Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 Carolyn, Carol Flexer has several articles and a book on the educational and classroom needs for hearing impaired kids. She also has a handy chart (I think in the book) that shows the significance of the hearing loss at each of its levels. She has several talking points that may be helpful to you as you collect information to share with the school. She, as an audiologist and cert AVT, feels very strongly about the necessity of a FM system; other people believe it should be introduced later when teaching becomes more auditory in focus. We're at the same stage as you, as our daughter will transition out of EI next summer. Similarly, she has the same expressive language skills as your daughter. It's new territory for us, but we've been educating ourselves as much as possible and getting ready for those meetings. We're fortunate that both of my parents are school administrators that spend lots of time discussing IEPs, so I'm familiar with both sides of the issue. Kerry IEP advice I have an almost-3 year old, Leila, with hearing loss who is currently unaided. We've been meeting with early intervention with the intention of having them help transition us to the school system. It sounds like the school does not want to " pick her up " as a special ed student because her hearing loss is not delaying her speech and language development (at 2.9, her speech and language tested at 4+ years). I don't expect the school to pay for significant services, but I feel that since she is likely to be aided in the next 6-12 months, and that she may have difficulties in a classroom setting, they should at least be monitoring her. It's difficult to predict now what she will need further down the road. Are they allowed to refuse services like an fm system because she's smart enough to do well in spite of her hearing impairment? Should we wait until she has hearing aids to approach them? Wait until school age? Any advice on what we should be asking for, if anything? Thanks, --Carolyn Mom to (bilateral high-end loss, not aided, going for her annual Maya (hearing) Leila (bilateral " v-shaped " loss, mild to moderately-severe and back to mild) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 You have a tough case, I completely understand your concern. I have a son who will be 3 next week and will be starting special preschool in January as soon as Christmas break is over. You deffinately have good concerns. I would ask your audiologist to please do a work recognition test on her if you haven't already had one with the audi's mouth covered so she can't read her lips. This will tell a lot about how much she really understands through her hearing alone. Not just that but also have them do the same test with background noise. You should have the result of both these tests when going to an IEP meeting. This will be significant when discussing whether or not they are going to provide her with an FM system. First I wonder why if she has a mild loss does she not already have hearing aids? I know she is doing well but it has been found that mild losses in young children have an adverse effect on educational performance. I am so impressed that she has better than average speech and language, that is great, and you are right for wanting to keep an eye on that. Of course the school has certain criteria for who does and does not qualify and if she passes all the evaluations there is no way to get her into the special programs. Do you sign with your daughter? I ask because one option is your local school for the Deaf and Blind. They usually use sign language though and I don't know if that is a road you want to take, but maybe call and talk to someone about different programs like if they have programs for primary talkers at that school. The public schools often mainstream children who are HI but just because they are in a normal class doesn't mean they don't get special services. They probably will be reluctant given her exceptional language skills to give her speech therapy, but take advantage of the IEP to put in spacific things that you want them to work with your daughter on because if the teacher can't do these things they may provide her with an aid for additional help. For instance the teacher should always make sure your daughter is within close range of her, and if the class is noisy ask her to take note of whether or not that makes it difficult to understand. I really don't know what else to do because if she passes all the evals then they are not required to give her services. I feel for you though because with my son he has a mild high frequency loss and they don't want to give him aids and the audiologist doesn't trust the results of an ABR so because his audiograms were ok she doesn't approve him for an FM system either. Go figure. My biggest suggestion is have her get the speech recognition auidogram with and without background noise and take the results with you to the IEP meeting because if she has any trouble on that with their mouth covered then it is likely your daughter is doing very well at lip reading. Which is great but can create problems in a classroom environment like when the teacher is too far away or her back is turned to your daughter. IEP advice I have an almost-3 year old, Leila, with hearing loss who is currently unaided. We've been meeting with early intervention with the intention of having them help transition us to the school system. It sounds like the school does not want to " pick her up " as a special ed student because her hearing loss is not delaying her speech and language development (at 2.9, her speech and language tested at 4+ years). I don't expect the school to pay for significant services, but I feel that since she is likely to be aided in the next 6-12 months, and that she may have difficulties in a classroom setting, they should at least be monitoring her. It's difficult to predict now what she will need further down the road. Are they allowed to refuse services like an fm system because she's smart enough to do well in spite of her hearing impairment? Should we wait until she has hearing aids to approach them? Wait until school age? Any advice on what we should be asking for, if anything? Thanks, --Carolyn Mom to (bilateral high-end loss, not aided, going for her annual Maya (hearing) Leila (bilateral " v-shaped " loss, mild to moderately-severe and back to mild) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 Hey Carolyn, They tried to deny an IEP too, when he was turning 3. They also said he was doing too well. I ended up writing a long letter explaining how a little monitoring at age 3 would save them lots of money in remedial help later. Also came on strong with the 'educationally significant' part of his hearing loss because those are the magic words that open all the doors. It was important