Re: Powerlessness (was: Who's here and why )

June 27, 2001

wrote:

> Even as I write this post I see the Wednesday night step meeting in my mind's

eye, and I

> can see S. sitting there, and the look on his face, and I can hear his tone of

voice as he

> says for the umpteenth time, " I can't do anything. God does everything. " And

I see F.

> over on the other side of the table, he's kinda looking up (whereas S. tends

to look down

> and to his left) when he speaks, " The only thing an alcoholic knows how to do

is drink.

> You gotta have God... " And I look around the table and I see other members

nodding in

> agreement. As the discussion progresses around the table, other members

assert their

> inability to do anything except get drunk Some use the word, " powerless " ,

while others

> merely imply it. The talk takes the form of all-or-nothing, black-or-white

statements. I

> can see that there is a social acceptance for going along with the talk. We

can build a

> sense of community by affirming and contributing to this general consensus.

Hmmm. I went to some AA meetings & saw this kind of thing. I might give that

sort of meeting a second chance, but if it was consistently dominated by

this type

of stuff I wouldn't give it a third. If the " groupthink " of a meeting was so

oppressive

that I didn't see clear individual differences I'd go somewhere else.

I didn't put it in those terms at that time - it was just that the people

who had

what I wanted were not the sort of people to go along completely with any

herd. If mostly I saw people going with the herd, I wouldn't see the types

I wanted to hang out with.

It's nice to have options. In smaller towns you may not.

I think I gravitated towards NA because there were more of the people

I wanted to hang with there. I never got hassled for having a " drug lead "

at any AA meeting, and I definitely had lots of trouble with alcohol.

So much so that I still don't drink.

>

> Now it's another meeting, and there's a bit of discomfort here. Someone has

made an

> accomplishment. I see another member shaking his head and cautioning, " You

don't want to

> feel too good about yourself here. If you do, you'll think you can drink

again. "

This is something that's completely foreign to my experience of the program.

I never heard anything like this. People were generally completely

supportive

in this situation.

> And there were the middle steps. Day after day the middle steps affirmed that

my

> character is so defective that only God can remove the stain. Day in, day

out, week in,

> week out, year in, year out, my defects of character, my defective alcoholic

character,

> humbly ask God to remove my shortcomings.

Hmm - I'll have to look & see if I can find my official NA 4th step guide

that's

gathering dust in some basement somewhere. I recall pretty clearly that it

says

something to the effect of:

Your personal inventory should not be a laundry list of defects. You should

list

character assets as well. You should include good things and bad. The most

important thing is self-honesty, and it would be dishonest to leave out the

good stuff.

>

> Rob, it sounds as if my AA experience in the '70's and '80's was different

from what

> you've experienced in NA (and I gather your experience is recent). I really

did feel

> powerlessness presented to me in both overt and covert ways, by both direct

assertion and

> by indirect suggestion. And I really did hear people being blamed for their

mistakes over

> and over again. I heard repeatedly for 12 years that we have alcoholic

personalities and

> defective characters, and that it's only God who can remove our shortcomings

and get us

> sober.

I drifted away completely from program about a year ago. I started in '83.

I suppose I've understated my time - the last chip I picked up was a 17

year chip.

> ... Taking credit for some of the bad stuff is

> a way to avoid repeating mistakes. A way to *take power*. "

>

> Rob, I agree with you entirely. But that's *not* what is happening in AA.

Well, for some people that *is* exactly what's happening in AA.

For others it's not. There are people who will never accomplish anything

greater than *not (X)-ing for umpteen years*. They live in meetings

& you see a ton of them. They have little or no life outside of meetings,

they're at 2 meetings every day, and it's very important to them that the

only valid measure of " goodness " be (X)-free-time & perhaps number

of sponsees.

The kind of old-timers that I liked were the ones who cleaned up &

actually got lives as a result. Because they have lives, they're a little

harder to find. They don't have quite as much time for meetings -

maybe two or three a week. Maybe less. They're a little quieter

& not as quick with the pat program answers for every question.

