Re: Nature vs nurture

[Guest guest]

>Did anyone see the Horizon programme tonight about gender and nature versus

>nurture (BBC2)....whether a boy/girl is born or made?

I didn't see it but this pm I had a friend and her son round. He and

Steffi are both 4yo. He played with cars, trains, planes on the playmat

whilst Steffi cooked lunch in the tent for her baby.....!!!!

--

Sue

[Guest guest]

My DS2 is studying Psychology at uni, at the moment, so he found it

fascinating, too! He's already told me that DD2's bad behaviour is down to

bad parenting. Its amazing the insight just one term of lectures can give

you, LOL!

Lesley

------------------

phine said....Did anyone see the Horizon programme tonight about gender

and nature versus

nurture (BBC2)...

[Guest guest]

Emma was playing Mummies and Daddies with her friend yesterday. Emma was the

Daddy and slept all the time, Mummy was in the kitchen making cookies. Hmm is

this indicative of our life - I think not! although Simon does go to bed a lot

as he works shifts.

Sue H.

[Guest guest]

>Did anyone see the Horizon programme tonight about gender and nature versus

>nurture (BBC2)....whether a boy/girl is born or made

I just caught the tail end of it. How was it that the boy, was

brought up as ?

Lynda

SAHM to (7), (5), Fraser (3), Callum (15/5/00)

Newsletter editor, Mid-Northumberland Branch

new photos at

http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=762789 & a=10356893

[Guest guest]

> My DS2 ...........already told me that DD2's bad behaviour is down to

> bad parenting. Its amazing the insight just one term of lectures can give

> you, LOL!

> Lesley

So you can be smug when you are a granny, hey, Lesley!!

(No nead of the Tesco leaflet 'how to be a grandparent' for you)

Barbara

[Guest guest]

> Did anyone see the Horizon programme tonight about gender and nature

versus

> nurture (BBC2)....whether a boy/girl is born or made? Absolutely

> fascinating. I guess I found it particularly fascinating since as a

> Psychology student (15 years ago) I decided that how they were brought up

> was the most influential thing in making a child *behave* as a boy or

girl.

> Now as a mother (with two boys) I am convinced it is innate.

Yep - I saw it; definitely fascinating and I too did a Psychology degree (13

years ago)

I suppose I have always been sided with the nature hypothesis especially

from all the separated twin studies done on the subject. I don't think you

can change your genetic makeup although you can influence it greatly due to

the environment you are brought up in.

I think how much I am like my father although my parents split when I was

8yrs (I lived with mum many miles away) But then there is the " give me a

child until he is seven " theory.

I guess the debate will go on and on

I too have a boy and they are definitely different to girls even from an

early age. You wonder whether the " scientists " on the programme had children

of there own???

[Guest guest]

> >Did anyone see the Horizon programme tonight about gender and nature

versus

> >nurture (BBC2)....whether a boy/girl is born or made

>

> I just caught the tail end of it. How was it that the boy, was

> brought up as ?

>

was born Bruce but he had a bungled circumcision (at about 6 months?)

They burnt off his penis!

He became at 22 months after his mum saw Doctor Holly on TV and

thought this was the best answer for a boy without a penis. (theory -

children are neutral genderwise and can be brought up either way!)

As the child's life was hell - he was finally told of the " change " in

his teens? and decided to live as a boy straight away -he has since had

reconstructive surgery.

No mention as to what they have done with the birth certificate, as I think

he was certified female as an infant!!

Hmmmm

[Guest guest]

I saw some of this programme.

I have a DD as well as 3 DSs.

I am not conscience of doing anything different with them, but she is very

different to the boys. They are very active, not sitting still for long always

on the go, but she is more sedate and although loves riding her bike, climbing

etc, she will sit for ages and watch something or do drawings when the boys are

more restless.

Mc

SAHM 6, Olivia 3, 2, 15/3/00

Nearly Ex-Editor Wallingford and District

[Guest guest]

I saw some of this programme.

I have a DD as well as 3 DSs.

I am not conscience of doing anything different with them, but she is very

different to the boys. They are very active, not sitting still for long always

on the go, but she is more sedate and although loves riding her bike, climbing

etc, she will sit for ages and watch something or do drawings when the boys are

more restless.

