Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 Hi Latina -- You may be more " brainwashed " than you think you are. You write that you are " late stage " alcoholic, but since you are only 26 with 4 years of sobreity--one outside AA and three with AA, that is highly unlikely. " Late stage alcoholism " involves not only physical dependence, but also the serious consequences of long-term over- drinking in liver and brain damage. In the 12 STEPS AND 12 TRADITIONS, Bill writes that AA is attracting young people who are scarcely more than " potential alcoholics, " but once exposed to AA, they will never be the same. Told that they are powerless over alcohol, they will, he explains, return someday even if they don't get it now. In fact, studies have shown that there is no real relationship between youthful binge drinking and later alcoholism. The vast majority of those who drink excessively and irresponsibly in their youth " mature out " to abstinence or moderation without the help of any program or treatment. So, the first thing to be said is that you may not be a " true alcoholic " at all. You should take a careful look at the criteria for alcohol and dependence to see if you ever really qualified. The second thing is that AA is not the only hope for " true alcoholic. " Dr. Vaillant, a public board member of AA, has conducted research which shows that the rate of recovery in treatment is not significantly better than the natural, spontaneous rate of recovery without treatment. A very interesting chart on page 253 of his THE NATURAL HISTORY OF ALCOHOLISM REVISTED shows that AA was a factor in only 27 percent of those who achieved stable abstinence (among a long-term sample of Boston men). Here's another way of judging AA's success. AA claims a membership of about one milllion in the US (not all of them sober of course). About ten percent of US adults are considered to be alcohol abusers or dependent in a given year, while 23.5 percent fall into those categories sometime in their lifetime. With 140 million adults in the US, that means 18 million ex-problem drinkers (32 million at some time MINUS 14 million current). That means many more have quit without AA than with AA. I think there may be some LifeRing Sobreity groups in Washington state. Check their website at www.unhooked.com In 12-step-freeegroups, jennifer_201@h... wrote: > Hey its again I left a message yesterday that I am really > scared. Well I have to say I feel so much better. Thankyou. To > identify myself (because I guess there are a couple s on > here) Ill go by Latina . Im half hispanic. Anyway, where > are all you people located? Im in conservative spokane washington. > I think its totally lame here. And its already conservative so > imagine what AA is like here. Very very patriarchal. I dont know > those people have hurt me so much and Im very angry. Im so anxious > tjo talk to people with my mindset although I wish it was in person. > I do have one question (Im still a little brainwashed frome AA) I > know im an alcoholic, late stage at that, I mean Im 26 and have been > in 9 treatment centers and have been in and out of AA for 6 years. > Anyway do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic > (like myself) its the only thing that will work? I dont know I did > stay sober for a year w/o AA and another time I stayed sober for 3 > yeas with AA. Do any of you know the stats on AAs rate of sobriety? > Get back with your input and once again thanks, its so refreshing to > connect with people on the same page. Im so tired of debating with > people in AA, Latina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 Hi Latina -- You may be more " brainwashed " than you think you are. You write that you are " late stage " alcoholic, but since you are only 26 with 4 years of sobreity--one outside AA and three with AA, that is highly unlikely. " Late stage alcoholism " involves not only physical dependence, but also the serious consequences of long-term over- drinking in liver and brain damage. In the 12 STEPS AND 12 TRADITIONS, Bill writes that AA is attracting young people who are scarcely more than " potential alcoholics, " but once exposed to AA, they will never be the same. Told that they are powerless over alcohol, they will, he explains, return someday even if they don't get it now. In fact, studies have shown that there is no real relationship between youthful binge drinking and later alcoholism. The vast majority of those who drink excessively and irresponsibly in their youth " mature out " to abstinence or moderation without the help of any program or treatment. So, the first thing to be said is that you may not be a " true alcoholic " at all. You should take a careful look at the criteria for alcohol and dependence to see if you ever really qualified. The second thing is that AA is not the only hope for " true alcoholic. " Dr. Vaillant, a public board member of AA, has conducted research which shows that the rate of recovery in treatment is not significantly better than the natural, spontaneous rate of recovery without treatment. A very interesting chart on page 253 of his THE NATURAL HISTORY OF ALCOHOLISM REVISTED shows that AA was a factor in only 27 percent of those who achieved stable abstinence (among a long-term sample of Boston men). Here's another way of judging AA's success. AA claims a membership of about one milllion in the US (not all of them sober of course). About ten percent of US adults are considered to be alcohol abusers or dependent in a given year, while 23.5 percent fall into those categories sometime in their lifetime. With 140 million adults in the US, that means 18 million ex-problem drinkers (32 million at some time MINUS 14 million current). That means many more have quit without AA than with AA. I think there may be some LifeRing Sobreity groups in Washington state. Check their website at www.unhooked.com In 12-step-freeegroups, jennifer_201@h... wrote: > Hey its again I left a message yesterday that I am really > scared. Well I have to say I feel so much better. Thankyou. To > identify myself (because I guess there are a couple s on > here) Ill go by Latina . Im half hispanic. Anyway, where > are all you people located? Im in conservative spokane washington. > I think its totally lame here. And its already conservative so > imagine what AA is like here. Very very patriarchal. I dont know > those people have hurt me so much and Im very angry. Im so anxious > tjo talk to people with my mindset although I wish it was in person. > I do have one question (Im still a little brainwashed frome AA) I > know im an alcoholic, late stage at that, I mean Im 26 and have been > in 9 treatment centers and have been in and out of AA for 6 years. > Anyway do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic > (like myself) its the only thing that will work? I dont know I did > stay sober for a year w/o AA and another time I stayed sober for 3 > yeas with AA. Do any of you know the stats on AAs rate of sobriety? > Get back with your input and once again thanks, its so refreshing to > connect with people on the same page. Im so tired of debating with > people in AA, Latina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 Hi Latina -- You may be more " brainwashed " than you think you are. You write that you are " late stage " alcoholic, but since you are only 26 with 4 years of sobreity--one outside AA and three with AA, that is highly unlikely. " Late stage alcoholism " involves not only physical dependence, but also the serious consequences of long-term over- drinking in liver and brain damage. In the 12 STEPS AND 12 TRADITIONS, Bill writes that AA is attracting young people who are scarcely more than " potential alcoholics, " but once exposed to AA, they will never be the same. Told that they are powerless over alcohol, they will, he explains, return someday even if they don't get it now. In fact, studies have shown that there is no real relationship between youthful binge drinking and later alcoholism. The vast majority of those who drink excessively and irresponsibly in their youth " mature out " to abstinence or moderation without the help of any program or treatment. So, the first thing to be said is that you may not be a " true alcoholic " at all. You should take a careful look at the criteria for alcohol and dependence to see if you ever really qualified. The second thing is that AA is not the only hope for " true alcoholic. " Dr. Vaillant, a public board member of AA, has conducted research which shows that the rate of recovery in treatment is not significantly better than the natural, spontaneous rate of recovery without treatment. A very interesting chart on page 253 of his THE NATURAL HISTORY OF ALCOHOLISM REVISTED shows that AA was a factor in only 27 percent of those who achieved stable abstinence (among a long-term sample of Boston men). Here's another way of judging AA's success. AA claims a membership of about one milllion in the US (not all of them sober of course). About ten percent of US adults are considered to be alcohol abusers or dependent in a given year, while 23.5 percent fall into those categories sometime in their lifetime. With 140 million adults in the US, that means 18 million ex-problem drinkers (32 million at some time MINUS 14 million current). That means many more have quit without AA than with AA. I think there may be some LifeRing Sobreity groups in Washington state. Check their website at www.unhooked.com In 12-step-freeegroups, jennifer_201@h... wrote: > Hey its again I left a message yesterday that I am really > scared. Well I have to say I feel so much better. Thankyou. To > identify myself (because I guess there are a couple s on > here) Ill go by Latina . Im half hispanic. Anyway, where > are all you people located? Im in conservative spokane washington. > I think its totally lame here. And its already conservative so > imagine what AA is like here. Very very patriarchal. I dont know > those people have hurt me so much and Im very angry. Im so anxious > tjo talk to people with my mindset although I wish it was in person. > I do have one question (Im still a little brainwashed frome AA) I > know im an alcoholic, late stage at that, I mean Im 26 and have been > in 9 treatment centers and have been in and out of AA for 6 years. > Anyway do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic > (like myself) its the only thing that will work? I dont know I did > stay sober for a year w/o AA and another time I stayed sober for 3 > yeas with AA. Do any of you know the stats on AAs rate of sobriety? > Get back with your input and once again thanks, its so refreshing to > connect with people on the same page. Im so tired of debating with > people in AA, Latina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 Hi , Re AA sobriety rate: we know (from an AA survey done in '87) that if 100 people go to their first AA meeting only 5 will still be going a year later. We also know that in the US 1-2 million people go through treatment every year, and virtually all of them are told to go to AA, and yet AA membership is about 1 million, as opposed to the at least 20 million it would have if it worked for everybody. We know that folks have been trying to prove that AA 'works' for 65 years without success, and that the stats suggest that 12-step treatment has absolutely NO effect on recovery rates. AA is made of of people who just happen to like being part of a funny little cult, and some of them also happen to have quit drinking. Any cause-and-effect connection between AA and sobriety remains sheer speculation. Like you, I bounced around in AA and treatment for years. The turning point came when I realized that alcohol was not my main problem, AA was! When I 'defiantly' stopped believing that I was powerless, that I had a disease, that I couldn't 'recover' without a 'spiritual awakening,' when I determined that I was simply going to use whatever I needed, especially will power, to NOT DRINK, it wasn't so difficult after all! Re " late-stage alcoholism " : first of all, it turns out that heavy drinking is not a disease, especially not a " progressive " one, so " late-stage " is a mythological condition. Second, everybody I ever met who drank like a crazy person had already been to treatment. This includes me (and a large number of other people too.) Think it over: by any chance did your drinking get a lot worse after you went to treatment? Re " do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic (like myself) its the only thing that will work? " No, I think that the only way to become a true alcoholic is to join AA. And the only way to " recover " is to leave AA. Anyhow, best wishes, good luck, welcome, and all that. You can do it! No kidding! --wally thanks > Hey its again I left a message yesterday that I am really > scared. Well I have to say I feel so much better. Thankyou. To > identify myself (because I guess there are a couple s on > here) Ill go by Latina . Im half hispanic. Anyway, where > are all you people located? Im in conservative spokane washington. > I think its totally lame here. And its already conservative so > imagine what AA is like here. Very