Re: Phenobarbital fallout?

[Guest guest]

If I remember correctly, Mike went thru a bit of this as well while reducing and

shortly after he was off phenobarb. He also would laugh for no reason. Mike was

very emotionally 'numb' while on it and was only on it for approx a year or a

bit more. Since reducing he has woken up more, and is more sensitive both

feelings wise and physically to pain. Took a few months for him to 'regulate'

after the phenobarb was all gone.

Our Emma who is 2 has been on the diet since last May. While she is

not Sz free, the diet has helped her tremendously in the length and

severity of her Sz as well as her development. She started the diet

on Phenobarbitol, neurontin, lamictal,and depakote. She was a

Zombie. We have been weaning her meds slowly. Now she is only on

Neurontin. She finnished Phenobarbitol about 2 weeks ago(she had

been on it since she was 17 days old!) We are very happy however,

Since stopping her pheno, Emma has been so emotional,sad. She has

this sad " woe is me " crying jags. She'll cry for anything, getting

dressed,if I sneeze, if someone laughs. This is very new to us

because so far the only time she would cry is if she was in pain.

blood tests ect. Emma hasnt really shown emotion untill now. No

smiles,laughs, crying or fustration. I'm just asking people who have

had expeirence with phenobarbitol if you think her emotional crying

is a result of her comming off it? Do you think she will work though

it? could it be part of withdrawl? Any experience will be helpful.

Thanks,

Dawn, Emma's mom

[Guest guest]

I would geuss its withdrawl, although we never had that kind of direct

experience with phenobarb. We did get something similar when we weaned

depakote. The other thing is, if she's been a " zombie " as you say, for a

large part of her life, she might be truly experiencing the world for

the first time and may find it overwhelming, its the coming out of a

drug-induced haze. Some kids seem to develop sensory overload. I would

take a deep breath, give her a hug, support her and hang tight

, 's mom

emmacatsmom wrote:

> Our Emma who is 2 has been on the diet since last May. While she is

> not Sz free, the diet has helped her tremendously in the length and

> severity of her Sz as well as her development. She started the diet

> on Phenobarbitol, neurontin, lamictal,and depakote. She was a

> Zombie. We have been weaning her meds slowly. Now she is only on

> Neurontin. She finnished Phenobarbitol about 2 weeks ago(she had

> been on it since she was 17 days old!) We are very happy however,

> Since stopping her pheno, Emma has been so emotional,sad. She has

> this sad " woe is me " crying jags. She'll cry for anything, getting

> dressed,if I sneeze, if someone laughs. This is very new to us

> because so far the only time she would cry is if she was in pain.

> blood tests ect. Emma hasnt really shown emotion untill now. No

> smiles,laughs, crying or fustration. I'm just asking people who have

> had expeirence with phenobarbitol if you think her emotional crying

> is a result of her comming off it? Do you think she will work though

> it? could it be part of withdrawl? Any experience will be helpful.

> Thanks,

> Dawn, Emma's mom

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I have a 6 year old on the diet, and I have a four year old with

febrile seizures. My four year old has been on phenobarb since April

as a precaution. Her new neuro wanted her off, so we are weaning.

We are about halfway there, and she has been extremely emotional and

moody since we've been weaning. The slightest little thing sets her

off. I believe it is the withdrawal. She was on a low dose to start

with, and she doesn't have much left to wean. I can't wait to get it

out of her system and hopefully see an improvement. I'm hoping

you'll see the same, too.

Best wishes,

Glenna

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I have a 6 year old on the diet, and I have a four year old with

febrile seizures. My four year old has been on phenobarb since April

as a precaution. Her new neuro wanted her off, so we are weaning.

We are about halfway there, and she has been extremely emotional and

moody since we've been weaning. The slightest little thing sets her

off. I believe it is the withdrawal. She was on a low dose to start

with, and she doesn't have much left to wean. I can't wait to get it

out of her system and hopefully see an improvement. I'm hoping

you'll see the same, too.

Best wishes,

Glenna

[Guest guest]

Hi,

I have a 6 year old on the diet, and I have a four year old with

febrile seizures. My four year old has been on phenobarb since April

as a precaution. Her new neuro wanted her off, so we are weaning.

We are about halfway there, and she has been extremely emotional and

moody since we've been weaning. The slightest little thing sets her

off. I believe it is the withdrawal. She was on a low dose to start

with, and she doesn't have much left to wean. I can't wait to get it

out of her system and hopefully see an improvement. I'm hoping

you'll see the same, too.

Best wishes,

Glenna

[Guest guest]

Dawn, and others,

I haven't posted for awhile, but I do autism research and study sulfur

biochemistry issues and came as sort of a guest on the list.

The sorts of behaviors you are mentioning here are very reminiscent of

behaviors that seem to get better when children with autism try epsom salts

therapy. Wondering about this after reading your story, I went into the

literature to see if a connection with the sulfation side of the chemistry

might make sense of this development in light of things known about

phenobarbital.

I've put an article below looking at the detoxification of acetaminophen

with and without phenobarbital. Taking phenobarbital apparently slowed

this detox process down, so less sulfate was used than normal. For that

reason, someone taking phenobarbital previiously might for some time not

have needed to have as much sulfate around for performing this function,

and the body might have adjusted all sorts of things to this alteration of

needing less sulfate: adjusting thngs like sulfate reabsorption or

gastrointestinal absorption of sulfate. But, changing the dose or

eliminating the phenobarbital might suddenly make that previous adjustment

of body sulfate levels inadequate because now that side of the chemistry is

not downregulated any more. This may involve changes in the number of

sulfate transporters. This " supply side " issue may adjust in a few days as

the body gets used to a new order of business and decides it needs to keep

more sulfate around.

Perhaps in line with that, there is a study below that found that in an

animal treated with phenobarbital in utero, that after birth its

sulfotransferase activity was dialed up five fold higher than an animal not

so treated, although there weren't too many details on this. I think that

does suggest the possibility that there may be higher demands for sulfate

now that you are weaning off phenobarbital. I doubt it would be permanent,

but there may be ways to make this transition easier.

Children with autism seem to have reduced sulfation going on, and this is

thought to happen because of becoming low in sulfate. That could happen

for many reasons, but many parents will tell you that when their child was

weepy or overly sensitive to sensory issues, epsom salts made a very great

difference in their child's coping abilities and that would happen because

the epsom salts would provide the missing amount of sulfate for places in

the body that could get the sulfate from circulation.

Years, ago, not really expecting it, I also found that similar behaviors

(sensory defensive issues) cleared up in my father when we applied a

solution of mag. sulfate (epsom salts) to his skin. The change was very

quick and very complete, and made him so much happier that it was not at

all hard to get his doctor to order this for him in the nursing home.

The nice thing about using a solution on the skin vs, a bath (more

traditionally used in autism circles) is that you can try a very small

amount of the solution that you make by dissolving epsom salts in water and

you can deliberately cover only a small surface area, and that way you can

see if there is any chance of a negative reaction. If everything is

positive, then, you can go for a bigger amount of skin. This solution does

seem to absorb well through the skin and I always used one part epsom salts

to four parts water when I did this with my father. You can buy the epsom

salts in the " foot care " section at the grocery store or pharmacy. It is

an old remedy for sore muscles or bruising or tired feet.

I mention this with the caveat that I don't have any experience or

knowledge of this treatment being used with someone on the ketogenic diet

because of seizures, but maybe some listmates here do have that sort of

experience. Anyway, if this actually did help in your child's present

distress, then seeing an improvement with extra sulfate might take away

some of the mystery that exists about the reason for this symptom appearing

with phenobarbital weaning.

I hope this helps, or at least gives you something to think about and talk

over with your doctor.

Drug Metab Dispos. 1993 Nov-Dec;21(6):1129-33. Related Articles, Links

Acute phenobarbital administration alters the disposition of

acetaminophen metabolites in the rat.

Brouwer KL.

Division of Pharmaceutics, School of Pharmacy, University of North

Carolina at Chapel Hill 27599-7360.

The effects of acute phenobarbital (PB) administration on the

disposition of acetaminophen (APAP), acetaminophen glucuronide (AG), and

acetaminophen sulfate (AS) were examined in serum, bile, and urine of rats

after a 100 mg/kg iv bolus dose of APAP. PB was administered intravenously

as either an acute low (12 mg/kg) or high (60 mg/kg) dose to achieve PB

serum concentrations equivalent to, or 5-fold higher than, PB

concentrations in previous studies where impaired biliary excretion of AG

and AS was noted after PB pretreatment for 5 days. Acute high-dose PB

administration decreased the formation clearance of AG by 36% (from 3.14

+/- 0.64 to 2.00 +/- 0.70 ml/min/kg), resulting in a significant decrease

in the percentage of the dose recovered in urine as AG. Decreased urinary

recovery of AS after acute high-dose PB administration was due to an

approximate 50% reduction in the renal clearance of AS (from 10.5 +/- 2.1

to 5.44 +/- 2.95 ml/min/kg). Although acute PB administration did not

impair the biliary excretion of APAP or AS to a statistically significant

extent, there was a trend toward decreased biliary excretion of AG. Large

interanimal variability in AG biliary excretion was noted in rats receiving

acute PB. These data indicate that serum PB concentrations are not related

directly to impaired biliary excretion of AG or AS, and suggest that some

other factor is responsible for the inhibition of AG and AS excretion at

canalicular transport sites after PB pretreatment.

PMID: 7905395 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Biochim Biophys Acta. 1982 Nov 12;713(2):358-64. Related Articles, Links

Development and regulation of bile salt sulfotransferase in rat liver.

Chen LJ, Kane B 3rd, Bujanover Y, Thaler MM.