They also don't want to sponsor as many people as they possibly

can - again, they have lives.

> I agree, and then I go on to say that there were *plenty* of obnoxious people

in the

> program, trumpeting their good fortune in my face! ... Just see how

> God has saved them from their own character defects and rewarded them so

richly! I heard

> *plenty* of that stuff.

Sure - people do this kind of thing backhanded all the time ...

>

> How did your experience differ? It sounds as if your meeting are very

different from the

> ones I used to go to.

Last meeting I went to regularly was an 11th step meeting.

The meeting was held by candlelight & began with ten minutes of

silence, followed by the Serenity Prayer. In all prayers in this

meeting, the word God has been removed. So our Serenity

Prayer begins with the word " Grant " , not the word " God " .

After that, people shared individually on the 11th step or whatever they

wanted to talk about. In SFNA in general, cross-talk is not permitted.

Other programs/areas (AA/ Wash DC) define cross-talk as interrupting

another persons share. In this area, NA defines cross-talk as interupting,

*or commenting on and/or giving advice about another person's share*.

In other words, you 're not supposed to comment on what another person

has said in any NA meeting around here.

So - people mostly talk about themselves, what's going on in their lives.

Sometimes people ask for advice. If anybody has any, it's given privately

after the meeting, not publicly during the meeting.

The close is the 11th step prayer, beginning with " Take my Will ... "

not " God, take my Will ... "

This meeting went really well for about two years, then a large

group of new people from some other meeting came in together.

They were generally rowdy & didn't quite get the tone of this

meeting. They started chanting " keep coming back, it works if

you work it so work it cause you're worth it " like a chorus line

of cheerleaders at the end. That wrecked it for me.

Now I go to a non-program kind of meeting that consists almost

entirely of a half-hour of candlelit silence. The ten minutes at the

beginning were my favorite part anyway.

R

June 27, 2001

Hi!

Have been reading Your posts with interest nz and thought I'd put in my 2 cents worth.

Now, my life had always been a mess, my alcohol use was intermittent, but had increased gradually over the last few years, though it never felt out of control. I was afraid of everything and rarely slept and drinking in the evenings helped with that. When I hit thirty I 'remembered' the abuse I'd suffered as a child and 3 months after that I stopped drinking of my own free will and decided to start dealing with stuff now I knew what the problem was.

I was never coerced into XA either, but chose to go, based on information from a friend who had recently begun attending AA meetings. She told me that I needed to stay off the booze to deal with my past and that AA would help, so I went.

Vulnerable, scared and with no sense of self whatsoever I was overwhelmed by the friendliness and interest shown me in meetings, so I went back. I became a total groupie, five meetings a week, a sponsor, washed up cups, etc..

My sponsor had me 'working' the steps immediately and I spent the next three years following her every word. During that time I was still having flashbacks from my childhood and was in a lot of emotional pain. My sponsor actively discouraged me from getting therapy, 'the 12 step program is all you need'. She said that no way should I take any medication for my anxiety and panic and as part of my step four she had me look for my part in the abuse I suffered as a child. My fears were 'my part' apparently, (I know now that fear was a normal response to horrendous circumstances, there is NO 'my part'), as was disappearing for long walks in order to keep safe for a few hours. It wasn't important that doing a step four on this stuff dragged up more memories because 'this too will pass'.

Despite the fact that I was frequently a mess everyone liked me, but then, I never criticised the program, was always willing to put my feelings and dysfunctional behaviour down to my insanity and frequently could be heard saying, 'well, I'm just another mad alcoholic'. I actually ended up believing that if I was a 'normal' person dealing with abuse issues I'd be able to handle it better. My sponsor told me that I needed to let go of it, that I struggled with it cos I was an alcoholic and that I needed to concentrate on the alcoholism rather than the past.

In the end I fell apart, my job went and I couldn't pay my rent. I had never felt so alone and desperate in my entire life. 3 years in AA doing all they asked of me and I felt worse and all they cared about was that I hadn't drunk. That's when I started to question things.