Mc

SAHM 6, Olivia 3, 2, 15/3/00

Nearly Ex-Editor Wallingford and District

[Guest guest]

Lesley wrote>>My DS2 is studying Psychology at uni, at the moment, so he found

it

fascinating, too! He's already told me that DD2's bad behaviour is down to

bad parenting. <<

So does he think your parenting skills have decayed over the years or was he

just perfect to begin with?

Mc

SAHM 6, Olivia 3, 2, 15/3/00

Nearly Ex-Editor Wallingford and District

[Guest guest]

Lesley wrote>>My DS2 is studying Psychology at uni, at the moment, so he found

it

fascinating, too! He's already told me that DD2's bad behaviour is down to

bad parenting. <<

So does he think your parenting skills have decayed over the years or was he

just perfect to begin with?

Mc

SAHM 6, Olivia 3, 2, 15/3/00

Nearly Ex-Editor Wallingford and District

[Guest guest]

Yes! It was amazing! I was clearing up from supper at the

beginning and Dh was babbling about computers, so I missed

why they even did the gender change operation on poor

//. Can you fill me in?

Phyllis

>Did anyone see the Horizon programme tonight about gender

>and nature versus

>nurture (BBC2)....whether a boy/girl is born or made?

>phine

>(Mum to 3 & Ben 2, Cambridge NCT)

__________________________________________________

[Guest guest]

Lynda, Phyllis..... has already answered why the op took place, horrid

isn't it, I don't suppose it would happen now. Then they thought that there

could be nothing worse than a boy with no penis (as reconstructive surgery

wasn't an option).

The other thing in the programme that horrified me was that the doctor

followed up the " experiment " for only a few years and claimed it was a great

success. The family refused to see the doctor after some years, so no one

investigated what happened when the child reached puberty (, previously

, said he would rather slit his throat than go back to that time in

his life) and it was assumed that the operation had been

successful....thereby influencing 15 years of gender research (and

Psychology teaching!)

Also, despite finding out more recently that the child had serious problems

the doctor still did not acknowledge that something in the brain might

affect boy vs girl-ness.....he published some paper, to say that the

" experiment " had not been 100% successful because of other *nurture*

factors....being brought up with a twin brother....lifestyle etc.

I think that nurture and socilaisation are increadibly powerful influences,

but it seems crazy to deny that " what you are born with " has something to do

with it too. Like you said ....did any of the researchers actually

have children??

phine

(Mum to 3 & Ben 2, Cambridge NCT)

[Guest guest]

> was born Bruce but he had a bungled circumcision (at about 6 months?)

>They burnt off his penis!

>He became at 22 months after his mum saw Doctor Holly on TV and

>thought this was the best answer for a boy without a penis. (theory -

>children are neutral genderwise and can be brought up either way!)

>As the child's life was hell - he was finally told of the " change "

in

>his teens? and decided to live as a boy straight away -he has since had

>reconstructive surgery.

>No mention as to what they have done with the birth certificate, as I think

>he was certified female as an infant!!

OMG, how awful. The bit I saw at the end showed him married to a woman so

his birth certificate must have been as a male.

Lynda

[Guest guest]

Lesley wrote>>My DS2 is studying Psychology at uni, at the moment, so he

found it

fascinating, too! He's already told me that DD2's bad behaviour is down to

bad parenting. <<

Mc said.......So does he think your parenting skills have decayed over

the years or was he just perfect to begin with?

---------------

ROFL!!! DS2 thinks we let her get away with murder, but we don't...at

least, I don't think so. She's just a more challenging child! As for being

perfect, DS1 thinks that we should have stopped at one child, seeing as DH

and I had got it right first time!

Lesley

[Guest guest]

Lesley wrote>>My DS2 is studying Psychology at uni, at the moment, so he

found it

fascinating, too! He's already told me that DD2's bad behaviour is down to

bad parenting. <<

Mc said.......So does he think your parenting skills have decayed over

the years or was he just perfect to begin with?

---------------

ROFL!!! DS2 thinks we let her get away with murder, but we don't...at

least, I don't think so. She's just a more challenging child! As for being

perfect, DS1 thinks that we should have stopped at one child, seeing as DH

and I had got it right first time!

Lesley

[Guest guest]

> My DS2 ...........already told me that DD2's bad behaviour is down to

> bad parenting. Its amazing the insight just one term of lectures can give

> you, LOL!