Hepatic bile salt sulfotransferase activity was extremely limited in

fetus, gradually increasing after birth. At puberty, enzyme activity

declined in males but not in females, suggesting the influence of gonadal

hormones associated with sexual maturation. Extremely high enzyme activity

was found in pregnant rats at term. The neonatal bile salt sulfotransferase

activity could be stimulated by bile acid feeding during pregnancy or

maternal bile duct ligation. In contrast, a decrease in enzyme activity was

detected in the treated pregnant females. Phenobarbital treatment during

pregnancy also produced a 5-fold increase in neonatal enzyme activity.

These results suggested that bile salt sulfation was regulated by chemical

factors before maturity, and by gonadal hormones thereafter. Two fractions

with bile salt sulfotransferase activity were separated from female liver

by zone electrophoresis and DEAE-Sephadex A-50 chromatography, while a

single active fraction was detected in male liver which corresponded to one

of the active female fractions. The two active fractions in the female

exhibited the same molecular weight (130 000), and different isoelectric

points (6.8 and 5.3). The male fraction had a molecular weight of 130 000

and a pI of 5.3.

PMID: 6960929 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

At 08:29 AM 2/17/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>I would geuss its withdrawl, although we never had that kind of direct

>experience with phenobarb. We did get something similar when we weaned

>depakote. The other thing is, if she's been a " zombie " as you say, for a

>large part of her life, she might be truly experiencing the world for

>the first time and may find it overwhelming, its the coming out of a

>drug-induced haze. Some kids seem to develop sensory overload. I would

>take a deep breath, give her a hug, support her and hang tight

>, 's mom

>

>emmacatsmom wrote:

>

> > Our Emma who is 2 has been on the diet since last May. While she is

> > not Sz free, the diet has helped her tremendously in the length and

> > severity of her Sz as well as her development. She started the diet

> > on Phenobarbitol, neurontin, lamictal,and depakote. She was a

> > Zombie. We have been weaning her meds slowly. Now she is only on

> > Neurontin. She finnished Phenobarbitol about 2 weeks ago(she had

> > been on it since she was 17 days old!) We are very happy however,

> > Since stopping her pheno, Emma has been so emotional,sad. She has

> > this sad " woe is me " crying jags. She'll cry for anything, getting

> > dressed,if I sneeze, if someone laughs. This is very new to us

> > because so far the only time she would cry is if she was in pain.

> > blood tests ect. Emma hasnt really shown emotion untill now. No

> > smiles,laughs, crying or fustration. I'm just asking people who have

> > had expeirence with phenobarbitol if you think her emotional crying

> > is a result of her comming off it? Do you think she will work though

> > it? could it be part of withdrawl? Any experience will be helpful.

> > Thanks,

> > Dawn, Emma's mom

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dawn, and others,

I haven't posted for awhile, but I do autism research and study sulfur

biochemistry issues and came as sort of a guest on the list.

The sorts of behaviors you are mentioning here are very reminiscent of

behaviors that seem to get better when children with autism try epsom salts

therapy. Wondering about this after reading your story, I went into the

literature to see if a connection with the sulfation side of the chemistry

might make sense of this development in light of things known about

phenobarbital.

I've put an article below looking at the detoxification of acetaminophen

with and without phenobarbital. Taking phenobarbital apparently slowed

this detox process down, so less sulfate was used than normal. For that

reason, someone taking phenobarbital previiously might for some time not

have needed to have as much sulfate around for performing this function,

and the body might have adjusted all sorts of things to this alteration of

needing less sulfate: adjusting thngs like sulfate reabsorption or

gastrointestinal absorption of sulfate. But, changing the dose or

eliminating the phenobarbital might suddenly make that previous adjustment

of body sulfate levels inadequate because now that side of the chemistry is

not downregulated any more. This may involve changes in the number of

sulfate transporters. This " supply side " issue may adjust in a few days as

the body gets used to a new order of business and decides it needs to keep

more sulfate around.

Perhaps in line with that, there is a study below that found that in an

animal treated with phenobarbital in utero, that after birth its

sulfotransferase activity was dialed up five fold higher than an animal not

so treated, although there weren't too many details on this. I think that

does suggest the possibility that there may be higher demands for sulfate

now that you are weaning off phenobarbital. I doubt it would be permanent,

but there may be ways to make this transition easier.

Children with autism seem to have reduced sulfation going on, and this is

thought to happen because of becoming low in sulfate. That could happen

for many reasons, but many parents will tell you that when their child was

weepy or overly sensitive to sensory issues, epsom salts made a very great

difference in their child's coping abilities and that would happen because

the epsom salts would provide the missing amount of sulfate for places in

the body that could get the sulfate from circulation.

Years, ago, not really expecting it, I also found that similar behaviors

(sensory defensive issues) cleared up in my father when we applied a

solution of mag. sulfate (epsom salts) to his skin. The change was very

quick and very complete, and made him so much happier that it was not at

all hard to get his doctor to order this for him in the nursing home.

The nice thing about using a solution on the skin vs, a bath (more

traditionally used in autism circles) is that you can try a very small

amount of the solution that you make by dissolving epsom salts in water and

you can deliberately cover only a small surface area, and that way you can

see if there is any chance of a negative reaction. If everything is

positive, then, you can go for a bigger amount of skin. This solution does

seem to absorb well through the skin and I always used one part epsom salts

to four parts water when I did this with my father. You can buy the epsom

salts in the " foot care " section at the grocery store or pharmacy. It is

an old remedy for sore muscles or bruising or tired feet.

I mention this with the caveat that I don't have any experience or

knowledge of this treatment being used with someone on the ketogenic diet

because of seizures, but maybe some listmates here do have that sort of

experience. Anyway, if this actually did help in your child's present

distress, then seeing an improvement with extra sulfate might take away

some of the mystery that exists about the reason for this symptom appearing

with phenobarbital weaning.

I hope this helps, or at least gives you something to think about and talk

over with your doctor.

Drug Metab Dispos. 1993 Nov-Dec;21(6):1129-33. Related Articles, Links

Acute phenobarbital administration alters the disposition of

acetaminophen metabolites in the rat.

Brouwer KL.

Division of Pharmaceutics, School of Pharmacy, University of North

Carolina at Chapel Hill 27599-7360.

The effects of acute phenobarbital (PB) administration on the

disposition of acetaminophen (APAP), acetaminophen glucuronide (AG), and

acetaminophen sulfate (AS) were examined in serum, bile, and urine of rats

after a 100 mg/kg iv bolus dose of APAP. PB was administered intravenously

as either an acute low (12 mg/kg) or high (60 mg/kg) dose to achieve PB

serum concentrations equivalent to, or 5-fold higher than, PB

concentrations in previous studies where impaired biliary excretion of AG

and AS was noted after PB pretreatment for 5 days. Acute high-dose PB

administration decreased the formation clearance of AG by 36% (from 3.14

+/- 0.64 to 2.00 +/- 0.70 ml/min/kg), resulting in a significant decrease

in the percentage of the dose recovered in urine as AG. Decreased urinary

recovery of AS after acute high-dose PB administration was due to an

approximate 50% reduction in the renal clearance of AS (from 10.5 +/- 2.1

to 5.44 +/- 2.95 ml/min/kg). Although acute PB administration did not

impair the biliary excretion of APAP or AS to a statistically significant

extent, there was a trend toward decreased biliary excretion of AG. Large

interanimal variability in AG biliary excretion was noted in rats receiving

acute PB. These data indicate that serum PB concentrations are not related

directly to impaired biliary excretion of AG or AS, and suggest that some

other factor is responsible for the inhibition of AG and AS excretion at

canalicular transport sites after PB pretreatment.

PMID: 7905395 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Biochim Biophys Acta. 1982 Nov 12;713(2):358-64. Related Articles, Links

Development and regulation of bile salt sulfotransferase in rat liver.

Chen LJ, Kane B 3rd, Bujanover Y, Thaler MM.

Hepatic bile salt sulfotransferase activity was extremely limited in

fetus, gradually increasing after birth. At puberty, enzyme activity

declined in males but not in females, suggesting the influence of gonadal

hormones associated with sexual maturation. Extremely high enzyme activity

was found in pregnant rats at term. The neonatal bile salt sulfotransferase

activity could be stimulated by bile acid feeding during pregnancy or

maternal bile duct ligation. In contrast, a decrease in enzyme activity was

detected in the treated pregnant females. Phenobarbital treatment during

pregnancy also produced a 5-fold increase in neonatal enzyme activity.

These results suggested that bile salt sulfation was regulated by chemical

factors before maturity, and by gonadal hormones thereafter. Two fractions

with bile salt sulfotransferase activity were separated from female liver

by zone electrophoresis and DEAE-Sephadex A-50 chromatography, while a

single active fraction was detected in male liver which corresponded to one

of the active female fractions. The two active fractions in the female

exhibited the same molecular weight (130 000), and different isoelectric

points (6.8 and 5.3). The male fraction had a molecular weight of 130 000

and a pI of 5.3.

PMID: 6960929 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

At 08:29 AM 2/17/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>I would geuss its withdrawl, although we never had that kind of direct

>experience with phenobarb. We did get something similar when we weaned

>depakote. The other thing is, if she's been a " zombie " as you say, for a

>large part of her life, she might be truly experiencing the world for

>the first time and may find it overwhelming, its the coming out of a

>drug-induced haze. Some kids seem to develop sensory overload. I would

>take a deep breath, give her a hug, support her and hang tight

>, 's mom

>

>emmacatsmom wrote:

>

> > Our Emma who is 2 has been on the diet since last May. While she is

> > not Sz free, the diet has helped her tremendously in the length and

> > severity of her Sz as well as her development. She started the diet

> > on Phenobarbitol, neurontin, lamictal,and depakote. She was a

> > Zombie. We have been weaning her meds slowly. Now she is only on

> > Neurontin. She finnished Phenobarbitol about 2 weeks ago(she had

> > been on it since she was 17 days old!) We are very happy however,

> > Since stopping her pheno, Emma has been so emotional,sad. She has

> > this sad " woe is me " crying jags. She'll cry for anything, getting

> > dressed,if I sneeze, if someone laughs. This is very new to us

> > because so far the only time she would cry is if she was in pain.

