Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 > > How about 12-Step inpatient treatment in Israel? > > Just write to " Ha Derech - Substance Abuse and 12-Step Center, " > located at Kibbutz Gesher Ha Ziv, Israel. > > And, YES, '12-Step Center' is actually part of the official title > of the facility. (I found it through a google search, during which > my total time invested on all this stuff amounted to 45 minutes - > versus about 3 years or so of Rita's baloney). > > It doesn't take long to check facts - IF you want the facts, > instead of self-serving B.S. , The plural of " antedote " is not " evidence " . Were you also searching for Jewish viewpoints that don't support the 12-steps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 ahicks@... wrote: > > > > > How about 12-Step inpatient treatment in Israel? > > > > Just write to " Ha Derech - Substance Abuse and 12-Step Center, " > > located at Kibbutz Gesher Ha Ziv, Israel. > > > > And, YES, '12-Step Center' is actually part of the official title > > of the facility. (I found it through a google search, during which > > my total time invested on all this stuff amounted to 45 minutes - > > versus about 3 years or so of Rita's baloney). > > > > It doesn't take long to check facts - IF you want the facts, > > instead of self-serving B.S. > > , > > The plural of " antedote " is not " evidence " . > > Were you also searching for Jewish viewpoints that don't support the > 12-steps? > > , Of course he wasn't. But he does have a point that the Step groups, following Oxford Group and Buchman's lead have made great progress in infiltrating other religions. Ken Ragge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2001 Report Share Posted June 30, 2001 -- This is very disingenouous and contradictory to your previous assertions (correct, BTW) that the majority of Israeli Jews are NON-OBSERVANT by any standard. (As I noted in another post, Reform Jews are but a tiny segment of the Israeli population, though a majority in the U.S. -- most Israeli Jews are completely secular and un-affiliated. The extreme minority Charedi -- ultra-Orthodox -- purport to be the only 'true Jews', but are considered to be cranks and dangerous by the majority of Israelis.) So, some completely non-religious Jews in a foreign country are into the 12-step thing. And from this you conclude that 12-step ideology is " compatible with Jewish spirituality " ?!? Get real, . ~Rita > > How about 12-Step inpatient treatment in Israel? > > Just write to " Ha Derech - Substance Abuse and 12-Step Center, " > located at Kibbutz Gesher Ha Ziv, Israel. > > And, YES, '12-Step Center' is actually part of the official title > of the facility. (I found it through a google search, during which > my total time invested on all this stuff amounted to 45 minutes - > versus about 3 years or so of Rita's baloney). > > It doesn't take long to check facts - IF you want the facts, > instead of self-serving B.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Pure sophistry. No evidence. You just will not face the facts and admit that Jews are involved in 12-Stepping, will you? I defined the Jewish community in an earlier post, as do Jewish leaders, as composed of all those descended from a Jewish mother, or, in the case of more liberal religious Jews, a Jewish parent (mother or father), plus also converts (there are not many converts, and Reform converts are not always accepted as 'legitimate' by Orthodox, etc.) Jews who are fully secular are still accepted as Jews. This post of yours here is a bit confused, but you seem to be saying that the religious state of Israel, the homeland of the Jews given to them (according to belief) by God, is, in fact, inhabited mostly by sort of pseudo-Jews, who have little or nothing to do with your idea of 'real' Judaism, and, hence, if Israel was wall-to-wall 12-STep treatment centers, it would not prove any relationship between 12-Stepping and your 'ideal version' of what Judaism is. VEry, very weird reasoning. You are arriving at the point where, soon, only YOU will be a 'real Jew'. Look. Let me make it simple for you. You once claimed that most Jews in the U.S. would be offended by attendance at an AA meeting, or by 12-STepping. Let us leave you of it. You are entitled to your idiosyncratic opinion, which, personally, I rather admire. But I have been posting lots of evidence to show that many Jews accept 12- Stepping. Post some contrary evidence. Show me quotes from rabbis, etc, CONDEMNING 12-STepping. What matters here is balance of evidence. What do MOST Jews think?. Most see no inherent conflict between their Jewish heritage, and 12-STepping. Please, no more tortured sophistry. Present evidence. Mona and Ken can't accept that 12-stepping has penetrated to the heart of American society and economy. You can't accept that 12-Stepping has penetrated deeply into the Jewish community. No one wants to think the virus is deeply embedded in THEIR group. Instead, it is easier to see AA as just an isolated 'Christian cult'. > > > > How about 12-Step inpatient treatment in Israel? > > > > Just write to " Ha Derech - Substance Abuse and 12-Step Center, " > > located at Kibbutz Gesher Ha Ziv, Israel. > > > > And, YES, '12-Step Center' is actually part of the official title > > of the facility. (I found it through a google search, during which > > my total time invested on all this stuff amounted to 45 minutes - > > versus about 3 years or so of Rita's baloney). > > > > It doesn't take long to check facts - IF you want the facts, > > instead of self-serving B.