Guest guest Posted June 21, 2001 Report Share Posted June 21, 2001 Does not compute............Does anyone know?.........................................Why does self- sufficiency / rational thinking, conflict with 'faith'. Did AA mess- up anyone else's 'belief' system? If so, how did you come to terms with that. What do you tell the kids? All the stuff we were trying to teach you, is a lie, a joke, totally unknown. My kids need comfort right now---if I throw shadows on their belief system, that will just cause more pain. Their father was very much into 'God' when he died....for them to have doubts and question things would mean being disloyal. It's all so sad. At night, we would all say 'slept with angels'....I can no longer say that. We also have lots of bibles around here--like their dad, they quote from it. I just want to scream. So far, I don't believe it anymore. My head tells me it's a trick...just a more conflicting way to keep people in line. Inspired by the holy spirit ---sorta like the big book. Just a little (lot) more complicated. Also think that something in my mind changed while being involved with AA---had to do with lots of things (meditating, prayer, stress, powerlessness, and probable lots more.) Has anyone done any studying on this. About what happens in the mind. And what type of books can one find. Finding books on AA, drugs, alcohol that didn't involve 12-steps was very tricky----so I'm quite sure this is even more tricky......I know it is, already have started to look and ask around, what a mess. Any thoughts or ideas would love to hear. netty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2001 Report Share Posted June 22, 2001 Hi, Netty I can offer some of the things that I've learned since I abandoned the 12-step program, and some ideas that I've carried for a long time. > Does not compute............Does anyone > know?.........................................Why does self- > sufficiency / rational thinking, conflict with 'faith'. Did AA mess- > up anyone else's 'belief' system? If so, how did you come to terms > with that. First, I do not believe that self-sufficiency and rational thinking is in conflict with " faith. " Regardless of one's religious beliefs, we all act on a degree of faith. This is nothing more than making assumptions about the outcome of future events based on past experience and probability. From the time you get up in the morning, you put your feet on the floor - you have " faith " that the floor has not vanished during the night, in other words faith on it's most basic level is just assuming the obvious. That is why I become rabid and foam at the mouth every time I hear some idiot recite that stupid " never assume... makes an ass out of u & me. " Everyone makes thousands of assumptions every day if you make no assumptions you would be unable to function. On this level " faith " is very rational, and need for proof of everything, every step of the way is absurd, and practically impossible. There is a conflict with rational thought and the type of faith that is not based on past experience and praobability. Dogmatic, absolutist thinking is not rational. For example; " some guy that died about 2000 years ago is going to come back to life and save us " this is an example of " delusional thinking. " In regards to AA damaging my belief system, I don't think it did any serious damage, I spent ten years in and out of that program, but most of it I took with a grain of salt. I had some sponsers, but never for a long time, and never had one that I was really impressed with. I will say that it was refreshing to abandon that program, it felt like a huge opressive weight had been lifted off of me. What do you tell the kids? All the stuff we were > trying to teach you, is a lie, a joke, totally unknown. My kids > need comfort right now---if I throw shadows on their belief system, > that will just cause more pain. Their father was very much > into 'God' when he died....for them to have doubts and question > things would mean being disloyal. It's all so sad. At night, we > would all say 'slept with angels'....I can no longer say that. We > also have lots of bibles around here--like their dad, they quote from > it. I just want to scream. So far, I don't believe it anymore. My > head tells me it's a trick...just a more conflicting way to keep > people in line. Inspired by the holy spirit ---sorta like the big > book. Just a little (lot) more complicated. Also think that > something in my mind changed while being involved with AA---had to do > with lots of things (meditating, prayer, stress, powerlessness, and > probable lots more.) With children, I think it is very important to allow them to persue thier own spiritual path. They may ask questions like; " why did you stop going to those meetings? " in which case just an honest, simple answer would do. I reccomend not making a big deal about it and make it clear that they are free to make these decisions for themselves. Has anyone done any studying on this. About > what happens in the mind. And > what type of books can one find. Finding books on AA, drugs, alcohol > that didn't involve 12-steps was very tricky----so I'm quite sure > this is even more tricky......I know it is, already have started to > look and ask around, what a mess. Any thoughts or ideas > would love to hear. netty A classic is " Why I Am Not A Christian " by Bertrand Russel. Straight forward, easy to read, and enjoyable. " Letters From The Earth " by Mark Twain. Funny and entertaining - more satire than philosophy. For alternative recovery, a good place to start would be " Many Paths - One Journey " by Charlotte Casl. " The Small Book " by Jack Trimpey contains some good insight, I personaly don't agree with 48.23% of what he has to say. Most of all, go forth with a new freedom, you are no longer restricted to " approved literature " read ANYTHING you want to. Devin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2001 Report Share Posted June 22, 2001 At 04:52 AM 6/22/01 -0000, caenemy@... wrote: >people in line. Inspired by the holy spirit ---sorta like the big >book. Just a little (lot) more complicated. Also think that >something in my mind changed while being involved with AA---had to do >with lots of things (meditating, prayer, stress, powerlessness, and >probable lots more.) Has anyone done any studying on this. About >what happens in the mind. And >what type of books can one find. Finding books on AA, drugs, alcohol >that didn't involve 12-steps was very tricky----so I'm quite sure >this is even more tricky......I know it is, already have started to >look and ask around, what a mess. Any thoughts or ideas >would love to hear. netty About five to ten years ago I read every library book I could find on cults. That helped a lot in explaining what happened to me. In a later message you mentioned the Kasl book, it has a good bibliography. I recall one book named " Leaving the Fold " , it was about getting out of the usual Christian church/group but seemed to apply well to AA also. There are actually three books with the title " Leaving the Fold " on bookfinder.com - the one I read was written by Winell. ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 22, 2001 Report Share Posted June 22, 2001 > > >people in line. Inspired by the holy spirit ---sorta like the big > >book. Just a little (lot) more complicated. Also think that > >something in my mind changed while being involved with AA---had to do > >with lots of things (meditating, prayer, stress, powerlessness, and > >probable lots more.) Has anyone done any studying on this. About > >what happens in the mind. And > >what type of books can one find. Finding books on AA, drugs, alcohol > >that didn't involve 12-steps was very tricky----so I'm quite sure > >this is even more tricky......I know it is, already have started to > >look and ask around, what a mess. Any thoughts or ideas > >would love to hear. netty > > About five to ten years ago I read every library book I could find on > cults. That helped a lot in explaining what happened to me. In a later > message you mentioned the Kasl book, it has a good bibliography. > I recall one book named " Leaving the Fold " , it was about getting out > of the usual Christian church/group but seemed to apply well to AA also. > There are actually three books with the title " Leaving the Fold " on > bookfinder.com - the one I read was written by Winell. > > ---------- > http://listen.to/benbradley Thanks for the info, now I have a couple of new books to check on. And I've never heard of either. Have read some on cults. Most of them are from church folk.....you know the rest of the story. Really liked Hassan--Combatting Cult Mind Control. Oh...another really good one was by Mc--What to Do When Your Guru Sues You-LIFE102. And he throws in some humor--it was great. But, the part about what happens to the workings of the mind....no one has any answers. Some of those famous people, ,and that Jung Doung guy,(can't remember his name) a couple others too. They take it just so far , then go off on some tangent, and don't follow through with what they started.....so fustrating. Unless, of course I missed something, cause it was some of the most difficult reading and comprehending I've ever challenged---besides all the mixed messages in the bible--which no-one could ever explain either. Anyway, have two new books to read, that should keep me busy for awhile. Thanks again for your suggestion. netty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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