very patriarchal. I dont know > those people have hurt me so much and Im very angry. Im so anxious > tjo talk to people with my mindset although I wish it was in person. > I do have one question (Im still a little brainwashed frome AA) I > know im an alcoholic, late stage at that, I mean Im 26 and have been > in 9 treatment centers and have been in and out of AA for 6 years. > Anyway do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic > (like myself) its the only thing that will work? I dont know I did > stay sober for a year w/o AA and another time I stayed sober for 3 > yeas with AA. Do any of you know the stats on AAs rate of sobriety? > Get back with your input and once again thanks, its so refreshing to > connect with people on the same page. Im so tired of debating with > people in AA, Latina > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 Hi , Re AA sobriety rate: we know (from an AA survey done in '87) that if 100 people go to their first AA meeting only 5 will still be going a year later. We also know that in the US 1-2 million people go through treatment every year, and virtually all of them are told to go to AA, and yet AA membership is about 1 million, as opposed to the at least 20 million it would have if it worked for everybody. We know that folks have been trying to prove that AA 'works' for 65 years without success, and that the stats suggest that 12-step treatment has absolutely NO effect on recovery rates. AA is made of of people who just happen to like being part of a funny little cult, and some of them also happen to have quit drinking. Any cause-and-effect connection between AA and sobriety remains sheer speculation. Like you, I bounced around in AA and treatment for years. The turning point came when I realized that alcohol was not my main problem, AA was! When I 'defiantly' stopped believing that I was powerless, that I had a disease, that I couldn't 'recover' without a 'spiritual awakening,' when I determined that I was simply going to use whatever I needed, especially will power, to NOT DRINK, it wasn't so difficult after all! Re " late-stage alcoholism " : first of all, it turns out that heavy drinking is not a disease, especially not a " progressive " one, so " late-stage " is a mythological condition. Second, everybody I ever met who drank like a crazy person had already been to treatment. This includes me (and a large number of other people too.) Think it over: by any chance did your drinking get a lot worse after you went to treatment? Re " do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic (like myself) its the only thing that will work? " No, I think that the only way to become a true alcoholic is to join AA. And the only way to " recover " is to leave AA. Anyhow, best wishes, good luck, welcome, and all that. You can do it! No kidding! --wally thanks > Hey its again I left a message yesterday that I am really > scared. Well I have to say I feel so much better. Thankyou. To > identify myself (because I guess there are a couple s on > here) Ill go by Latina . Im half hispanic. Anyway, where > are all you people located? Im in conservative spokane washington. > I think its totally lame here. And its already conservative so > imagine what AA is like here. Very very patriarchal. I dont know > those people have hurt me so much and Im very angry. Im so anxious > tjo talk to people with my mindset although I wish it was in person. > I do have one question (Im still a little brainwashed frome AA) I > know im an alcoholic, late stage at that, I mean Im 26 and have been > in 9 treatment centers and have been in and out of AA for 6 years. > Anyway do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic > (like myself) its the only thing that will work? I dont know I did > stay sober for a year w/o AA and another time I stayed sober for 3 > yeas with AA. Do any of you know the stats on AAs rate of sobriety? > Get back with your input and once again thanks, its so refreshing to > connect with people on the same page. Im so tired of debating with > people in AA, Latina > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 Hi , Re AA sobriety rate: we know (from an AA survey done in '87) that if 100 people go to their first AA meeting only 5 will still be going a year later. We also know that in the US 1-2 million people go through treatment every year, and virtually all of them are told to go to AA, and yet AA membership is about 1 million, as opposed to the at least 20 million it would have if it worked for everybody. We know that folks have been trying to prove that AA 'works' for 65 years without success, and that the stats suggest that 12-step treatment has absolutely NO effect on recovery rates. AA is made of of people who just happen to like being part of a funny little cult, and some of them also happen to have quit drinking. Any cause-and-effect connection between AA and sobriety remains sheer speculation. Like you, I bounced around in AA and treatment for years. The turning point came when I realized that alcohol was not my main problem, AA was! When I 'defiantly' stopped believing that I was powerless, that I had a disease, that I couldn't 'recover' without a 'spiritual awakening,' when I determined that I was simply going to use whatever I needed, especially will power, to NOT DRINK, it wasn't so difficult after all! Re " late-stage alcoholism " : first of all, it turns out that heavy drinking is not a disease, especially not a " progressive " one, so " late-stage " is a mythological condition. Second, everybody I ever met who drank like a crazy person had already been to treatment. This includes me (and a large number of other people too.) Think it over: by any chance did your drinking get a lot worse after you went to treatment? Re " do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic (like myself) its the only thing that will work? " No, I think that the only way to become a true alcoholic is to join AA. And the only way to " recover " is to leave AA. Anyhow, best wishes, good luck, welcome, and all that. You can do it! No kidding! --wally thanks > Hey its again I left a message yesterday that I am really > scared. Well I have to say I feel so much better. Thankyou. To > identify myself (because I guess there are a couple s on > here) Ill go by Latina . Im half hispanic. Anyway, where > are all you people located? Im in conservative spokane washington. > I think its totally lame here. And its already conservative so > imagine what AA is like here. Very very patriarchal. I dont know > those people have hurt me so much and Im very angry. Im so anxious > tjo talk to people with my mindset although I wish it was in person. > I do have one question (Im still a little brainwashed frome AA) I > know im an alcoholic, late stage at that, I mean Im 26 and have been > in 9 treatment centers and have been in and out of AA for 6 years. > Anyway do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic > (like myself) its the only thing that will work? I dont know I did > stay sober for a year w/o AA and another time I stayed sober for 3 > yeas with AA. Do any of you know the stats on AAs rate of sobriety? > Get back with your input and once again thanks, its so refreshing to > connect with people on the same page. Im so tired of debating with > people in AA, Latina > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 Initially when I read this I thought to myself " very humorous " but at the same time it's a very important distinction and I'm glad you made it. > Re: thanks > and some of them also happen to have quit drinking. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 Initially when I read this I thought to myself " very humorous " but at the same time it's a very important distinction and I'm glad you made it. > Re: thanks > and some of them also happen to have quit drinking. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 Initially when I read this I thought to myself " very humorous " but at the same time it's a very important distinction and I'm glad you made it. > Re: thanks > and some of them also happen to have quit drinking. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 Hi its Latina , Well in response to Stuarts mail, believe me I wish I wasnt an alcoholic but the facts are this: I started drinking at age 11 about the second time I drank I blacked out. Every time I dring I blackout. I have had 3 DUIs, (all of them invoving accidents), I could have died in the last one but because I was so drunk I was relaxed (my blood alcohol level was .26) Ive been in 9 treatments centers, and once I start drinking I do some crazy things to get more because the stores around here close at 2am. I would do anything not to be an alcoholic. I know the patriarchal program of AA wont work but I am afraid to drink again because it seems whenever I get the desire I always give in. I think you may have misunderstood but I did stay sober w/o AA for 1 year. And w/for 3. Thats a total of 4 years since I was 11, so Ive been drinking for 12 years. I hate being a drunk. I do the most embarrasing crazy things when Im drunk. I may not be late stage but I know I cant sleep, eat , anything for about 3 days after I drink because Im in so much physical pain not to mention the humiliation of what I did and not knowing what I did. It takes me about a week to feel normal again. Tahnks for your stats. I appreciate it. I just dont wnat to go through all that pain anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 Wally, Right on!!! I love what you said. I think the more I continue focusing on this alcohol problem I have the bigger it gets. Im SOOO happy Ive finally found some real support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 > Anyway, where > are all you people located? Im in conservative spokane washington. > I think its totally lame here. And its already conservative so > imagine what AA is like here. Very very patriarchal. I know the feeling. I live in Galena, IL (pop. 3500). The stepper community here is a very insular small town inside an already small town. The classic AA stereotype of bitter old men drinking crappy coffee in a smoke-filled church basement is the reality here. > I dont know > those people have hurt me so much and Im very angry. Im so anxious > tjo talk to people with my mindset although I wish it was in person. > I do have one question (Im still a little brainwashed frome AA) I > know im an alcoholic, late stage at that, I mean Im 26 and have been > in 9 treatment centers and have been in and out of AA for 6 years. > Anyway do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic > (like myself) its the only thing that will work? No, I don't think that it's the only thing that works. Many here will say that it doesn't work, period. It's all a part of the AA brainwashing -- the steppers want you to believe that theirs is The One True Way. Hear it enough times and you start to believe it. Cults use that tactic to keep members from coming to an independent conclusion. The conclusion I came to, after a year in AA, was that continued attendance at 12 step meetings was actually hurting my chances of abstaining from mind-altering chemicals. It's been five years since my last meeting, and I've yet to experience jails, institutions, or (obviously death. Those that I know who still attend meetings seem to be stuck exactly where they were five years ago. There are alternatives. One of them is going it alone, having faith in yourself as an intelligent human being and knowing that you can do the right thing, whatever that might be for you. Another might be one of the many alternatives listed here: http://www.aahorror.net/Links.htm Best of luck with whatever you choose. Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 > Hey its again I left a message yesterday that I am really > scared. Well I have to say I feel so much better. Thankyou. To > identify myself (because I guess there are a couple s on > here) Ill go by Latina . Im half hispanic. Anyway, where > are all you people located? Im in conservative spokane washington. <laughs> Ohhhh, boy. " Conservative Spokane " is putting it--well, conservatively! I don't post very much anymore, but I do stop in and read messages here every few days or so. I'm over on the wet side of the Cascades-- in Bellingham. > I think its totally lame here. And its already conservative so > imagine what AA is like here. Very very patriarchal. I dont know > those people have hurt me so much and Im very angry. Im so anxious > tjo talk to people with my mindset although I wish it was in person. > I do have one question (Im still a little brainwashed frome AA) I > know im an alcoholic, late stage at that, I mean Im 26 and have been > in 9 treatment centers and have been in and out of AA for 6 years. <shakes head> You evidently *don't* want to destroy yourself with drink, if you've been willing to stay in and around AA and " treatment " for the last six years. That you're here looking for advice and encouragement is not something a truly self-destructive person would do. But obviously treatment and AA participation isn't working for you. There's a silly cliche'd saying in