> Lesley

Barbara said....So you can be smug when you are a granny, hey, Lesley!!

(No nead of the Tesco leaflet 'how to be a grandparent' for you)

-----------------

Nope! Bit depressing, though, to see that the Red House Book Club sells a

book about celebrating Christmas in Granny's day - The 1940's and 50's!!!

Lesley

[Guest guest]

> My DS2 ...........already told me that DD2's bad behaviour is down to

> bad parenting. Its amazing the insight just one term of lectures can give

> you, LOL!

> Lesley

Barbara said....So you can be smug when you are a granny, hey, Lesley!!

(No nead of the Tesco leaflet 'how to be a grandparent' for you)

-----------------

Nope! Bit depressing, though, to see that the Red House Book Club sells a

book about celebrating Christmas in Granny's day - The 1940's and 50's!!!

Lesley

[Guest guest]

In message <NEBBJFKNEPBBECAJIAHPAEEDCKAA.peterlesley@...

o.uk>, Pete & Lesley Reader writes

>My DS2 is studying Psychology at uni, at the moment, so he

>found it

>fascinating, too! He's already told me that DD2's bad behaviour is down to

>bad parenting. <<

Tell him to have a look at Piaget - mostly learning styles, but one of

his theories is that a lack of conflict is a sign of emotional

immaturity on the part of the child. he also says that good parenting

is occurring where a child feels able to 'rebel' (shows self confidence

and a supportive background).

Have to say I don't agree with a lot of Piaget on the 'educational

readiness' side of things (the section of his work most often studied

and quoted - usually to support single age classes and streaming,

although later he did more work and decided that this was not a good

thing after all which most ed. psyc. lecturers in ITT ignore); but the

emotional maturity stuff does make some sense. There are other psycs

who take the same (or similar) view points, but they escape me ATM.

--

Helen Armfield

[Guest guest]

>

>Subject: Nature vs nurture

> I guess I found it particularly fascinating since as a

>Psychology student (15 years ago) I decided that how they >were brought up

>was the most influential thing in making a child *behave* as >a boy or

girl.

>Now as a mother (with two boys) I am convinced it is >innate.

The University of Minnesota has a psychology Department that has a programme

running all about Nature vs Nurture, it's a twin study, that's how I know

about it, and they have studied all the pairs of twins in the world alive

today who were raised apart to see if Nature (genetics) influenced who you

were of Nurture (your upbringing and environment) evidence is hugely in

favour of Nature, it's all pre programmed in our genetic make up. Not only

have they studied twins raised apart but also same aged siblings, siblings

who aren't genetically related but whom are raised by the same parents in

the same environment, such as a couple who have a birth child and adopt.

Segal who works with Tom Bouchard the director of the Minnesota Centre

for twin and adoption research has recently written a book called Entwined

lives-twins and what they tell us about human behaviour, I'm reading it at

the moment and it's fascinating. The most amazing story in it has to be the

'Jim' twins. They were identical twins separated at birth and met for the

first time as adults, the similarities in the 'paths' each chose in life was

amazing. Each Jim had been married twice, both of their first wives were

called , and both of their second wives named Betty! One called his son

Allan, the other Allan . As children they both had a dog named

Toy. Each worked part time as a sheriff. Both smoked Salem cigarettes. Both

scattered love notes around the house to their wives. And both had the same

headache syndrome, a tension/migraine disorder. It's amazing to thing that

the smallest choices and preferences we make in our lives from the names of

our pets to our career our already preset in our genetic make-up. So lets

not beat ourselves up over bad choices in parenting styles anymore...lol

Mum of 9 to...

Rhys (12), Jayden (11), Tessa (9), Tyler (7),

Paige (6), Grace (4), Zachary (3), Rose and Amelia (14mths)

[Guest guest]

Subject: Re: Nature vs nurture

>Have to say I don't agree with a lot of Piaget on the >'educational

>readiness' side of things (the section of his work most often >studied

>and quoted - usually to support single age classes and >streaming,

>although later he did more work and decided that this was >not a good

>thing after all which most ed. psyc. lecturers in ITT ignore); >but the

>emotional maturity stuff does make some sense. There are >other psycs

>who take the same (or similar) view points, but they escape >me ATM.