For a few months I looked for alternatives but said nothing. Then I went to my sponsor with some ideas that might help me. She told me she could no longer sponsor me, that 'I was in denial, really fucked up and would drink again'. At the next meeting I was verbally attacked by someone my 'sponsor had spoken to without asking me and they all stood by and watched. That was it, I stopped going. Only one of them stays in touch with me, she hates the program but is too scared to leave cos she's terrified of drinking again and totally believes the 'powerless over alcohol' bit.

Anyway, I made some choices. Got myself in therapy, got myself housed and though it took me til last month to do it cos I was so indoctrinated, I finally went to my doc and am now on Prozac and I am beginning to feel better. The panic is easing and I can now deal with the anxiety way better. I wish I'd known years ago that SSRI's don't stop you feeling, it would've saved me so much pain. Just to be able to do normal things while I go through the worst of this helps so much.

I have also found that I can have an occasional beer, in fact I can't drink more than a half cos I like the taste but don't like the effect that drinking more has. I suspect that finding other ways to deal with stuff means that I don't need to blur the edges anymore. Have also discovered that when I was a 'newbie' my sponsor was telling people that she wasn't sure I was an alcoholic, all the while using all that I told her as evidence that I was one. Words fail me!

Have to say that I am mad as hell with AA and probably will be for sometime and that's okay with me for now, but then have only been out of there for a few months.

I'm not powerless over alcohol or loads of other stuff and my life is not unmanageable, in fact I think I manage amazingly well. Am no longer mad at me for buying into their bullshit, am real pissed at them for really doing some damage when I was in real need of support though.

It's amazing though, in the short time I've been out of AA I have discovered I like me, I believe in me, can trust my head and I am very sane.

I'm doing okay despite XA.

Didn't mean to go on so long, but feel better after that.

Cheers,

Kate

June 27, 2001

Kate wrote:

" I wish I'd known years ago that SSRI's don't stop you feeling, it

would've saved me so much pain. Just to be able to do normal things

while I go through the worst of this helps so much. "

It is because of expereinces like yours (and mine) that I get so

pissed with the Mandolin's of this world. They say they are all for

giving ppl the facts, whereas the sad truth is that ppl are making

decisions not take meds often not knowing anything about them but

the propoganda of ppl who say " they just want to make profits out of

keeping you doped up " . God alone knows how much avoidable suffering

results from this. It is also odd that these ppl usu hold personal

experience supreme over scientific data, yet they urge ppl not to

actually *get* some personal experience and to try meds to see if they

help them for themselves. Though some meds are habit forming, you

dont get habituated during a short trial period. There's no reason at

all why ppl shouldn't at least give them a try and then make a

decision actually *knowing* what the meds do for them, not just

hearing scare stories from others.

P.

June 27, 2001

Absolutely Pete!

I was always told in AA that SSRI's were 'mood altering chemicals' and was

terrified of taking them. But, my anxiety level was way above normal for

years and all Prozac's done is begin to bring it nearer to normal, which,

when you have a diagnosis of PTSD, really helps.

Actually, it was lurking and reading yours and Mona's posts that finally

convinced me to go talk to my doc about it. Don't worry tho, am totally

responsible for my own choices, LOL!

Kate

June 27, 2001

HI Kate

Well glad to find I may have been of assistance.

I am aware that I do have a rather unnattractive tendency to get

extremely pissed, sarcastic, and foul-mouthed in such debates which

are probably not helpful attributes in the beauty contests known as

debate. Hence I may actually be the best advocate the opposition have

actually got. The fact that this is only ever in repsonse to the

almost exclusively ad hominem nature of the other's arguments (all

expressed with condescending concern of course)hardly makes any

difference in terms of the superfluous appeal to a third party who may

have missed the opening exchanges. A little acceptance of my own

powerlessness over others might be in order.

P.