AA-- " Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results. " Continuing to go back to AA or into treatment, expecting that " it will work *this time*, " is insanity. That said, going back to rehab for a 10th stay would be insane, wouldn't it? You do have a problem, but obviously 12-step-oriented ways of dealing with it aren't helping. AA would like you to think that the failure is all your own doing, but it's horses##t. AA has failed *you*. Being a Latina in a milleu dominated by conservative White men doesn't help, either. You may not be able to find much in Spokane as far as face-to-face help, but there's a lot of people out on the Internet who would be glad to lend their support. > Anyway do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic > (like myself) its the only thing that will work? No. It didn't work for me, I left, and I'm still very much alive. I dont know I did > stay sober for a year w/o AA That shows that you are not doomed, not powerless or hopeless, and that you *do* have the inner resources to keep yourself from drinking, if you have to. You have more strength than you realize-- but AA is based on stripping you of power. and another time I stayed sober for 3 > yeas with AA. Do any of you know the stats on AAs rate of sobriety? Crappy, at best. I don't have solid numbers--I think those would be impossible to come by, really--but I sat in meetings for almost five years and noticed that lots of the people who got 30-day chips had disappeared by the time 6 months rolled around, and even more were gone by the time a year was up. If there's a big birthday meeting in Spokane, go and see how effective AA really is by counting how many people managed to " keep coming back " for more than five years. > Get back with your input and once again thanks, its so refreshing to > connect with people on the same page. Im so tired of debating with > people in AA, Latina There is no debating with people in AA--I don't know if you are religious or not, but it's the same thing as trying to debate with Jehovah's Witnesses. They have their book, just as AA does, and will use it to justify everything they believe. And if the book doesn't support their argument, they can always fall back on faith. AA isn't logical; it's completely based on *faith*. Don't waste your breath. Just get on with your life. There's a couple of books that you might find helpful. For a reasonable look at what alcoholism/addiction *really* is, and how to best deal with it, I found Stanton Peele's " The Truth About Addiction and Recovery " to be the best book on the subject. It literally saved my sanity as I was leaving AA. Charlotte Kasl's " Many Roads, One Journey " offers a 16-step program, but it's based on finding your own strengths and learning how to support yourself in sobriety. It's pretty non-dogmatic and allows you to use it as you see fit, if I recall correctly. As a last aside, I would like to point out that I think AA's " keeping score " on how long you've been abstinent from alcohol is very damaging. First of all, there are people who are sixty days sober who are waaaaay more together than people with 25 years or more. Second, when you do drink, you're kicked back down to the bottom of the stairs, again, back at Step One. What good does that do? It only makes you feel like dogshit--which you're not. You're just a person who is trying to get through life, and occasionally you stumble. Just try not to pull others down with you, and when you get up, try to have a better understanding of why you did stumble, rather than beating yourself up. I've got to get to the post office--I'll try to post more later. Cheers, . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 At 09:48 AM 1/19/01 -0000, jennifer_201@... wrote: >Hey its again I left a message yesterday that I am really >scared. Well I have to say I feel so much better. Thankyou. To >identify myself (because I guess there are a couple s on >here) Ill go by Latina . Im half hispanic. Anyway, where >are all you people located? Im in conservative spokane washington. I'm somewhere on the east coast (yes, I'm being intentionally vague) within listening distance of WBAI, which has to be the most liberal thing I've ever heard. I thought I knew liberal from attending a UU congregation in Atlanta, but they were mainly fighting those who were putting the Ten Commandments in courthouses. There are also many more bagel shops and deli's up here. >I think its totally lame here. And its already conservative so >imagine what AA is like here. Very very patriarchal. I dont know >those people have hurt me so much and Im very angry. It sounds just like AA in Atlanta. I'd be surprised if it were any different 'up here', but I haven't gone to a meeting. I was on a nationwide (US) 'recovery' forum for a few years, and I recall very little difference in meetings across the country. I'd heard in California that among all the little things to do (call your sponsor, go to meetings) was something called 'writing the steps', which meant writing an essay on the step you're on, and how it applies to you. But the mean-spiritedness of AA is everywhere. If you're familiar with newsgroups, check out alt.recovery.aa and see if it's not a lot like the meetings you've been to. I seriously doubt the region of the country you're in has much to do with how 'conservative', anal-retentive, or abusive meetings are. AA is truly a separate society. >Im so anxious >tjo talk to people with my mindset although I wish it was in person. >I do have one question (Im still a little brainwashed frome AA) I >know im an alcoholic, late stage at that, I mean Im 26 and have been >in 9 treatment centers and have been in and out of AA for 6 years. Just like millions of other people, you've done a lot of drinking. When I see you call yourself an alcoholic, I see you labeling yourself. I don't consider myself a cigarette or tobacco addict (or even a former addict), though I smoked for 17 years, and haven't smoked in the last seven years. Likewise, I don't call myself an alcoholic, even though I drank my way through my 20's, and spent much of my 30's in daily AA meetings, believing that I was " an alcoholic " . Today I'm not just sober, I'm abstinent. The correct definitions of these two words is in any dictionary, not in AA. >Anyway do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic >(like myself) its the only thing that will work? Look around for the definition of " true alcoholic. " Where is this defined outside of AA? >I dont know I did >stay sober for a year w/o AA You know what they say, that you weren't really " sober " , only " dry " . But " dry " is just another label. >and another time I stayed sober for 3 >yeas with AA. Do any of you know the stats on AAs rate of sobriety? There was the MATCH research report (or whatever it was) a few years ago, that if I remember right, said that AA is hardly any better or worse than other programs such as SOS, RR/SMART, or doing nothing at all. It was, as you might guess, quite controversial among AA's and the treatment center community. >Get back with your input and once again thanks, its so refreshing to >connect with people on the same page. Im so tired of debating with >people in AA, Latina If you want an alternative in-person group of people to talk to, you might try SOS. While not nearly as widespread as AA, they may have a meeting near you. While it's not the 'official purpose' of SOS to be a place to talk about bad AA experiences, such discussion often went on in the meetings I attended. <http://www.unhooked.com> ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 At 09:48 AM 1/19/01 -0000, jennifer_201@... wrote: >Hey its again I left a message yesterday that I am really >scared. Well I have to say I feel so much better. Thankyou. To >identify myself (because I guess there are a couple s on >here) Ill go by Latina . Im half hispanic. Anyway, where >are all you people located? Im in conservative spokane washington. I'm somewhere on the east coast (yes, I'm being intentionally vague) within listening distance of WBAI, which has to be the most liberal thing I've ever heard. I thought I knew liberal from attending a UU congregation in Atlanta, but they were mainly fighting those who were putting the Ten Commandments in courthouses. There are also many more bagel shops and deli's up here. >I think its totally lame here. And its already conservative so >imagine what AA is like here. Very very patriarchal. I dont know >those people have hurt me so much and Im very angry. It sounds just like AA in Atlanta. I'd be surprised if it were any different 'up here', but I haven't gone to a meeting. I was on a nationwide (US) 'recovery' forum for a few years, and I recall very little difference in meetings across the country. I'd heard in California that among all the little things to do (call your sponsor, go to meetings) was something called 'writing the steps', which meant writing an essay on the step you're on, and how it applies to you. But the mean-spiritedness of AA is everywhere. If you're familiar with newsgroups, check out alt.recovery.aa and see if it's not a lot like the meetings you've been to. I seriously doubt the region of the country you're in has much to do with how 'conservative', anal-retentive, or abusive meetings are. AA is truly a separate society. >Im so anxious >tjo talk to people with my mindset although I wish it was in person. >I do have one question (Im still a little brainwashed frome AA) I >know im an alcoholic, late stage at that, I mean Im 26 and have been >in 9 treatment centers and have been in and out of AA for 6 years. Just like millions of other people, you've done a lot of drinking. When I see you call yourself an alcoholic, I see you labeling yourself. I don't consider myself a cigarette or tobacco addict (or even a former addict), though I smoked for 17 years, and haven't smoked in the last seven years. Likewise, I don't call myself an alcoholic, even though I drank my way through my 20's, and spent much of my 30's in daily AA meetings, believing that I was " an alcoholic " . Today I'm not just sober, I'm abstinent. The correct definitions of these two words is in any dictionary, not in AA. >Anyway do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic >(like myself) its the only thing that will work? Look around for the definition of " true alcoholic. " Where is this defined outside of AA? >I dont know I did >stay sober for a year w/o AA You know what they say, that you weren't really " sober " , only " dry " . But " dry " is just another label. >and another time I stayed sober for 3 >yeas with AA. Do any of you know the stats on AAs rate of sobriety? There was the MATCH research report (or whatever it was) a few years ago, that if I remember right, said that AA is hardly any better or worse than other programs such as SOS, RR/SMART, or doing nothing at all. It was, as you might guess, quite controversial among AA's and the treatment center community. >Get back with your input and once again thanks, its so refreshing to >connect with people on the same page. Im so tired of debating with >people in AA, Latina If you want an alternative in-person group of people to talk to, you might try SOS. While not nearly as widespread as AA, they may have a meeting near you. While it's not the 'official purpose' of SOS to be a place to talk about bad AA experiences, such discussion often went on in the meetings I attended. <http://www.unhooked.com> ----- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 > Hey its again I left a message yesterday that I am really > scared. Well I have to say I feel so much better. Thankyou. To > identify myself (because I guess there are a couple s on > here) Ill go by Latina . Im half hispanic. Anyway, where > are all you people located? Southeast here..... Im in conservative spokane washington. > I think its totally lame here. And its already conservative so > imagine what AA is like here. Alot of holy rollers down here. Although thats the only difference. I hate to admit but I've been to meetings in over 25 states....sort tells you it took me a bit longer than you to get out, but I can assure you its the same old bullshit regardless. Trust me. Very very patriarchal. I dont know > those people have hurt me so much and Im very angry. Im so anxious > tjo talk to people with my mindset although I wish it was in person. > I do have one question (Im still a little brainwashed frome AA) Me too. I > know im an alcoholic, late stage at that, I mean Im 26 and have been > in 9 treatment centers and have been in and out of AA for 6 years. I always had doubts. Even in AA. Now I'm pretty sure I'm not an alcoholic. But I was definitely a problem drinker. I was sent to AA when I was 24. I did become sober in AA eventually. Stayed there for quite some time, I left because I started feeling worse when I went to meetings. The longer between meetings the better I felt. What I heard just didn't sit right with me. > Anyway do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic > (like myself) its the only thing that will work? I am not sure what a " true alcoholic is " I know I am definitely not one. I dont know I did > stay sober for a year w/o AA