Absolutely Honest Shirk is still on this list

[Guest guest]

Shirk made a post on addict-l which clearly shows that he is still

lurking on this list. If youre up to it Ken, you could try requesting

confirms from all 12f members and matching header addresses with

Sjrik's knon posts here.

[Guest guest]

I believe so as well Pete. He's currently on Usenet rationalizing his way

around having joined this list in spite of the fact he is as far outside the

description of the list as it's possible to get.

He's claiming he lurks here for the following:

" To why do I monitor that list. Because there are things to be learned. "

Just what " things " he doesn't specify in that post but it's fairly safe to

say he's probably picking up gouge on you Ken and the other members he

debates with on other forums. Also as Ken indicated to another poster I

wouldn't trust him with the information he does pick up on this list.

It's asking a bit much of Ken to ask for confirms from scratch.

Realistically I don't think there's much he can do except boot someone off

for long periods of non participation (boot inactive list members).

Ultimately that wouldn't be very effective either as it would result in many

legitimate members being booted and he and the others like him would simply

resubscribe.

He might try adding this to the description and requiring that they forward

it to him in an email prior to being allowed to join:

By joining this list I certify that I meet the criteria set forth in the

description and agree that should it later be shown that I do not I will pay

the sum of $10,000 dollars to be used for the purpose of spreading the

message that AA is a harmful religious movement. :0)

That should get their attention.

- " Absolutely Honest " Shirk is still on this list

-

-

-Shirk made a post on addict-l which clearly shows that he is still

-lurking on this list. If youre up to it Ken, you could try requesting

-confirms from all 12f members and matching header addresses with

-Sjrik's knon posts here.

-

[Guest guest]

Man, I'm really out of the loop here. Who is this person Shirk and what has he

done? If

he's lurking, how is that a problem?

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

> I believe so as well Pete. He's currently on Usenet rationalizing

his way

> around having joined this list in spite of the fact he is as far

outside the

> description of the list as it's possible to get.

>

> He's claiming he lurks here for the following:

>

> " To why do I monitor that list. Because there are things to be

learned. "

>

>

Hi ,

Do you know what name 'shirk' has gone by at other posts?

netty

[Guest guest]

> Man, I'm really out of the loop here. Who is this person Shirk and

what has he done? If

> he's lurking, how is that a problem?

>

> Cheers,

>

>

nz

Hi nz,

If it's who I think it is - I'm trying to find out - someone who is

brushing up on their manipulating skills.

BTW-loved your 'ranting'! It's great to do that now and then. Gets

the old blood flowing - sometimes I feel like a ass after I rant and

rave - but shit, sure does feel good at the time. Helps me to get a

new perspective of things too. Anyway, I thought it was cool.

netty

[Guest guest]

> > I believe so as well Pete. He's currently on Usenet

rationalizing

> his way

> > around having joined this list in spite of the fact he is as far

> outside the

> > description of the list as it's possible to get.

> >

> > He's claiming he lurks here for the following:

> >

> > " To why do I monitor that list. Because there are things to be

> learned. "

> >

> >

> Hi ,

> Do you know what name 'shirk' has gone by at other posts?

>

Ooops! Also, can you or someone tell me how to get to usenet

rationalizing? Gotta check this

out!

caenemy

[Guest guest]

Click on this link. If nothing happens drop me a private email.

news:alt.recovery.from-12-steps

------Original Message-----

-From: caenemy@...

-> Hi ,

-> Do you know what name 'shirk' has gone by at other posts?

On this list he was posting as: Felsjager@... he claims to have been

posting on the LSR list with that name as well. He posts as jlsinwa@...

on Usenet.

- Ooops! Also, can you or someone tell me how to get to usenet

-rationalizing?

lol well it's Usenet not Usenet rationalizing. If you have a newsgroup

reader, like outlook express, loaded on your computer then it should be

activated by clicking on the below.

news:alt.recovery.from-12-steps

If not start here:

http://www.ibiblio.org/usenet-i/usenet-help.html

alt.recovery.from-12-steps is the specific newsgroup name.

www.deja.com

[Guest guest]

> Click on this link. If nothing happens drop me a private email.

>

> news:alt.recovery.from-12-steps

>

>

> ------Original Message-----

> -From: caenemy@y... [mailto:caenemy@y...]

