Re: Traditional versus Alternative

[Guest guest]

Hi Vic, I will try to answer your questions:

First of all, how bad are your numbers? Many people will say get on ATDs and

when your numbers are normal, if you want to switch to natural stuff, then

go ahead and do that. If your numbers are really bad, then I would probably

recommend that as well.

If they are not so bad and you are not feeling too horrible, then maybe you

can give the natural thing a go right off. The thing is that the natural

stuff takes longer than the traditional ATDs do... or, maybe not, now that I

think of it... It took me about 2 months to get my numbers to start coming

down and for me to start feeling consistently better. They say with ATDs

that it can take 4-8 weeks as well. So, same thing. I don't know how long it

takes for ATDs to get your numbers in the normal range... my numbers still

aren't in the normal range.

As you probably already know, the alternative stuff will go a long way

toward healing the whole body, not just treating the symptoms like

traditional medicine does. That is why just ATDs without any lifestyle

changes makes it much harder to reach remission and get off the ATDs. We

need all the other stuff to heal all of our bodies, not just our thyroid or

our immune system. And sometimes healing the whole body takes time.

Hyperthyroid can cause damage to your heart, to your muscles and to your

bones. A beta blocker will help protect your heart and magnesium, calcium

and vitamin D will help protect your muscles and bones, and heart too. A

beta blocker would be an excellent thing for you to get on with your heart

rate. I'm surprised your doc didn't already prescribe one. In fact, if I

were you, I would call her tomorrow and insist on a scrip. That is probably

why she is rushing you into an endo. But you know, good for her for rushing

you in to an endo, especially if she doesn't know how to treat you. I had a

hell of a time getting referred to an endo and getting treatment, and that

is why I went the natural road rather than ATDs... I'm glad now but at the

time it was really frustrating.

The beta blocker will calm you down and make it easier to sleep. At least it

did for me.

The muscle damage is happening because your metabolism is so fast that you

are literally starving. Your food is being flushed right though, not staying

long enough to provide food for the body, the body is pulling from all it's

fat reserves and when those are gone, it starts on your muscles and bones.

You need to eat more for now if that is happening and take calcium and

magnesium. I have gotten most of my muscle back, though it is not as fit as

it used to be.. I may be skinny, but I'm certainly not fit - flabby skinny,

is that an oxymoron? LOL.

Watch out for the magnesium - as in start it slowly - or you will be in the

bathroom all day long, if you know what I mean.

Hope this helps, and also, I know there are lots of horror stories about

horrible endos, but not all of them are bad, and maybe you will get lucky

right off with a good one.

Pam B.

My story: http://www.webmosaics.com/thyroid/

Open Letter to the newly diagnosed:

http://www.webmosaics.com/thyroid/letter.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi Vic, I will try to answer your questions:

First of all, how bad are your numbers? Many people will say get on ATDs and

when your numbers are normal, if you want to switch to natural stuff, then

go ahead and do that. If your numbers are really bad, then I would probably

recommend that as well.

If they are not so bad and you are not feeling too horrible, then maybe you

can give the natural thing a go right off. The thing is that the natural

stuff takes longer than the traditional ATDs do... or, maybe not, now that I

think of it... It took me about 2 months to get my numbers to start coming

down and for me to start feeling consistently better. They say with ATDs

that it can take 4-8 weeks as well. So, same thing. I don't know how long it

takes for ATDs to get your numbers in the normal range... my numbers still

aren't in the normal range.

As you probably already know, the alternative stuff will go a long way

toward healing the whole body, not just treating the symptoms like

traditional medicine does. That is why just ATDs without any lifestyle

changes makes it much harder to reach remission and get off the ATDs. We

need all the other stuff to heal all of our bodies, not just our thyroid or

our immune system. And sometimes healing the whole body takes time.

