Re: Re: Who's at fault? (was: AA lunacy)

[Guest guest]

ahicks@... wrote:

> Oh, thank you...I know the world isn't as it " should " be either. I

> just don't think the student or the heroin user owe " amends " to

> anyone. I don't think they need to feel even less about who they are

> just because they've been victimized by some creep. But, that is what

> AA would have us believe.

>

It is? Funny, I never heard that one. Can you show me in the literature

where it says that rape victims need to make amends to the rapists?

Or that robbery victims owe amends to the robbers?

This is just absurd.

>

> I also was trying to make the point with Rob that AA specifically

> enjoins the student and the herion user to " look for their part "

> without saying *anything* to the professor or the thief.

>

I think the AA P.O.V. is that people (especially addicts) don't

need any encouragement to blame others. People are naturally

very good at that already - the phrase " duck to water " comes

to mind.

It is harder in general for people to look at their own part.

And this is a generalization. Some people have the opposite

problem. For them, 12 step programs are probably bad

medicine.

Still, many people who would benefit from a little less

blame-throwing & a little more responsibility-taking

resist it tooth & nail.

R

[Guest guest]

In New Jersey it is a criminal sexual assault to take advantage of any

person who is incapacitated and unable to convey consent to a sex act. That

means intoxicated women or men, hospital patients who are comatose, and it

is the basis of the statutory rape laws of New Jersey.Possibly even if a

man has sex with his wife while she is sleeping(although I am certain the

vice - versa would not ever be prosecuted) and she wakes up angry, LOL. It

should be added, however, that New Jersey is a cesspool of lawyers and

bankers and others who do no work, as well as politicians(another good

example). Mike.

Re: Who's at fault? (was: AA lunacy)

>

> > is talking about who is responsible if a man rapes a woman who

> is drunk and passed

> > out. This is in response to the story about the guy who was robbed

> while being nodded out

> > on heroin.

> >

> > asserts that the fault lies with the perpetrator.

> >

> > So far I agree.

> >

> > And then goes on to state that the vicims of these sorts of

> crimes do not deserve to

> > be victimized, whether they are drunk or not. " But even if they had

> been drinking, is

> > this a license in your view?

> > For anyone to go whatever they want? Believe me, this dynamic is

> > alive and *well* in our culture. No. I don't care if a woman drank

> > herself into near coma, she doesn't deserve to be raped. Even if

> she

> > is a prostitute, even if she was wearing a short skirt, even if she

> > was out after dark. "

> >

> > I still agree with this.

> >

> > But here's where I start to part company just a little. Speaking of

> the heroin user who

> > was robbed, writes, " Or maybe he will go to his friend's house

> that he trusts and

> > employ a bit of

> > harm/risk management. But no...he shouldn't HAVE to do that. "

> >

> > I would agree that he shouldn't HAVE to do that. Where I part

> company is with the concept

> > of " should " . Yes, he shouldn't have to do that, but the fact is

> that he is going to get

> > robbed if he doesn't take precautions. Women shouldn't be raped,

> but the fact is that

> > women do get raped. Women ought to be able to walk anywhere, any

> time of the day or

> > night; but the reality is we can't..

>

> And this sucks, is all I'm saying.

> >

> > Ideally there are all sorts of conditions that shouldn't be

> happening, and things that

> > ought to be happening instead. Shit, Piss, and Industrial Waste!!!

> I should be safe in

> > my own damn home, but the reality is that I'm not.

> >

> > This is not to let perps off the hook. This is not to say it's okay

> to rape and steal

> > because the victim was out walking late at night. It's not okay.

> I'm not saying it's the

> > victim's fault because s/he didn't take precautions.

> >

> > What I am saying is that I would rather not be robbed or raped, so

> there are places I am

> > not going to go, and things I'm not going to do. It's a shame it

> has to be that way, but

> > I have to make a choice between dealing with unpleasant reality as

> it is; and behaving as

> > if the world were the way it " should " be.

>

> Oh, thank you...I know the world isn't as it " should " be either. I

> just don't think the student or the heroin user owe " amends " to

> anyone. I don't think they need to feel even less about who they are

> just because they've been victimized by some creep. But, that is what

> AA would have us believe.

