Guest guest Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 This is not rocket science. If you look at 's post #33472, he quotes me as saying " Jews are like-minded. " Absurd. I never said any such thing. Fromm, Bronowski, Hellman - and Rita, too, for that matter - have a way of viewing the world that I admire. Rabbi Dr. Twerski views the world very differently, and I do NOT admire him. The dispute I had with Rita was not over whether ALL Jews think like Twerski, but rather whether Twerski's way of thinking has gained substantial support in the Jewish community in recent years. We also debated whether the structure of the Jewish intellectual tradition was different enough from " Christian " AA so as to protect against 12-Step infiltration. Rita believed this might be so. I said I disagreed, and, in fact, I also claimed that AA is not really " Christian " at all, but rather takes a more generic, " spiritual " form. These are not terribly subtle arguments, the differences are rather clear cut, and you guys ought to be able to get them right. Failing that, at least have the courtesy to go back and check when your interpretation is questioned. By the way, if you ask me, " What do you have there? " and I reply " I have apples and pears, " this does NOT imply I have ALL the apples and pears in the world in my hands. It just means I have apples and pears. I have SOME apples and pears. Similarly, if I say, " Jews have been corrupted by the 12-STep virus, too, " you cannot infer I mean ALL Jews. ly, I don't know how many Jews in the U.S. (or Episcopalians, or Methodists, or Buddhists, or UFO survivors) are to be found in the 12-Step movement. Nobody does. Statistics like this are not available. But it is easy to see that SOME Jews have, indeed, been infected by the 12-Step virus, just as have many other people. And, moreover, the influence of Stepping in the Jewish community seems to be substantial, and growing. What is it about my position here that is so terribly difficult to fathom? > > > -> It would appear that we both stand accused of having misstated > > > -others > > > -> positions. I will say for my part that I believe you've > > misstated > > > -my > > > -> statement of your position just now. > > > -> > > > -> I'm Interested in Rita's take on my original position at this > > point. > > > -> > > > -> Would you mind reposting or forwarding offline your initial > post > > on > > > -this > > > -> issue? > > > -> > > > -> - Re: > > > -> - > > > -> - > > > -> - > > > -> - > > > -> - - > > > -> - > > > -> - You have absolutely misstated my position. > > > -> > > > -> - I NEVER said all persons of Jewish heritage were attracted to > > > -> Stepping. > > > -> > > > -> Nor did I say that this is what you stated. > > > - > > > - > > > - > > > - > > > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 > > > > > > > What is it about my position here that is so terribly difficult > to fathom? > > >Hi , Don't have a problem here....unless I'm missing something, agree. All people can be 'infected' given the 'right circumstances'. Most likely to get 'infected', one who's worn down physically, mentally and/or emotionally. Jews, christians, young, old, intellects, naturalist, rich, poor whatever - fill in the blank. 'Spiritual' covers em all. Not just christians. It's much more complicated then that. It sometimes appears to be christian beliefs because thats what most individuals in the 'States' are exposed to the most. (myself included, mixed with a bit of other things-which I won't get into right now) Under the 'right circumstances' and whatever your beliefs/non-beliefs may be, AA welcomes you with open arms. Through the 'process' (the steps and following their suggestions) you get funneled down into an obedient slave. (not into a christian, although it may appear that way at first for the ones who have that kind of background). Kinda reminds me of the message on rearview mirror: objects are closer then they appear. It's a mind f**k. It's about what you have in your head(mind). They try to shape and mold that through different means and suggestions. Our mind has good and bad in it, and it can be played out. You can literally get higher then any drug I know of, and it's all in your head. Crazy shit. But the opposite can happen too--freak out city, you don't want to go there! They also can " suggest " this turn when your not following their plan of action. And if you leave or start thinking, they really hope you have internalized the part - then you die, go insane or end up in prison. The mind is a very powerful thing, and so many variables. are involved. Like the more stress points that are on you the more someone can mess with your head. It's not about your title, that only helps to determine the kind of experience your mind can/will give you. Well, those are just my thoughts. And thats how I see it right now. netty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 Yes I guess you could say that, but my argument is the XA mind fuck is more consistent with the Christian mind fuck than the Jewish mind fuck. If your mind is already markedly fucked by Judaism it will be harder to convert it to XAism than if your mind is already fucked by Christianity. The tenets of Christianity are closer to those of XA than are those of Judaism, with fewer major differences in doctrine. Fewer differences in doctrine = easier indoctrination to the new set of beliefs. > > > > > > > > > > > > What is it about my position here that is so terribly difficult > > to fathom? > > > > > >Hi , > Don't have a problem here....unless I'm missing something, agree. > All people can be 'infected' given the 'right circumstances'. Most > likely to get 'infected', one who's worn down physically, mentally > and/or emotionally. > Jews, christians, young, old, intellects, naturalist, rich, poor > whatever - fill in the blank. 