> Actually, it was lurking and reading yours and Mona's posts that

finally

> convinced me to go talk to my doc about it. Don't worry tho, am

totally

> responsible for my own choices, LOL!

>

> Kate

June 28, 2001

,

This is so perfect. Perfectly said, perfectly right. Ok, I'm printing this

one out. I might even send it to poo anonymously!!!

Bravo!

lisak

Powerlessness (was: Who's here and why )

> Rob wondered if we were all no more than " ...a group of angry & bitter

people who never

> understood what 12-step programs are about. " I asked what it is that I do

not understand.

> Rob responded, " Well, here's one - the " powerlessness " thing. "

>

> From Rob, " Never in my entire time in NA did anyone suggest that I

> was powerless over everything, that I had absolutely no

> control over my own life & destiny, that my own actions

> didn't matter.

>

> Nor did people suggest that I should take no credit for

> the good things (those are all from HP) that have

> happened in my life & take all the credit for the crap

> (those are all my " disease " ). "

>

> I'm speaking from experience primarily in AA, as well as AlAnon and

Overeaters Anonymous.

> Nine years in central PA, and three years more or less (no clear ending

date, I went less

> and less and finally stopped) in NY State. From March of 1975 till I

drifted off some

> time around 1987 or thereabouts.

>

> Nobody ever quite sat me down, looked me in the eye, and declared, " You

are powerless over

> everything and have absolutely no control over your life, " in those exact

words.

>

> Rather, it was lots and lots of other stuff.

>

> Even as I write this post I see the Wednesday night step meeting in my

mind's eye, and I

> can see S. sitting there, and the look on his face, and I can hear his

tone of voice as he

> says for the umpteenth time, " I can't do anything. God does everything. "

And I see F.

> over on the other side of the table, he's kinda looking up (whereas S.

tends to look down

> and to his left) when he speaks, " The only thing an alcoholic knows how to

do is drink.

> You gotta have God... " And I look around the table and I see other

members nodding in

> agreement. As the discussion progresses around the table, other members

assert their

> inability to do anything except get drunk Some use the word, " powerless " ,

while others

> merely imply it. The talk takes the form of all-or-nothing,

black-or-white statements. I

> can see that there is a social acceptance for going along with the talk.

We can build a

> sense of community by affirming and contributing to this general

consensus.

>

> Now there's a Friday night meeting, and they're giving out chips and

medallions. One

> after another, up they come to receive their award, one after another

these glowing,

> smiling faces, one after another, these testimonies that it is God who did

it. They

> didn't do anything, they couldn't do anything, it was God who did it, God

and the

> Fellowship and the Big Book.

>

> Now it's another meeting, and there's a bit of discomfort here. Someone

has made an

> accomplishment. I see another member shaking his head and cautioning,

" You don't want to

> feel too good about yourself here. If you do, you'll think you can drink

again. " The one

> with the accomplishment looks unhappy at this, and another member

explains, " If you get

> too confident in your own abilities, you'll forget that you're powerless. "

Around the

> table I see heads nodding in agreement.

>

> Now it's a Friday night speaker's meeting again. The Town Drunk is

sharing tonight, and

> he's all wound up. He tells a rousing tale of whoop-de-doo drunken

binges, and how he got

> into fights and smashed up the bar, broken glass *everywhere*, got tossed

in the drunk

> tank in jail, oh boy, I'm on the edge of my seat, it's quite a rip-snorter

of a story.

> And now he's saved! He saw the light. God got him sober and he's been

sober for eleven

> years now, and wow, now he has a job, thanks to God and this Program, and

his wife came

> back because of the Higher Power. He's actually made a good

accomplishment, turning his

> life around like that, but he takes no credit for his own efforts. He

disowns his own

> work in this and gives all credit to God.

>

> And next week it's the same thing. Someone relates a number of

accomplishments, but is

> quick to assure us that s/he had nothing whatsoever to do with it. It was

all God and the

> Big Book and the Program. I see people who are doing a lot of good things

with their

> lives, making really good accomplishments, living good lives actually -

but they disown

> their part in their good fortune. The belittle themselves and give all

the credit to the

> Higher Power and the Fellowship in these Rewms.

