Re: exercise reprise

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/1/2004 9:41:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

billy171@... writes:

> I oppose using your

> own body to do studies for known triggers to see if it (say drinking)

> is a trigger for them. I strongly believe that: AF begets AF ! And

> that remodeling is a big issue. ( lots of mainstream studies )

>

> In my case the adrenaline pumped into the body during exercise was

> also a problem. I think it may be possible, to work up to a

> reasonable level. One must first get the inflammation of the cardiac

> tissue settled down. I would advise everyone with AF to take 60% of

>

,

I have also worried about the remodeling issue, but after more than 20 years

of afib, sometimes 50 percent of the time, I am still not remodeled. After

experimenting with triggers, especially dairy, I am now in sinus about 99

percent of the time, far less than at any time for the past 18 years. This

represents a drastic improvement over two and a half years ago when I was in

afib 50

percent of the time. If I was remodeled, I guess the remodeling has been

remodeled :-) My EP has stated that he believes I would be in permanent afib by

now if I were going to be. He thinks I will never be permanent. Either he is

saying that to make me feel more optimistic or he doesn't subscribe to the

remodeling theory because I have more than enough afib to leave me thoroughly

remodeled.

Regarding the exercise, because we are all so individual, I would recommend

that each person should ask his or her doctor about the appropriate individual

level. My doctor said there are no restrictions on my exercise, but for

someone else even a 60 percent heart rate level might be too much. We're all

different, and our doctors are our best source of advice because they have the

expertise to interpret out individual needs.

in sinus in Seattle

[Guest guest]

wrote:

<<I would advise everyone with AF to take 60% of max heart rate as a

(sustained) upper limit.>>

An interesting bit of trivia is that when they did my exercise stress

test they actually pushed me slightly beyond my theoretical maximum

heart rate and kept me there for three minutes. I think they miscalculated.

- OU alum in MI

[Guest guest]

> wrote:

> I have also worried about the remodeling issue, but after more than

20 years of afib, sometimes 50 percent of the time, I am still not

remodeled. ...

we share the no-dairy thing ... see my post of May 27 or 28.

I am glad you somehow avoided remodeling. I also avoid all high fat

meals . I have no illusions; a few weeks of poor eating ( or other

events) and i will be back in Afib and may never get back to NSR

again.

what did yu or teh doctors do to get you out of Afib?

when i say sustained exercise i mean in the order of an hour . for me

(i have a slow beat, resting at 48 ) I routinely walk at around 100

beats per minute for about 2 hours.

[Guest guest]

wrote:

> [sNIP I oppose using your

> own body to do studies for known triggers to see if it (say drinking)

> is a trigger for them. I strongly believe that: AF begets AF !

> {SNIP] I would advise everyone with AF to take 60% of

> max heart rate as a (sustained) upper limit.

Hi

Isn't this advice going against your thoughts about using your body as

self study. 60% max heart rate is too high for me and will put me in AF

when I stop. It's only through self experimentation I've discovered this

and it's only through self experimentation I've found ways to shorten

my episodes. AF may well beget AF - hence the desire to prevent or

shorten episodes. Doing nothing might mean you stay in AF longer and

have more frequent episodes which can't be very good for the AF begets

AF argument.

Each to his own of course, and everyone's boundaries are different but

I'm not convinced that no experimentation is better than some. (there

may well be a point when too much, or the wrong type of, experimentation

could be detrimental).

All the best.

--

D

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/1/2004 10:46:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

billy171@... writes:

> what did yu or teh doctors do to get you out of Afib?

>

,

I was never in permanent afib, but my paroxysmal afib virtually stopped nine

months after I gave up dairy products. I attribute the change in my afib

status to giving up dairy products because I remained on the same medications

that

never kept me out of afib before and nothing else changed. My afib grew much

worse about four months after I gave up dairy, remained worse for the next

4-5 months during which I was in afib about 50 percent of the time, then

virtually disappeared. The doctors didn't do anything except continue to

prescribe

the same meds. In fact, one gastroenterologist told me that he doubted that

giving up dairy would have any effect on my afib. My cardiologist, however,

said that it could work if the dairy products had somehow been causing vasovagal

stimulation. Dairy products were definitely an afib trigger for me, but

experience with giving up dairy taught me that the effects of triggers and

giving

up triggers sometimes take along time to manifest themselves. Like you, I am

sure that if I did not continue to watch what I eat and avoid stress as much as

possible, I would find myself back on my old afib schedule of afib at least

every 11-14 days.

in sinus in Seattle

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 6/1/2004 10:46:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

billy171@... writes:

> what did yu or teh doctors do to get you out of Afib?