> > blood tests ect. Emma hasnt really shown emotion untill now. No

> > smiles,laughs, crying or fustration. I'm just asking people who have

> > had expeirence with phenobarbitol if you think her emotional crying

> > is a result of her comming off it? Do you think she will work though

> > it? could it be part of withdrawl? Any experience will be helpful.

> > Thanks,

> > Dawn, Emma's mom

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dawn, and others,

I haven't posted for awhile, but I do autism research and study sulfur

biochemistry issues and came as sort of a guest on the list.

The sorts of behaviors you are mentioning here are very reminiscent of

behaviors that seem to get better when children with autism try epsom salts

therapy. Wondering about this after reading your story, I went into the

literature to see if a connection with the sulfation side of the chemistry

might make sense of this development in light of things known about

phenobarbital.

I've put an article below looking at the detoxification of acetaminophen

with and without phenobarbital. Taking phenobarbital apparently slowed

this detox process down, so less sulfate was used than normal. For that

reason, someone taking phenobarbital previiously might for some time not

have needed to have as much sulfate around for performing this function,

and the body might have adjusted all sorts of things to this alteration of

needing less sulfate: adjusting thngs like sulfate reabsorption or

gastrointestinal absorption of sulfate. But, changing the dose or

eliminating the phenobarbital might suddenly make that previous adjustment

of body sulfate levels inadequate because now that side of the chemistry is

not downregulated any more. This may involve changes in the number of

sulfate transporters. This " supply side " issue may adjust in a few days as

the body gets used to a new order of business and decides it needs to keep

more sulfate around.

Perhaps in line with that, there is a study below that found that in an

animal treated with phenobarbital in utero, that after birth its

sulfotransferase activity was dialed up five fold higher than an animal not

so treated, although there weren't too many details on this. I think that

does suggest the possibility that there may be higher demands for sulfate

now that you are weaning off phenobarbital. I doubt it would be permanent,

but there may be ways to make this transition easier.

Children with autism seem to have reduced sulfation going on, and this is

thought to happen because of becoming low in sulfate. That could happen

for many reasons, but many parents will tell you that when their child was

weepy or overly sensitive to sensory issues, epsom salts made a very great

difference in their child's coping abilities and that would happen because

the epsom salts would provide the missing amount of sulfate for places in

the body that could get the sulfate from circulation.

Years, ago, not really expecting it, I also found that similar behaviors

(sensory defensive issues) cleared up in my father when we applied a

solution of mag. sulfate (epsom salts) to his skin. The change was very

quick and very complete, and made him so much happier that it was not at

all hard to get his doctor to order this for him in the nursing home.

The nice thing about using a solution on the skin vs, a bath (more

traditionally used in autism circles) is that you can try a very small

amount of the solution that you make by dissolving epsom salts in water and

you can deliberately cover only a small surface area, and that way you can

see if there is any chance of a negative reaction. If everything is

positive, then, you can go for a bigger amount of skin. This solution does

seem to absorb well through the skin and I always used one part epsom salts

to four parts water when I did this with my father. You can buy the epsom

salts in the " foot care " section at the grocery store or pharmacy. It is

an old remedy for sore muscles or bruising or tired feet.

I mention this with the caveat that I don't have any experience or

knowledge of this treatment being used with someone on the ketogenic diet

because of seizures, but maybe some listmates here do have that sort of

experience. Anyway, if this actually did help in your child's present

distress, then seeing an improvement with extra sulfate might take away

some of the mystery that exists about the reason for this symptom appearing

with phenobarbital weaning.

I hope this helps, or at least gives you something to think about and talk

over with your doctor.

Drug Metab Dispos. 1993 Nov-Dec;21(6):1129-33. Related Articles, Links

Acute phenobarbital administration alters the disposition of

acetaminophen metabolites in the rat.

Brouwer KL.

Division of Pharmaceutics, School of Pharmacy, University of North

Carolina at Chapel Hill 27599-7360.

The effects of acute phenobarbital (PB) administration on the

disposition of acetaminophen (APAP), acetaminophen glucuronide (AG), and

acetaminophen sulfate (AS) were examined in serum, bile, and urine of rats

after a 100 mg/kg iv bolus dose of APAP. PB was administered intravenously

as either an acute low (12 mg/kg) or high (60 mg/kg) dose to achieve PB

serum concentrations equivalent to, or 5-fold higher than, PB

concentrations in previous studies where impaired biliary excretion of AG

and AS was noted after PB pretreatment for 5 days. Acute high-dose PB

administration decreased the formation clearance of AG by 36% (from 3.14

+/- 0.64 to 2.00 +/- 0.70 ml/min/kg), resulting in a significant decrease

in the percentage of the dose recovered in urine as AG. Decreased urinary

recovery of AS after acute high-dose PB administration was due to an

approximate 50% reduction in the renal clearance of AS (from 10.5 +/- 2.1

to 5.44 +/- 2.95 ml/min/kg). Although acute PB administration did not

impair the biliary excretion of APAP or AS to a statistically significant

extent, there was a trend toward decreased biliary excretion of AG. Large

interanimal variability in AG biliary excretion was noted in rats receiving

acute PB. These data indicate that serum PB concentrations are not related

directly to impaired biliary excretion of AG or AS, and suggest that some

other factor is responsible for the inhibition of AG and AS excretion at

canalicular transport sites after PB pretreatment.

PMID: 7905395 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Biochim Biophys Acta. 1982 Nov 12;713(2):358-64. Related Articles, Links

Development and regulation of bile salt sulfotransferase in rat liver.

Chen LJ, Kane B 3rd, Bujanover Y, Thaler MM.

Hepatic bile salt sulfotransferase activity was extremely limited in

fetus, gradually increasing after birth. At puberty, enzyme activity

declined in males but not in females, suggesting the influence of gonadal

hormones associated with sexual maturation. Extremely high enzyme activity

was found in pregnant rats at term. The neonatal bile salt sulfotransferase

activity could be stimulated by bile acid feeding during pregnancy or

maternal bile duct ligation. In contrast, a decrease in enzyme activity was

detected in the treated pregnant females. Phenobarbital treatment during

pregnancy also produced a 5-fold increase in neonatal enzyme activity.

These results suggested that bile salt sulfation was regulated by chemical

factors before maturity, and by gonadal hormones thereafter. Two fractions

with bile salt sulfotransferase activity were separated from female liver

by zone electrophoresis and DEAE-Sephadex A-50 chromatography, while a

single active fraction was detected in male liver which corresponded to one

of the active female fractions. The two active fractions in the female

exhibited the same molecular weight (130 000), and different isoelectric

points (6.8 and 5.3). The male fraction had a molecular weight of 130 000

and a pI of 5.3.

PMID: 6960929 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

At 08:29 AM 2/17/2004 -0400, you wrote:

>I would geuss its withdrawl, although we never had that kind of direct

>experience with phenobarb. We did get something similar when we weaned

>depakote. The other thing is, if she's been a " zombie " as you say, for a

>large part of her life, she might be truly experiencing the world for

>the first time and may find it overwhelming, its the coming out of a

>drug-induced haze. Some kids seem to develop sensory overload. I would

>take a deep breath, give her a hug, support her and hang tight

>, 's mom

>

>emmacatsmom wrote:

>

> > Our Emma who is 2 has been on the diet since last May. While she is

> > not Sz free, the diet has helped her tremendously in the length and

> > severity of her Sz as well as her development. She started the diet

> > on Phenobarbitol, neurontin, lamictal,and depakote. She was a

> > Zombie. We have been weaning her meds slowly. Now she is only on

> > Neurontin. She finnished Phenobarbitol about 2 weeks ago(she had

> > been on it since she was 17 days old!) We are very happy however,

> > Since stopping her pheno, Emma has been so emotional,sad. She has

> > this sad " woe is me " crying jags. She'll cry for anything, getting

> > dressed,if I sneeze, if someone laughs. This is very new to us

> > because so far the only time she would cry is if she was in pain.

> > blood tests ect. Emma hasnt really shown emotion untill now. No

> > smiles,laughs, crying or fustration. I'm just asking people who have

> > had expeirence with phenobarbitol if you think her emotional crying

> > is a result of her comming off it? Do you think she will work though

> > it? could it be part of withdrawl? Any experience will be helpful.

> > Thanks,

> > Dawn, Emma's mom

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

So this would explain why salt baths help my son during medication weans? I

havent done it recently and really need to start up again, but he seemed to feel

so much better after a salt bath (I just used coarse salt in his bath water) and

at one point was actually asking for salt baths. This clears up the 'why' for

me. Thanks

Jenn

<<The sorts of behaviors you are mentioning here are very reminiscent of

behaviors that seem to get better when children with autism try epsom salts

therapy. Wondering about this after reading your story, I went into the

literature to see if a connection with the sulfation side of the chemistry

might make sense of this development in light of things known about

phenobarbital.>>

[Guest guest]

So this would explain why salt baths help my son during medication weans? I

havent done it recently and really need to start up again, but he seemed to feel

so much better after a salt bath (I just used coarse salt in his bath water) and

at one point was actually asking for salt baths. This clears up the 'why' for

me. Thanks

Jenn

<<The sorts of behaviors you are mentioning here are very reminiscent of

behaviors that seem to get better when children with autism try epsom salts

therapy. Wondering about this after reading your story, I went into the

literature to see if a connection with the sulfation side of the chemistry

might make sense of this development in light of things known about

phenobarbital.>>

[Guest guest]

Hi.I am kinda jumping in... How and why did you start salt baths for

your son's med weans? Just wondering. Logan was put on Phenobarb for

a temporary med to settle things down. It is now 1 month. I am

wondering how temporary. Today the Doc wanted us to Bolus 90 mg. He

has has a few bad days again. I think it (phenob) is making things

worse. So, I am thinking about trying the salt bath to comfort him

tomorrow. What do you think?