>

> Medallion night again. This time my partner is there, and he gets a chip.

He doesn't

> thank God. He looks at the chip, kind of grins, and says, " Hey...*I* did

this... " People

> don't particularly like this. There are some queasy expressions on faces.

He didn't

> affirm that he did nothing, the Program and God did everything... Things

are kind of

> awkward for a moment, till the next person comes up, gets a medallion and

glowingly thanks

> God for doing it all. After the meeting someone takes my partner aside

and mutters

> something at him about humility. I see some scowling faces.

>

> These are scenes I participated in over and over again, day after day,

week after week,

> year after year.

>

> Always the meeting began with reading the steps. We admitted we were

powerless over

> alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable. True, actually, my

drinking did go out

> of control, and there was a degree of unmanageablility about my own life

(although I never

> once failed to show up for work, or failed to take care of my family, or

failed to pay the

> bills), but I kept asserting this powerlessness and unmanageability day

after day for over

> twelve years. Somehow this continued step recitation at the beginning of

each meeting

> kept the powerlessness alive and never quite allowed it to be a temporary

problem.

> Although the powerlessness was specifically over alcohol, the assertion

that our lives had

> become unmanageable implied that we were powerless over our lives and

behavior as well.

> Day after day, powerless and unmanageable.

>

> And because alcoholism is a progressive, incurable, lifelong disease I can

only get worse

> and worse. I can never gain any personal power, ever. I can only survive

by the Grace of

> God.

>

> And there were the middle steps. Day after day the middle steps affirmed

that my

> character is so defective that only God can remove the stain. Day in, day

out, week in,

> week out, year in, year out, my defects of character, my defective

alcoholic character,

> humbly ask God to remove my shortcomings.

>

> Remove the shortcomings *myself*?

>

> Are you kidding??? You're an alcoholic, and the only thing an alcoholic

knows how to do

> is drink!! God is the one who removes your character defects!! If you

get too confident,

> you'll drink again!! You don't want to get to feeling too good there!

You're an alcoholic

> and you can't afford that!

>

> And all this is coming at me so lovingly! Here's a cup of coffee, here's

a hug. Here's

> all the Love and Warmth in These Rewms. Here's fellowship for you. Here

are kind and

> loving people who will listen and understand. Those wonderful glowing

faces, those

> friendly smiles, those warm fuzzies, all that feeling of belonging.

There's such an

> incredible *reward* for going along with the belief system. There's such

great peer

> pressure here, loving and affirming peer pressure, but peer pressure

nevertheless.

>

> Notice the ritualizing at the meetings, notice the nodding agreement.

Notice how one

> person says something early in the meeting, and how this is followed by so

many " me, too "

> statements. It didn't feel so much like genuine speech as ritualized

speech. We were

> performing a ceremony, and we were following certain well defined (yet not

explicitly

> acknowledged) moves and playing certain roles.

>

> (And there's another topic for another post. I came to see that there are

certain roles

> one plays in the group. It's like watching a play. Here we are watching

" Hamlet " , and

> maybe it's Sir ce Olivier playing Hamlet, or maybe Branagh,

but Hamlet

> always says, " To be or not to be. " Here's Ophelia, and it doesn't matter

which actress

> plays her part, she always drowns, and no matter who plays the evil king

(both

> and i have done truely splendid jobs at this), the king

always kills

> his brother. And the same actor can play different roles. i

was Hamlet back

> when he was young, with as the king (BBC production). Now

that he's

> older, he is the evil king, with Branagh as Hamlet. I noticed

that the same thing

> was happening in AA. There are certain roles, and these roles remain

consistent, the

> ceremony remains consistent. People come in and take a particular role.

Some people stay

> in the same role throughout, while others move through a sucession of

roles in this

> ongoing pageant.

