Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

[Guest guest]

Hi

Dont worry about losin' it. Y'know, I've even been known to do that

myself occasionally.

Tell me, if you dont mind me asking, is your stepson's conviction in

any way drug or alcohol related? If not, what the hell does what your

hubby does matter as h=far as his son is concerned? Alsom surely Mr

Pooh' sole areas of responsibility is with hubby himself, not nursing

hubby's son. Whether his father is a suitable visitor is surely a

matter for the prison Governor or someone associated with the son, not

Mr Pooh. I gues youre gonna tell me that the Governor checks your

hubby out by asking Mr Pooh and hence that's the handle Winnie has.

Best of luck to all of you. God/Whatever/Nothing Bless.

P.

> Nazi seems harsh, but then again... not.

>

> The last time we met w/ the PO (I pronounce it " POOH " !-- haha) we

asked about alternatives to AA and 12 step treatment. He informed us

there is none. ( I of course had done some homework so called him on

it). He backpeddled a bit by saying, WEELLLLLL, here in Washington

State the WAC (Washington Adminsitrative Code) does not allow non-12

step treatment or any other groups other than AA, so you won't be

successful with the judge. (I have read a lot of the WAC but have yet

to find where 12step/AA is mandated by law. It could be, but I just

have not found it...) And anyways, even if you did find an alternative

like REBT, or SMART (he obviously has done HIS homework... NOT) all

they talk about in meetings is football or other non-alcohol related

topics, then they sign your slip and call it a meeting. You will not

find help in those meetings, you will always come back to AA. AA is

the only thing that works.

>

> Okay, so I love it when gov't employees give themselves rope to hang

themselves with. My hubby and I let him ramble on and on. All the

while I was taking mental notes. He went on further to tell my huband

that the reason he (my hubby) can not visit his son in prison is cuz

my hubby had not worked the steps hard enough and my husband is a bad

influence on his own son. The kid's in prison for 10 years and my

HUSBAND with the 4 year old DUI is a bad influence on him.? OH MY GOD!

>

> SO, this morning, after a long nite of helping my husband pen the

letter stating his alternative treatment plan (which I'll post parts

of if anyone is interested but won't without being solicited to do so)

we met with Pooh-head. Pooh asked, " so what's new? " . My husband

responded... " nothing " . Then handed the letter to Poo-head and said

" this is my treatment plan " .

> Poo says, " you mean the COURTS treatment plan " .

> Hubby: " no, my alternative treatment plan. AA doesn't work for me,

like we talked about last time " .

> Poo: " Just tell me what the letter says " .

> Hubby: " that I won't go to AA and...... it's all in the letter " .

>

> Poo: Do you have AA slips for me?

> Hub: No (it is not court mandated yet).

> Poo, acting tickled pink that he's " GOT " my husband: " oooooo---- k,

but it IS court mandated "

> Hub: No it's not. I was released on my own PR with no conditions.

> Poo: No you weren't. (He throws us an old court paper that has

been superceded. ) He continues: The judge ordered you to AA.

> Hub: No he didn't. (hubby points to copy of the newer order that

is in effect) THAT's my release order and it has NO conditions.

> Poo, snidely chuckles: oooooo-k, just trying to clarify things for

you here. You know I'll have to report this to the judge.

> lisak gets pissed off here and grabs the old paper and points and

reads the statement that says that the AA is imposed ONLY if my

husband is released into INPATIENT treatment. Which he was NOT. The

NEW release has NO conditions. The LETTER states he will NOT attend

AA. ( I hate it when I lose it like that... I'm supposed to be better

than this nurt)

> Poo: I'm just the middle man. By the way, we need to talk about our

last meeting and the letter you wrote me afterwards (we send him

registered letters which restate what was said to ensure agreement and

cover our asses). I somehow mislead you and did not intend to tell

you that AA is the ONLY thing that works.

> Hub: Well, I recall that that is what you said

> Poo: No that is not what I said. I said AA works.

> Hub: No it doesn't.

> Poo: AA WORKS.

> Hub: No it doesn't.