Hyperthyroid can cause damage to your heart, to your muscles and to your

bones. A beta blocker will help protect your heart and magnesium, calcium

and vitamin D will help protect your muscles and bones, and heart too. A

beta blocker would be an excellent thing for you to get on with your heart

rate. I'm surprised your doc didn't already prescribe one. In fact, if I

were you, I would call her tomorrow and insist on a scrip. That is probably

why she is rushing you into an endo. But you know, good for her for rushing

you in to an endo, especially if she doesn't know how to treat you. I had a

hell of a time getting referred to an endo and getting treatment, and that

is why I went the natural road rather than ATDs... I'm glad now but at the

time it was really frustrating.

The beta blocker will calm you down and make it easier to sleep. At least it

did for me.

The muscle damage is happening because your metabolism is so fast that you

are literally starving. Your food is being flushed right though, not staying

long enough to provide food for the body, the body is pulling from all it's

fat reserves and when those are gone, it starts on your muscles and bones.

You need to eat more for now if that is happening and take calcium and

magnesium. I have gotten most of my muscle back, though it is not as fit as

it used to be.. I may be skinny, but I'm certainly not fit - flabby skinny,

is that an oxymoron? LOL.

Watch out for the magnesium - as in start it slowly - or you will be in the

bathroom all day long, if you know what I mean.

Hope this helps, and also, I know there are lots of horror stories about

horrible endos, but not all of them are bad, and maybe you will get lucky

right off with a good one.

Pam B.

My story: http://www.webmosaics.com/thyroid/

Open Letter to the newly diagnosed:

http://www.webmosaics.com/thyroid/letter.htm

[Guest guest]

Hi Vic,

How long can you wait, after first being diagnosed, to see if an

alternative approach is working for you?

* In the best circumstances, treatment should start as soon as humanly

possible.

I know this is a difficult

question because who can predict the future, but is there any way of

telling whether I can afford to go on a trial with an alternative

method for a few months?

* That will depend on how serious your hyper is. The labs tests will be your

best final decision maker. And certainly the extent of your current symptoms

We all want to avoid drugs and such, but sometimes this is just not a very

wise thing with a serious disease like graves' / hyper.

It may turn out, you will need to start on anti thyroid drugs to kick start

this whole process. You can still be smart about the whole healing process

and work on nutrition and supplements to speed things along. Once you become

stable for awhile, and have had time to educate yourself, THEN you may

choose to integrate natural means into your treatment plan.

What are the possible consequences of

delaying traditional treatment?

* If you already have a high heart rate, trouble sleeping, muscle weakness..

..damage has already started.

The biggest problems with untreated or under treated hyper is long term

heart damage and bone loss.

I have given my blood test results to my naturopath. She said it

would take her a couple of days to research everything.

* Sounds like she is smart. I had several NP that refused to treat me early

on. They were smart enough to know I had to have faster results to prevent

more damage than had already occurred. And they knew I was very hyper and

not controlled on the drugs yet. Natural methods would have been too slow

for ME, at that point.

It will all depend on your symptoms and lab results.

I When are drugs prescribed

* During your endo visit, he will probably give you a scrip. Be very sure

before you take these drugs, that he does blood test to give you a baseline

reading on your liver function and white blood count. These can both already

be off...and since the drugs can also affect these..you need to be able to

tell the difference.

and when is it necessary to have RAI?

* NEVER !

My doctor said it was urgent

that I see the endo. Is his urgency based on heart rate?

* Possibly heart rate, but most likely a combination of heart rate, test

results, and other symptoms.

If the treatment is to take a beta blocker to slow the heart down,

does that, in itself, let you get the sleep that you so desperately

need?

* It should help immediately. It will help cover up many symptoms, but has

NO affect on the hyper. Depending on how hyper you are now, the beta

blockers may or may not help with sleep. I was VERY hyper and it took just

over 3 weeks after diagnosis, to ever get any sleep at all, and I was on

beta blockers.

If one treats the symptoms, what can be done about the affect

the disease has on the metabolism?

* Only treatment for the hyper itself will help the metabolism.

Is muscle damage always going

on? Do muscles come back when the disease is treated, either

alternatively or traditionally?