Laurie mom to Logan(2)

In ketogenic , " Jenn " <heppner1@m...> wrote:

> So this would explain why salt baths help my son during medication

weans? I havent done it recently and really need to start up again,

but he seemed to feel so much better after a salt bath (I just used

coarse salt in his bath water) and at one point was actually asking

for salt baths. This clears up the 'why' for me. Thanks

>

> Jenn

>

> <<The sorts of behaviors you are mentioning here are very

reminiscent of

> behaviors that seem to get better when children with autism try

epsom salts

> therapy. Wondering about this after reading your story, I went

into the

> literature to see if a connection with the sulfation side of the

chemistry

> might make sense of this development in light of things known about

> phenobarbital.>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi.I am kinda jumping in... How and why did you start salt baths for

your son's med weans? Just wondering. Logan was put on Phenobarb for

a temporary med to settle things down. It is now 1 month. I am

wondering how temporary. Today the Doc wanted us to Bolus 90 mg. He

has has a few bad days again. I think it (phenob) is making things

worse. So, I am thinking about trying the salt bath to comfort him

tomorrow. What do you think?

Laurie mom to Logan(2)

In ketogenic , " Jenn " <heppner1@m...> wrote:

> So this would explain why salt baths help my son during medication

weans? I havent done it recently and really need to start up again,

but he seemed to feel so much better after a salt bath (I just used

coarse salt in his bath water) and at one point was actually asking

for salt baths. This clears up the 'why' for me. Thanks

>

> Jenn

>

> <<The sorts of behaviors you are mentioning here are very

reminiscent of

> behaviors that seem to get better when children with autism try

epsom salts

> therapy. Wondering about this after reading your story, I went

into the

> literature to see if a connection with the sulfation side of the

chemistry

> might make sense of this development in light of things known about

> phenobarbital.>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi.I am kinda jumping in... How and why did you start salt baths for

your son's med weans? Just wondering. Logan was put on Phenobarb for

a temporary med to settle things down. It is now 1 month. I am

wondering how temporary. Today the Doc wanted us to Bolus 90 mg. He

has has a few bad days again. I think it (phenob) is making things

worse. So, I am thinking about trying the salt bath to comfort him

tomorrow. What do you think?

Laurie mom to Logan(2)

In ketogenic , " Jenn " <heppner1@m...> wrote:

> So this would explain why salt baths help my son during medication

weans? I havent done it recently and really need to start up again,

but he seemed to feel so much better after a salt bath (I just used

coarse salt in his bath water) and at one point was actually asking

for salt baths. This clears up the 'why' for me. Thanks

>

> Jenn

>

> <<The sorts of behaviors you are mentioning here are very

reminiscent of

> behaviors that seem to get better when children with autism try

epsom salts

> therapy. Wondering about this after reading your story, I went

into the

> literature to see if a connection with the sulfation side of the

chemistry

> might make sense of this development in light of things known about

> phenobarbital.>>

>

>

[Guest guest]

--

Thanks to and all the others that have responded to my

phenobarbitol questions! I know that there is a lot of wisdom on

this list and It really does help! The ebsome salt answere is very

interesting. I remember reading something about it on the list

before. Its worth a try! Emma likes the bath. I was wondering about

the treatment, how does that work? 1 part salt to 4 parts water. Do

you just soak a facecloth and apply to the skin for a couple of

minutes?

thank you all for the info!

Dawn, Emma's mom

In ketogenic , Owens <lwo@i...> wrote:

> Dawn, and others,

>

> I haven't posted for awhile, but I do autism research and study

sulfur

> biochemistry issues and came as sort of a guest on the list.

>

> The sorts of behaviors you are mentioning here are very reminiscent

of

> behaviors that seem to get better when children with autism try

epsom salts

> therapy. Wondering about this after reading your story, I went

into the

> literature to see if a connection with the sulfation side of the

chemistry

> might make sense of this development in light of things known about

> phenobarbital.

>

> I've put an article below looking at the detoxification of

acetaminophen

> with and without phenobarbital. Taking phenobarbital apparently

slowed

> this detox process down, so less sulfate was used than normal. For

that

> reason, someone taking phenobarbital previiously might for some

time not

> have needed to have as much sulfate around for performing this

function,

> and the body might have adjusted all sorts of things to this

alteration of

> needing less sulfate: adjusting thngs like sulfate reabsorption or

> gastrointestinal absorption of sulfate. But, changing the dose or

> eliminating the phenobarbital might suddenly make that previous

adjustment

> of body sulfate levels inadequate because now that side of the

chemistry is

> not downregulated any more. This may involve changes in the number

of

> sulfate transporters. This " supply side " issue may adjust in a few

days as

> the body gets used to a new order of business and decides it needs

to keep

> more sulfate around.

>

> Perhaps in line with that, there is a study below that found that

in an

> animal treated with phenobarbital in utero, that after birth its

> sulfotransferase activity was dialed up five fold higher than an

animal not

> so treated, although there weren't too many details on this. I

think that

> does suggest the possibility that there may be higher demands for

sulfate

> now that you are weaning off phenobarbital. I doubt it would be

permanent,

> but there may be ways to make this transition easier.

>

> Children with autism seem to have reduced sulfation going on, and

this is

> thought to happen because of becoming low in sulfate. That could

happen

> for many reasons, but many parents will tell you that when their

child was

> weepy or overly sensitive to sensory issues, epsom salts made a

very great

> difference in their child's coping abilities and that would happen

because

> the epsom salts would provide the missing amount of sulfate for

places in

> the body that could get the sulfate from circulation.

>

> Years, ago, not really expecting it, I also found that similar

behaviors

> (sensory defensive issues) cleared up in my father when we applied

a

> solution of mag. sulfate (epsom salts) to his skin. The change was

very

> quick and very complete, and made him so much happier that it was

not at

> all hard to get his doctor to order this for him in the nursing

home.

>

> The nice thing about using a solution on the skin vs, a bath (more

> traditionally used in autism circles) is that you can try a very

small

> amount of the solution that you make by dissolving epsom salts in

water and

> you can deliberately cover only a small surface area, and that way

you can

> see if there is any chance of a negative reaction. If everything

is

> positive, then, you can go for a bigger amount of skin. This

solution does

> seem to absorb well through the skin and I always used one part

epsom salts

> to four parts water when I did this with my father. You can buy

the epsom

> salts in the " foot care " section at the grocery store or pharmacy.

It is

> an old remedy for sore muscles or bruising or tired feet.

>

> I mention this with the caveat that I don't have any experience or

> knowledge of this treatment being used with someone on the

ketogenic diet

> because of seizures, but maybe some listmates here do have that

sort of

> experience. Anyway, if this actually did help in your child's

present

> distress, then seeing an improvement with extra sulfate might take

away

> some of the mystery that exists about the reason for this symptom

appearing

> with phenobarbital weaning.

>

> I hope this helps, or at least gives you something to think about

and talk

> over with your doctor.

>

>

>

> Drug Metab Dispos. 1993 Nov-Dec;21(6):1129-33. Related Articles,

Links

>

> Acute phenobarbital administration alters the disposition of

> acetaminophen metabolites in the rat.

>

> Brouwer KL.

>

> Division of Pharmaceutics, School of Pharmacy, University of

North

> Carolina at Chapel Hill 27599-7360.

>

> The effects of acute phenobarbital (PB) administration on the

> disposition of acetaminophen (APAP), acetaminophen glucuronide

(AG), and

> acetaminophen sulfate (AS) were examined in serum, bile, and urine

of rats

> after a 100 mg/kg iv bolus dose of APAP. PB was administered

intravenously

> as either an acute low (12 mg/kg) or high (60 mg/kg) dose to

achieve PB

> serum concentrations equivalent to, or 5-fold higher than, PB

> concentrations in previous studies where impaired biliary excretion

of AG

> and AS was noted after PB pretreatment for 5 days. Acute high-dose

PB

> administration decreased the formation clearance of AG by 36% (from

3.14

> +/- 0.64 to 2.00 +/- 0.70 ml/min/kg), resulting in a significant

decrease

> in the percentage of the dose recovered in urine as AG. Decreased

urinary

> recovery of AS after acute high-dose PB administration was due to

an

> approximate 50% reduction in the renal clearance of AS (from 10.5

+/- 2.1

> to 5.44 +/- 2.95 ml/min/kg). Although acute PB administration did

not

> impair the biliary excretion of APAP or AS to a statistically

significant

> extent, there was a trend toward decreased biliary excretion of AG.

Large

> interanimal variability in AG biliary excretion was noted in rats

receiving

> acute PB. These data indicate that serum PB concentrations are not

related

> directly to impaired biliary excretion of AG or AS, and suggest

that some

> other factor is responsible for the inhibition of AG and AS

excretion at

> canalicular transport sites after PB pretreatment.

>

> PMID: 7905395 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

> Biochim Biophys Acta. 1982 Nov 12;713(2):358-64. Related Articles,

Links

>

> Development and regulation of bile salt sulfotransferase in

rat liver.

>

> Chen LJ, Kane B 3rd, Bujanover Y, Thaler MM.

>

> Hepatic bile salt sulfotransferase activity was extremely

limited in

> fetus, gradually increasing after birth. At puberty, enzyme

activity

> declined in males but not in females, suggesting the influence of

gonadal

> hormones associated with sexual maturation. Extremely high enzyme

activity

> was found in pregnant rats at term. The neonatal bile salt

sulfotransferase

> activity could be stimulated by bile acid feeding during pregnancy

or

> maternal bile duct ligation. In contrast, a decrease in enzyme

activity was

> detected in the treated pregnant females. Phenobarbital treatment

during

> pregnancy also produced a 5-fold increase in neonatal enzyme

activity.

