Guest guest Posted March 16, 2004 Report Share Posted March 16, 2004 In a message dated 3/16/2004 5:11:02 PM Central Standard Time, regasega@... writes: Before I came down with AFib Friday, I had been doing 1 mile on the treadmill at 5.5 mph, three times per week. I'm wondering what others' experiences have been with exercise while in AFib. Is there any chance that it could help to convert me back to sinus? Or am I just asking for trouble? Larry xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Speeking from my experience, I continued to work out and ride my bike for 6 mo while in afib. Part of my success was that I didn't know what I had but was taking a beta blocker for blood pressure so that helped control my heart rate. I think if you can control your heart rate so that it does not get too high, say 220-your age, exercise should not be a problem. Once I started taking amiodarone I have always been able to convert with exercise, but thats me. Afib is so unique per individual that you just have to find out what works. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2004 Report Share Posted March 16, 2004 In a message dated 3/16/2004 5:11:02 PM Central Standard Time, regasega@... writes: Before I came down with AFib Friday, I had been doing 1 mile on the treadmill at 5.5 mph, three times per week. I'm wondering what others' experiences have been with exercise while in AFib. Is there any chance that it could help to convert me back to sinus? Or am I just asking for trouble? Larry xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Speeking from my experience, I continued to work out and ride my bike for 6 mo while in afib. Part of my success was that I didn't know what I had but was taking a beta blocker for blood pressure so that helped control my heart rate. I think if you can control your heart rate so that it does not get too high, say 220-your age, exercise should not be a problem. Once I started taking amiodarone I have always been able to convert with exercise, but thats me. Afib is so unique per individual that you just have to find out what works. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2004 Report Share Posted March 16, 2004 In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:11:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, regasega@... writes: << I'm wondering what others' experiences have been with exercise while in AFib. Is there any chance that it could help to convert me back to sinus? Or am I just asking for trouble? >> Larry, I think you should get your doctor's opinion on that. If you have no other underlying structural or heart disease problems, it's possible that exercise could help you convert or at least would not hurt you. Exercise has helped me to convert at times, and my older brother has always exercised vigorously, in afib and out. My cardiologist tells me there are no restrictions on my current activity, but I had a stress echo test which revealed that I am at a fitness level for exercising without concern. The only activity that he facetiously forbade was rock climbing because of the Coumadin. I don't think it's likely that many of us would want to try that sport on or off of Coumadin anyway. :-) in sinus in Seattle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 16, 2004 Report Share Posted March 16, 2004 In a message dated 3/16/2004 3:11:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, regasega@... writes: << I'm wondering what others' experiences have been with exercise while in AFib. Is there any chance that it could help to convert me back to sinus? Or am I just asking for trouble? >> Larry, I think you should get your doctor's opinion on that. If you have no other underlying structural or heart disease problems, it's possible that exercise could help you convert or at least would not hurt you. Exercise has helped me to convert at times, and my older brother has always exercised vigorously, in afib and out. My cardiologist tells me there are no restrictions on my current activity, but I had a stress echo test which revealed that I am at a fitness level for exercising without concern. The only activity that he facetiously forbade was rock climbing because of the Coumadin. I don't think it's likely that many of us would want to try that sport on or off of Coumadin anyway. :-) in sinus in Seattle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 In a message dated 3/16/04 9:57:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, Starfi6314@... writes: > I'm wondering what > others' experiences have been with exercise while in AFib. Is there > any chance that it could help to convert me back to sinus? Or am I > just asking for trouble? My cardiologist said I could exercise, and in fact encouraged it (for weight loss as well). They gave me guidelines for it ... they said not to take my heart rate as it will be misleading with a-fib. If I'm not in a-fib, there are no restrictions. If I go into a-fib while exercising, I'm to note my breathing, not my heart rate. If I'm not short of breath, I can continue but moderately. If I'm in a-fib to start with, I am likewise to check my breathing, not my heart rate. They said as long as I can breathe easily, to not push too hard, but to do steady and gentle (like walking) and back off from jogging or running if shortness of breath occurs. Otherwise, they said it's safe to exercise in a-fib. Once it actually stopped an attack. I must say, though, that when I have many days without a-fib, I am less likely to exercise as I am so afraid of my heart rate going up ... am still working on this fear. Again, I think it's individual and your cardiologist needs to give you the guidelines that would work for you. good luck! Toni CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 In a message dated 3/16/04 9:57:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, Starfi6314@... writes: > I'm wondering what > others' experiences have been with exercise while in AFib. Is there > any chance that it could help to convert me back to sinus? Or am I > just asking for trouble? My cardiologist said I could exercise, and in fact encouraged it (for weight loss as well). They gave me guidelines for it ... they said not to take my heart rate as it will be misleading with a-fib. If I'm not in a-fib, there are no restrictions. If I go into a-fib while exercising, I'm to note my breathing, not my heart rate. If I'm not short of breath, I can continue but moderately. If I'm in a-fib to start with, I am likewise to check my breathing, not my heart rate. They said as long as I can breathe easily, to not push too hard, but to do steady and gentle (like walking) and back off from jogging or running if shortness of breath occurs. Otherwise, they said it's safe to exercise in a-fib. Once it actually stopped an attack. I must say, though, that when I have many days without a-fib, I am less likely to exercise as I am so afraid of my heart rate going up ... am still working on this fear. Again, I think it's individual and your cardiologist needs to give you the guidelines that would work for you. good luck! Toni CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 Larry I'm sure you'll hear from lots Fibbers on this subject. I have a friend who has had occasional A-Fib for over 20 years & by exercising (running) converts himself to NSR. That worked for him all these years till the last year when his A-fib became chronic. He had a PVA in Arizona on Monday, which so far has been successful. I've seen a number of posts on this board where vigorous exercise is a trigger for AF. Everyone is different, apparently. What does your Card. advise ? Thor Afib and Exercise Before I came down with AFib Friday, I had been doing 1 mile on the treadmill at 5.5 mph, three times per week. I'm wondering what others' experiences have been with exercise while in AFib. Is there any chance that it could help to convert me back to sinus? Or am I just asking for trouble? Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 > Larry > I'm sure you'll hear from lots Fibbers on this subject. I have a friend who has had occasional A-Fib for over 20 years & by exercising (running) converts himself to NSR. That worked for him all these years till the last year when his A-fib became chronic. > He had a PVA in Arizona on Monday, which so far has been successful. I've seen a number of posts on this board where vigorous exercise is a trigger for AF. Everyone is different, apparently. What does your Card. advise ? My card advised to go ahead and exercise. Just that I'm try to get the darn thing to go back to NSR and don't want to do something that might prevent that. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2004 Report Share Posted March 17, 2004 > Larry > I'm sure you'll hear from lots Fibbers on this subject. I have a friend who has had occasional A-Fib for over 20 years & by exercising (running) converts himself to NSR. That worked for him all these years till the last year when his A-fib became chronic. > He had a PVA in Arizona on Monday, which so far has been successful. I've seen a number of posts on this board where vigorous exercise is a trigger for AF. Everyone is different, apparently. What does your Card. advise ? My card advised to go ahead and exercise. Just that I'm try to get the darn thing to go back to NSR and don't want to do something that might prevent that. Larry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 In a message dated 3/19/2004 8:38:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, quarteracreorchids@... writes: << > In a message dated 3/16/04 9:57:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Starfi6314@... writes: > > > I'm wondering what others' experiences have been with > > exercise while in AFib. Is there any chance that it > > could help to convert me back to sinus? Or am I just > > asking for trouble? Wrong quoting; Starfi6314@... did not write this. >> That's right. I did not write this. My experience with exercising while in afib and while in sinus has been positive. My doctor has approved any amount of exercise I want to do, but he asked me to refrain from rock climbing since I am on Coumadin. Since I have no wild desire to go rock climbing anyway, :-) I content myself with walking my frenetic dog (a whole body workout), hiking, bicycling, and lifting weights. When I am in afib, I have less endurance, but I can do everything that I do when I am in sinus albeit more slowly and for a shorter time period. I have experienced cardioversion as a result of exercise, but exercise doesn't always stimulate cardioversion for me, unfortunately. in sinus in Seattle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 > From: indiaink99@... > Date: 3/17/04, 10:09 AM -0500 > > In a message dated 3/16/04 9:57:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Starfi6314@... writes: > > > I'm wondering what others' experiences have been with > > exercise while in AFib. Is there any chance that it > > could help to convert me back to sinus? Or am I just > > asking for trouble? Wrong quoting; Starfi6314@... did not write this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 > From: indiaink99@... > Date: 3/17/04, 10:09 AM -0500 > > In a message dated 3/16/04 9:57:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Starfi6314@... writes: > > > I'm wondering what others' experiences have been with > > exercise while in AFib. Is there any chance that it > > could help to convert me back to sinus? Or am I just > > asking for trouble? Wrong quoting; Starfi6314@... did not write this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 > From: indiaink99@... > Date: 3/17/04, 10:09 AM -0500 > > In a message