>

> Am I the only one who noticed this? Anyone else here ever get the

realization that they

> are in a play, following a ritual, a ceremony, and taking a role? Anybody

else see that

> this is a dance we're doing?)

>

> And such a dreadful fate for those who resist the peer pressure. A

hideous alcoholic

> fate, getting worse and worse, till I'm in jail, in the nuthouse, or dead

in the gutter.

> Such warm acceptance on the one side of the fence, and such a cold horror

on the other.

>

> And the powerlessness just soaks in, kind of like osmosis. It's there

behind the smiles,

> the friendly cup of coffee, undermining me, undermining any accomplishment

I make. It's

> so damned hypnotic! This reassuring ceremony, these well-known moves and

roles, the hugs

> and warm fuzzies, the acceptance that comes hand in hand with my asserting

my own

> defectiveness.

>

> Man, did that ever mess with my head! Love and powerlessness go together.

>

> But woe betide anyone who screwed up in any way. That was your choice.

You chose to do

> that. You chose to drink, you chose to make a mess.

>

> Rob, it sounds as if my AA experience in the '70's and '80's was different

from what

> you've experienced in NA (and I gather your experience is recent). I

really did feel

> powerlessness presented to me in both overt and covert ways, by both

direct assertion and

> by indirect suggestion. And I really did hear people being blamed for

their mistakes over

> and over again. I heard repeatedly for 12 years that we have alcoholic

personalities and

> defective characters, and that it's only God who can remove our

shortcomings and get us

> sober.

>

> Rob goes on to say, and I'm editing to keep this post from being even

longer than it is

> already, " ...when bad things happen, it *is* often useful to look at

> what I could have done differently...if I see something I can change

to get a

> different result

> - then I have POWER. Taking credit for some of the bad stuff is

> a way to avoid repeating mistakes. A way to *take power*. "

>

> Rob, I agree with you entirely. But that's *not* what is happening in AA.

It's not about

> seeing where I made a mistake and how to avoid making that mistake in the

future. It's

> about repeating a religious belief, participating in a ceremony, asserting

a

> black-and-white dogma, about affirming my inherent defectiveness, my

inherent

> powerlessness. It's like Original Sin. No matter how hard I try, no

matter how much I

> do, I'm always inherently originally sinful, and only God can save me.

>

> Rob again, " Also, when good things happen, it is good to look at the

actions which

> led to them and (quietly) take credit as appropriate. BUT - it is also

> good to recognize that there is an element of chance in all this. "

>

> No argument with this. This makes sense.

>

> Rob then says, " It's also just " nicer " (better character) to be humble

in the face

> of success. Ever had somebody trumpet their good fortune in

> your face? It's always obnoxious, but especially so when things

> aren't going so well for you...Being obnoxious makes people dislike

> you, and being disliked mostly reduces your chance of success in

> anything involving other people. "

>

> I agree, and then I go on to say that there were *plenty* of obnoxious

people in the

> program, trumpeting their good fortune in my face! Look how blessed they

are! Look what

> God is doing for them! Just look at how humble they are, and how God

rewards their

> humility! Just see how powerless they are! Just see what drunks they

are! Just see how

> God has saved them from their own character defects and rewarded them so

richly! I heard

> *plenty* of that stuff.

>

> How did your experience differ? It sounds as if your meeting are very

different from the

> ones I used to go to.

>

> Regards,

>

> nz

>

June 28, 2001

/Rob/All,

So you know what MY big problem with all this is? In forced XA, a person

never knows

what the hell type of meeting they may attend. It may be more palatable as

Rob seems to have

experienced, and it may be a pukefest, as seems to have experienced.

What makes me so

damn angry is, (and this is something I tossed to Poo-head), there is no

consistency. The law is

forcing people to go to XA meetings where there is no guarantee of anything.

It could be a way

cool place to hang, or it could be a like a bad hang-over. Poo's response

was (after he pulled the

AA directory out of his drawer for such occasions and gifted it to my

husband) if you don't like one

meeting, try another, and keep looking til you find one.