>

> -> Hi ,

> -> Do you know what name 'shirk' has gone by at other posts?

>

> On this list he was posting as: Felsjager@a... he claims to have

been

> posting on the LSR list with that name as well. He posts as

jlsinwa@a...

> on Usenet.

>

> - Ooops! Also, can you or someone tell me how to get to usenet

> -rationalizing?

>

> lol well it's Usenet not Usenet rationalizing. If you have a

newsgroup

> reader, like outlook express, loaded on your computer then it

should be

> activated by clicking on the below.

>

> news:alt.recovery.from-12-steps

>

> If not start here:

>

> http://www.ibiblio.org/usenet-i/usenet-help.html

>

>

> alt.recovery.from-12-steps is the specific newsgroup name.

>

>

www.deja.com

I'm the computor whiz kid - don't laugh. I will find it. Thanks for

your assistance. Know of any other posts he's been on?

netty

[Guest guest]

> I believe so as well Pete. He's currently on Usenet rationalizing

his way

> around having joined this list in spite of the fact he is as far

outside the

> description of the list as it's possible to get.

>

> He's claiming he lurks here for the following:

>

> " To why do I monitor that list. Because there are things to be

>learned. "

Jim Shirk cant learn well enough to read a f***ing DSM manual. You

should see the ludicrous rationaliztions on addict-l he has made to

get round the embarassing (for him) fact that the DSM does not require

abstinence for Full Remission from Alcohol/Subtance Dependence. He

has also indicated his agreemement with the ludicrous notion that all

illict drug use is Subtabce Abuse. He claims that 95% of addiction

treatmentr providers agree with him and in the US that is probably

true. theyre entitled to their own opinions of couse, but if these

folks are writing DSM dxes in any context for their own private views

than imo their guilty of malpractice. In the case of the ICD thsat

practice of insisting on abstinence appears to be even more

indefiensible, yet these creeps will be writing ICD codes to insurance

companies to collect.

[Guest guest]

Hi .

That is of course why he is here. On addict-l he asked me " How is the

disruption of the Hazelden site going? " which is how I know he is

here. It occurs to me that Hazelden almost certainly takes coerced

individuals and reports back to their tormentors on their " treatment

compliance " i.e. willingness to adopt XA theology. If so then Hazelden

are human rights violators and as such imo non-violent disruption of

their activies is morally justified.

What could be done regard Shirk and his ilk is ask that ppl who join

do indeed qualify under the stated purposes of this list. If Shirk is

indeed here then if the twice Vietenam veteran has a shred of

integrity he will leave.

He may well pick up on the fact that there are some of us (myself

included) who are on the gso list and he will use that as moral

justifcation for being here. Apart from being a non sequitir which I

am sure it is impossible to make him understand, to date I have not

even been *asked* by the listowner to leave gso, let alone actively

removed. Indeed, to date the listowner appears to have been more

sympathetic to me than the membership. Another irony of course is

that Shirk mught well find the activites of the gso list as

embarassing to AA as what get said here.

> I believe so as well Pete. He's currently on Usenet rationalizing

his way

> around having joined this list in spite of the fact he is as far

outside the

> description of the list as it's possible to get.

>

> He's claiming he lurks here for the following:

>

> " To why do I monitor that list. Because there are things to be

learned. "

>

> Just what " things " he doesn't specify in that post but it's fairly

safe to

> say he's probably picking up gouge on you Ken and the other members

he

> debates with on other forums. Also as Ken indicated to another

poster I

> wouldn't trust him with the information he does pick up on this

list.

>

> It's asking a bit much of Ken to ask for confirms from scratch.

> Realistically I don't think there's much he can do except boot

someone off

> for long periods of non participation (boot inactive list members).

> Ultimately that wouldn't be very effective either as it would result

in many

> legitimate members being booted and he and the others like him would

simply

> resubscribe.

>

> He might try adding this to the description and requiring that they

forward

> it to him in an email prior to being allowed to join:

>

> By joining this list I certify that I meet the criteria set forth in

the

> description and agree that should it later be shown that I do not I

will pay

> the sum of $10,000 dollars to be used for the purpose of spreading

the

> message that AA is a harmful religious movement. :0)

>

> That should get their attention.