dated 3/16/04 9:57:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Starfi6314@... writes: > > > I'm wondering what others' experiences have been with > > exercise while in AFib. Is there any chance that it > > could help to convert me back to sinus? Or am I just > > asking for trouble? Wrong quoting; Starfi6314@... did not write this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 Fred - your replies are not very positive or friendly... I hope that whatever has soured your disposition this evening resolves itself . Let us know if there is anything we can do to help. fredmcc@... wrote: > From: indiaink99@... > Date: 3/17/04, 10:09 AM -0500 > > In a message dated 3/16/04 9:57:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, > Starfi6314@... writes: > > > I'm wondering what others' experiences have been with > > exercise while in AFib. Is there any chance that it > > could help to convert me back to sinus? Or am I just > > asking for trouble? Wrong quoting; Starfi6314@... did not write this. Backup web page - http://afibsupport.proboards23.com List owner: AFIBsupport-owner For help on how to use the group, including how to drive it via email, send a blank email to AFIBsupport-help Nothing in this message should be considered as medical advice, or should be acted upon without consultation with one's physician. --------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 You've noticed that too. Maybe a good old electrocardioversion would ease the tension. P <MI> .............................................. > > From: indiaink99@a... > > Date: 3/17/04, 10:09 AM -0500 > > > > In a message dated 3/16/04 9:57:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > Starfi6314@a... writes: > > > > > I'm wondering what others' experiences have been with > > > exercise while in AFib. Is there any chance that it > > > could help to convert me back to sinus? Or am I just > > > asking for trouble? > > > Wrong quoting; Starfi6314@a... did not write this. > > > > > > > > Backup web page - http://afibsupport.proboards23.com > List owner: AFIBsupport-owner > For help on how to use the group, including how to drive it via email, > send a blank email to AFIBsupport-help > > Nothing in this message should be considered as medical advice, or should be acted upon without consultation with one's physician. > > > > --------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 You've noticed that too. Maybe a good old electrocardioversion would ease the tension. P <MI> .............................................. > > From: indiaink99@a... > > Date: 3/17/04, 10:09 AM -0500 > > > > In a message dated 3/16/04 9:57:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, > > Starfi6314@a... writes: > > > > > I'm wondering what others' experiences have been with > > > exercise while in AFib. Is there any chance that it > > > could help to convert me back to sinus? Or am I just > > > asking for trouble? > > > Wrong quoting; Starfi6314@a... did not write this. > > > > > > > > Backup web page - http://afibsupport.proboards23.com > List owner: AFIBsupport-owner > For help on how to use the group, including how to drive it via email, > send a blank email to AFIBsupport-help > > Nothing in this message should be considered as medical advice, or should be acted upon without consultation with one's physician. > > > > --------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 LOL: I was thinking that very same thing myself.........do men go thru menopause???? LOL! Debbi, OU Alum in OKC <quarteracreorchids@y...> wrote: > Fred - your replies are not very positive or friendly... I hope that whatever has soured your disposition this evening resolves itself . Let us know if there is anything we can do to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 LOL: I was thinking that very same thing myself.........do men go thru menopause???? LOL! Debbi, OU Alum in OKC <quarteracreorchids@y...> wrote: > Fred - your replies are not very positive or friendly... I hope that whatever has soured your disposition this evening resolves itself . Let us know if there is anything we can do to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2004 Report Share Posted March 19, 2004 Exercise has been a VERY effective method for me to convert within the 24 hour limit that my cardio set, even though it often feels like the totally wrong thing to do. If I go beyond 24 hours in AF I am to go to the hospital and get converted. He says that there is zero chance of a clot if I convert on my own before the 24 hours are up (I take one 325 mg aspirin a day). This will be long winded, but I think the details may be useful to some of you if you want to try this approach. Here are some examples of what I do while in AF: Leg press on a leg sled: I will press 800-1000 pounds in sets of 50-70 repetitions, using my strongest range of motion to engage the greatest amount of muscle. Perhaps do two or three sets, somewhere around 150-200 reps total. This is " anaerobic " exercise which means I don't breathe that hard during the set, but afterwards everything fires up as those leg muscles demand and soak up oxygen. I usually convert during the period my heart must pump all this extra blood. Leg press on a " home gym " : I have really outgrown this particular machine because it only offers 400 pounds of resistance. But it is set up so that I can safely use a full range of motion (there is no need to engage safeties, as nothing can fall on me) where I sit in a chair and push horizontally against a plate that works through a pulley system. Sometimes I have converted from this exercise alone, but it really is just not enough stress in itself. But it is a great warm up for the exercycle (see below). Exercycle: Same general approach as the treadmill (below). I gradually work up to a faster and faster speed, then drop