* Yes...in time the damage will stop, once you get your thyroid to stop over

producing. THEN you will be able to build your muscles back up. My neighbor

s brother just climbed Mt. Hood yesterday. Seems he does it all the time

now, post Graves'.

We all know you have a million questions right now, so no need to apologize

for asking too much. We all did !

-Pam L -

[Guest guest]

>

> Reply-To: graves_support

> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 04:24:48 -0000

> To: graves_support

> Subject: Traditional versus Alternative

>

> How long can you wait, after first being diagnosed, to see if an

> alternative approach is working for you? I know this is a difficult

> question because who can predict the future, but is there any way of

> telling whether I can afford to go on a trial with an alternative

> method for a few months? What are the possible consequences of

> delaying traditional treatment? I have read a lot of information.

> None of it really clearly states at what point damage occurs because

> of the hyperthyroid.

I consulted an endo, and then refused to take any meds for about the first

year, trusting to my alternative--which was Chinese herbal medicine. It

worked for a while, my numbers got steadily better, but then we went on

vacation, I couldn't brew my herbs, and the powdered ones didn't work as

well since the main herb that was helping was not available in powder form.

So when I came back, I was a wreck and acquiesced to starting the Tapazole.

I still do take Chinese herbs along with it (the powders), and I'm sure that

my symptoms have been much less than many other peoples, because I take my

herbs.

That said, it does depend on how bad shape you're in to start with!

>

> I have given my blood test results to my naturopath. She said it

> would take her a couple of days to research everything. I will

> probably see the endo within the next few days.

I hope you an find an endo who will work with the naturopath!

>

> If it is cancer causing the hyperthyroidism, then I will have no

> choice, but to have surgery. Cancer as a cause is rare, so I will

> say that that is probably not the cause. When are drugs prescribed

> and when is it necessary to have RAI? My doctor said it was urgent

> that I see the endo. Is his urgency based on heart rate?

What is your heart rate when resting?

>

> If the treatment is to take a beta blocker to slow the heart down,

> does that, in itself, let you get the sleep that you so desperately

> need? If one treats the symptoms, what can be done about the affect

> the disease has on the metabolism? Is muscle damage always going

> on? Do muscles come back when the disease is treated, either

> alternatively or traditionally?

Beta blockers slow the heart temporarily while the ATD is kicking in; unless

you have other issues like high BP, it is a temporary measure. It does not

treat the GD, just the heart rate. When you start taking ATD's and

controlling the hyperthyroidism, your metabolism evens out, and muscle tone

will return, with careful exercise. Personally, I exercise a lot--Tai chi

every morning, most days a half-hour or so vigorous walk in a hilly park

with my dog, and 4-5 nights a week, I also do an hour of PT exercises I

started doing after a car accident, to strengthen and tone my various parts.

>

> I have a lot of questions. I will stop there.

It's great to ask specific questions like this, gives us something helpful

to do, answering them! Hope my answers help,

Terry

>

> Vic

>

>

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------

> The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not

> intended to replace expert medical care.

> Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

> ----------------------------------------

> DISCLAIMER

>

> Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the endorsement of

> the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to emails.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> --------

>

>

[Guest guest]

>

> Reply-To: graves_support

> Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 04:24:48 -0000

> To: graves_support

> Subject: Traditional versus Alternative

>

> How long can you wait, after first being diagnosed, to see if an

> alternative approach is working for you? I know this is a difficult

> question because who can predict the future, but is there any way of

> telling whether I can afford to go on a trial with an alternative

> method for a few months? What are the possible consequences of

> delaying traditional treatment? I have read a lot of information.

> None of it really clearly states at what point damage occurs because

> of the hyperthyroid.

I consulted an endo, and then refused to take any meds for about the first

year, trusting to my alternative--which was Chinese herbal medicine. It

worked for a while, my numbers got steadily better, but then we went on

vacation, I couldn't brew my herbs, and the powdered ones didn't work as

well since the main herb that was helping was not available in powder form.