>

>

> - " Absolutely Honest " Shirk is still on this

list

> -

> -

> -Shirk made a post on addict-l which clearly shows that he is still

> -lurking on this list. If youre up to it Ken, you could try

requesting

> -confirms from all 12f members and matching header addresses with

> -Sjrik's knon posts here.

> -

[Guest guest]

Shirk is a fool who cant even read a DSM manual.

Unfortunately, he is a semi-retired addictions counsellor and

influential in top level AA. He will use what he finds here to

strengthen AA's defences and preserve its power.

> > Man, I'm really out of the loop here. Who is this person Shirk

and

> what has he done? If

> > he's lurking, how is that a problem?

> >

> > Cheers,

> >

> >

> nz

>

>

> Hi nz,

> If it's who I think it is - I'm trying to find out - someone who is

> brushing up on their manipulating skills.

> BTW-loved your 'ranting'! It's great to do that now and then. Gets

> the old blood flowing - sometimes I feel like a ass after I rant and

> rave - but shit, sure does feel good at the time. Helps me to get a

> new perspective of things too. Anyway, I thought it was cool.

> netty

[Guest guest]

Jim Shirk is the guy who was giving me info for my hubby's DUI case here in

Washington state. I was warned by Ken and someone else to stay clear of him

as he is an AA'er. He and Ken and the other person that I can't remember do

not get along and Shirk was knocked off the list due to his known support

for AA and I can't remember the other reasons... hope that rings a bell.

lisak

Re: " Absolutely Honest " Shirk is still on this list

>

> > Man, I'm really out of the loop here. Who is this person Shirk and

> what has he done? If

> > he's lurking, how is that a problem?

> >

> > Cheers,

> >

> >

> nz

>

>

> Hi nz,

> If it's who I think it is - I'm trying to find out - someone who is

> brushing up on their manipulating skills.

> BTW-loved your 'ranting'! It's great to do that now and then. Gets

> the old blood flowing - sometimes I feel like a ass after I rant and

> rave - but shit, sure does feel good at the time. Helps me to get a

> new perspective of things too. Anyway, I thought it was cool.

> netty

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hello

It is unfortunate that Shirk actually gave valuable information to you

imo, and if his activites were restricted to that then imo there is no

problem. I even said to him that I thought his removal from 12sf was

unfair at that point. However the fact that he resubscribed

despite the wishes of the listowner makes it clear he does not respect

this list. And he calls me a troll.

P.

> > > Man, I'm really out of the loop here. Who is this person Shirk

and

> > what has he done? If

> > > he's lurking, how is that a problem?

> > >

> > > Cheers,

> > >

> > >

> > nz

> >

> >

> > Hi nz,

> > If it's who I think it is - I'm trying to find out - someone who

is

> > brushing up on their manipulating skills.

> > BTW-loved your 'ranting'! It's great to do that now and then.

Gets

> > the old blood flowing - sometimes I feel like a ass after I rant

and

> > rave - but shit, sure does feel good at the time. Helps me to get

a

> > new perspective of things too. Anyway, I thought it was cool.

> > netty

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi, Pete,

Like , I don't really know anything about ths Shirk dude. It's

true that we often do discuss tactics to use in spreading

information, creating alternatives, presenting 12-step critisizms,

legal tactics, etc. As you posted earlier, this Shirk is perusing our

list, as he did make referance to the Hazelton survey. Do you

know what his position is, in that he would have motive to use

this information against us?

Devin

> > > > Man, I'm really out of the loop here. Who is this person

Shirk

> and

> > > what has he done? If

> > > > he's lurking, how is that a problem?

> > > >

> > > > Cheers,

> > > >

> > > >

> > > nz

> > >

> > >

> > > Hi nz,

> > > If it's who I think it is - I'm trying to find out - someone who

> is

> > > brushing up on their manipulating skills.

> > > BTW-loved your 'ranting'! It's great to do that now and then.

> Gets

> > > the old blood flowing - sometimes I feel like a ass after I

rant

> and

> > > rave - but shit, sure does feel good at the time. Helps me to

get

> a

> > > new perspective of things too. Anyway, I thought it was cool.