off suddenly for a breather, then resume. Sometimes I do 50-60 leg presses (on the full range of motion machine) to warm up for the exercycle. After pushing all that weight with my legs, the exercycle seems like a feather and I can go faster, or so it seems. The seat on the thing can hurt my tailbone if I go too long, and it tends to strain the ligaments that connect to my knees when I pump it fast, but this seems a small price to pay for getting rid of AF. Treadmill: I slowly work up to 4 mph at a 10% or greater incline. I use a technique in which I stop at every 10 minute mark and let my heart slow down a bit, then hit it again, pushing myself a little harder. Many conversions take place when I resume the exercise for a couple of minutes. Typically it will take 10-30 minutes of this type of exercise to convert. I have a TV set up so I can watch a full cycle of CNN Headline News while I'm doing this relatively boring exercise. I keep rather detailed records of my episodes since I average just two or three per month, though there is wide variation, some episodes occurring in the same day (AF has a mind of its own). Anyway, of the last 30 times I tried exercise, I converted in 29 of them due to the exercise. Over the longer haul, it is about 80% effective. I think the reason for the greater success rate lately is that I have refined my technique with the start/pause/resume routine. I attempt to put gradually increasing demands on my heart will I am in am active phase. I often feel the conversion as a sudden increase in energy and capacity while pushing higher on the treadmill or bike. I like to continue for at least 5-7 minutes in NSR at the elevated rate to ensure all the excess electricity is drained off. I find that if I try exercise " too early " - say in the first 15 minutes of AF - I can convert but it will often return, in 5-15 minutes and perhaps last for hours and hours. Seems like there is a certain amount of electricity that must expend itself. Like I say, AF has a mind of its own. And it is different for everyone who suffers from it. I've developed what seems like it might be an intuitive sense of when the thing is vulnerable to breaking. My main cardio finds all this very interesting. Even introduced me to an intern as " the guy who breaks AF with his exercycle " . By the way, he has completely cleared me for all this exercise via stress test and echo. And, about 80% of my episodes start while I am asleep (and wake me up, as most can easily imagine), which tends to peg me as " vagal " . But I am not sure because I take 100 mg of Tenormin a day and that much beta blocker is supposed to put a vagal affiber into persistent AF. That's hardly the case for me. I'm paroxysmal. In fact, the Tenormin mediates the severity of the episodes, I believe. In the early years (I've had this for more than 15 years) the attacks were initially much more severe and I was only taking 50 mg of Tenormin then. Some of those attacks were so bad I was afraid to move and concluded they were panic attacks (I certainly was panicked). I would let them subside a bit then hop on an exercise machine thinking exercise was the absolute worst possible thing I could do, given how I felt. But I did it anyway and it would work. My resting heart rate while in AF, as measured by a hospital heart monitor, is usually around 105. Of those 105 beats, I can only feel 80 or so at my wrist. The others, apparently, are too ineffective to move blood. I can see on the monitor, too, that the ones I don't feel are wimpy beats, often too close to a beat that produces a pulse at the wrist. I know there are disclaimers attached to these message. That said, I warn anyone who thinks strenuous exercise might help to talk it over with their cardio FIRST. I'm confident it is not a good approach for everyone. Mine says I have a " dynamic heart " that pumps an unusual amount of blood and I could live in AF indefinitely without any real effect on my lifestyle, which is why I can move those huge weights and trudge up those inclines while in AF. Myself, I don't quite agree that it does not affect my lifestyle but understand AF is a tremendous burden on others and wonder it it might not become so on myself as the disease progresses. I do not feel as strong while in AF and it is obvious to me that my " dynamic heart " is not quite as " dynamic " . And the psychological aspect of desperately wanting it to go away before I need to go to the hospital is very troubling (though I understand many are more affected than I and must deal with blood thinners, unsuccessful attempts to convert, etc.). And when I say exercise " works " I do not mean always the first time. Sometimes I go through these routines several times before they succeed - yet I count that as " exercise converted " if it breaks AF before the 24 hours are up. A month ago I had an episode that lasted 23 hours and 10 minutes. I lost count of how many times I pushed the weight on my sled and how much work I did on the treadmill, I just pushed and pushed and pushed, with rest periods in between. When it did not break, I because depressed that I was headed to the ER, but thought to run up the basement stairs as one last effort and a big session of the leg sled. Luckily, that final stress cracked it. It took me three days to get over all the exercise, though. Finally, if you use a leg sled, know how to use it. When I first got mine I would pull the stops back and drop the weight way down and " time " my reps so that fatigue and failure would occur at the top of the push, at which point I would lock the weight out. But once I got the timing off (with 1,000 pounds sliding down towards my vulnerable body) and realized I would be crushed pretty good. I experienced a rush of adrenaline that was sufficient to push them back up with my totally exhausted legs and lock