So when I came back, I was a wreck and acquiesced to starting the Tapazole.

I still do take Chinese herbs along with it (the powders), and I'm sure that

my symptoms have been much less than many other peoples, because I take my

herbs.

That said, it does depend on how bad shape you're in to start with!

>

> I have given my blood test results to my naturopath. She said it

> would take her a couple of days to research everything. I will

> probably see the endo within the next few days.

I hope you an find an endo who will work with the naturopath!

>

> If it is cancer causing the hyperthyroidism, then I will have no

> choice, but to have surgery. Cancer as a cause is rare, so I will

> say that that is probably not the cause. When are drugs prescribed

> and when is it necessary to have RAI? My doctor said it was urgent

> that I see the endo. Is his urgency based on heart rate?

What is your heart rate when resting?

>

> If the treatment is to take a beta blocker to slow the heart down,

> does that, in itself, let you get the sleep that you so desperately

> need? If one treats the symptoms, what can be done about the affect

> the disease has on the metabolism? Is muscle damage always going

> on? Do muscles come back when the disease is treated, either

> alternatively or traditionally?

Beta blockers slow the heart temporarily while the ATD is kicking in; unless

you have other issues like high BP, it is a temporary measure. It does not

treat the GD, just the heart rate. When you start taking ATD's and

controlling the hyperthyroidism, your metabolism evens out, and muscle tone

will return, with careful exercise. Personally, I exercise a lot--Tai chi

every morning, most days a half-hour or so vigorous walk in a hilly park

with my dog, and 4-5 nights a week, I also do an hour of PT exercises I

started doing after a car accident, to strengthen and tone my various parts.

>

> I have a lot of questions. I will stop there.

It's great to ask specific questions like this, gives us something helpful

to do, answering them! Hope my answers help,

Terry

>

> Vic

>

>

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------

> The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not

> intended to replace expert medical care.

> Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

> ----------------------------------------

> DISCLAIMER

>

> Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the endorsement of

> the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to emails.

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

> --------

>

>

[Guest guest]

vscottbo wrote:

>

> None of it really clearly states at what point damage occurs because

> of the hyperthyroid.

Okay as others have said damage is ongoing, to muscles, to

bones, to other tissues being overworked.

The main reasons for death from hyperthyroidism are heart attack

and stroke.

Most people who (are known to) die from hyperthyroidism, die

soon after diagnosis, either because treatment was too late.

Most texts recommend prescribing betablockers or antithyroid

drugs if an endo appointment can't be arranged promptly.

> When are drugs prescribed and when is it necessary to have RAI?

I was prescribed a Methimazole based antithyroid drug

(Carbimazole), and a small dose of betablockers, the day my

blood test results came back hyper from the lab. I was a real

mess with resting pulse >120, muscle weakness, and weight loss.

Methimazole based drugs are one of the wonders of modern

medicine, and I think eschewing them would be ill advised for

any but the most mild forms of hyperthyroidism.

You can use alternative treatments alongside Methimazole based

drugs, but I think turning down Methimazole in favour of

alternative approaches would be like turning down aspirin so you

can try willow bark.

RAI ablation is only strictly necessary if a thyroid cancer has

spread away from the thyroid area, or when a thyroid must be

reduced in size, and the drugs don't work and thyroid surgery is

not possible for some reason.

Use of RAI isn't restricted only to cases where it is necessary,

some here think that is a cavalier use of RAI.

[Guest guest]

Hi Vic -

I agree with everyone so far. It really depends on how severe your hyperT is

now. What do your lab values indicate? If the labs are pretty high, it would

be better to get on ATDs first and get the numbers down, and then try some

alternatives. If you're still mild, then you can probably give them a try

for a couple months. If you do, just make sure that you are unde the

supervision of a doctor to monitor you. I would suggest labs every 2 months

if your doc will go for that. I started off on alternatives very early in

the disease and had labs every 3 months. I can tell you 3 months was just a

little too long, 2 would have been better. I started using supplements in

mid August and by October, my FT3 and FT4 were already back down to normal

range.