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 -- Israel is NOT a " religious state " -- never has been. The vast majority of the Israeli populace are secular Jews. This does not mean they aren't " real " Jews, it means they aren't religious Jews. Now, if your purported argument is that 12-step SPIRITUAL IDEOLOGY is compatible with Jewish SPIRITUAL IDEOLOGY, then using the example of a 12-step center catering to secular Israeli Jews does not support your viewpoint. In fact, it strengthens MY argument that Jews who get involved in 12-stepping are most often secular and non- " spiritual " -- therefore might not perceive any conflicts between Jewish teaching and Steppist teaching. Now, true, I cannot at present cite any essays from rabbis or Jewish leaders expounding on the un-Jewish sentiments of 12-step ideology -- I grant you, I may be something of a lone wolf FOR NOW (like you, I also envision myself as having a mission to 'raise consciousness' and intend to do so in the Jewish community). But, YOU have not provided any evidence that any rabbis or Jewish leaders have stated that non-12-step ideologies are LESS compatible with Jewish teaching than 12-stepping is -- and no evidence that any Jewish leaders have ANY KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER of non-12-step counseling or programs. The more quotes you have from Jews who claim " AA saves lives " while having no knowledge of any other method of solving potentially lethal drinking/drugging problems, the more you prove MY point that the apparent " Jewish support of AA " is based on lack of information about alternatives, not on any belief that AA is MORE appropriate for Jews than other methods. I maintain (and intend to expound upon this in an article for MOMENT) that both SMART and LSR are more in keeping with Jewish values than XA is. I might very well be the first Jew to state this. But like I said, there is no evidence that rabbis and Jewish leaders have ever even heard of SMART or LSR, let alone state that AA is more compatible with Jewish spirituality than these alternatives. ~Rita > > > > > > How about 12-Step inpatient treatment in Israel? > > > > > > Just write to " Ha Derech - Substance Abuse and 12-Step > Center, " > > > located at Kibbutz Gesher Ha Ziv, Israel. > > > > > > And, YES, '12-Step Center' is actually part of the official > title > > > of the facility. (I found it through a google search, during > which > > > my total time invested on all this stuff amounted to 45 minutes - > > > versus about 3 years or so of Rita's baloney). > > > > > > It doesn't take long to check facts - IF you want the facts, > > > instead of self-serving B.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 By the way, good luck with your Moment manuscript. I hope it has some impact. > > > > > > > > How about 12-Step inpatient treatment in Israel? > > > > > > > > Just write to " Ha Derech - Substance Abuse and 12-Step > > Center, " > > > > located at Kibbutz Gesher Ha Ziv, Israel. > > > > > > > > And, YES, '12-Step Center' is actually part of the official > > title > > > > of the facility. (I found it through a google search, during > > which > > > > my total time invested on all this stuff amounted to 45 minutes - > > > > versus about 3 years or so of Rita's baloney). > > > > > > > > It doesn't take long to check facts - IF you want the facts, > > > > instead of self-serving B.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Will someone explain LSR to me? Not familiar with it. I'm familiar with SOS, WFS, SMART and of course RR and AA. Please expand my mind! lisak LSR is an outgrowth of SOS. In a nutshell, because of some tedious litigation, SOS groups in Northern California were enjoined from calling themselves such. Because SOS had a publishing arm called LifeRing Press with which it was already publicly identified, Northern CA SOS began calling itself LifeRing Secular Recovery. Most SOS chapters across the nation followed suit in order to achieve uniformity of name, but not all. Eventually, in 1999, LSR broke formally from SOS (which is a wholly owned subcommittee of the Council on Secular Humanism) and became a free-standing