to note that good language is not the only predictor of academic success. I also got letters of support from 's classroom teacher, pediatrician, developmental neonatologist, and two audiologists. They laid it on pretty thick. I can fax you a copy of our letter to the Providence SPED director, but since my hard drive died last summer I don't have an electronic copy any more. The issue to note when you're arguing your case is not whether Leila is doing well right now, but if her hearing loss has an adverse effect on any part of her learning or development (or her potential learning & development). Citing Carol Flexer in your arguments is a great idea since she's such an authority. Remember that the IEP is an Individual plan, based on the child's needs and not the needs of some group, and a high IQ or educational performance in some areas should not result in a child being denied services. Kay has an OSEP letter that talks about this subject here: http://www.listen-up.org/rights2/osep13.htm HOWEVER, if Leila really is doing really well in all areas and you have no concerns about her academic or social development, then you might consider a 504 plan. As a hard-of-hearing person she has certain rights under ADA, whether she has great language or not. Here's more: http://www.ldonline.org/ld_indepth/legal_legislative/edlaw504.html Finally, I have to note that at 3, we could not tell that had a hearing loss. He was doing so well developmentally. But starting at around 3 the trouble started and I don't know where I'd be now if he didn't have an IEP. It has saved his academic career, no question. And he still has highly advanced language, so don't let anyone tell you that's the only determiner of whether they're doing well in school or not! With the right arguments you should be able to get them to monitor her regularly. It doesn't cost them that much. Good luck. Daphne > IEP advice > > > I have an almost-3 year old, Leila, with hearing loss who is currently > unaided. We've been meeting with early intervention with the intention of > having them help transition us to the school system. It sounds like > the school does not want to " pick her up " as a special ed student because > her hearing loss is not delaying her speech and language development > (at 2.9, her speech and language tested at 4+ years). > > I don't expect the school to pay for significant services, but I feel > that since she is likely to be aided in the next 6-12 months, and that > she may have difficulties in a classroom setting, they should at least > be monitoring her. It's difficult to predict now what she will > need further > down the road. > > Are they allowed to refuse services like an fm system because she's smart > enough to do well in spite of her hearing impairment? Should we > wait until > she has hearing aids to approach them? Wait until school age? > Any advice > on what we should be asking for, if anything? > > Thanks, > --Carolyn > Mom to (bilateral high-end loss, not aided, going for her annual > Maya (hearing) > Leila (bilateral " v-shaped " loss, mild to moderately-severe and > back to mild) > > > > All messages posted to this list are private and confidential. > Each post is the intellectual property of the author and > therefore subject to copyright restrictions. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 Just because your child is doing " OK " does not mean she is not eligible for services. I would make the point to the school that her speech and language development so far was done with lots of 1-on-1 and home, and optimal ratios to learn. Most classroom environments are difficult to listen in - and they should provide her services to ensure she has equal access to the ciricculum. Sitting at home listening to your parents talk is a far different situation than in a classroom. I would encourage the school to take a proactive stance, as opposed to waiting for her to struggle, then doing something. Colin _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of our best MSN Dial-up offer of the year — six months @$9.95/month. Sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 Just because your child is doing " OK " does not mean she is not eligible for services. I would make the point to the school that her speech and language development so far was done with lots of 1-on-1 and home, and optimal ratios to learn. Most classroom environments are difficult to listen in - and they should provide her services to ensure she has equal access to the ciricculum. Sitting at home listening to your parents talk is a far different situation than in a classroom. I would encourage the school to take a proactive stance, as opposed to waiting for her to struggle, then doing something. Colin _________________________________________________________________ Take advantage of our best MSN Dial-up offer of the year — six months @$9.95/month. Sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2003 Report Share Posted December 7, 2003 Hearing loss is not an automatic in for special education - my younger son, Sam, has a profound hearing loss. He is now in third grade, fully mainstreamed, and because he's grade level and more on everything, is not considered a candidate for special education. He was in special ed until the end of first grade. That being said, he is now on a 504 plan which provides him with accommodations but not services. that so far has worked well for him - and if we do have concerns, they've been addressed (i.e. language testing earlier this year). His hearing loss *does* qualify him for a 504 plan. So for now, that's working for us. I would say that it's hard to predict how a child who is three years old will do in elementary school - particularly from third grade on. He hasn't learned to read yet, etc., etc. so just being watched for language and reading issues is important. I like Daphne's argument about giving your child services now to hopefully save money down the line. That's certainly what we've seen with Sam. He had good early intervention from the time he was 15 months old, then transistioned to preschool special ed, then had two years of services in kindergarten and first grade (primarily speech) to get him to where he is now. Barbara Deb wrote--- I may be wrong, but I don't think they can refuse her from being in the special ed(early childhood) class. I was under in impression that hearing loss was an " automatic " in. I know when we went through the IEP evaluation process, I wasn't sure she would get in, but it soon became apparent to me that everyone on the IEP team knew she was going to be assigned there, it was just a matter of writing up her goals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 In a message dated 12/7/2003 8:52:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, stern@... writes: > Are they allowed to refuse services like an fm system