympathy and bounced back to " health " after her nap. Me? I have

been trying to stay awake most of the day.

Hope you find some answers soon before you all get too spaced out for

to even stay upright in his lectures. At least I know our situation will be

short-lived for until she gets whatever bug she is now bound to be brewing

out of her system, then she will be back to perhaps x2 per week waking

instead of every night.....until the next bug comes along.

With increasing understanding of where you are...........

Flo

[Guest guest]

um flo ylu might think this is a sutpid idea but when she has the cochlear

implant thing in hosp just dont go with her stay home take a hol and just

tell the cdrs that they have to deal with the sleepnesses for a while i know

this is really stupid since ur are mum LOL love u ellen

>

> Martha,

> No pearls of wisdom from this end but lots of empathy and sympathy as I am

> having 's problem today. At the other end of the spectrum, our little

> imp was also awake from 3.30am having gone to sleep at 10.30pm! Age 5 and

> 5

> hours sleep. Well, off she went to school (you don't get off that lightly

> around here!) and poor teachers nearly had another panic when she fell

> asleep on the way back from a school trip. She NEVER falls asleep in

> transport. They had trouble waking her so since she had a fit two weeks

> ago, they thought this was what it was this time too. Little horror got

> lots of sympathy and bounced back to " health " after her nap. Me? I have

> been trying to stay awake most of the day.

>

> Hope you find some answers soon before you all get too spaced out for

> to even stay upright in his lectures. At least I know our situation will

> be

> short-lived for until she gets whatever bug she is now bound to be brewing

> out of her system, then she will be back to perhaps x2 per week waking

> instead of every night.....until the next bug comes along.

>

> With increasing understanding of where you are...........

> Flo

>

>

>