Re: Greetings from New List Member

[Guest guest]

welcome ,

that was indeed a good observation your friend made. when i was in AA someone

was trying

to make a different point and asked " if there is any other way to be sober, why

aren't those

people here telling us about it? " he was challenging the idea any thing else

worked, when i left

AA i knew the reason was because AA wouldn't welcome their ideas. AA has been

the same

for 60 years for a reason, it doesn't want to be changed or challenged to grow

beyond what it is.

it demands conformity of experience (spiritual awakening), and those who dont

share that

experience aren't really made comfortable ( " we agnostics " sets that tone).

i too stopped thinking of myself as alcoholic, its a masochistic label to apply

ones former habit

as their identify for life. i met a man in AA who introduced himself as " im an

alcoholic and my

name is pete " because he said his alcoholism was pertinent to his identify than

his name. that

sent a red flags up to me that there was something wrong there.

there already books on the subject, but please dont let that discourage your

from writing one. as

for your friends maybe you can help them along by telling them about this forum

or introducing

them to the books of Ken Ragge, charles bufe, and stanton peele. there also is a

book called

AA Horror stories, which may be of interest to you, you can find any of them on

amazon.com or

your local giant bookstore /coffee shop.

also check out the links and files section of this group to help your research

further along

[Guest guest]

welcome ,

that was indeed a good observation your friend made. when i was in AA someone

was trying

to make a different point and asked " if there is any other way to be sober, why

aren't those

people here telling us about it? " he was challenging the idea any thing else

worked, when i left

AA i knew the reason was because AA wouldn't welcome their ideas. AA has been

the same

for 60 years for a reason, it doesn't want to be changed or challenged to grow

beyond what it is.

it demands conformity of experience (spiritual awakening), and those who dont

share that

experience aren't really made comfortable ( " we agnostics " sets that tone).

i too stopped thinking of myself as alcoholic, its a masochistic label to apply

ones former habit

as their identify for life. i met a man in AA who introduced himself as " im an

alcoholic and my

name is pete " because he said his alcoholism was pertinent to his identify than

his name. that

sent a red flags up to me that there was something wrong there.

there already books on the subject, but please dont let that discourage your

from writing one. as

for your friends maybe you can help them along by telling them about this forum

or introducing

them to the books of Ken Ragge, charles bufe, and stanton peele. there also is a

book called

AA Horror stories, which may be of interest to you, you can find any of them on

amazon.com or

your local giant bookstore /coffee shop.

also check out the links and files section of this group to help your research

further along

[Guest guest]

,

Wow! Your story brought me out of the shadows. Your story and

conclusions about the 12 step movement are articulate and insightful

to say the least.

I do however believe I know where the people with the really long

term sobriey are. They retired to Flordia where they spew their

wisdom and emotionally abuse newcomers, lol.

Good luck to you,

CAG

> Greetings to all on the List.

>

> I am new to this list, obviously, and feel like a proper

introduction is in

> order. This message gets long. Most of what I have to say is

experiential

> rather than theoretical and I felt a fair amount of background was

> necessary. I hope that if I have exceeded any message length

etiquette that

> this will be regarded as a onetime offense.

>

> I am a former member of AA. I have several friends who are former

members of

> AA as well. We met either in AA or through people in AA about 10

years ago.

> A couple of my friends and acquaintances still attend. We are all

critical

> of AA. Lately I have been talking to them about trying to collect

stories

> from people who no longer attend AA, to compile a book that dispels

a lot of

> the myths about the necessity and monopoly of AA. A few years ago

one of my

> friends stood up at a meeting and asked the very poignant

question, " Where

> are all the old timers? If AA is as successful, and necessary for

lasting

> sobriety, where are all the people who have 20, 30, or 40 years of

sobriety?

> There should be many here tonight. " This simple observation implies

a lot. I

> was not present at this meeting, I had quit AA before this event.

But I was

> happy to hear that he had rattled the cage. He told me that one

person

> approached him afterward and thanked him for bringing this up.

Interestingly

> he was not met with any direct confrontation. But how could anyone

dispute

> something that is so plainly evident?

>

> In AA you always hear that those who leave eventually drink against

their

> wills. This is also obviously not so. Surely, not all those would-be

> old-timers are drunk. I know a few. Some moderate, I know a few of

them too.

>

> So, anyway back to my book idea. Well, I decided to research this

idea a

> little and stopped dead in my tracks when I got on the Internet to

see if

> anyone had organized any such people and found this list as well as

some

> various publications. So for now I have abandoned the book idea. I

am very

> happy to see that there are a lot of other people who share a

distaste for

> things AA - who have given some serious thought to the problems of

> alcoholism and drug addiction and care enough to share their

thoughts. I

> also started to feel a need to again reexamine my experience in AA

and my

> experience with alcohol and drugs. I tried to accept the

brainwashing AA

> offered. It never took, and I was always arguing these things with

my

> sponsor. Now I would like to get a keener vision of it all and

survey the

> damage. I have always felt that the treatment centers and the AA

did me some

> harm. They didn't need to smash my already crushed ego and then

insist on

> religion, did they? I guess it never occurred to anyone to just talk

> straight with me.