because she's smart > enough to do well in spite of her hearing impairment? Should we wait until > she has hearing aids to approach them? Wait until school age? Any advice > on what we should be asking for, if anything? > Simply -- no, they cannot now or later deny your child services because she is too smart, but it will make things harder for you. Her services are based on a physical disability that causes a significant educational impact. The point of services is to get our kids an equitable education. But that does not mean providing services for them to become the best they can be. Your child may be capable of being validictorian, but the school does not have to provide help past the point that she is getting a good education. That said, at such an early age the argument for/against services should not revolve around whether she is bright, but whether the hearing loss has an educational impact -- and it does. Language aquisition is so key at a young age, and later on more advanced language skills can be affected. Once in school setting -- a larger group then pre-school or our family setting, our Ian started to have some troubles. For instance, when he got older he had trouble with idioms because they do not have concrete meanings -- they simply made no sense to him. Our son does not have any traditional learning disabilities (aside from his hearng loss) so he is now classified under 504. He has an FM system, a TOD (teach of the deaf) and alternative testing parameters based on his disability -- and he is an honor roll student. But without those accommodations he would be failing. The issue, for us, isn't about his IQ but about his ability to access the education being provided, and HOH kids need help doing that no matter how bright they are. We heard the " too smart " argument even as Ian was failing to complete any of his classwork and failing 2nd grade. But their argument did not hold up -- you cannot argue to retain a child and then argue that he did not require services because he was too bright. I wish I knew then what I know now, I never would have let things get to that point. You're off to a good start by asking this group. So many have experince with EI that I know you'll get good pointers. Best - Jill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 8, 2003 Report Share Posted December 8, 2003 Dear Carolyn, I'm afraid that you have run into what is becoming one of the most common problems in special education for children who are deaf or hard of hearing. Because so many children are being identified at birth, (Over two thirds of children born today are tested for hearing los before they leave the hospital.) And receiving appropriate hearing technology and support at very early ages, many are reaching school age with speech and language that is as good as that of their typically hearing peers. School systems are often not ready to handle children who have disabilities but who are not severely compromised. Keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of kids who are identified for special ed have some form of learning disability which usually don't show up until later in school, when they have trouble reading, for example. Probably even more important, the schools often do not know about the advances for these children and the potential for success in school and life. I have seen several children like yours who are being denied special education because the schools claim that they are testing too well to qualify for special education. The problem is in the fact that they are not applying the results of their evaluations properly. The situation you described is the most common I've seen. The only evaluations are an audiogram, and a language test that shows the child has age appropriate language skills. The problem then, is the misunderstanding of how these results fit in the requirements of the law. The question that these language evaluations answer is where your child stands on the range of children with respect to her language skills. It says that she would not qualify for special education under the category of speech and language impairment. If she did not have a hearing loss, it would be one of the right questions to ask. However, the question that the multidisciplinary team should be asking in your case is: This is a child who has the condition of deafness or of hearing impairment, does she, as a result of this hearing loss require special education? This is a very different question. The way to address this appropriately is for you to ask the professionals wh are currently working with your child if she needs services to help her to compensate for her hearing loss. These could include speech and language, even if she is above age, if they are designed to address issues cause by hearing loss. These evacuations and recommendations should be made in writing. They should be specific to your child, and they should refer only to her. Articles by Carol Flexor, and others, no matter how eminent are going to be less convincing than input from people who actually know your child and her needs. Ask the professionals to address specific questions, " does she need language training? " " Does she need help to develop listing skills? " " Does she need support to develop conversation repair strategies and social interaction skills? " And, " what specific services are needed, and where should she receive them? " One more important thing, the review of these materials and the decision of whether your child qualifies for special ed is not left up to the school. It must be made by a multidiscilinary team which must include you as the child's parents. The decision cannot be made on the basis of a single test. The procedure for conducting an initial evaluation are found in sections 300.530 - 535 of the Federal Regulations. JMF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 It's my understanding that hearing impairment goes under a " Physical disability " in reference to the laws and automatically receive services in the school? Does this only apply in certain states or is it universal? When I lived in NJ and my daughter did not qualify for services according to there testing? (barely making there standards) I told them there were violating my daughters rights and immediately got services for her including OT. Now that I live in FL they tried the same thing and the hearing impaired teacher (great advocate) got involved and she got the services she needs. The only difference here is that teacher has to be a " variance teacher' " ( a teacher that specializes in many disabilities) not only a SLD teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 It's my understanding that hearing impairment goes under a " Physical disability " in reference to the laws and automatically receive services in the school? Does this only apply in certain states or is it