> These results suggested that bile salt sulfation was regulated by

chemical

> factors before maturity, and by gonadal hormones thereafter. Two

fractions

> with bile salt sulfotransferase activity were separated from female

liver

> by zone electrophoresis and DEAE-Sephadex A-50 chromatography,

while a

> single active fraction was detected in male liver which

corresponded to one

> of the active female fractions. The two active fractions in the

female

> exhibited the same molecular weight (130 000), and different

isoelectric

> points (6.8 and 5.3). The male fraction had a molecular weight of

130 000

> and a pI of 5.3.

>

> PMID: 6960929 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

>

>

> At 08:29 AM 2/17/2004 -0400, you wrote:

> >I would geuss its withdrawl, although we never had that kind of

direct

> >experience with phenobarb. We did get something similar when we

weaned

> >depakote. The other thing is, if she's been a " zombie " as you say,

for a

> >large part of her life, she might be truly experiencing the world

for

> >the first time and may find it overwhelming, its the coming out of

a

> >drug-induced haze. Some kids seem to develop sensory overload. I

would

> >take a deep breath, give her a hug, support her and hang tight

> >, 's mom

> >

> >emmacatsmom wrote:

> >

> > > Our Emma who is 2 has been on the diet since last May. While

she is

> > > not Sz free, the diet has helped her tremendously in the length

and

> > > severity of her Sz as well as her development. She started the

diet

> > > on Phenobarbitol, neurontin, lamictal,and depakote. She was a

> > > Zombie. We have been weaning her meds slowly. Now she is only

on

> > > Neurontin. She finnished Phenobarbitol about 2 weeks ago(she

had

> > > been on it since she was 17 days old!) We are very happy

however,

> > > Since stopping her pheno, Emma has been so emotional,sad. She

has

> > > this sad " woe is me " crying jags. She'll cry for anything,

getting

> > > dressed,if I sneeze, if someone laughs. This is very new to us

> > > because so far the only time she would cry is if she was in

pain.

> > > blood tests ect. Emma hasnt really shown emotion untill now.

No

> > > smiles,laughs, crying or fustration. I'm just asking people

who have

> > > had expeirence with phenobarbitol if you think her emotional

crying

> > > is a result of her comming off it? Do you think she will work

though

> > > it? could it be part of withdrawl? Any experience will be

helpful.

> > > Thanks,

> > > Dawn, Emma's mom

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

I did a bit of research and found that salt " draws out' toxins so I figured it

might help to get rid of the meds etc sooner. It also helped a bit with

constipation altho not sure if it was the salt or the extra soaking in water

that did it.

I used 1/4 cup of coarse salt (pickling salt) in Mike's (5yrs old at the time)

bath water (not a lot of water since when I started he was having seizures and I

was worried about him aspirating water when he went down from a siezure - now

that he is seizure free I just havent increased the water since most ends up on

the floor anyway twice a week (I never used soap during these salt baths as

warm water and salt opens pores and I didnt want to aggrevate his skin with the

soap) I never did the baths on consecutive days, and I only let him sit for 15

min (salt water baths really drain you, I soaked in Mike's bathwater to see how

it felt and it is really relaxing but it is also tiring) when the salt was in

the water got him to lay down and really soak, pour water on his stomach etc -

sometimes I would put him in a bath, wash him like normal and let him play, then

drain the tub and refill for the salt bath - a bit more work, but he really

liked it. Starting them up again tomorrow

Jenn

P.S. When Mike was put on phenobarb, we were told " This is just temporary until

the diet 'kicks in' UH HUH!! He was on this med for TWO YEARS!! So much for

" temporary " !!! If I had known at the start of the diet what I know now, I

would've done things SO much diferently, one being NO meds! The more meds we

wean the better the diet works, I am so sure that the diet would've worked right

from day one if it was not for the three meds Mike was on at the time Oh

well, hindsight is 20/20 isnt it? ugh!

Re: Phenobarbital fallout?

Hi.I am kinda jumping in... How and why did you start salt baths for

your son's med weans? Just wondering. Logan was put on Phenobarb for

a temporary med to settle things down. It is now 1 month. I am

wondering how temporary. Today the Doc wanted us to Bolus 90 mg. He

has has a few bad days again. I think it (phenob) is making things

worse. So, I am thinking about trying the salt bath to comfort him

tomorrow. What do you think?

Laurie mom to Logan(2)

[Guest guest]

I did a bit of research and found that salt " draws out' toxins so I figured it

might help to get rid of the meds etc sooner. It also helped a bit with

constipation altho not sure if it was the salt or the extra soaking in water

that did it.

I used 1/4 cup of coarse salt (pickling salt) in Mike's (5yrs old at the time)

bath water (not a lot of water since when I started he was having seizures and I

was worried about him aspirating water when he went down from a siezure - now

that he is seizure free I just havent increased the water since most ends up on

the floor anyway twice a week (I never used soap during these salt baths as

warm water and salt opens pores and I didnt want to aggrevate his skin with the

soap) I never did the baths on consecutive days, and I only let him sit for 15

min (salt water baths really drain you, I soaked in Mike's bathwater to see how

it felt and it is really relaxing but it is also tiring) when the salt was in

the water got him to lay down and really soak, pour water on his stomach etc -

sometimes I would put him in a bath, wash him like normal and let him play, then

drain the tub and refill for the salt bath - a bit more work, but he really

liked it. Starting them up again tomorrow

Jenn

P.S. When Mike was put on phenobarb, we were told " This is just temporary until

the diet 'kicks in' UH HUH!! He was on this med for TWO YEARS!! So much for

" temporary " !!! If I had known at the start of the diet what I know now, I

would've done things SO much diferently, one being NO meds! The more meds we

wean the better the diet works, I am so sure that the diet would've worked right

from day one if it was not for the three meds Mike was on at the time Oh

well, hindsight is 20/20 isnt it? ugh!

Re: Phenobarbital fallout?

Hi.I am kinda jumping in... How and why did you start salt baths for

your son's med weans? Just wondering. Logan was put on Phenobarb for

a temporary med to settle things down. It is now 1 month. I am

wondering how temporary. Today the Doc wanted us to Bolus 90 mg. He

has has a few bad days again. I think it (phenob) is making things

worse. So, I am thinking about trying the salt bath to comfort him

tomorrow. What do you think?

Laurie mom to Logan(2)

[Guest guest]

Epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) baths really help with detoxing. Some of the

autism kids on the Specific Carb diet have a lot of yeast and bacterial die-off

when they first start the diet..... and the baths help with getting all those

toxins out. Makes sense it would help with detoxing meds, too.

Patti, mom to Katera

----- Original Message -----

So this would explain why salt baths help my son during medication weans? I

havent done it recently and really need to start up again, but he seemed to feel

so much better after a salt bath (I just used coarse salt in his bath water) and

at one point was actually asking for salt baths. This clears up the 'why' for

me. Thanks

Jenn

[Guest guest]

Epsom salts (magnesium sulphate) baths really help with detoxing. Some of the

autism kids on the Specific Carb diet have a lot of yeast and bacterial die-off

when they first start the diet..... and the baths help with getting all those

toxins out. Makes sense it would help with detoxing meds, too.

Patti, mom to Katera

----- Original Message -----

So this would explain why salt baths help my son during medication weans? I

havent done it recently and really need to start up again, but he seemed to feel

so much better after a salt bath (I just used coarse salt in his bath water) and

at one point was actually asking for salt baths. This clears up the 'why' for

me. Thanks

Jenn

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

I just applied the solution with a sponge and let it dry on, and then we

dressed him. We did his whole body neck down daily after we saw what a

benefit it was to him, and we had to do this every day to keep his violence

and sensory issues under control. It really was amazing how it worked and

we wouldn't have realized how much benefit it was except that his aides

stopped it accidentally, and he plummetted so, and it was his amazing

recovery when we started it back that convinced us it was the epsom salts

that had made the difference.

Just to be sure there isn't a negative reaction, though, I would just start

with a small area, and the size of a facecloth might not be bad. If you

see no negatives, then you can try a larger area, like we did.

At 04:57 AM 2/18/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>--

>Thanks to and all the others that have responded to my

>phenobarbitol questions! I know that there is a lot of wisdom on

>this list and It really does help! The ebsome salt answere is very

>interesting. I remember reading something about it on the list

>before. Its worth a try! Emma likes the bath. I was wondering about

>the treatment, how does that work? 1 part salt to 4 parts water. Do

>you just soak a facecloth and apply to the skin for a couple of

>minutes?

>thank you all for the info!

>Dawn, Emma's mom

>

> In ketogenic , Owens <lwo@i...> wrote:

> > Dawn, and others,

> >

> > I haven't posted for awhile, but I do autism research and study

>sulfur

> > biochemistry issues and came as sort of a guest on the list.

> >

> > The sorts of behaviors you are mentioning here are very reminiscent

>of

> > behaviors that seem to get better when children with autism try

>epsom salts

> > therapy. Wondering about this after reading your story, I went

>into the

> > literature to see if a connection with the sulfation side of the

>chemistry

> > might make sense of this development in light of things known about

> > phenobarbital.

> >

> > I've put an article below looking at the detoxification of

>acetaminophen

> > with and without phenobarbital. Taking phenobarbital apparently

>slowed

> > this detox process down, so less sulfate was used than normal. For

>that

> > reason, someone taking phenobarbital previiously might for some

>time not

> > have needed to have as much sulfate around for performing this

>function,

> > and the body might have adjusted all sorts of things to this

>alteration of

> > needing less sulfate: adjusting thngs like sulfate reabsorption or

> > gastrointestinal absorption of sulfate. But, changing the dose or

> > eliminating the phenobarbital might suddenly make that previous

>adjustment

> > of body sulfate levels inadequate because now that side of the

>chemistry is

> > not downregulated any more. This may involve changes in the number

>of

> > sulfate transporters. This " supply side " issue may adjust in a few

>days as

> > the body gets used to a new order of business and decides it needs

>to keep

> > more sulfate around.