>

> A couple weeks ago, I had a couple old friends from high school

contact me.

> We used to drink a lot together. They have both managed to abstain

for 2

> years or so. They both attribute this to their AA membership. I

don't. This

> is an interesting development. The last time I saw either of these

people, I

> was a " hard core " AA member - service work, meetings, sponsor,

sponsees, Big

> Book, AA history, I was " doing the deal " . They were surprised to

hear that I

> no longer attend AA. " What do you do in its place " , one of them

asked.

> " Nothing " , said I. Later I pondered that AA indeed functions as an

alcohol

> substitute for some people, so I could see where my friend may have

been

> coming from. I haven't really gotten into it with them yet. Most of

our

> conversations have been about old times and old friends. But the

day is

> coming when I will need to lay it on the line, and I won't be able

to do so

> without challenging a lot of the things they currently believe.

This may be

> good for them. It is probably good for everyone. I have to believe

that they

> will figure this out for themselves in time as I did anyway. I

never gave AA

> a proper farewell. This may be my chance.

>

> My parents' divorce at age 10, and subsequent remarriages, one to

an abusive

> stepparent, were very traumatic events. Unfortunately it took a

long time

> before I decided to grow beyond the effects. At age 11, my father

decided he

> had a drinking problem and did the treatment/AA deal. He stopped

attending

> AA after about 5 years and is better for it. At age 14, I overdosed

on

> alcohol. I wanted to see what it was to be drunk. Well, my

ignorance almost

> killed me. I drank the whole litre and landed in the hospital near

death. At

> age 16, I was a nervous wreck, and very unhappy at home. Drinking

with older

> friends was easy and fun. I knew right away, that summer, that I

had some

> sort of problem. I drank all the time and it felt right. At age 17,

I was in

> my first chemical dependency rehabilitation program. I was on an all

> adolescent unit. The manipulation and psychological warfare by the

staff was

> constant. When I gave a detailed and honest account of my drug use

my

> inquisitors told me I was " rationalizing " . That was 1985.

>

> I live in the heartland of treatment centers, Minnesota, not far

from

> Hazelden. There are halfway houses and treatment facilities all

over the

> Twin Cities. This may be true of most major metropolitan areas in

this

> country now, but I know that a lot of people still come to

Minnesota for

> treatment. Minnesota is a very liberal state and public funding for

alcohol

> and drug treatment was a snap during the 80's and early 90's.

That's changed

> some by now.

>

> So I was born in the thick of the Tx/AA/disease/insurance/healthcare

> culture, if you will. From 1985 to 1990 I was in treatment

facilities a

> total of 5 more times each time I wanted to get sober. I also

stayed at a

> couple halfway houses and similar facilities. I went to countless AA

> meetings. That was how " recovery " was supposed to work - you get

treatment

> and detoxification, and then you go to AA for the rest of your

life, right?

> These were the popular notions then, and I think they still are to

a large

> degree.

>

> Alcohol was a real problem for me. I also had a lot of lingering

emotional

> ill health. Since my childhood, I had been walking around feeling

worthless,

> powerless, and stupid. In my early 20's I was a depressed, anxious,

nervous

> wreck. And I was drunk and/or stoned all day everyday. When my

father would

> say, " Why won't you take charge of your life? " I would think, " Dad,

don't

> you understand? The first step says I am powerless. " The

book, " Alcoholics

> Anonymous " told me that I had " lost the power of choice in drink. "

The

> popular and widely espoused idea in AA and treatment said that I was

> completely and utterly powerless over everything - " people, places,

and

> things " , as they say in the AA meetings I used to attend. So rather

than

> being a help to me, these ideas kept me right where I didn't need

to be -

> waiting on a miracle. The last thing I needed in my life was more

ego

> deflation. But I was vulnerable and needed some sort of help.

>

> I was not thinking very clearly at that time. No one in my immediate

> environment was thinking very clearly at that time. Short of a

miracle, what

> would be my hope?

>

> The last day I drank, the miracle came. I opened my eyes, and made a

> decision. I sat on my bed and said, " This is the end. It only gets

worse

> each time. This is it. " I proceeded to seek help in AA. I can't say

that all

> my AA experiences were bad. If anything, I met a handful of very

close and

> interesting friends who I continue to enjoy. They are mostly no

longer AA

> people themselves. Those who do attend are on the fringe.