> > > netty

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I just wanted to clarify that I think Shirk is a jerk. Not only

because of his views, but also because of the way he acts.

> > I believe so as well Pete. He's currently on Usenet

rationalizing

> his way

> > around having joined this list in spite of the fact he is as far

> outside the

> > description of the list as it's possible to get.

> >

> > He's claiming he lurks here for the following:

> >

> > " To why do I monitor that list. Because there are things to be

> >learned. "

>

> Jim Shirk cant learn well enough to read a f***ing DSM manual. You

> should see the ludicrous rationaliztions on addict-l he has made to

> get round the embarassing (for him) fact that the DSM does not

require

> abstinence for Full Remission from Alcohol/Subtance Dependence. He

> has also indicated his agreemement with the ludicrous notion that

all

> illict drug use is Subtabce Abuse. He claims that 95% of addiction

> treatmentr providers agree with him and in the US that is probably

> true. theyre entitled to their own opinions of couse, but if these

> folks are writing DSM dxes in any context for their own private

views

> than imo their guilty of malpractice. In the case of the ICD thsat

> practice of insisting on abstinence appears to be even more

> indefiensible, yet these creeps will be writing ICD codes to

insurance

> companies to collect.

[Guest guest]

> Hi, Pete,

> Like , I don't really know anything about ths Shirk dude. It's

> true that we often do discuss tactics to use in spreading

> information, creating alternatives, presenting 12-step critisizms,

> legal tactics, etc. As you posted earlier, this Shirk is perusing

our

> list, as he did make referance to the Hazelton survey. Do you

> know what his position is, in that he would have motive to use

> this information against us?

High up AA member, and semi-retired addiction practitioner for whom

coerced cases are potential meal tickets and AA fodder.

[Guest guest]

> > Hi, Pete,

> > Like , I don't really know anything about ths Shirk dude.

It's

> > true that we often do discuss tactics to use in spreading

> > information, creating alternatives, presenting 12-step

critisizms,

> > legal tactics, etc. As you posted earlier, this Shirk is perusing

> our

> > list, as he did make referance to the Hazelton survey. Do you

> > know what his position is, in that he would have motive to use

> > this information against us?

>

> High up AA member, and semi-retired addiction practitioner for whom

> coerced cases are potential meal tickets and AA

fodder.

Hi Pete,

I think Shirk was also at AADeproggraming Bulletin Board under the

name Joe. Kinda sounds like him / same bs / different site. Can't

be sure, anyway of finding out? Went to that usenet place, yes I

found it, saw other names I've seen b/4 -- pretty crazy stuff.

About booting that guy, I just laughed, you have such an attitude.

netty

sure hope he was a enemy / instead of a parrot

[Guest guest]

>

> Hi Pete,

> I think Shirk was also at AADeproggraming Bulletin Board under the

> name Joe. Kinda sounds like him / same bs / different site. Can't

> be sure, anyway of finding out?

Apple at least can probably trace the email headers getting a lock on

him. She can delete stuff from a BB, but email gets sent.

> About booting that guy, I just laughed, you have such an attitude.

> netty

> sure hope he was a enemy / instead of a parrot

clearly enemy - lamplighters is High strength AA, and he was just

taking the piss. Why should we have the piss taken out of us by those

oh so spiritual creeps?

Pete

Bad Ass Ghetto Pimp

Youghurt coated raisin - white on the outside, black on the inside...

[Guest guest]

12-step-free zone Person:

I am not an enemy of the 12-step free zone.

Sorry my post was misinterpreted. I am very

confused about the choices I have made.

I joined the Lamplighters group upon recommendation

of this site. You asked that we spread non-AA infor-

mation and see how long we were left to remain on

their list. I find this unnecessary as the faction in AA

seems to be internal. There is quite a lot of subtle AA

bashing I read in the posts, people without sponsors,

people who are upset about the medication issue not

being addressed properly or at all, people who have worked through codependency issues and find the AA people to be

seriously lacking in this area.

It's refreshing that these people remained strong to their

own internal values and have not succombed to the requisite

madness of "the program."

I, unfortunately, was not able to be one of them.

UserMr4414@...