> >

> > Perhaps in line with that, there is a study below that found that

>in an

> > animal treated with phenobarbital in utero, that after birth its

> > sulfotransferase activity was dialed up five fold higher than an

>animal not

> > so treated, although there weren't too many details on this. I

>think that

> > does suggest the possibility that there may be higher demands for

>sulfate

> > now that you are weaning off phenobarbital. I doubt it would be

>permanent,

> > but there may be ways to make this transition easier.

> >

> > Children with autism seem to have reduced sulfation going on, and

>this is

> > thought to happen because of becoming low in sulfate. That could

>happen

> > for many reasons, but many parents will tell you that when their

>child was

> > weepy or overly sensitive to sensory issues, epsom salts made a

>very great

> > difference in their child's coping abilities and that would happen

>because

> > the epsom salts would provide the missing amount of sulfate for

>places in

> > the body that could get the sulfate from circulation.

> >

> > Years, ago, not really expecting it, I also found that similar

>behaviors

> > (sensory defensive issues) cleared up in my father when we applied

>a

> > solution of mag. sulfate (epsom salts) to his skin. The change was

>very

> > quick and very complete, and made him so much happier that it was

>not at

> > all hard to get his doctor to order this for him in the nursing

>home.

> >

> > The nice thing about using a solution on the skin vs, a bath (more

> > traditionally used in autism circles) is that you can try a very

>small

> > amount of the solution that you make by dissolving epsom salts in

>water and

> > you can deliberately cover only a small surface area, and that way

>you can

> > see if there is any chance of a negative reaction. If everything

>is

> > positive, then, you can go for a bigger amount of skin. This

>solution does

> > seem to absorb well through the skin and I always used one part

>epsom salts

> > to four parts water when I did this with my father. You can buy

>the epsom

> > salts in the " foot care " section at the grocery store or pharmacy.

>It is

> > an old remedy for sore muscles or bruising or tired feet.

> >

> > I mention this with the caveat that I don't have any experience or

> > knowledge of this treatment being used with someone on the

>ketogenic diet

> > because of seizures, but maybe some listmates here do have that

>sort of

> > experience. Anyway, if this actually did help in your child's

>present

> > distress, then seeing an improvement with extra sulfate might take

>away

> > some of the mystery that exists about the reason for this symptom

>appearing

> > with phenobarbital weaning.

> >

> > I hope this helps, or at least gives you something to think about

>and talk

> > over with your doctor.

> >

> >

> >

> > Drug Metab Dispos. 1993 Nov-Dec;21(6):1129-33. Related Articles,

>Links

> >

> > Acute phenobarbital administration alters the disposition of

> > acetaminophen metabolites in the rat.

> >

> > Brouwer KL.

> >

> > Division of Pharmaceutics, School of Pharmacy, University of

>North

> > Carolina at Chapel Hill 27599-7360.

> >

> > The effects of acute phenobarbital (PB) administration on the

> > disposition of acetaminophen (APAP), acetaminophen glucuronide

>(AG), and

> > acetaminophen sulfate (AS) were examined in serum, bile, and urine

>of rats

> > after a 100 mg/kg iv bolus dose of APAP. PB was administered

>intravenously

> > as either an acute low (12 mg/kg) or high (60 mg/kg) dose to

>achieve PB

> > serum concentrations equivalent to, or 5-fold higher than, PB

> > concentrations in previous studies where impaired biliary excretion

>of AG

> > and AS was noted after PB pretreatment for 5 days. Acute high-dose

>PB

> > administration decreased the formation clearance of AG by 36% (from

>3.14

> > +/- 0.64 to 2.00 +/- 0.70 ml/min/kg), resulting in a significant

>decrease

> > in the percentage of the dose recovered in urine as AG. Decreased

>urinary

> > recovery of AS after acute high-dose PB administration was due to

>an

> > approximate 50% reduction in the renal clearance of AS (from 10.5

>+/- 2.1

> > to 5.44 +/- 2.95 ml/min/kg). Although acute PB administration did

>not

> > impair the biliary excretion of APAP or AS to a statistically

>significant

> > extent, there was a trend toward decreased biliary excretion of AG.

>Large

> > interanimal variability in AG biliary excretion was noted in rats

>receiving

> > acute PB. These data indicate that serum PB concentrations are not

>related

> > directly to impaired biliary excretion of AG or AS, and suggest

>that some

> > other factor is responsible for the inhibition of AG and AS

>excretion at

> > canalicular transport sites after PB pretreatment.

> >

> > PMID: 7905395 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> >

> > Biochim Biophys Acta. 1982 Nov 12;713(2):358-64. Related Articles,

>Links

> >

> > Development and regulation of bile salt sulfotransferase in

>rat liver.

> >

> > Chen LJ, Kane B 3rd, Bujanover Y, Thaler MM.

> >

> > Hepatic bile salt sulfotransferase activity was extremely

>limited in

> > fetus, gradually increasing after birth. At puberty, enzyme

>activity

> > declined in males but not in females, suggesting the influence of

>gonadal

> > hormones associated with sexual maturation. Extremely high enzyme

>activity

> > was found in pregnant rats at term. The neonatal bile salt

>sulfotransferase

> > activity could be stimulated by bile acid feeding during pregnancy

>or

> > maternal bile duct ligation. In contrast, a decrease in enzyme

>activity was

> > detected in the treated pregnant females. Phenobarbital treatment

>during

> > pregnancy also produced a 5-fold increase in neonatal enzyme

>activity.

> > These results suggested that bile salt sulfation was regulated by

>chemical

> > factors before maturity, and by gonadal hormones thereafter. Two

>fractions

> > with bile salt sulfotransferase activity were separated from female

>liver

> > by zone electrophoresis and DEAE-Sephadex A-50 chromatography,

>while a

> > single active fraction was detected in male liver which

>corresponded to one

> > of the active female fractions. The two active fractions in the

>female

> > exhibited the same molecular weight (130 000), and different

>isoelectric

> > points (6.8 and 5.3). The male fraction had a molecular weight of

>130 000

> > and a pI of 5.3.

> >

> > PMID: 6960929 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> >

> >

> > At 08:29 AM 2/17/2004 -0400, you wrote:

> > >I would geuss its withdrawl, although we never had that kind of

>direct

> > >experience with phenobarb. We did get something similar when we

>weaned

> > >depakote. The other thing is, if she's been a " zombie " as you say,

>for a

> > >large part of her life, she might be truly experiencing the world

>for

> > >the first time and may find it overwhelming, its the coming out of

>a

> > >drug-induced haze. Some kids seem to develop sensory overload. I

>would

> > >take a deep breath, give her a hug, support her and hang tight

> > >, 's mom

> > >

> > >emmacatsmom wrote:

> > >

> > > > Our Emma who is 2 has been on the diet since last May. While

>she is

> > > > not Sz free, the diet has helped her tremendously in the length

>and

> > > > severity of her Sz as well as her development. She started the

>diet

> > > > on Phenobarbitol, neurontin, lamictal,and depakote. She was a

> > > > Zombie. We have been weaning her meds slowly. Now she is only

>on

> > > > Neurontin. She finnished Phenobarbitol about 2 weeks ago(she

>had

> > > > been on it since she was 17 days old!) We are very happy

>however,

> > > > Since stopping her pheno, Emma has been so emotional,sad. She

>has

> > > > this sad " woe is me " crying jags. She'll cry for anything,

>getting

> > > > dressed,if I sneeze, if someone laughs. This is very new to us

> > > > because so far the only time she would cry is if she was in

>pain.

> > > > blood tests ect. Emma hasnt really shown emotion untill now.

>No

> > > > smiles,laughs, crying or fustration. I'm just asking people

>who have

> > > > had expeirence with phenobarbitol if you think her emotional

>crying

> > > > is a result of her comming off it? Do you think she will work

>though

> > > > it? could it be part of withdrawl? Any experience will be

>helpful.

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > Dawn, Emma's mom

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

I just applied the solution with a sponge and let it dry on, and then we

dressed him. We did his whole body neck down daily after we saw what a

benefit it was to him, and we had to do this every day to keep his violence

and sensory issues under control. It really was amazing how it worked and

we wouldn't have realized how much benefit it was except that his aides

stopped it accidentally, and he plummetted so, and it was his amazing

recovery when we started it back that convinced us it was the epsom salts

that had made the difference.

Just to be sure there isn't a negative reaction, though, I would just start

with a small area, and the size of a facecloth might not be bad. If you

see no negatives, then you can try a larger area, like we did.

At 04:57 AM 2/18/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>--

>Thanks to and all the others that have responded to my

>phenobarbitol questions! I know that there is a lot of wisdom on

>this list and It really does help! The ebsome salt answere is very

>interesting. I remember reading something about it on the list

>before. Its worth a try! Emma likes the bath. I was wondering about

>the treatment, how does that work? 1 part salt to 4 parts water. Do

>you just soak a facecloth and apply to the skin for a couple of

>minutes?

>thank you all for the info!

>Dawn, Emma's mom

>

> In ketogenic , Owens <lwo@i...> wrote:

> > Dawn, and others,

> >

> > I haven't posted for awhile, but I do autism research and study

>sulfur

> > biochemistry issues and came as sort of a guest on the list.

> >

> > The sorts of behaviors you are mentioning here are very reminiscent

>of

> > behaviors that seem to get better when children with autism try

>epsom salts

> > therapy. Wondering about this after reading your story, I went

>into the

> > literature to see if a connection with the sulfation side of the

>chemistry

> > might make sense of this development in light of things known about

> > phenobarbital.

> >

> > I've put an article below looking at the detoxification of

>acetaminophen

> > with and without phenobarbital. Taking phenobarbital apparently

>slowed

> > this detox process down, so less sulfate was used than normal. For

>that

> > reason, someone taking phenobarbital previiously might for some

>time not

> > have needed to have as much sulfate around for performing this

>function,

> > and the body might have adjusted all sorts of things to this

>alteration of

> > needing less sulfate: adjusting thngs like sulfate reabsorption or

> > gastrointestinal absorption of sulfate. But, changing the dose or

> > eliminating the phenobarbital might suddenly make that previous

>adjustment

> > of body sulfate levels inadequate because now that side of the

>chemistry is

> > not downregulated any more. This may involve changes in the number

>of

> > sulfate transporters. This " supply side " issue may adjust in a few

>days as

> > the body gets used to a new order of business and decides it needs

>to keep

> > more sulfate around.