>

> AA didn't help me with my emotional troubles. Not much anyway. Some

of the

> socialization eventually helped me start to feel like less of a

freak I

> suppose. My AA sponsor, though a hardnosed Big Book type, also

didn't buy

> the powerlessness trip, and as a good friend implored me to

challenge

> myself. And being around other people who were into the same basic

goal

> probably provided a more affirmative environment.

>

> About my 2nd year sober I became very involved in local AA service

work, I

> started sponsoring people, I was speaking at treatment centers and

detox, I

> knew the Big Book inside and out, I knew AA history, I was going to

> meetings, calling my sponsor, praying and meditating. I was

sometimes trying

> to make my experience match what the Big Book said was true for us

all, but

> I wasn't always saying what I was supposed to, and I just couldn't

make it

> match. I learned the game and I played it to a degree, but I have an

> inquisitive mind and I annoyed my sponsor with philosophical

questions about

> what the AA program implied. I met other people in AA with the same

> questions.

>

> I should mention that earlier in my AA experience when I started

to " open my

> mind " to spiritual or religious ideas, I started attending a church

with a

> coworker. This phase still embarrasses me, but I think it

illustrates some

> parallels with my AA experience. This church was a fundamentalist

evangelist

> thing. I even spoke in tongues. It was actually something I had

already

> learned to do while very drunk one night and screwing around with

friends. I

> really tried. I read that bible at least 3 times through and the New

> Testament several more. I met with church elders with my questions

for which

> they had no answers. I just couldn't believe. It was all too

ridiculous and

> dangerous. My intellect proved less vulnerable than my emotions.

>

> A similar triumph happened in AA. When religion failed, I thought I

could

> still be okay in AA. But I burned out, and still suffered horrible

> depressions. Something was eating me, and guess what? AA's

moralistic, guilt

> laden message was not helping. The prayers were unanswered. I

stopped

> praying. Let me note that over the years my AA attendance had been

sporadic.

> It just lacked something potent all along. I wanted to get at the

core of

> what had been eating me all those years, but showing up at AA

meetings to

> hear people talk about how they are " nothing but an alcoholic " ,

that " being

> an alcoholic is the most important fact of my life " , and then lay a

lot of

> the same old moralistic rubbish on themselves about how they were

bad people

> desperately seeking miracles.need I say more. Near the end, I would

attend

> AA meetings and not stand with the group to open and close the

meetings with

> prayers. I didn't believe in that God, I didn't pray in my own

life. And I

> stopped introducing myself as an alcoholic. Alcoholics are people

who drink.

> I don't drink. Why call myself something I am not? To fit in? I was

done

> with AA.

>

> I found a valuable aid in a psychotherapist to help me sort out

some of my

> emotional stuff. I started making some new choices for myself, and

in so

> doing started to realize that the reason I was sober was certainly

not

> because I had played by all the rules. I had not, in fact, I had

many

> periods of absence from AA, and I could never accept the " God "

idea. My

> intense period of activity in AA actually only lasted about 2

years. I just

> couldn't believe. I have come to realize that my decision to stop

drinking

> in 1990 is the reason I am still sober. I tried to play the game, I

even

> laid it on thick, but facts are facts. Everything in my life was

the result

> of choices I had made within certain limitations. I chose not to

drink and

> to remain abstinent. Thus, I have remained sober. No miracle. I had

no

> " spiritual experience " as a requisite to abstinence or a freer

life. I do

> have the power of choice in drink and always have. When I decided I

didn't

> want to do it anymore, I stopped. The cultural setting in which I

found

> myself instructed me to follow an unnecessary path in AA. But no

matter how

> much I tried to believe in things that were not true, I still

continued to

> make right decisions for myself. My success came from me, not

from " coming

> to believe " in anything.

>

> AA has complicated things for me along the way. I think it was

helpful in

> some ways - social, an emphasis on self-examination - but so much

of it is

> bullshit. And I probably don't need to share all the abuses of some

of its

> members. There are a lot of bad ideas in AA. The Big Book is chock

full of

> rhetoric and fallacies. I took what I needed, myself, and left the

rest.

>

> I choose abstinence. I remember well how I felt drunk. I don't

believe I

> would like it any less. I remember the payoff. It seems cheap now.

And the

> consequences were no fun. I don't have an interest in alcoholic

beverages

> and I don't feel a need to conduct a test. I don't have a general

feeling

> that anyone else should do as I do or as I think. Different

situations need

> different things. Just as alcohol and the Big Book did not provide

the

> answer to all my problems, AA or any other one thing is not the

answer for

> all.