universal? When I lived in NJ and my daughter did not qualify for services according to there testing? (barely making there standards) I told them there were violating my daughters rights and immediately got services for her including OT. Now that I live in FL they tried the same thing and the hearing impaired teacher (great advocate) got involved and she got the services she needs. The only difference here is that teacher has to be a " variance teacher' " ( a teacher that specializes in many disabilities) not only a SLD teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 I was not aware that physical disability automatically received services. I think the confusion is coming from the fact that every state has different laws, but there is one federal law IDEA which all the state laws much follow, they can give more services if that state wants but they can't give less. My understanding of getting services for physical disability is even if you have a physical disability you still have to qualify. There are many children with physical disabilities who are mainstreamed and some who are able to self cath, and cathing is often the entire reason for an IEP, but if the child can do it themselves and they are only physically impaired they don't receive services. I have a 5 year old who is physically disabled and every year they retest him to make sure he is still elegable for services. I don't know what each individual state law is but each state has different laws and it all depends on how it is worded. The most important thing, which is ironically often the most difficult thing to find is the exact wording of what is the law in your state. It took me months to find this, people who claimed they knew the law because they have to follow it couldn't find it for me, so really they knew their policy but not the law. I wanted to know the exact wording because that can make a world of difference. In our state it mentions a loss of hearing acuity, in other words clearity, so a child does not need a hearing loss of sensitivity to a certain degree, we had proof that the clearity of sound is getting is compromised and yet they still insist that he does not fit as hearing impaired. We got services the ones we wanted so I have not really fought but I know in the future I will have to and I will eventually need to get a lawyer if they don't acomidate , because the wording of their law clearly does not say a certain loss of dB it says a loss of clearity, but they don't follow it that way, they take acuity to mean sensitivity and that is changing the words because they don't mean the same thing. Anyway I just thought I would get a little deeper into this because really you won't get very far unless you know the laws and even though the school claims that they do, they can't quote it or show it to you so you need to see it for yourself and show it to them word for word. Re: Re: IEP advice It's my understanding that hearing impairment goes under a " Physical disability " in reference to the laws and automatically receive services in the school? Does this only apply in certain states or is it universal? When I lived in NJ and my daughter did not qualify for services according to there testing? (barely making there standards) I told them there were violating my daughters rights and immediately got services for her including OT. Now that I live in FL they tried the same thing and the hearing impaired teacher (great advocate) got involved and she got the services she needs. The only difference here is that teacher has to be a " variance teacher' " ( a teacher that specializes in many disabilities) not only a SLD teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 I was not aware that physical disability automatically received services. I think the confusion is coming from the fact that every state has different laws, but there is one federal law IDEA which all the state laws much follow, they can give more services if that state wants but they can't give less. My understanding of getting services for physical disability is even if you have a physical disability you still have to qualify. There are many children with physical disabilities who are mainstreamed and some who are able to self cath, and cathing is often the entire reason for an IEP, but if the child can do it themselves and they are only physically impaired they don't receive services. I have a 5 year old who is physically disabled and every year they retest him to make sure he is still elegable for services. I don't know what each individual state law is but each state has different laws and it all depends on how it is worded. The most important thing, which is ironically often the most difficult thing to find is the exact wording of what is the law in your state. It took me months to find this, people who claimed they knew the law because they have to follow it couldn't find it for me, so really they knew their policy but not the law. I wanted to know the exact wording because that can make a world of difference. In our state it mentions a loss of hearing acuity, in other words clearity, so a child does not need a hearing loss of sensitivity to a certain degree, we had proof that the clearity of sound is getting is compromised and yet they still insist that he does not fit as hearing impaired. We got services the ones we wanted so I have not really fought but I know in the future I will have to and I will eventually need to get a lawyer if they don't acomidate , because the wording of their law clearly does not say a certain loss of dB it says a loss of clearity, but they don't follow it that way, they take acuity to mean sensitivity and that is changing the words because they don't mean the same thing. Anyway I just thought I would get a little deeper into this because really you won't get very far unless you know the laws and even though the school claims that they do, they can't quote it or show it to you so you need to see it for yourself and show it to them word for word. Re: Re: IEP advice It's my understanding that hearing impairment goes under a " Physical disability " in reference to the laws and automatically receive services in the school? Does this only apply in certain states or is it universal? When I lived in NJ and my daughter did not qualify for services according to there testing? (barely making there standards) I told them there were violating my daughters rights and immediately got services for her including OT. Now that I live in FL they tried the same thing and the hearing impaired teacher (great advocate) got involved and she got the services she needs. The only difference here is that teacher has to be a " variance teacher' " ( a teacher that specializes in many disabilities) not only a SLD teacher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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