I think the major critique of Piaget is that he mainly studied his own three

children and used these observations to base a lot of his theories on. It

appears his children were particularly compliant and 'good' which skews that

research for those of us with 'pain in the arse' children :-)

Piaget was the stages not ages guy, he said children move through four

primary stages of cognitive thought, Sensorimotor, preoperational, concrete

operational and formal operations. He's also the schema guy, which I am very

into, I spend my hours at playcentre schema spotting it's fascinating!

A lot of Piagets theories are based on the child being an individual

scientist, they take from the environment what they need to learn, and we as

Adults just set it up for them, we have little impact on how the child

learns.

Vygotsky however says a childs learning is dependent upon social

interactions, he is the 'zone of proximal development' guy...lol, that a

child will learn so much from something on his own but working with someone

more capable the child has this capacity to learn so much more. I tend

towards this theory more, as any mother will testify subsequent siblings

learn so much faster because they pick it up from the older ones by

observation, good and bad :-)

Mum of 9 to...

Rhys (12), Jayden (11), Tessa (9), Tyler (7),

Paige (6), Grace (4), Zachary (3), Rose and Amelia (14mths)

[Guest guest]

> Tell him to have a look at Piaget -

You have just made me realise how much my Psychology degree was lacking. I

wanted to study psychology for the child development aspect, but the

lecturer retired (due to hearing loss) at the end of my 1st year and they

didn't replace her and lopped off the child development section as a result.

I managed to do my project on colour recognition in children but really

didn't have the right support. Oh well.

Can anyone name the 11 basic colour in our language?

Only the Russians have one more in their language and

remarkably some forest tribes only have 2, light and dark!

Christmas Quiz with a difference

[Guest guest]

Then we have Bruner (he's the scaffolding guy), who says by giving children

the support and ideas they will develop through their play. Basically

children need good first hand experiences in the environment so that they

can concrete them in their play.

helen

(studing to do the Montessori earlychidhood teaching diploma - and just

written her essay on play and development!)

Re: Nature vs nurture

>

>

> >Have to say I don't agree with a lot of Piaget on the >'educational

> >readiness' side of things (the section of his work most often >studied

> >and quoted - usually to support single age classes and >streaming,

> >although later he did more work and decided that this was >not a good

> >thing after all which most ed. psyc. lecturers in ITT ignore); >but the

> >emotional maturity stuff does make some sense. There are >other psycs

> >who take the same (or similar) view points, but they escape >me ATM.

>

> I think the major critique of Piaget is that he mainly studied his own

three

> children and used these observations to base a lot of his theories on. It

> appears his children were particularly compliant and 'good' which skews

that

> research for those of us with 'pain in the arse' children :-)

> Piaget was the stages not ages guy, he said children move through four

> primary stages of cognitive thought, Sensorimotor, preoperational,

concrete

> operational and formal operations. He's also the schema guy, which I am

very

> into, I spend my hours at playcentre schema spotting it's fascinating!

> A lot of Piagets theories are based on the child being an individual

> scientist, they take from the environment what they need to learn, and we

as

> Adults just set it up for them, we have little impact on how the child

> learns.

> Vygotsky however says a childs learning is dependent upon social

> interactions, he is the 'zone of proximal development' guy...lol, that a

> child will learn so much from something on his own but working with

someone

> more capable the child has this capacity to learn so much more. I tend

> towards this theory more, as any mother will testify subsequent siblings

> learn so much faster because they pick it up from the older ones by

> observation, good and bad :-)

>

>

> Mum of 9 to...

> Rhys (12), Jayden (11), Tessa (9), Tyler (7),

> Paige (6), Grace (4), Zachary (3), Rose and Amelia (14mths)

>

>

>

> Live chat /chat/nct-coffee

>

> Have you found out about all the other groups for the NCT online?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Would you have a website for this, , as my DS2 is interested in it.

TIA

Lesley

-------------------

wrote....The University of Minnesota has a psychology Department that

has a programme

running all about Nature vs Nurture, it's a twin study,

[Guest guest]

Would you have a website for this, , as my DS2 is interested in it.

TIA

Lesley

-------------------

wrote....The University of Minnesota has a psychology Department that

has a programme

running all about Nature vs Nurture, it's a twin study,