>

> s

[Guest guest]

:

Check out THE TRUTH ABOUT AA, AA HORROR STORIES, RESISTING 12-STEP COERCION,

and aadeprogramming.com. Like you, I had a fucked up childhood, alcoholic

father, sociopathic mother, sociopathic brother, poverty, much assorted

constant abuse. I have a psychoanalyst now. My father died with 17 years of

abstinence. He was very paranoid and phobic about people, so he couldn't go

to meetings. He abstained on his own.

I have chosen to abstain on my own. I have many aa horror stories I could

tell. They would fill a book. Any person should approach their problems

with addiction by whatever means they choose. I would not recommend aa or

rational recovery. In rational recovery, you supposedly have this mysterious

" addictive voice " . Sounds like a lot of crap to me. I rejected it

immediately. I know nothing about SOS, or LSR. I've heard of SMART.

Apparently a split off of rational recovery.

My last aa friend blew me off when I told her about the reading I had been

doing. She has an " alternative " women's only type aa meeting at her house.

She said everyone was worried about me because I hadn't shown up in a while.

She told me she honestly believed she relapsed because she didn't have a

group to share her recovery with and aa fills that need for her. If she so

much believes that, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy, and she stays

sober.

I do not regard myself as a recovering alcoholic, pothead, LSD freak, speed

freak. I consider myself a non-drinker who also doesn't use drugs.

As to the length of your post. Post as long as you fucking want to. If

someone doesn't want to finish it, they don't have to. I enjoyed your post.

Good luck to you.

[Guest guest]

> Greetings to all on the List.

>

> I am new to this list, obviously, and feel like a proper

introduction is in

> order. This message gets long. Most of what I have to say is

experiential

> rather than theoretical and I felt a fair amount of background was

> necessary. I hope that if I have exceeded any message length

etiquette that

> this will be regarded as a onetime offense.

>

>>

> s

Hi ,

Welcome - I'm netty.

Left, disappeared, crawled away from AA six months ago.

Appreciate your intro.

[Guest guest]

At 02:19 PM 8/1/01 -0500, s wrote:

>Greetings to all on the List.

>I am a former member of AA.

Me too, welcome.

>So, anyway back to my book idea. Well, I decided to research this idea a

>little and stopped dead in my tracks when I got on the Internet to see if

>anyone had organized any such people and found this list as well as some

>various publications. So for now I have abandoned the book idea.

I'm of course glad you found all this, but I'm disappointed that

you're not following up on the book idea. I do hope you eventually do

so. There are not that many books out there that directly challenge

the AA dogma, and I feel each new one on the " recovery " shelves of

bookstores can make a difference. There are far too many books on " How

to Really And Truly Work The Twelve Steps " , and too few on why you're

better off not doing so.

>I am very

>happy to see that there are a lot of other people who share a distaste for

>things AA - who have given some serious thought to the problems of

>alcoholism and drug addiction and care enough to share their thoughts. I

>also started to feel a need to again reexamine my experience in AA and my

>experience with alcohol and drugs. I tried to accept the brainwashing AA

>offered. It never took, and I was always arguing these things with my

>sponsor.

It " took " for me my first couple of years, I went to daily meetings,

then it started to fade as I started asking serious questions. I found

only more slogans in AA, and real answers in " outside literature " , mostly

various books in the library, many of them on cults (many of which

mention AA by name).

What books have you read, or at least what titles have you seen so

far? I've probably read 100-200 recovery-related books (probably a small

fraction of such books published), and maybe one or two dozen that are

" recovery-questioning " (I've read probably MOST such books).

One of the most enlightning books I read had nothing to do with AA

and little to do with cults (I suppose one could argue that the field of

parapsychology is a cult). It's " The Adventures of a Parapsychologist "

by Blackmore, in which she describes looking for evidence for ESP,

which she very much wanted to find, but after many trials and writing a

PHD thesis on it, she found no hard evidence for it. What was amusing

was the claims of evidence from other researchers she knew, claims she

was able to explain away when close scrutiny found problems with their

procedures/experiments.

I found the parallel between beliefs in ESP and the beliefs I had

(but were fading fast) from AA (about God, the steps, going to meetings,

and how not drinking is 'contingent' on all these things) to be

remarkable.

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

--- In 12-step-free@y..., " s " <no_never_met_him@h...>

Dear ,

I have read your post here. I think you *should* write your book!

It is very disconcerting, is it not, to encounter ideas you thought

were extremely strange, only to find people who have been struggling

with the same issues. (PS: I am talking about myself here)!

The hard part comes when it seems redundant. In part, that is true.

But there *is* another perspective. One that you can find and that

will resonate with other people.

People need to hear that the steps are not the only solution. And you

can help them.

[Guest guest]

Welcome, s

And thanks for your eloquent and insightful account of your

experiences. I look forward to more of the same.

Regards,