and another time I stayed sober for 3 > yeas with AA. I stayed sober with AA for a long time. I am still committed to being abstinent currently. I haven't had a drink in so long that I really don't miss it. Do any of you know the stats on AAs rate of sobriety? I'm sure folks here can answer your question better than I can. Most will say that it isn't better than any other recovery program or no program at all. Most people just stop drinking on there own. > Get back with your input and once again thanks, its so refreshing to > connect with people on the same page. I agree. I found this list a few months ago and it has been very helpful and insightful for me. I still have alot of AA conditioning in me. I'm sure that will take some time to dissipate. But the good thing about being here is you can draw your own conclusions based on facts. Thats what I like. No one threatens you or uses fear to persuade you to see things their way. Facts are presented in response to questions instead of those stupid AA slogans like " don't analyze utilize " or " don't ask why ask how " . Good Luck to you. Hope you find the answers you need. Pat Im so tired of debating with > people in AA, Latina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 > Hey its again I left a message yesterday that I am really > scared. Well I have to say I feel so much better. Thankyou. To > identify myself (because I guess there are a couple s on > here) Ill go by Latina . Im half hispanic. Anyway, where > are all you people located? Southeast here..... Im in conservative spokane washington. > I think its totally lame here. And its already conservative so > imagine what AA is like here. Alot of holy rollers down here. Although thats the only difference. I hate to admit but I've been to meetings in over 25 states....sort tells you it took me a bit longer than you to get out, but I can assure you its the same old bullshit regardless. Trust me. Very very patriarchal. I dont know > those people have hurt me so much and Im very angry. Im so anxious > tjo talk to people with my mindset although I wish it was in person. > I do have one question (Im still a little brainwashed frome AA) Me too. I > know im an alcoholic, late stage at that, I mean Im 26 and have been > in 9 treatment centers and have been in and out of AA for 6 years. I always had doubts. Even in AA. Now I'm pretty sure I'm not an alcoholic. But I was definitely a problem drinker. I was sent to AA when I was 24. I did become sober in AA eventually. Stayed there for quite some time, I left because I started feeling worse when I went to meetings. The longer between meetings the better I felt. What I heard just didn't sit right with me. > Anyway do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic > (like myself) its the only thing that will work? I am not sure what a " true alcoholic is " I know I am definitely not one. I dont know I did > stay sober for a year w/o AA and another time I stayed sober for 3 > yeas with AA. I stayed sober with AA for a long time. I am still committed to being abstinent currently. I haven't had a drink in so long that I really don't miss it. Do any of you know the stats on AAs rate of sobriety? I'm sure folks here can answer your question better than I can. Most will say that it isn't better than any other recovery program or no program at all. Most people just stop drinking on there own. > Get back with your input and once again thanks, its so refreshing to > connect with people on the same page. I agree. I found this list a few months ago and it has been very helpful and insightful for me. I still have alot of AA conditioning in me. I'm sure that will take some time to dissipate. But the good thing about being here is you can draw your own conclusions based on facts. Thats what I like. No one threatens you or uses fear to persuade you to see things their way. Facts are presented in response to questions instead of those stupid AA slogans like " don't analyze utilize " or " don't ask why ask how " . Good Luck to you. Hope you find the answers you need. Pat Im so tired of debating with > people in AA, Latina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2001 Report Share Posted January 19, 2001 > Hey its again I left a message yesterday that I am really > scared. Well I have to say I feel so much better. Thankyou. To > identify myself (because I guess there are a couple s on > here) Ill go by Latina . Im half hispanic. Anyway, where > are all you people located? Southeast here..... Im in conservative spokane washington. > I think its totally lame here. And its already conservative so > imagine what AA is like here. Alot of holy rollers down here. Although thats the only difference. I hate to admit but I've been to meetings in over 25 states....sort tells you it took me a bit longer than you to get out, but I can assure you its the same old bullshit regardless. Trust me. Very very patriarchal. I dont know > those people have hurt me so much and Im very angry. Im so anxious > tjo talk to people with my mindset although I wish it was in person. > I do have one question (Im still a little brainwashed frome AA) Me too. I > know im an alcoholic, late stage at that, I mean Im 26 and have been > in 9 treatment centers and have been in and out of AA for 6 years. I always had doubts. Even in AA. Now I'm pretty sure I'm not an alcoholic. But I was definitely a problem drinker. I was sent to AA when I was 24. I did become sober in AA eventually. Stayed there for quite some time, I left because I started feeling worse when I went to meetings. The longer between meetings the better I felt. What I heard just didn't sit right with me. > Anyway do you think its true what AA says that for the true alcoholic > (like myself) its the only thing that will work? I am not sure what a " true alcoholic is " I know I am definitely not one. I dont know I did > stay sober for a year w/o AA and another time I stayed sober for 3 > yeas with AA. I stayed sober with AA for a long time. I am still committed to being abstinent currently. I haven't had a drink in so long that I really don't miss it. Do any of you know the stats on AAs rate of sobriety? I'm sure folks here can answer your question better than I can. Most will say that it isn't better than any other recovery program or no program at all. Most people just stop drinking on there own. > Get back with your input and once again thanks, its so refreshing to > connect with people on the same page. I agree. I found this list a few months ago and it has been very helpful and insightful for me. I still have alot of AA conditioning