>

> I also was trying to make the point with Rob that AA specifically

> enjoins the student and the herion user to " look for their part "

> without saying *anything* to the professor or the thief.

>

> Of course, my own actions are proscribed even further than any of

> these. I have kids. Duh, I have to keep them safe to the best of my

> ability from all comers. There are definitely places we don't go.

> But, it isn't right...it is fucked up...and should be challenged at

> every turn.

>

> Cheers,

> >

> > nz, who hates to disagree with ...

>

> You sweetie...I don't like to disagree with you either, you always

> state what I was thinking in a way that makes sense.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I seriously doubt anyone at an AA or NA meeting would ask a person who was

clearly victimized by another person such as a teacher demanding sex for a

passing grade, or someone lifting someone's money out of their pocket to

look at their own part- well maybe they would say 'what do you expect

hanging around drug dens' but that would not be saying that the thief was

not culpable for his actions. Mike.

Re: Re: Who's at fault? (was: AA lunacy)

>

>

> ahicks@... wrote:

>

> > Oh, thank you...I know the world isn't as it " should " be either. I

> > just don't think the student or the heroin user owe " amends " to

> > anyone. I don't think they need to feel even less about who they are

> > just because they've been victimized by some creep. But, that is what

> > AA would have us believe.

> >

>

> It is? Funny, I never heard that one. Can you show me in the

literature

> where it says that rape victims need to make amends to the rapists?

> Or that robbery victims owe amends to the robbers?

>

> This is just absurd.

>

> >

> > I also was trying to make the point with Rob that AA specifically

> > enjoins the student and the herion user to " look for their part "

> > without saying *anything* to the professor or the thief.

> >

>

> I think the AA P.O.V. is that people (especially addicts) don't

> need any encouragement to blame others. People are naturally

> very good at that already - the phrase " duck to water " comes

> to mind.

>

> It is harder in general for people to look at their own part.

>

> And this is a generalization. Some people have the opposite

> problem. For them, 12 step programs are probably bad

> medicine.

>

> Still, many people who would benefit from a little less

> blame-throwing & a little more responsibility-taking

> resist it tooth & nail.

>

> R

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

suggests that victims of abuse should not be expected to make amends to

their

abusers. Rob asks, " Can you show me in the literature where it says that

rape victims

need to make amends to the rapists? Or that robbery victims owe amends to the

robbers? "

I don't know about " literature " , but I learned from attending step meetings and

hearing

other AA's talk that I owed amends to people who had hurt *me*. Somehow it was

my fault

that they had hurt me. Somehow I'd brought it on myself. Somehow I'd made them

do it.

If I got hurt, I'd caused it in some way.

So like a good AA I went and made amends to a very disturbed person who had

abused me when

I was vulnerable. This person was so arrogant and comtemptuous of me, and used

my making

of amends as yet another opportunity to treat me like shit.

I was a good AA member. I didn't use the incident as an excuse to drink. I

stayed sober.

Yuk...I'm not going to apologise to abusers again.

Regards,

nz

[Guest guest]

At 05:20 AM 7/2/01 -0000, ahicks@... wrote:

>

>

>Hi z,

>>

>> I don't know about " literature " , but I learned from attending step

>meetings and hearing

>> other AA's talk that I owed amends to people who had hurt *me*.

This is definitely, absolutely in the oral tradition, but I don't

think it's actually written (at least not directly) in the literature.

I suspect the idea comes from this paragraph [big book p. 62, my

underlining]:

Selfishness - self­centeredness! That, we think, is the

root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of

fear, self­delusion, self­seeking, and self­pity,we step

on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Some­

times they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but

we invariably find that at some time in the past we

^^^^^^^^^^

have made decisions based on self which later placed

us in a position to be hurt.

Whenever someone hurts an alcoholic, it is ALWAYS in retaliation

for something the alcoholic did. So there it is, according to the big

book, anytime someone hurts you, it's because you hurt them first, and

so (later, in step 9) you owe them amends for hurting them.

>Somehow it was my fault

>> that they had hurt me. Somehow I'd brought it on myself. Somehow

>I'd made them do it.

>> If I got hurt, I'd caused it in some way.