sobriety self-help group run by and for persons seeking to surmount chemical dependency. LSR's philosophy is essentially indistinguishable from SOS, and both organizations still operate from unhooked.com, to some extent, altho it is primarily a LifeRing site. That, in a very abbreviated nutshell, is how LSR came to be. --Mona-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2001 Report Share Posted July 1, 2001 Will someone explain LSR to me? Not familiar with it. I'm familiar with SOS, WFS, SMART and of course RR and AA. Please expand my mind! lisak Re: Jews/AA #3 > > -- > > Israel is NOT a " religious state " -- never has been. The vast majority of the Israeli populace are secular Jews. This does not mean they aren't " real " Jews, it means they aren't religious Jews. Now, if your purported argument is that 12-step SPIRITUAL IDEOLOGY is compatible with Jewish SPIRITUAL IDEOLOGY, then using the example of a 12-step center catering to secular Israeli Jews does not support your viewpoint. In fact, it strengthens MY argument that Jews who get involved in 12-stepping are most often secular and non- " spiritual " -- therefore might not perceive any conflicts between Jewish teaching and Steppist teaching. > > Now, true, I cannot at present cite any essays from rabbis or Jewish leaders expounding on the un-Jewish sentiments of 12-step ideology -- I grant you, I may be something of a lone wolf FOR NOW (like you, I also envision myself as having a mission to 'raise consciousness' and intend to do so in the Jewish community). But, YOU have not provided any evidence that any rabbis or Jewish leaders have stated that non-12-step ideologies are LESS compatible with Jewish teaching than 12-stepping is -- and no evidence that any Jewish leaders have ANY KNOWLEDGE WHATSOEVER of non-12-step counseling or programs. > > The more quotes you have from Jews who claim " AA saves lives " while having no knowledge of any other method of solving potentially lethal drinking/drugging problems, the more you prove MY point that the apparent " Jewish support of AA " is based on lack of information about alternatives, not on any belief that AA is MORE appropriate for Jews than other methods. > > I maintain (and intend to expound upon this in an article for MOMENT) that both SMART and LSR are more in keeping with Jewish values than XA is. I might very well be the first Jew to state this. But like I said, there is no evidence that rabbis and Jewish leaders have ever even heard of SMART or LSR, let alone state that AA is more compatible with Jewish spirituality than these alternatives. > > ~Rita > > > > > > > > > > > How about 12-Step inpatient treatment in Israel? > > > > > > > > Just write to " Ha Derech - Substance Abuse and 12-Step > > Center, " > > > > located at Kibbutz Gesher Ha Ziv, Israel. > > > > > > > > And, YES, '12-Step Center' is actually part of the official > > title > > > > of the facility. (I found it through a google search, during > > which > > > > my total time invested on all this stuff amounted to 45 minutes - > > > > versus about 3 years or so of Rita's baloney). > > > > > > > > It doesn't take long to check facts - IF you want the facts, > > > > instead of self-serving B.S. > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2001 Report Share Posted July 2, 2001 Thanks Mona, will check it out. lisak Re: Re: Jews/AA #3 Will someone explain LSR to me? Not familiar with it. I'm familiar with SOS, WFS, SMART and of course RR and AA. Please expand my mind! lisak LSR is an outgrowth of SOS. In a nutshell, because of some tedious litigation, SOS groups in Northern California were enjoined from calling themselves such. Because SOS had a publishing arm called LifeRing Press with which it was already publicly identified, Northern CA SOS began calling itself LifeRing Secular Recovery. Most SOS chapters across the nation followed suit in order to achieve uniformity of name, but not all. Eventually, in 1999, LSR broke formally from SOS (which is a wholly owned subcommittee of the Council on Secular Humanism) and became a free-standing sobriety self-help group run by and for persons seeking to surmount chemical dependency. LSR's philosophy is essentially indistinguishable from SOS, and both organizations still operate from unhooked.com, to some extent, altho it is primarily a LifeRing site. That, in a very abbreviated nutshell, is how LSR came to be. --Mona-- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2001 Report Share Posted July 7, 2001 Rita, Just wondering why you left RR out of the organizations with beliefs that don't contradict Judaism. The bimonthly RR journal occasionally cites Biblical passages supporting RR's simple yet unique ideology, that is, looking at addiction from a *moral* standpoint. I think that of all of them, RR is clearly the one that can " fit " with any legitimate religion best. SMART doesn't kick out any members who state their religion (as far as I know), however, the organization is clearly secular humanist, which is really atheist. I do believe that one's religion is irrelevant to recovering, so I can envision religious individuals fitting in SMART. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2001 Report Share Posted July 7, 2001 I find posts like this extremely offive. Am i alone in this? > > > > > > How about 12-Step inpatient treatment in Israel? > > > > > > Just write to " Ha Derech - Substance Abuse and 12-Step > Center, " > > > located at Kibbutz Gesher Ha Ziv, Israel. > > > > > > And, YES, '12-Step Center' is actually part of the official > title > > > of the facility. (I found it through a google search, during > which > > > my total time invested on all this stuff amounted to 45 minutes - > > > versus about 3 years or so of Rita's baloney). > > > > > > It doesn't take long to check facts - IF you want the facts, > > > instead of self-serving B.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2001 Report Share Posted July 7, 2001 Rita, So how would you define, " secular humanism " ? As I said in another post, I have been given very different explanations of what the term means and since you seem knowledgeable on subjects involving religion, I would trust that you have an accurate understanding of the meaning of the term in relation to religion or " spirituality " . (I use the term in quotes because, by definition, spirituality is distinguished by *individuality*, i.e. it distinctly refers to the beliefs of any one person, and that person's actions (prayer, meditation, etc.) relating to those beliefs. AA is actually the complete opposite, as despite the " anything can be your HP " claim, there is nothing individual about the 12 steps, and one can't revise them while still claiming to be an adamant member of AA. I still stand by my opinion, though, that SMART is almost completely, if not completely, based upon Ellis's theories, including his distaste and scorn over any form of religious practice. Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 7, 2001 Report Share Posted July 7, 2001 Hi Nick -- Yes, RR and the reality (for a great many) of self-recovery certainly does fit in with Jewish belief. The reason I did not mention it is because my focus was on those who desire " support groups " -- I personally don't, many others don't, but then again many people do. I think a major shortcomimg of Trimpey is to lump ALL support groups for substance abuse problems into *one* thing, and scorn them all. Too often steppers say things like " well, if someone can stop drinking without any group or outside help, great for them, but I need a group, so that's why I came to AA " -- my point is that no one should FORCE themselves to try to fit in with AA when it doesn't feel right (on logical grounds, religious grounds, whatever) just because they want/need group support and believe AA is the only thing out there. I also see most " Secular Humanist " ideas as compatible with the Reform and especially Reconstructionist branches of Judaism, by the way. JRR's Biblical quotes and religious references are too heavy-handed for my taste, and most of them are exclusively Christian. ~Rita > Rita, > > Just wondering why you left RR out of the organizations with beliefs that don't contradict Judaism. The bimonthly RR journal occasionally cites Biblical passages supporting RR's simple yet unique ideology, that is, looking at addiction from a *moral* standpoint. I think that of all of them, RR is clearly the one that can " fit " with any legitimate religion best. SMART doesn't kick out any members who state their religion (as far as I know), however, the organization is clearly secular humanist, which is really atheist. I do believe that one's religion is irrelevant to recovering, so I can envision religious individuals fitting in SMART. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2001 Report Share Posted July 8, 2001 Kayleigh is taking umbrage, " I find posts like this extremely offive. Am i alone in this? " Nope. I am put off by the ad hominem stuph. has some valuable things to share, but the ad homimen attacks weaken his arguments. Not that one can't say, " Hey, I *really* think you're wrong about this. " That's fine. But the sarcasm, the strawmen, the name-calling is another matter. Cheers, nz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2001 Report Share Posted July 9, 2001 Hi cool people, Long time no see. Of course this is offensive. If you found one twelve step clinic in a whole country of Jewish people, and thousands (one twelve step clinic in every tiny town) in a predominantly Christian country, then I think you've proved Rita's point all by your self. > > > > > > > > How about 12-Step inpatient treatment in Israel? > > > > > > > > Just write to " Ha Derech - Substance Abuse and 12-Step > > Center, " > > > > located at Kibbutz Gesher Ha Ziv, Israel. > > > > > > > > And, YES, '12-Step Center' is actually part of the official > > title > > > > of the facility. (I found it through a google search, during > > which > > > > my total time invested on all this stuff amounted to 45 minutes > - > > > > versus about 3 years or so of Rita's baloney). > > > > > > > > It doesn't take long to check facts - IF you want the facts, > > > > instead of self-serving B.S. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2001 Report Share Posted July 9, 2001 WB CG. He's been in the habit, for some time now, of pointing to " some " jews, he feels are spokes persons for their entire community, and spring boarding that, somehow, into most Jews have been infected with the 12 step spiritual virus. Rita, on the other hand, has repeatedly stated that there are " some " Jews that see no conflict between XAism practice and Judaism. He keeps pointing to that " some " and insisting it proves most Jews are like minded. No doubt there are a couple hundred thousand XA types online now and I would venture to say it wouldn't be terribly difficult for me to find pro XA literature. I wouldn't/couldn't correlate that with everyone online has been infected with the proffered spiritual virus (XA). IIRC, as I haven't been following it, errr.. religiously, this discussion was originally about whether or not XAism was compatible with Judaism. ( I have no doubt someone will correct me if I'm mistaken) Once Rita began pointing out doctrinal differences in philosophy she was tagged as a sophist (the definition with the decidedly negative connotation no doubt)and the discussion magically transformed into " does the American Jewish community, accept XAism. As I've pointed out above he's been using the comments of " some " Jews, he feels are spokes persons for their entire community, to attempt to prove his point that the American Jewish Community has been infiltrated by the XA spiritual virus. Which, as I've also stated above seems to me to be somewhat like using the comments of " some " online steppers to point to an assumption that the entire country/world has been infected with the XA spiritual virus. - Re: Jews/AA #3 - - - Hi cool people, - Long time no see. Of course this is offensive. If you found one -twelve step clinic in a whole country of Jewish people, and thousands -(one twelve step clinic in every tiny town) in a predominantly -Christian country, then I think you've proved Rita's point all by -your self. - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 OK. First, no, Judaism is not compatible with XAism. Of course, however, it is impossible to practice either (or any other) Ism perfectly, so you can practice both at the same time by practicing both imperfectly, if you want to. Any person who wants to can practice any combination of Isms they want to... this is how Christian steppers who rely on numerology and astrology (aka fucked- up people) come about. The tenets of XAism (namely the HP as we understand him) actually make this option much more simple than they were before! It makes a mish mash of religions and beliefs " acceptable " . I suspect most Ism leaders, regardless of which Ism it is, do not want their followers practicing Isms that contradict their own rules/teachings/ideas. So this supports Rita, who said most Jewish leaders do not support XAism. * ** Second, given the incompatability of these two Isms (Jew and XA), it follows that it must be harder for a Jew to become ensnared by XAism than a Christian. A typical Christian already believes most of the BS that XAism pushes than does a typical Jew, no matter which definition you are using. It is safe to say Bill W was catering to Christians, and not Jews, since A he was Christian, and B most Jews weren't known to have drinking problems. More points for Rita. Third, and this is the place where the humble and eloquent one (no, I am not refering to myself) scores half a point merely by luck. XAism, Judaism, Christianity are indeed all the same thing - he apparently doesn't have the words in his vocabulary, or doesn't realize he does - so the thought he is trying to express is coming out incorrectly, and causing this argument. *** * The fact that these Jewish leaders do not denounce XAism publicly doesn't mean they don't privately. Perhaps Rita would know more about that than an outsider. OTOH, the lack of denunciation by these Jewish leaders can also be seen as acceptance. To an anti- stepper, they are either with us or against us, and if they don't seem to be with us, then since 99% of the world is (seemingly) against us, we assume they are also. But it is still an assumption - something the antagonist in this argument seems to make a lot of. So a couple undeserved points for the eloquent and humble one. ** The Christian