SO, my response is, what if it takes my hubby the entire 2 years of his

probation to find (or

never find) a meeting that he can stomach? Would the judge forgive a dirty

UA? Hell no, it's back

to jail you go. " but your Honor, I havn't found an AA meeting that I like

yet " . " oh, well, in that

case, keep looking! " . Yeah, like that'll happen. Luckily, my husband had

made up his mind without

AA to crutch him, and luckily (?) he has already decided he'll go to jail

rather than attend another

damn meeting. Do we want him to go to jail. No, but we are adults who can

handle it, and it's

better than giving in to " them " .

I'm happy for you Rob, and sad for you , and glad we can wring out the

truth about it all.

lisak

Re: Powerlessness (was: Who's here and why )

>

> wrote:

>

> > Even as I write this post I see the Wednesday night step meeting in my

mind's eye, and I

> > can see S. sitting there, and the look on his face, and I can hear his

tone of voice as he

> > says for the umpteenth time, " I can't do anything. God does

everything. " And I see F.

> > over on the other side of the table, he's kinda looking up (whereas S.

tends to look down

> > and to his left) when he speaks, " The only thing an alcoholic knows how

to do is drink.

> > You gotta have God... " And I look around the table and I see other

members nodding in

> > agreement. As the discussion progresses around the table, other members

assert their

> > inability to do anything except get drunk Some use the word,

" powerless " , while others

> > merely imply it. The talk takes the form of all-or-nothing,

black-or-white statements. I

> > can see that there is a social acceptance for going along with the talk.

We can build a

> > sense of community by affirming and contributing to this general

consensus.

>

> Hmmm. I went to some AA meetings & saw this kind of thing. I might

give that

> sort of meeting a second chance, but if it was consistently dominated

by this type

> of stuff I wouldn't give it a third. If the " groupthink " of a meeting

was so oppressive

> that I didn't see clear individual differences I'd go somewhere else.

>

> I didn't put it in those terms at that time - it was just that the

people who had

> what I wanted were not the sort of people to go along completely with

any

> herd. If mostly I saw people going with the herd, I wouldn't see the

types

> I wanted to hang out with.

>

> It's nice to have options. In smaller towns you may not.

>

> I think I gravitated towards NA because there were more of the people

> I wanted to hang with there. I never got hassled for having a " drug

lead "

> at any AA meeting, and I definitely had lots of trouble with alcohol.

> So much so that I still don't drink.

>

> >

> > Now it's another meeting, and there's a bit of discomfort here. Someone

has made an

> > accomplishment. I see another member shaking his head and cautioning,

" You don't want to

> > feel too good about yourself here. If you do, you'll think you can

drink again. "

>

> This is something that's completely foreign to my experience of the

program.

> I never heard anything like this. People were generally completely

supportive

> in this situation.

>

> > And there were the middle steps. Day after day the middle steps

affirmed that my

> > character is so defective that only God can remove the stain. Day in,

day out, week in,

> > week out, year in, year out, my defects of character, my defective

alcoholic character,

> > humbly ask God to remove my shortcomings.

>

> Hmm - I'll have to look & see if I can find my official NA 4th step

guide that's

> gathering dust in some basement somewhere. I recall pretty clearly

that it says

> something to the effect of:

>

> Your personal inventory should not be a laundry list of defects. You

should list

> character assets as well. You should include good things and bad. The

most

> important thing is self-honesty, and it would be dishonest to leave

out the

> good stuff.

>

> >

> > Rob, it sounds as if my AA experience in the '70's and '80's was

different from what

> > you've experienced in NA (and I gather your experience is recent). I

really did feel

> > powerlessness presented to me in both overt and covert ways, by both

direct assertion and

> > by indirect suggestion. And I really did hear people being blamed for

their mistakes over

> > and over again. I heard repeatedly for 12 years that we have alcoholic

personalities and

> > defective characters, and that it's only God who can remove our

shortcomings and get us

> > sober.