them out. Since then, I use the strongest range of motion approach, which is to keep the safeties in place at the top end of their motion. If you get a leg machine, make sure the saftey stops are located so that you can use it while they are in place. On mine, I use the middle stop. These machines will also let you perform " hack squats " that are intrinsically safer than " unstopped " leg presses, but you cannot engage as much muscle in that exercise (I use just 300 pounds for this exercise and it is a real strain). Hence, the load on your heart will not be as great when you come out of anaerobic mode, if in fact you go into it in the first place. I also don't like this exercise because it compresses my spine enough that I can feel it decompress when I get out from under the weight. My sports doc said there was no threat to my disks, even though he seemed to acknowledge that what I was feeling was the de-flattening /re-expansioning of them. I'm a little doubtful of his opinion since I am almost 62 years old and it seems enough squashing and one of them will bulge if not burst open. Those disks have never given me a problem, but they are not exactly young. Hope this helps someone. I can say that reading your messages has helped me get a better perspective on things. I will surely be asking questions later, too. - Oklahoma Alum in Kazoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2004 Report Share Posted March 20, 2004 In a message dated 3/19/04 7:33:25 PM Pacific Standard Time, fredmcc@... writes: > Wrong quoting; Starfi6314@... did not write this. I would like to address this to the list monitors, hoping you will pull it before it posts. I thought you were watching this " Fredmcc " guy. He just posted three posts in a row telling people they were wrong, or correcting things that are unnecessary to correct. People understand that quoting into a response sometimes miscorrectly identify who said what. Who cares? This guy is nothing but a negative influence on the list (in my opinion). He has never shared one constructive thing. All he does is criticize others. Is this necessary? I'm about ready to quit this list he annoys me so much with his constant criticism of others. Can you please do something? Thanks. Toni CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2004 Report Share Posted March 20, 2004 : I just read your post. WOW! You must be in great shape, wish I could say the same. Having COPD really limits my ability to work out (it's hard to do dragging around a 50' hose attached to oxygen). But what can I say about a fellow alum. Sounds like you've got things under control. Thanks for a great informative post. Debbi, OU Alum in OKC ***************************************************************** > Exercise has been a VERY effective method for me to convert within the > 24 hour limit that my cardio set, even though it often feels like the > totally wrong thing to do. If I go beyond 24 hours in AF I am to go to > the hospital and get converted. He says that there is zero chance of a > clot if I convert on my own before the 24 hours are up (I take one 325 > mg aspirin a day). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2004 Report Share Posted March 20, 2004 Debbie: I understand some about COPD. My wife has it and is on oxygen 24/7. On the other hand, the only thing that is necessary, as far as I can tell, is to do whatever exercise that will get your heart rate up. The point I ws trying to make is that legs are the largest muscles and are most likely to do that. Because I've been working mine for so long, it takes a lot of weight to do this. Most people should be able to get the same heart rates at far less weight or far less effort on the exercycle/treadmill. I don't know if you can do a treadmill at all. They are " weight bearing " and exercises legs nicely. My wife can a little. She had a stress test and is cleared for it, although the stress test was the type they do with a drug to accelerate the heart beat. She was not put on a treadmill, as they did for me. When she is on the treadmill she turns the oxygen compressor up to its max. There was a recent study done that shows people with COPD do much better if they increase their exercise tolerance. Much better, in fact, than the standard tests for FEV (lung capacity) would suggest. And of course there is that new drug that was just approved, Spiriva. It appears to reverse some of the damage done to lung capacity. I woke up this morning in AF. It was fairly symptomatic and so I woke up early, from the symptoms. I let it calm down for several hours, as described earlier. I just got done exercising my legs with both leg press machines and some exercycle, and it broke during the cool down period. I forgot to mention in my previous message ... some times it breaks just about the time my heart rate returns to pre exercise levels. I also " count " something like this as converted by exercise because it has happened too many times over the years to think it is coincidence. AF is one weird disease. I know that, compared to some, it seems like mine might be " in control " but I don't really see it that way myself. The only in control AF is the AF that has been eliminated for good. I am contemplating ablation and find the info circulating in this group most helpful. There just doesn't seem to be any drug that can do that for the long run, and the side effects are significant on all of the even semi-effective ones. I was at OU from 62-68. Received a double BA in English and Philosophy and finished with a MFA in Art (Painting). Favorite profs were Joe Hobbs-art, Ruggiers-english, and Ken Merrill-philosophy (I know this last paragraph is off topic. I hope I can be excused.) - OU alum in Kazoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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