'Spiritual' covers em all. Not just > christians. It's much more complicated then that. It sometimes > appears to be christian beliefs because thats what most individuals > in the 'States' are exposed to the most. (myself included, mixed with > a bit of other things-which I won't get into right now) Under > the 'right circumstances' and whatever your beliefs/non-beliefs may > be, AA welcomes you with open arms. Through the 'process' (the steps > and following their suggestions) you get funneled down into an > obedient slave. (not into a christian, although it may appear that > way at first for the ones who have that kind of background). Kinda > reminds me of the message on rearview mirror: > objects are closer then they appear. It's a mind f**k. It's about > what you have in your head(mind). They try to shape and mold that > through different means and suggestions. Our mind has good and bad > in it, and it can be played out. You can literally get higher then > any drug I know of, and it's all in your head. Crazy shit. But the > opposite can happen too--freak out city, you don't want to go there! > They also can " suggest " this turn when your not following their plan > of action. And if you leave or start thinking, they really hope you > have internalized the part - then you die, go insane or end up in > prison. The mind is a very powerful thing, and so many variables. > are involved. Like the more stress points that are on you the more > someone can mess with your head. It's not about your title, that > only helps to determine the kind of experience your mind can/will > give you. Well, those are just my thoughts. And thats how I see it > right now. > netty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is it about my position here that is so terribly > difficult > > > to fathom? > > > > > > > > >Hi , > > Don't have a problem here....unless I'm missing something, agree. > > All people can be 'infected' given the 'right circumstances'. Most > > likely to get 'infected', one who's worn down physically, mentally > > and/or emotionally. > > Jews, christians, young, old, intellects, naturalist, rich, poor > > whatever - fill in the blank. 'Spiritual' covers em all. Not just > > christians. It's much more complicated then that. It sometimes > > appears to be christian beliefs because thats what most individuals > > in the 'States' are exposed to the most. (myself included, mixed > with > > a bit of other things-which I won't get into right now) Under > > the 'right circumstances' and whatever your beliefs/non-beliefs > may > > be, AA welcomes you with open arms. Through the 'process' (the > steps > > and following their suggestions) you get funneled down into an > > obedient slave. (not into a christian, although it may appear that > > way at first for the ones who have that kind of background). Kinda > > reminds me of the message on rearview mirror: > > objects are closer then they appear. It's a mind f**k. It's about > > what you have in your head(mind). They try to shape and mold that > > through different means and suggestions. Our mind has good and > bad > > in it, and it can be played out. You can literally get higher then > > any drug I know of, and it's all in your head. Crazy shit. But the > > opposite can happen too--freak out city, you don't want to go > there! > > They also can " suggest " this turn when your not following their > plan > > of action. And if you leave or start thinking, they really hope > you > > have internalized the part - then you die, go insane or end up in > > prison. The mind is a very powerful thing, and so many variables. > > are involved. Like the more stress points that are on you the more > > someone can mess with your head. It's not about your title, that > > only helps to determine the kind of experience your mind can/will > > give you. Well, those are just my thoughts. And thats how I see it > > right now. > > netty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2001 Report Share Posted July 11, 2001 > > Yes I guess you could say that, but my argument is the XA mind fuck > > is more consistent with the Christian mind fuck than the Jewish > mind > > fuck. If your mind is already markedly fucked by Judaism it will > be > > harder to convert it to XAism than if your mind is already fucked > by > > Christianity. The tenets of Christianity are closer to those of XA > > than are those of Judaism, with fewer major differences in > doctrine. > > Fewer differences in doctrine = easier indoctrination to the new > set > > of > beliefs. > > Hi cool guy, > Oh - I see. Then maybe you can give me the exact list of what this > new set of beliefs intail. That would be very helpful. > Thanks > netty Well, I can't provide an exact list and basically it is not a new list... it is nearly the same list used by the Christians for 2000 years, but with the more believable " choose your own deity " (for " modern " and " intelligent " ;-) human beings). Well, look at the steps. You HAVE to believe in a Higher Power - same with Judaism and Christianity. You HAVE to admit that you are powerless and can not control your own life - same as Christianity. Only by turning over control to the HP can you live a life " really worth living. " You HAVE to help others - same as Christianity. You HAVE to obey the religion (suggestions/commandments/steps/elders/hp) or terrible things will happen - same as Judaism and Christianity. You HAVE to do a moral inventory, between yourself, HP, and an elder... same as Christianity (Catholicism). You HAVE to ask God to forgive