Beta blocker is a good idea if your heart rate is fairly high. Mine was only

90-100 resting, and the beta made me feel worse, so I just used Magnesium

with much better success.

As for muscle wasting, the damage will stop once you get the thyroid levels

back to normal. But as for the muscles " coming back " , exercise is necessary

to get them back to their " normal " state. Mine aren't as weak as they once

were, but the certainly aren't as strong as they used to be. I need to build

mine own back up as well!

Good luck. It can be done.

Traditional versus Alternative

> How long can you wait, after first being diagnosed, to see if an

> alternative approach is working for you? I know this is a difficult

> question because who can predict the future, but is there any way of

> telling whether I can afford to go on a trial with an alternative

> method for a few months? What are the possible consequences of

> delaying traditional treatment? I have read a lot of information.

> None of it really clearly states at what point damage occurs because

> of the hyperthyroid.

>

> I have given my blood test results to my naturopath. She said it

> would take her a couple of days to research everything. I will

> probably see the endo within the next few days.

>

> If it is cancer causing the hyperthyroidism, then I will have no

> choice, but to have surgery. Cancer as a cause is rare, so I will

> say that that is probably not the cause. When are drugs prescribed

> and when is it necessary to have RAI? My doctor said it was urgent

> that I see the endo. Is his urgency based on heart rate?

>

> If the treatment is to take a beta blocker to slow the heart down,

> does that, in itself, let you get the sleep that you so desperately

> need? If one treats the symptoms, what can be done about the affect

> the disease has on the metabolism? Is muscle damage always going

> on? Do muscles come back when the disease is treated, either

> alternatively or traditionally?

>

> I have a lot of questions. I will stop there.

>

> Vic

>

>

>

>

>

> -------------------------------------

> The Graves' list is intended for informational purposes only and is not

intended to replace expert medical care.

> Please consult your doctor before changing or trying new treatments.

> ----------------------------------------

> DISCLAIMER

>

> Advertisments placed on this yahoo groups list do not have the endorsement

of

> the listowner. I have no input as to what ads are attached to emails.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Vic,

>>>How long can you wait, after first being diagnosed, to see if an

>>>alternative approach is working for you? I know this is a difficult

>>>question because who can predict the future, but is there any way of

>>>telling whether I can afford to go on a trial with an alternative method

>>>for a few months? What are the possible consequences of delaying

>>>traditional treatment? I have read a lot of information. None of it

>>>really clearly states at what point damage occurs because of the

>>>hyperthyroid.<<<

Damage to your heart is the main concern I would have right now. The heart

is a muscle and when hyper it goes into overdrive working very hard and as

with any muscle, it can enlarge because of this. This was the main concern

my doctor had when I came out of thyroid storm. He said enlargement to the

heart and heart damage caused by graves is irreversible. Beta Blocker

<Inderal, Propananol, Atenol> will help to slow down your metabolism and

slow your heart rate which will give you some relief.

>>>I have given my blood test results to my naturopath. She said it would

>>>take her a couple of days to research everything. I will probably see

>>>the endo within the next few days.<<<

If your naturopath has no history in treating graves, I would tread

cautiously. I think it is wonderful that she is open to doing research for

you on this, but if she has no knowledge, then any treatment she offers at

this time is going to be trial and error. Personally I feel this could be

dangerous for you, at least while you are so hyper and have so much excess

hormone in your body.

>>>If it is cancer causing the hyperthyroidism, then I will have no choice,

>>>but to have surgery. Cancer as a cause is rare, so I will say that that

>>>is probably not the cause. When are drugs prescribed and when is it

>>>necessary to have RAI? My doctor said it was urgent that I see the endo.