>>

>> So like a good AA I went and made amends to a very disturbed person

>who had abused me when

>> I was vulnerable. This person was so arrogant and comtemptuous of

>me, and used my making

>> of amends as yet another opportunity to treat me like shit.

>>

>> I was a good AA member. I didn't use the incident as an excuse to

>drink. I stayed sober.

>>

>> Yuk...I'm not going to apologise to abusers again.

>

>Thank you for confirming that this happens. I saw it more than once

>during my " tenure " in AA. I made amends to the boss who coerced me

>into treatment and my face still burns with shame when I recall it.

I now recall this to be one of the most confusing things in my first

couple of years in AA. I was going over my eigth/ninth step with my

second sponsor, and I had my first sponsor's name as someone to whom

I owed amends. I put his name on it because I resented him [with good

reason, but that wasn't important at the time]. I'd heard (many times

in meetings, but I couldn't find a written reference for it) that if

you resent someone, you did something to them and you owe them some

amends [never mind the backwards logic here].

My sponsor asked what I did to my first sponsor, I couldn't think

of anything (and I couldn't explain the 'logic' of why I had his name

on the list), so he said I didn't owe him amends. That let me off the

hook as far as making amends to the first sponsor, but left me more

confused about the program.

There were an incredible number of ways in AA for people to take

responsibility for things that hurt them. I recall someone talking

about his fourth and fifth step. He said he and his sponsor went over

his resentments, and of all of them there was only one he didn't have

a part in, and that was in kindergarden.

>Talk to you later,

>

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

I sent this last night but I didn't see it show up on the list:

At 05:20 AM 7/2/01 -0000, ahicks@... wrote:

>

>

>Hi z,

>>

>> I don't know about " literature " , but I learned from attending step

>meetings and hearing

>> other AA's talk that I owed amends to people who had hurt *me*.

This is definitely, absolutely in the oral tradition, but I don't

think it's actually written (at least not directly) in the literature.

I suspect the idea comes from this paragraph [big book p. 62, my

underlining]:

Selfishness - self­centeredness! That, we think, is the

root of our troubles. Driven by a hundred forms of

fear, self­delusion, self­seeking, and self­pity,we step

on the toes of our fellows and they retaliate. Some­

times they hurt us, seemingly without provocation, but

we invariably find that at some time in the past we

^^^^^^^^^^

have made decisions based on self which later placed

us in a position to be hurt.

Whenever someone hurts an alcoholic, it is ALWAYS in retaliation

for something the alcoholic did. So there it is, according to the big

book, anytime someone hurts you, it's because you hurt them first, and

so (later, in step 9) you owe them amends for hurting them.

>Somehow it was my fault

>> that they had hurt me. Somehow I'd brought it on myself. Somehow

>I'd made them do it.

>> If I got hurt, I'd caused it in some way.

>>

>> So like a good AA I went and made amends to a very disturbed person

>who had abused me when

>> I was vulnerable. This person was so arrogant and comtemptuous of

>me, and used my making

>> of amends as yet another opportunity to treat me like shit.

>>

>> I was a good AA member. I didn't use the incident as an excuse to

>drink. I stayed sober.

>>

>> Yuk...I'm not going to apologise to abusers again.

>

>Thank you for confirming that this happens. I saw it more than once

>during my " tenure " in AA. I made amends to the boss who coerced me

>into treatment and my face still burns with shame when I recall it.

I now recall this to be one of the most confusing things in my first

couple of years in AA. I was going over my eigth/ninth step with my

second sponsor, and I had my first sponsor's name as someone to whom

I owed amends. I put his name on it because I resented him [with good

reason, but that wasn't important at the time]. I'd heard (many times

in meetings, but I couldn't find a written reference for it) that if

you resent someone, you did something to them and you owe them some

amends [never mind the backwards logic here].

My sponsor asked what I did to my first sponsor, I couldn't think

of anything (and I couldn't explain the 'logic' of why I had his name

on the list), so he said I didn't owe him amends. That let me off the

hook as far as making amends to the first sponsor, but left me more

confused about the program.

There were an incredible number of ways in AA for people to take

responsibility for things that hurt them. I recall someone talking

about his fourth and fifth step. He said he and his sponsor went over

his resentments, and of all of them there was only one he didn't have

a part in, and that was in kindergarden.