> >

> > Perhaps in line with that, there is a study below that found that

>in an

> > animal treated with phenobarbital in utero, that after birth its

> > sulfotransferase activity was dialed up five fold higher than an

>animal not

> > so treated, although there weren't too many details on this. I

>think that

> > does suggest the possibility that there may be higher demands for

>sulfate

> > now that you are weaning off phenobarbital. I doubt it would be

>permanent,

> > but there may be ways to make this transition easier.

> >

> > Children with autism seem to have reduced sulfation going on, and

>this is

> > thought to happen because of becoming low in sulfate. That could

>happen

> > for many reasons, but many parents will tell you that when their

>child was

> > weepy or overly sensitive to sensory issues, epsom salts made a

>very great

> > difference in their child's coping abilities and that would happen

>because

> > the epsom salts would provide the missing amount of sulfate for

>places in

> > the body that could get the sulfate from circulation.

> >

> > Years, ago, not really expecting it, I also found that similar

>behaviors

> > (sensory defensive issues) cleared up in my father when we applied

>a

> > solution of mag. sulfate (epsom salts) to his skin. The change was

>very

> > quick and very complete, and made him so much happier that it was

>not at

> > all hard to get his doctor to order this for him in the nursing

>home.

> >

> > The nice thing about using a solution on the skin vs, a bath (more

> > traditionally used in autism circles) is that you can try a very

>small

> > amount of the solution that you make by dissolving epsom salts in

>water and

> > you can deliberately cover only a small surface area, and that way

>you can

> > see if there is any chance of a negative reaction. If everything

>is

> > positive, then, you can go for a bigger amount of skin. This

>solution does

> > seem to absorb well through the skin and I always used one part

>epsom salts

> > to four parts water when I did this with my father. You can buy

>the epsom

> > salts in the " foot care " section at the grocery store or pharmacy.

>It is

> > an old remedy for sore muscles or bruising or tired feet.

> >

> > I mention this with the caveat that I don't have any experience or

> > knowledge of this treatment being used with someone on the

>ketogenic diet

> > because of seizures, but maybe some listmates here do have that

>sort of

> > experience. Anyway, if this actually did help in your child's

>present

> > distress, then seeing an improvement with extra sulfate might take

>away

> > some of the mystery that exists about the reason for this symptom

>appearing

> > with phenobarbital weaning.

> >

> > I hope this helps, or at least gives you something to think about

>and talk

> > over with your doctor.

> >

> >

> >

> > Drug Metab Dispos. 1993 Nov-Dec;21(6):1129-33. Related Articles,

>Links

> >

> > Acute phenobarbital administration alters the disposition of

> > acetaminophen metabolites in the rat.

> >

> > Brouwer KL.

> >

> > Division of Pharmaceutics, School of Pharmacy, University of

>North

> > Carolina at Chapel Hill 27599-7360.

> >

> > The effects of acute phenobarbital (PB) administration on the

> > disposition of acetaminophen (APAP), acetaminophen glucuronide

>(AG), and

> > acetaminophen sulfate (AS) were examined in serum, bile, and urine

>of rats

> > after a 100 mg/kg iv bolus dose of APAP. PB was administered

>intravenously

> > as either an acute low (12 mg/kg) or high (60 mg/kg) dose to

>achieve PB

> > serum concentrations equivalent to, or 5-fold higher than, PB

> > concentrations in previous studies where impaired biliary excretion

>of AG

> > and AS was noted after PB pretreatment for 5 days. Acute high-dose

>PB

> > administration decreased the formation clearance of AG by 36% (from

>3.14

> > +/- 0.64 to 2.00 +/- 0.70 ml/min/kg), resulting in a significant

>decrease

> > in the percentage of the dose recovered in urine as AG. Decreased

>urinary

> > recovery of AS after acute high-dose PB administration was due to

>an

> > approximate 50% reduction in the renal clearance of AS (from 10.5

>+/- 2.1

> > to 5.44 +/- 2.95 ml/min/kg). Although acute PB administration did

>not

> > impair the biliary excretion of APAP or AS to a statistically

>significant

> > extent, there was a trend toward decreased biliary excretion of AG.

>Large

> > interanimal variability in AG biliary excretion was noted in rats

>receiving

> > acute PB. These data indicate that serum PB concentrations are not

>related

> > directly to impaired biliary excretion of AG or AS, and suggest

>that some

> > other factor is responsible for the inhibition of AG and AS

>excretion at

> > canalicular transport sites after PB pretreatment.

> >

> > PMID: 7905395 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> >

> > Biochim Biophys Acta. 1982 Nov 12;713(2):358-64. Related Articles,

>Links

> >

> > Development and regulation of bile salt sulfotransferase in

>rat liver.

> >

> > Chen LJ, Kane B 3rd, Bujanover Y, Thaler MM.

> >

> > Hepatic bile salt sulfotransferase activity was extremely

>limited in

> > fetus, gradually increasing after birth. At puberty, enzyme

>activity

> > declined in males but not in females, suggesting the influence of

>gonadal

> > hormones associated with sexual maturation. Extremely high enzyme

>activity

> > was found in pregnant rats at term. The neonatal bile salt

>sulfotransferase

> > activity could be stimulated by bile acid feeding during pregnancy

>or

> > maternal bile duct ligation. In contrast, a decrease in enzyme

>activity was

> > detected in the treated pregnant females. Phenobarbital treatment

>during

> > pregnancy also produced a 5-fold increase in neonatal enzyme

>activity.

> > These results suggested that bile salt sulfation was regulated by

>chemical

> > factors before maturity, and by gonadal hormones thereafter. Two

>fractions

> > with bile salt sulfotransferase activity were separated from female

>liver

> > by zone electrophoresis and DEAE-Sephadex A-50 chromatography,

>while a

> > single active fraction was detected in male liver which

>corresponded to one

> > of the active female fractions. The two active fractions in the

>female

> > exhibited the same molecular weight (130 000), and different

>isoelectric

> > points (6.8 and 5.3). The male fraction had a molecular weight of

>130 000

> > and a pI of 5.3.

> >

> > PMID: 6960929 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> >

> >

> > At 08:29 AM 2/17/2004 -0400, you wrote:

> > >I would geuss its withdrawl, although we never had that kind of

>direct

> > >experience with phenobarb. We did get something similar when we

>weaned

> > >depakote. The other thing is, if she's been a " zombie " as you say,

>for a

> > >large part of her life, she might be truly experiencing the world

>for

> > >the first time and may find it overwhelming, its the coming out of

>a

> > >drug-induced haze. Some kids seem to develop sensory overload. I

>would

> > >take a deep breath, give her a hug, support her and hang tight

> > >, 's mom

> > >

> > >emmacatsmom wrote:

> > >

> > > > Our Emma who is 2 has been on the diet since last May. While

>she is

> > > > not Sz free, the diet has helped her tremendously in the length

>and

> > > > severity of her Sz as well as her development. She started the

>diet

> > > > on Phenobarbitol, neurontin, lamictal,and depakote. She was a

> > > > Zombie. We have been weaning her meds slowly. Now she is only

>on

> > > > Neurontin. She finnished Phenobarbitol about 2 weeks ago(she

>had

> > > > been on it since she was 17 days old!) We are very happy

>however,

> > > > Since stopping her pheno, Emma has been so emotional,sad. She

>has

> > > > this sad " woe is me " crying jags. She'll cry for anything,

>getting

> > > > dressed,if I sneeze, if someone laughs. This is very new to us

> > > > because so far the only time she would cry is if she was in

>pain.

> > > > blood tests ect. Emma hasnt really shown emotion untill now.

>No

> > > > smiles,laughs, crying or fustration. I'm just asking people

>who have

> > > > had expeirence with phenobarbitol if you think her emotional

>crying

> > > > is a result of her comming off it? Do you think she will work

>though

> > > > it? could it be part of withdrawl? Any experience will be

>helpful.

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > Dawn, Emma's mom

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

I just applied the solution with a sponge and let it dry on, and then we

dressed him. We did his whole body neck down daily after we saw what a

benefit it was to him, and we had to do this every day to keep his violence

and sensory issues under control. It really was amazing how it worked and

we wouldn't have realized how much benefit it was except that his aides

stopped it accidentally, and he plummetted so, and it was his amazing

recovery when we started it back that convinced us it was the epsom salts

that had made the difference.

Just to be sure there isn't a negative reaction, though, I would just start

with a small area, and the size of a facecloth might not be bad. If you

see no negatives, then you can try a larger area, like we did.

At 04:57 AM 2/18/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>--

>Thanks to and all the others that have responded to my

>phenobarbitol questions! I know that there is a lot of wisdom on

>this list and It really does help! The ebsome salt answere is very

>interesting. I remember reading something about it on the list

>before. Its worth a try! Emma likes the bath. I was wondering about

>the treatment, how does that work? 1 part salt to 4 parts water. Do

>you just soak a facecloth and apply to the skin for a couple of

>minutes?

>thank you all for the info!

>Dawn, Emma's mom

>

> In ketogenic , Owens <lwo@i...> wrote:

> > Dawn, and others,

> >

> > I haven't posted for awhile, but I do autism research and study

>sulfur

> > biochemistry issues and came as sort of a guest on the list.

> >

> > The sorts of behaviors you are mentioning here are very reminiscent

>of

> > behaviors that seem to get better when children with autism try

>epsom salts

> > therapy. Wondering about this after reading your story, I went

>into the

> > literature to see if a connection with the sulfation side of the

>chemistry

> > might make sense of this development in light of things known about

> > phenobarbital.