>>> Is his urgency based on heart rate?<<<

Cancer IS rare so that is a good thing. Beta Blocker and one of the ATD's

<MMI, Tapazole, PTU> would be prescribed, these will block your thyroid from

making more hormone and allow your body to use up the excess. When the

excess is used up you will see a huge difference in how you feel and atd's

will be reduced until you are on a small maintenence dose while your

antibodies come down and hopefully you will attain remission. The Beta

Blocker I explained above, the one thing about Beta's is you MUST WEAN off

of them slowly.

*I* don't believe RAI is EVER necessary, when cancer is not involved. Then

it could be a different story. If you would not be able to take the ATD's,

natural approach doesn't work, you always have surgery as an option. I know

many who have doen surgery and have no regrets. It is the option I would

now choose if I were faced with making a permanent decision and know what I

know now.

>>>If the treatment is to take a beta blocker to slow the heart down,

does that, in itself, let you get the sleep that you so desperately

need? If one treats the symptoms, what can be done about the affect

the disease has on the metabolism? Is muscle damage always going

on? Do muscles come back when the disease is treated, either

alternatively or traditionally?<<<

Beta Blockers may help you to get a bit more sleep, but you will not be

sleeping well until all of the excess hormone is used up in your system.

Muscle damage occurs when we are hyper and it can become very

debilitating...the muscles will come back with exercise when you are no

longer hyper. You should NOT be exercising AT ALL right now, not until your

levels show you to be euthryoid <normal> again. Something to talk about

with your doctors.

>>>I have a lot of questions.<<<

Keep asking!!! It is how we learn ;-)

Graves Disease is a disease of our immune systems, it is NOT a diseased

thyroid. The only treatment offered currently, in the tradiational sense of

treatment that will address this issue is the use of one of the antithyroid

drugs to bring down your autoantibody levels, TSI, TPO, TRAb are 3 of them.

You can read more on antibodies here;

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/graves_disease/54459

I really do suggest you get and read 2 books, Graves Disease; A Practical

Guide by Elaine which will go into all treatments, including

alternatives, really helps us understand our labs, shares several peoples

journey's in their treatment of choice, including alternatives...the other

book is The Thyroid Solution by Dr. Ridha Arem, a wonderful overall thyroid

book that will give you some answers on the working of the thyroid in

general, why it is so essential and what can go wrong with it.

As for starting out on alternatives, what I am about to say is strictly *MY*

opinion...I would want a naturopath who already has history in treating

graves this way, it would depend on how serious your graves is, how close to

storm you may be before persuing this treatment option. The alternatives

appear to take more time to kick in, <by watching Pam B.'s journey in this>

and untreated graves can be deadly. Maybe something to consider would be

starting on ATD's to bring your levels into a more normal range, then begin

the alternative treatments in, once you are not so at risk for some serious

side effects. I say this because, , from another board I am involved

in was using alternatives only, went into storm, and was hospitalized for a

few days...she is not using PTU to bring her levels more normal then will go

back to her alternatives once she is stable. It was a very scary time for

her and for all of us who watched her continue to get worse in the

hyperthyroid.

As I said, this is my own opinion. I am not big on risk taking, though

watching Pam B.'s journey is fascinating to me, she is very diligent in her

approach, is monitored by a naturopath and by doctors at the Bastry

Institute. She is monitored very closely, has learned to read the signals

her body gives her and doesn't hesitate to call any of her doctors when she

needs to. She has a link at the end of all her posts so we can follow her

journey in alternatives, and her accomplishments...it is a slow process but

she is getting better <though I still worry about her high pulse>.

Education is the key, no matter what treatment you choose, lifestyle

changes, diet changes, reducing stress all play a part.

When you see the endo, do not be surprised if he pushes RAI. If you have

already decided not to do it, just tell him right up front that is not a

treatment option you are going to discuss, period! Know if you do the

atd's, proper dosing and monitoring are essential. Labs every 4 weeks will

help. I also suggest you go to the home page for this group, click on the

files section and print up the numerous files there, the symptoms list, 20

reasons not to do rai and so many more. You will be well armed when you see

the endo.

Take care, and keep asking questions.

Jody

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