leaders do not see XAism as a threat to their own Ism, because it is an extension of it, in fact a necesarry outgrowth (and may be the eventual replacement) of Christianity. XA has been and will continue to be Christianity's salvation. If you are questioning that then think that a world modernizing with the powerful states of the world abandoning the combination of church and state... XAism is how the church has been tied back to the state, without which the church (and quite probably any current state) could not survive. I guess that's just common knowledge though. XAanity and whatever future evolutions will forever stifle humanity until it is destroyed. That is sad. *** The reader could be saying WTF. Well, I've already spent more than enough time here... but why is the word of Moses, Abraham, Job or , Mark, Luke, any more acceptable than the word of Bill W? Its not. These are all words of men, thought, said, written, passed on by men, and being accepted as something more than what they are. These are all Isms. Its easy to see the errors in another Ism, but not in those that have trapped you. " I can't give that up " or " I can't let that go. " And the sad truth is maybe you can't. Poor Rita. That hurts. > > WB CG. > > He's been in the habit, for some time now, of pointing to " some " jews, he > feels are spokes persons for their entire community, and spring boarding > that, somehow, into most Jews have been infected with the 12 step spiritual > virus. > > Rita, on the other hand, has repeatedly stated that there are " some " Jews > that see no conflict between XAism practice and Judaism. > > He keeps pointing to that " some " and insisting it proves most Jews are like > minded. No doubt there are a couple hundred thousand XA types online now > and I would venture to say it wouldn't be terribly difficult for me to find > pro XA literature. I wouldn't/couldn't correlate that with everyone online > has been infected with the proffered spiritual virus (XA). > > IIRC, as I haven't been following it, errr.. religiously, this discussion > was originally about whether or not XAism was compatible with Judaism. ( I > have no doubt someone will correct me if I'm mistaken) Once Rita began > pointing out doctrinal differences in philosophy she was tagged as a sophist > (the definition with the decidedly negative connotation no doubt) and the > discussion magically transformed into " does the American Jewish community, > accept XAism. As I've pointed out above he's been using the comments of > " some " Jews, he feels are spokes persons for their entire community, to > attempt to prove his point that the American Jewish Community has been > infiltrated by the XA spiritual virus. Which, as I've also stated above > seems to me to be somewhat like using the comments of " some " online steppers > to point to an assumption that the entire country/world has been infected > with the XA spiritual virus. > > > - Re: Jews/AA #3 > - > - > - Hi cool people, > - Long time no see. Of course this is offensive. If you found one > -twelve step clinic in a whole country of Jewish people, and thousands > -(one twelve step clinic in every tiny town) in a predominantly > -Christian country, then I think you've proved Rita's point all by > -your self. > - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 It would appear that we both stand accused of having misstated others positions. I will say for my part that I believe you've misstated my statement of your position just now. I'm Interested in Rita's take on my original position at this point. Would you mind reposting or forwarding offline your initial post on this issue? - Re: - - - - - - - - You have absolutely misstated my position. - I NEVER said all persons of Jewish heritage were attracted to Stepping. Nor did I say that this is what you stated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2001 Report Share Posted July 10, 2001 Yes I'm well aware of that. However, it's extremely difficult to do since you have a tendency to constantly change the subjects which makes tracking down any particular subject rather difficult. It also happens to be why I'm changing them back to the original when I'm responding to you in this particular case. I have no interest in tracking it down any longer. My opinion of your exchanges stands. - Re: -> - -> - -> - -> - -> - - -> - -> - You have absolutely misstated my position. -> -> - I NEVER said all persons of Jewish heritage were attracted to -> Stepping. -> -> Nor did I say that this is what you stated. - - - - - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2001 Report Share Posted July 11, 2001 ------Original Message----- -From: ernst17us@... - You have an 'opinion', I tell you it is dead wrong, When in the process of telling me, you misquote me, I tend to not pay attention to what you're telling me. My original statement