> >

> > I've put an article below looking at the detoxification of

>acetaminophen

> > with and without phenobarbital. Taking phenobarbital apparently

>slowed

> > this detox process down, so less sulfate was used than normal. For

>that

> > reason, someone taking phenobarbital previiously might for some

>time not

> > have needed to have as much sulfate around for performing this

>function,

> > and the body might have adjusted all sorts of things to this

>alteration of

> > needing less sulfate: adjusting thngs like sulfate reabsorption or

> > gastrointestinal absorption of sulfate. But, changing the dose or

> > eliminating the phenobarbital might suddenly make that previous

>adjustment

> > of body sulfate levels inadequate because now that side of the

>chemistry is

> > not downregulated any more. This may involve changes in the number

>of

> > sulfate transporters. This " supply side " issue may adjust in a few

>days as

> > the body gets used to a new order of business and decides it needs

>to keep

> > more sulfate around.

> >

> > Perhaps in line with that, there is a study below that found that

>in an

> > animal treated with phenobarbital in utero, that after birth its

> > sulfotransferase activity was dialed up five fold higher than an

>animal not

> > so treated, although there weren't too many details on this. I

>think that

> > does suggest the possibility that there may be higher demands for

>sulfate

> > now that you are weaning off phenobarbital. I doubt it would be

>permanent,

> > but there may be ways to make this transition easier.

> >

> > Children with autism seem to have reduced sulfation going on, and

>this is

> > thought to happen because of becoming low in sulfate. That could

>happen

> > for many reasons, but many parents will tell you that when their

>child was

> > weepy or overly sensitive to sensory issues, epsom salts made a

>very great

> > difference in their child's coping abilities and that would happen

>because

> > the epsom salts would provide the missing amount of sulfate for

>places in

> > the body that could get the sulfate from circulation.

> >

> > Years, ago, not really expecting it, I also found that similar

>behaviors

> > (sensory defensive issues) cleared up in my father when we applied

>a

> > solution of mag. sulfate (epsom salts) to his skin. The change was

>very

> > quick and very complete, and made him so much happier that it was

>not at

> > all hard to get his doctor to order this for him in the nursing

>home.

> >

> > The nice thing about using a solution on the skin vs, a bath (more

> > traditionally used in autism circles) is that you can try a very

>small

> > amount of the solution that you make by dissolving epsom salts in

>water and

> > you can deliberately cover only a small surface area, and that way

>you can

> > see if there is any chance of a negative reaction. If everything

>is

> > positive, then, you can go for a bigger amount of skin. This

>solution does

> > seem to absorb well through the skin and I always used one part

>epsom salts

> > to four parts water when I did this with my father. You can buy

>the epsom

> > salts in the " foot care " section at the grocery store or pharmacy.

>It is

> > an old remedy for sore muscles or bruising or tired feet.

> >

> > I mention this with the caveat that I don't have any experience or

> > knowledge of this treatment being used with someone on the

>ketogenic diet

> > because of seizures, but maybe some listmates here do have that

>sort of

> > experience. Anyway, if this actually did help in your child's

>present

> > distress, then seeing an improvement with extra sulfate might take

>away

> > some of the mystery that exists about the reason for this symptom

>appearing

> > with phenobarbital weaning.

> >

> > I hope this helps, or at least gives you something to think about

>and talk

> > over with your doctor.

> >

> >

> >

> > Drug Metab Dispos. 1993 Nov-Dec;21(6):1129-33. Related Articles,

>Links

> >

> > Acute phenobarbital administration alters the disposition of

> > acetaminophen metabolites in the rat.

> >

> > Brouwer KL.

> >

> > Division of Pharmaceutics, School of Pharmacy, University of

>North

> > Carolina at Chapel Hill 27599-7360.

> >

> > The effects of acute phenobarbital (PB) administration on the

> > disposition of acetaminophen (APAP), acetaminophen glucuronide

>(AG), and

> > acetaminophen sulfate (AS) were examined in serum, bile, and urine

>of rats

> > after a 100 mg/kg iv bolus dose of APAP. PB was administered

>intravenously

> > as either an acute low (12 mg/kg) or high (60 mg/kg) dose to

>achieve PB

> > serum concentrations equivalent to, or 5-fold higher than, PB

> > concentrations in previous studies where impaired biliary excretion

>of AG

> > and AS was noted after PB pretreatment for 5 days. Acute high-dose

>PB

> > administration decreased the formation clearance of AG by 36% (from

>3.14

> > +/- 0.64 to 2.00 +/- 0.70 ml/min/kg), resulting in a significant

>decrease

> > in the percentage of the dose recovered in urine as AG. Decreased

>urinary

> > recovery of AS after acute high-dose PB administration was due to

>an

> > approximate 50% reduction in the renal clearance of AS (from 10.5

>+/- 2.1

> > to 5.44 +/- 2.95 ml/min/kg). Although acute PB administration did

>not

> > impair the biliary excretion of APAP or AS to a statistically

>significant

> > extent, there was a trend toward decreased biliary excretion of AG.

>Large

> > interanimal variability in AG biliary excretion was noted in rats

>receiving

> > acute PB. These data indicate that serum PB concentrations are not

>related

> > directly to impaired biliary excretion of AG or AS, and suggest

>that some

> > other factor is responsible for the inhibition of AG and AS

>excretion at

> > canalicular transport sites after PB pretreatment.

> >

> > PMID: 7905395 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> >

> > Biochim Biophys Acta. 1982 Nov 12;713(2):358-64. Related Articles,

>Links

> >

> > Development and regulation of bile salt sulfotransferase in

>rat liver.

> >

> > Chen LJ, Kane B 3rd, Bujanover Y, Thaler MM.

> >

> > Hepatic bile salt sulfotransferase activity was extremely

>limited in

> > fetus, gradually increasing after birth. At puberty, enzyme

>activity

> > declined in males but not in females, suggesting the influence of

>gonadal

> > hormones associated with sexual maturation. Extremely high enzyme

>activity

> > was found in pregnant rats at term. The neonatal bile salt

>sulfotransferase

> > activity could be stimulated by bile acid feeding during pregnancy

>or

> > maternal bile duct ligation. In contrast, a decrease in enzyme

>activity was

> > detected in the treated pregnant females. Phenobarbital treatment

>during

> > pregnancy also produced a 5-fold increase in neonatal enzyme

>activity.

> > These results suggested that bile salt sulfation was regulated by

>chemical

> > factors before maturity, and by gonadal hormones thereafter. Two

>fractions

> > with bile salt sulfotransferase activity were separated from female

>liver

> > by zone electrophoresis and DEAE-Sephadex A-50 chromatography,

>while a

> > single active fraction was detected in male liver which

>corresponded to one

> > of the active female fractions. The two active fractions in the

>female

> > exhibited the same molecular weight (130 000), and different

>isoelectric

> > points (6.8 and 5.3). The male fraction had a molecular weight of

>130 000

> > and a pI of 5.3.

> >

> > PMID: 6960929 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

> >

> >

> > At 08:29 AM 2/17/2004 -0400, you wrote:

> > >I would geuss its withdrawl, although we never had that kind of

>direct

> > >experience with phenobarb. We did get something similar when we

>weaned

> > >depakote. The other thing is, if she's been a " zombie " as you say,

>for a

> > >large part of her life, she might be truly experiencing the world

>for

> > >the first time and may find it overwhelming, its the coming out of

>a

> > >drug-induced haze. Some kids seem to develop sensory overload. I

>would

> > >take a deep breath, give her a hug, support her and hang tight

> > >, 's mom

> > >

> > >emmacatsmom wrote:

> > >

> > > > Our Emma who is 2 has been on the diet since last May. While

>she is

> > > > not Sz free, the diet has helped her tremendously in the length

>and

> > > > severity of her Sz as well as her development. She started the

>diet

> > > > on Phenobarbitol, neurontin, lamictal,and depakote. She was a

> > > > Zombie. We have been weaning her meds slowly. Now she is only

>on

> > > > Neurontin. She finnished Phenobarbitol about 2 weeks ago(she

>had

> > > > been on it since she was 17 days old!) We are very happy

>however,

> > > > Since stopping her pheno, Emma has been so emotional,sad. She

>has

> > > > this sad " woe is me " crying jags. She'll cry for anything,

>getting

> > > > dressed,if I sneeze, if someone laughs. This is very new to us

> > > > because so far the only time she would cry is if she was in

>pain.

> > > > blood tests ect. Emma hasnt really shown emotion untill now.

>No

> > > > smiles,laughs, crying or fustration. I'm just asking people

>who have

> > > > had expeirence with phenobarbitol if you think her emotional

>crying

> > > > is a result of her comming off it? Do you think she will work

>though

> > > > it? could it be part of withdrawl? Any experience will be

>helpful.

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > Dawn, Emma's mom

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

I was just wondering if you tried the epsom salts bath and if it helped...

At 04:57 AM 2/18/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>--

>Thanks to and all the others that have responded to my

>phenobarbitol questions! I know that there is a lot of wisdom on

>this list and It really does help! The ebsome salt answere is very

>interesting. I remember reading something about it on the list

>before. Its worth a try! Emma likes the bath. I was wondering about

>the treatment, how does that work? 1 part salt to 4 parts water. Do

>you just soak a facecloth and apply to the skin for a couple of

>minutes?

>thank you all for the info!

>Dawn, Emma's mom

[Guest guest]

Dawn,

I was just wondering if you tried the epsom salts bath and if it helped...

At 04:57 AM 2/18/2004 +0000, you wrote:

>--

>Thanks to and all the others that have responded to my

>phenobarbitol questions! I know that there is a lot of wisdom on

>this list and It really does help! The ebsome salt answere is very

>interesting. I remember reading something about it on the list

>before. Its worth a try! Emma likes the bath. I was wondering about

>the treatment, how does that work? 1 part salt to 4 parts water. Do

>you just soak a facecloth and apply to the skin for a couple of

>minutes?

>thank you all for the info!

>Dawn, Emma's mom