>Talk to you later,

>

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Hi ,

I thought you might be interested to read some official 12-step

program literature that specifically encourages its members

*not* to look for *their own part* in something bad that

happened to them. Of course, this isn't AA...

http://www.siawso.org

" THE WELCOME:

An Introduction to:

Survivors of Incest Anonymous

We welcome you to Survivors of Incest Anonymous and hope you will find

here the hope, camaraderie and recovery that we have been privileged to

experience.

We are a self-help group of women and men, 18 years or older, who are

guided by a set of 12 Suggested Steps and 12 Traditions,

....

We learn in SIA not to deny, that we did not imagine the incest, nor

was it our fault in any way. The abuser will go to any Length to shift

the responsibility to the defenseless child, often accusing the child

of being seductive. We had healthy, natural needs for love, attention

and acceptance, and we often paid high prices to get those needs met,

but we did not seduce our abuser. Physical coercion is rarely necessary

with a child, since the child is already intimidated. The more gentle

the attack, the more guilt the victim inappropriately carries. We also

learn not to accept any responsibility for the attacks even if they

occurred over a prolonged period of time. Some of us are still being

sexually assaulted.

.... "

R

[Guest guest]

Hmm. My understanding of "amends" is very different

from this...

"Amends" means looking for situations where, say

for example,

I stole somebody's car & sold it (maybe for

drug money).

Then I should pay them back by a> replacing or paying

for

the car, and b> admitting to them that I was the

one that stole it -

possibly taking my lumps with the authorities as

a result.

Apologies are not "amends." Apologies are just lame.

If, on the other hand, somebody stole *my* car,

I would not owe *them* an amends - not even if they

stole it "because" I left the door wide open &

the keys in

the ignition when I was in a drunken stupor. Not

even if

they got caught & went to prison and got raped

as a

(indirect) result.

I also don't hand my power over to the people who

have

wronged me by standing around tapping my foot waiting

for them to get recovery & give *me* my amends.

R

wrote:

suggests that victims of abuse should not be

expected to make amends to their

abusers. Rob asks, "Can you show me in the literature

where it says that rape victims

need to make amends to the rapists? Or that robbery

victims owe amends to the robbers?"

I don't know about "literature", but I learned from attending step meetings

and hearing

other AA's talk that I owed amends to people who had hurt *me*.

Somehow it was my fault

that they had hurt me. Somehow I'd brought it on myself.

Somehow I'd made them do it.

If I got hurt, I'd caused it in some way.

So like a good AA I went and made amends to a very disturbed person

who had abused me when

I was vulnerable. This person was so arrogant and comtemptuous

of me, and used my making

of amends as yet another opportunity to treat me like shit.

I was a good AA member. I didn't use the incident as an excuse

to drink. I stayed sober.

Yuk...I'm not going to apologise to abusers again.

Regards,

nz

[Guest guest]

This group says the individual can choose between the traditional AA

steps and inventory and " adapted " 12 steps that express less self-loathing:

http://www.siawso.org/12steps.htm

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves, the abuse,

and its effects on our lives. We have no more secrets.

..5. Admitted to a loving Higher Power, to ourselves, and to another human

being our strengths and weaknesses.

..6. Were entirely ready to have a loving Higher Power help us remove all the

debilitating consequences of the abuse and became willing to treat ourselves

with respect, compassion and acceptance.

..7. Humbly and honestly asked a loving Higher Power to remove the unhealthy

and self-defeating consequences stemming from the abuse.

..8. Made a list of all the people we may have harmed (of our own free will),

especially ourselves and our innerchild, and became willing to make amends

to them all.

..9. Made amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would

result in physical, mental, emotional or spiritual harm to our-selves or

others.

10. Continued to take responsibility for our own recovery and when we found

ourselves behaving in patterns still dictated by the abuse, promptly

admitted it. When we succeed, we promptly enjoy it.

-- Bob

----- Original Message -----

<snip>

> I thought you might be interested to read some official 12-step

> program literature that specifically encourages its members

> *not* to look for *their own part* in something bad that

> happened to them. Of course, this isn't AA...

>

> http://www.siawso.org