>

,

I was never in permanent afib, but my paroxysmal afib virtually stopped nine

months after I gave up dairy products. I attribute the change in my afib

status to giving up dairy products because I remained on the same medications

that

never kept me out of afib before and nothing else changed. My afib grew much

worse about four months after I gave up dairy, remained worse for the next

4-5 months during which I was in afib about 50 percent of the time, then

virtually disappeared. The doctors didn't do anything except continue to

prescribe

the same meds. In fact, one gastroenterologist told me that he doubted that

giving up dairy would have any effect on my afib. My cardiologist, however,

said that it could work if the dairy products had somehow been causing vasovagal

stimulation. Dairy products were definitely an afib trigger for me, but

experience with giving up dairy taught me that the effects of triggers and

giving

up triggers sometimes take along time to manifest themselves. Like you, I am

sure that if I did not continue to watch what I eat and avoid stress as much as

possible, I would find myself back on my old afib schedule of afib at least

every 11-14 days.

in sinus in Seattle

[Guest guest]

> Hi

> Isn't this advice going against your thoughts about using your body

as self study....

Hi

It is a warning against putting ones health at risk by re-testing

commonly accepted triggers. Often denial plays a role. I tried

drinking 20 times before I understood what was happening.

Do watch for personal triggers but this is often easier said than

done. Often one can come up with a hypothesis and the real world

seems to confirm it. Rhinoceros horn for erectile disjunction only

now seems silly in the face of viagra.

I do a number of things which may be doing nothing but wasting my

money; but most of them (apparently) do not trigger AFib.

Experiment to try to solve the problem by looking for ways to settle

the heart. Exercise to get the well reputed benefits but avoid being

weekend warrior or worse once this year (lifetime) marathon runners.

I know this forum is focused on support. I suggest readers review

Hans Larsen's ( www.afibbers.org) for interesting contrarian views on

AFib.

[Guest guest]

> > Hi

> > Isn't this advice going against your thoughts about using your body

> as self study....

>

> Hi

> It is a warning against putting ones health at risk by re-testing

> commonly accepted triggers. Often denial plays a role. I tried

> drinking 20 times before I understood what was happening.

Hi,

I don't know of any single trigger that hits 100% of AFers.

I don't even know of a trigger that hits 50% of us. Without

re-testing I'm not sure how you avoid the right things.

Avoiding all the triggers is just not possible.

e.g. although I gave up alcohol for over a year I've since discovered it

raises my heart rate, which is a benefit to me. On the flip side of the

coin, although I would be described as having vagal AF I use a beta

blocker for rate control when I go into AF. (I take them on demand now

but have taken them daily without them increasing the frequency of

episodes - which my doctors (and me) are unable to fathom).

> Do watch for personal triggers but this is often easier said than

> done. Often one can come up with a hypothesis and the real world

> seems to confirm it. Rhinoceros horn for erectile disjunction only

> now seems silly in the face of viagra.

> I do a number of things which may be doing nothing but wasting my

> money; but most of them (apparently) do not trigger AFib.

>

I quite agree, many people fall into the trap of 'after, therefore

because of' but it takes some careful and repetitive experimenting to

find out what is good or bad for ones AF. For a long time I believed

that pizza was a trigger for my AF - it isn't but a whole pizza in the

late evening is. (i.e. it's a large meal - of any type of food that

causes me problems in the late evening). Pizza just tended to be the

thing I over indulged in late in the day, so I came to the wrong

conclusion. Without repetitive experimenting I would still be non the

wiser.

> Experiment to try to solve the problem by looking for ways to settle

> the heart. Exercise to get the well reputed benefits but avoid being

> weekend warrior or worse once this year (lifetime) marathon runners.

I agree but isn't this contrary to your view of

'I oppose using your own body to do studies for known triggers to see if

it (say drinking) is a trigger for them.'

I don't believe it's possible to just find the things that benefit your

AF without hitting a few of the bad things on the way. But I believe the

benefit in searching is better than doing nothing and avoiding the bad

things may prove to be just as beneficial as doing the good.

> I know this forum is focused on support. I suggest readers review

> Hans Larsen's ( www.afibbers.org) for interesting contrarian views on

> AFib.

>

Hans' site is certainly recommended reading for the technically minded

but trigger discussions fit well in this group's raison d'etre.

" The purpose of the website is to share our experiences, knowledge in a

kind and caring manner. "

--

D