[Guest guest]

At 07:02 AM 7/11/01 -0000, watts_pete@... wrote:

>

>

>>

>> Hi Pete,

>> I think Shirk was also at AADeproggraming Bulletin Board under the

>> name Joe. Kinda sounds like him / same bs / different site. Can't

>> be sure, anyway of finding out?

>

>Apple at least can probably trace the email headers getting a lock on

>him. She can delete stuff from a BB, but email gets sent.

>

>> About booting that guy, I just laughed, you have such an attitude.

>> netty

>> sure hope he was a enemy / instead of a parrot

>

>clearly enemy - lamplighters is High strength AA, and he was just

>taking the piss. Why should we have the piss taken out of us by those

>oh so spiritual creeps?

This is the second time you've said " take the piss " about Shirk, and

I don't quite know what you mean - it must be a Britishism. Would you

explain?

>

>Pete

>

>Bad Ass Ghetto Pimp

>Youghurt coated raisin - white on the outside, black on the inside...

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

>

> This is the second time you've said " take the piss " about Shirk,

and

> I don't quite know what you mean - it must be a Britishism. Would

you

> explain?

The second time wasnt about Shirk (not sure the first time was either,

but never mind). To " take the piss " means to deride. I suspected it

might not translate. Btw, in the UK " pissed " only means " angry " when

accompanied by " off " , e.g. " I am pissed off " . " I am pissed " by itself

means " drunk " .

P.

[Guest guest]

> 12-step-free zone Person:

>

> I am not an enemy of the 12-step free zone.

> Sorry my post was misinterpreted. I am very

> confused about the choices I have made.

Well funnily enough, mocking posts do give the impression you are an

enemy.

> I joined the Lamplighters group upon recommendation

> of this site. You asked that we spread non-AA infor-

> mation and see how long we were left to remain on

> their list.

That was a *rhetorical* statement, probably made by me personally, not

by this " site " . I only ever say things like that to XA apologists to

indicate why I think they should have their butt kicked out of here.

I dont believe that you have actually done that for an instant.

However, you have given me the idea to have a try myself. Lets see how

long *I* last there.

[Guest guest]

I didn't find the post mocking... at points I wondered, but in the

end it was good. Anyway.... where is this lamplighter group?

> > 12-step-free zone Person:

> >

> > I am not an enemy of the 12-step free zone.

> > Sorry my post was misinterpreted. I am very

> > confused about the choices I have made.

>

> Well funnily enough, mocking posts do give the impression you are

an

> enemy.

>

> > I joined the Lamplighters group upon recommendation

> > of this site. You asked that we spread non-AA infor-

> > mation and see how long we were left to remain on

> > their list.

>

> That was a *rhetorical* statement, probably made by me personally,

not

> by this " site " . I only ever say things like that to XA apologists

to

> indicate why I think they should have their butt kicked out of

here.

> I dont believe that you have actually done that for an instant.

> However, you have given me the idea to have a try myself. Lets see

how

> long *I* last there.

[Guest guest]

> I didn't find the post mocking... at points I wondered, but in the

> end it was good. Anyway.... where is this lamplighter group?

It was indeed funny and might superficially seem inocuous, but it was

barbed in places. Lamplighters is found easy enough with a search.

However, it makers it clear its a CLOSED AA list. Unless you

are an unprincipled Shitk you wont be able to join and keep your

integrity. Although of course, as it goes by Tradition 3 you ought to

be free to join if you practise abstinence. As it happens I have

applied to join but unlike Shirk I will be decent and *not* join,

though I was thinking of asking the listowner (who lives here in

London, oddly) to fwd a post asking members NOT to harass this list.

Some of the reponse dwelt on desire to STOP drinking as if a presently

abstinent person might not count - this is just my speculation. I

wont mae the request because quite proably there is only one

Lamplighters intruder and mentioning this list will likely just have a

" Please dont throw me in the briar patch " effect.

[Guest guest]

Dear Group:

I'm sure I did not mean to insult. I have a tendency to be maudlin. That is,

I guess, a character defect if it is not put to good use.

Now, I have a question, how would Edgar Allan Poe have fit in the AA structure?

Would he have been robbed of his artistry, his poetry?

If so, how can we stop this from happening again even though it didn't happen in

the first place?

Hypothetically speaking and soon to be removed from the 12-step free zone and the 12-step not-so-free zone. Ann