and take away character defects - same as Christianity. (In Judaism, you fix yourself, but in XA/Christianity you pray that your HP will fix you - this an essential difference between Judaism and Christianity where XA is similar to Christianity and unlike Judaism). XA has more in common with Christianity than Judaism. Of course they've always disquised XA as being non-religious, but that is bullshit and we know it. Its a religion, just like Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism... or any other cult or religion. It has differences and things in common with all the other cults and religions - it happens to have the most in common with Christianity because it was designed predominantly by Christians for Christians. There are lots of others on this list, such as palingenesis which is a term I learned about today, but I'm too tired (and maybe too ignorant as well) to make a thorough list - for that I apologize. For anyone who read this much, I found this BS on AA's site http://www.aa.org/english/E_FactFile/M-24_d6.html : " At the same time, it will be pointed out [to the newcomer] that all available medical testimony indicates that alcoholism is a progressive illness, that it cannot be cured in the ordinary sense of the term, but that it can be arrested through total abstinence from alcohol in any form. " When did they start using the word illness? Could this be because of spies like Shirk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2001 Report Share Posted July 11, 2001 This is a lie of course., The epidemiologiy suggests that most recover from alcohol abuse, and more to moderate than to abstain. Note that they didnt back up the claim with a quote. P. > For anyone who read this much, I found this BS on AA's site > http://www.aa.org/english/E_FactFile/M-24_d6.html : > > " At the same time, it will be pointed out [to the newcomer] that all > available medical testimony indicates that alcoholism is a > progressive illness, that it cannot be cured in the ordinary sense of > the term, but that it can be arrested through total abstinence from > alcohol in any form. " When did they start using the word illness? > Could this be because of spies like Shirk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2001 Report Share Posted July 11, 2001 Thats why I said, " I found this BS on AA's site. " I was surprised that they dropped the BS term " disease " that they have been using for years and replaced it with illness. Maybe they are beginning to clean up their act - starting with the most obvious things we point out. Or, perhaps just an oversight on the part of the web-editor. > > > For anyone who read this much, I found this BS on AA's site > > http://www.aa.org/english/E_FactFile/M-24_d6.html : > > > > " At the same time, it will be pointed out [to the newcomer] that all > > available medical testimony indicates that alcoholism is a > > progressive illness, that it cannot be cured in the ordinary sense > of > > the term, but that it can be arrested through total abstinence from > > alcohol in any form. " When did they start using the word illness? > > Could this be because of spies like Shirk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2001 Report Share Posted July 11, 2001 Why should they have a quote if " all available medical testimony indicates " it? Now they don't want to be rude like Mona, do they?? And just what does all available mean? All available from the GSO? > > > For anyone who read this much, I found this BS on AA's site > > http://www.aa.org/english/E_FactFile/M-24_d6.html : > > > > " At the same time, it will be pointed out [to the newcomer] that all > > available medical testimony indicates that alcoholism is a > > progressive illness, that it cannot be cured in the ordinary sense > of > > the term, but that it can be arrested through total abstinence from > > alcohol in any form. " When did they start using the word illness? > > Could this be because of spies like Shirk? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2001 Report Share Posted July 12, 2001 In a message dated 7/12/01 6:49:23 AM Central Daylight Time, ghhws1@... writes: << OTOH I make a connection. It's this " powerlessness " stuph. We can bicker about which came first, the chicken or the egg, and whether the burgeoning 12-step groups are causing this powerless spiritualization of society's consciousness, or if it's the general spiritualization of society's consciousness that is contributing to the proliferation of 12-step groups. I would take the position for the time being that the 12-step program is both an effect and a cause in a larger picture of hieararchy in which a lot of people are being disempowered. >> , So true about the chicken-and-egg; I was taught by family and society to feel powerless LONG before I ever had a first drink, much less before I went to my first meeting. You have said in a nutshell what I think was trying to say in some of his long-winded discussions, that 12 steppism is part of a larger picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2001 Report Share Posted July 12, 2001 Cool guy - It has a point, I think, and will end at a destination. But you are right to have your own interests. Why not just ignore these postings? The server has a lot of memory, and at worst I am probably merely wasting my own time. There is no intent to offend you. ciao > > > > > > , > > > > > > > > It was like being hit with a 2 by 4. (to be continued; > scream > > if > > > > I am boring you.) > > > > > > Failure to continue this story is the option that will garner you > > > harsh consequences! > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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