>

> I drifted away completely from program about a year ago. I started in

'83.

> I suppose I've understated my time - the last chip I picked up was a

17

> year chip.

>

> > ... Taking credit for some of the bad stuff is

> > a way to avoid repeating mistakes. A way to *take power*. "

> >

> > Rob, I agree with you entirely. But that's *not* what is happening in

AA.

>

> Well, for some people that *is* exactly what's happening in AA.

>

> For others it's not. There are people who will never accomplish

anything

> greater than *not (X)-ing for umpteen years*. They live in meetings

> & you see a ton of them. They have little or no life outside of

meetings,

> they're at 2 meetings every day, and it's very important to them that

the

> only valid measure of " goodness " be (X)-free-time & perhaps number

> of sponsees.

>

> The kind of old-timers that I liked were the ones who cleaned up &

> actually got lives as a result. Because they have lives, they're a

little

> harder to find. They don't have quite as much time for meetings -

> maybe two or three a week. Maybe less. They're a little quieter

> & not as quick with the pat program answers for every question.

> They also don't want to sponsor as many people as they possibly

> can - again, they have lives.

>

> > I agree, and then I go on to say that there were *plenty* of obnoxious

people in the

> > program, trumpeting their good fortune in my face! ... Just see how

> > God has saved them from their own character defects and rewarded them so

richly! I heard

> > *plenty* of that stuff.

>

> Sure - people do this kind of thing backhanded all the time ...

>

> >

> > How did your experience differ? It sounds as if your meeting are very

different from the

> > ones I used to go to.

>

> Last meeting I went to regularly was an 11th step meeting.

>

> The meeting was held by candlelight & began with ten minutes of

> silence, followed by the Serenity Prayer. In all prayers in this

> meeting, the word God has been removed. So our Serenity

> Prayer begins with the word " Grant " , not the word " God " .

>

> After that, people shared individually on the 11th step or whatever

they

> wanted to talk about. In SFNA in general, cross-talk is not permitted.

> Other programs/areas (AA/ Wash DC) define cross-talk as interrupting

> another persons share. In this area, NA defines cross-talk as

interupting,

> *or commenting on and/or giving advice about another person's share*.

> In other words, you 're not supposed to comment on what another person

> has said in any NA meeting around here.

>

> So - people mostly talk about themselves, what's going on in their

lives.

> Sometimes people ask for advice. If anybody has any, it's given

privately

> after the meeting, not publicly during the meeting.

>

> The close is the 11th step prayer, beginning with " Take my Will ... "

> not " God, take my Will ... "

>

> This meeting went really well for about two years, then a large

> group of new people from some other meeting came in together.

> They were generally rowdy & didn't quite get the tone of this

> meeting. They started chanting " keep coming back, it works if

> you work it so work it cause you're worth it " like a chorus line

> of cheerleaders at the end. That wrecked it for me.

>

> Now I go to a non-program kind of meeting that consists almost

> entirely of a half-hour of candlelit silence. The ten minutes at the

> beginning were my favorite part anyway.

>

> R

>

June 28, 2001

glad you're here, you sound perfectly sane and able to me. Even though I tend to concentrate on the "forced" issue of AA, it's folks like you who get me so spitten mad and fired up to want to git-out-there and EXPOSE it for what it is. They are good at what they do and you should not at all feel bad about buying into it for a while. Sounds to me like you figured out what it is REALLY about and that your true sanity and spirit got you OUT of there. I'm a firm believer that abuse of alcohol or drugs or food or whatever is what causes problems, not the other way around. Anything outside the problems caused by alcohol should be dealt with appropriately, and appropriately does not mean XA. You'll do fine. Glad to have you aboard.

(oh, and by the way, for those on our posts who like to get technical with semantics, I am not saying that non-abuse of substances would mean no problems. I'm a Trimpey-ite in that I believe that one should control (or stop) the substance that is causing problems, and then deal with lifes real problems on their own merit. RR'ers know what I'm getting at here, I think.)