in me. I'm sure that will take some time to dissipate. But the good thing about being here is you can draw your own conclusions based on facts. Thats what I like. No one threatens you or uses fear to persuade you to see things their way. Facts are presented in response to questions instead of those stupid AA slogans like " don't analyze utilize " or " don't ask why ask how " . Good Luck to you. Hope you find the answers you need. Pat Im so tired of debating with > people in AA, Latina Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2001 Report Share Posted January 20, 2001 > Wally, > Right on!!! > I love what you said. I think the more I continue focusing on this >alcohol > problem I have the bigger it gets. Im SOOO happy Ive finally found >some real support. Thats great . Never mind what you may or may not be, the fact is that for you at the moment alcohol is definitely bad news and should be avoided bottom line. Did we mention the 16steps group at egroups? You might find that helpful. You can find it at the main egroups page. If you keep getting into alcohol scrapes despite every intention not to it sounds like you may have an impusle problem. Various meds have been suggeested might be hlpeful such as naltrexone; also other meds may be helpful that are used for impulse disorders, such as Prozac. Might be an idea to get to see a specialist shrink to discuss these options rather than just you regular doctor. You can beat the problem! Best, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2001 Report Share Posted January 20, 2001 > Wally, > Right on!!! > I love what you said. I think the more I continue focusing on this >alcohol > problem I have the bigger it gets. Im SOOO happy Ive finally found >some real support. Thats great . Never mind what you may or may not be, the fact is that for you at the moment alcohol is definitely bad news and should be avoided bottom line. Did we mention the 16steps group at egroups? You might find that helpful. You can find it at the main egroups page. If you keep getting into alcohol scrapes despite every intention not to it sounds like you may have an impusle problem. Various meds have been suggeested might be hlpeful such as naltrexone; also other meds may be helpful that are used for impulse disorders, such as Prozac. Might be an idea to get to see a specialist shrink to discuss these options rather than just you regular doctor. You can beat the problem! Best, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2001 Report Share Posted January 20, 2001 > Wally, > Right on!!! > I love what you said. I think the more I continue focusing on this >alcohol > problem I have the bigger it gets. Im SOOO happy Ive finally found >some real support. Thats great . Never mind what you may or may not be, the fact is that for you at the moment alcohol is definitely bad news and should be avoided bottom line. Did we mention the 16steps group at egroups? You might find that helpful. You can find it at the main egroups page. If you keep getting into alcohol scrapes despite every intention not to it sounds like you may have an impusle problem. Various meds have been suggeested might be hlpeful such as naltrexone; also other meds may be helpful that are used for impulse disorders, such as Prozac. Might be an idea to get to see a specialist shrink to discuss these options rather than just you regular doctor. You can beat the problem! Best, Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2001 Report Share Posted January 20, 2001 AA's own triennial surveys indicate that only abt 5% of ppl are still attending 1 yr later and over 70% of them have had a drink during that time. I remember a guy on I think addict-l who said his home group numbered about 300 and had been going for 30 yrs; his bit of service was to keep a card index of ppl's AA " birthdays " and send them a congratulatory card. He told me the number as proof of AA effectiveness. When I did the Math, it turned out that a 95% annual dropout rate of a group maintaining a number of 300 per meeting would provide pretty well exactly the number of abstinenet folks that were in his card index! P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2001 Report Share Posted January 20, 2001 AA's own triennial surveys indicate that only abt 5% of ppl are still attending 1 yr later and over 70% of them have had a drink during that time. I remember a guy on I think addict-l who said his home group numbered about 300 and had been going for 30 yrs; his bit of service was to keep a card index of ppl's AA " birthdays " and send them a congratulatory card. He told me the number as proof of AA effectiveness. When I did the Math, it turned out that a 95% annual dropout rate of a group maintaining a number of 300 per meeting would provide pretty well exactly the number of abstinenet folks that were in his card index! P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2001 Report Share Posted January 20, 2001 AA's own triennial surveys indicate that only abt 5% of ppl are still attending 1 yr later and over 70% of them have had a drink during that time. I remember a guy on I think addict-l who said his home group numbered about 300 and had been going for 30 yrs; his bit of service was to keep a card index of ppl's AA " birthdays " and send them a congratulatory card. He told me the number as proof of AA effectiveness. When I did the Math, it turned out that a 95% annual dropout rate of a group maintaining a number of 300 per meeting would provide pretty well exactly the number of abstinenet folks that were in his card index! P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2001 Report Share Posted January 20, 2001 > There was the MATCH research report (or whatever it was) a few years > ago, that if I remember right, said that AA is hardly any better or worse > than other programs such as SOS, RR/SMART, or doing nothing at all. MATCH did not compare support groups, it compared therapies. Twelve Step was found in general to be no better than either of the other two approaches used. However, since many of the Twelve Step people were attending AA and getting the benefit of social support there, it's very likely that if those in the other groups had a compatible suppor group to go to, they would have done better. Unfortunately I do not believe there has been any scientific comparison of support groups. However, SMART is based on a form of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for which scientific support exists. P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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