stands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2001 Report Share Posted July 11, 2001 All righty then quote me where I posted that you stated " all " Jews did anything. ------Original Message----- -From: ernst17us@... - - The dispute I had with Rita was not over whether ALL Jews think -like Twerski, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2001 Report Share Posted July 11, 2001 > > > > WB CG. > > > > He's been in the habit, for some time now, of pointing to " some " > jews, he > > feels are spokes persons for their entire community, and spring > boarding > > that, somehow, into most Jews have been infected with the 12 step > spiritual > > virus. > > > > Rita, on the other hand, has repeatedly stated that there > are " some " Jews > > that see no conflict between XAism practice and Judaism. > > > > He keeps pointing to that " some " and insisting it proves most Jews > are like > > minded. No doubt there are a couple hundred thousand XA types > online now > > and I would venture to say it wouldn't be terribly difficult for me > to find > > pro XA literature. I wouldn't/couldn't correlate that with > everyone online > > has been infected with the proffered spiritual virus (XA). > > > > IIRC, as I haven't been following it, errr.. religiously, this > discussion > > was originally about whether or not XAism was compatible with > Judaism. ( I > > have no doubt someone will correct me if I'm mistaken) Once Rita > began > > pointing out doctrinal differences in philosophy she was tagged as > a sophist > > (the definition with the decidedly negative connotation no doubt) > and the > > discussion magically transformed into " does the American Jewish > community, > > accept XAism. As I've pointed out above he's been using the > comments of > > " some " Jews, he feels are spokes persons for their entire > community, to > > attempt to prove his point that the American Jewish Community has > been > > infiltrated by the XA spiritual virus. Which, as I've also stated > above > > seems to me to be somewhat like using the comments of " some " online > steppers > > to point to an assumption that the entire country/world has been > infected > > with the XA spiritual virus. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2001 Report Share Posted July 11, 2001 Hi Rita I am curious as to whether Jews are more or less likely to join OA than non-Jews. I meet several in OA, of varying levels of observance (generally on the low side I think). I think I have written about how I told one about your objection to steppism and having initially denied there was a problem, as I tried to explain your position he became increasingly willing to accept it. Funnily enough, I had a chance to have a Jew for my 3rd sponsor but I'd had enough of spnsors by that time. Pity perhaps - she undoubtedly sounded far more helpful than the other two. P. > > > > > > WB CG. > > > > > > He's been in the habit, for some time now, of pointing to " some " > > jews, he > > > feels are spokes persons for their entire community, and spring > > boarding > > > that, somehow, into most Jews have been infected with the 12 step > > spiritual > > > virus. > > > > > > Rita, on the other hand, has repeatedly stated that there > > are " some " Jews > > > that see no conflict between XAism practice and Judaism. > > > > > > He keeps pointing to that " some " and insisting it proves most Jews > > are like > > > minded. No doubt there are a couple hundred thousand XA types > > online now > > > and I would venture to say it wouldn't be terribly difficult for me > > to find > > > pro XA literature. I wouldn't/couldn't correlate that with > > everyone online > > > has been infected with the proffered spiritual virus (XA). > > > > > > IIRC, as I haven't been following it, errr.. religiously, this > > discussion > > > was originally about whether or not XAism was compatible with > > Judaism. ( I > > > have no doubt someone will correct me if I'm mistaken) Once Rita > > began > > > pointing out doctrinal differences in philosophy she was tagged as > > a sophist > > > (the definition with the decidedly negative connotation no doubt) > > and the > > > discussion magically transformed into " does the American Jewish > > community, > > > accept XAism. As I've pointed out above he's been using the > > comments of > > > " some " Jews, he feels are spokes persons for their entire > > community, to > > > attempt to prove his point that the American Jewish Community has > > been > > > infiltrated by the XA spiritual virus. Which, as I've also stated > > above > > > seems to me to be somewhat like using the comments of " some " online > > steppers > > > to point to an assumption that the entire country/world has been > > infected > > > with the XA spiritual virus. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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