> Poo: We can have our opinions on this, but AA works if you work it.

> Hub: Yes we can have our opinions on this, but... It didn't work

for ME.

> Poo: You didn't work it. Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up.

I did not say it's the ONLY thing that works.

> lisak: that's what I recall, and anyway, that is why my husband

wrote you the letter to ensure we all understand what is being stated

here.

> Poo: Ok Craig, ready to submit a urine sample?

> Hub: OK. (this was not court mandated either, but hubby accepted

UA's as his alternative treatment plan, plus he does not have anything

to hide, thus he submitted)

>

> End of chapter. He is trying hard to force my husband to attend AA,

to threaten my husband that by not attending he is going against the

judges orders, which so far there are no orders in effect. he's such

a jerk. He was all nicey-nice last appt. when he still thought my

husband was going to go to the meetings. But as SOON as my husband

stated he would not be going and would rather try an alternative or

face jail, poo-head showed his true colors. He's an AA-Nazi. He's

two-hatting, as Mr. Trimpey would say. He's a representative of the

state of Washington and he's pushing AA on my husband so hard it's not

funny. He's admitted to being in AA and insists that AA is the only

way. I'm sure he showed the judge our registered letter and the judge

told him he better not be saying that AA is the ONLY way. Too late.

And, he's holding AA over my husbands head so that he can not visit

his son in prison. We are writing the city mayor now to tell him we

are taking legal action if the PO doesn't knock off the AA or no visit

garbage. Should be interesting. I'm sure poo will tell the judge

that my husband is being resistent to treatment, is uncooperative,

will not follow the PO's recommendations and therefore should NOT be

considered to do the alternative treatment and either be FORCED to

attend AA and 12 step inpatient/outpatient or go back to jail. I hope

that is what happens cuz that's exactly where we want him. He should

not be doing this. It's plain wrong. He should be caught. He should

be punished. IMHO.

>

> sorry it was so long.

> lisak

[Guest guest]

good god! Everytime I read one of these stories, it seems worse

than the last one. Nazi is not far off, really.

-- In 12-step-free@y..., " Kasper " <kasperkarma@h...> wrote:

> Nazi seems harsh, but then again... not.

>

> The last time we met w/ the PO (I pronounce it " POOH " !-- haha) we

asked about alternatives to AA and 12 step treatment. He informed us

there is none. ( I of course had done some homework so called him on

it). He backpeddled a bit by saying, WEELLLLLL, here in Washington

State the WAC (Washington Adminsitrative Code) does not allow non-12

step treatment or any other groups other than AA, so you won't be

successful with the judge. (I have read a lot of the WAC but have

yet to find where 12step/AA is mandated by law. It could be, but I

just have not found it...) And anyways, even if you did find an

alternative like REBT, or SMART (he obviously has done HIS

homework... NOT) all they talk about in meetings is football or other

non-alcohol related topics, then they sign your slip and call it a

meeting. You will not find help in those meetings, you will always

come back to AA. AA is the only thing that works.

>

> Okay, so I love it when gov't employees give themselves rope to

hang themselves with. My hubby and I let him ramble on and on. All

the while I was taking mental notes. He went on further to tell my

huband that the reason he (my hubby) can not visit his son in prison

is cuz my hubby had not worked the steps hard enough and my husband

is a bad influence on his own son. The kid's in prison for 10 years

and my HUSBAND with the 4 year old DUI is a bad influence on him.? OH

MY GOD!

>

> SO, this morning, after a long nite of helping my husband pen the

letter stating his alternative treatment plan (which I'll post parts

of if anyone is interested but won't without being solicited to do

so) we met with Pooh-head. Pooh asked, " so what's new? " . My

husband responded... " nothing " . Then handed the letter to Poo-head

and said " this is my treatment plan " .

> Poo says, " you mean the COURTS treatment plan " .

> Hubby: " no, my alternative treatment plan. AA doesn't work for

me, like we talked about last time " .

> Poo: " Just tell me what the letter says " .

> Hubby: " that I won't go to AA and...... it's all in the letter " .

>

> Poo: Do you have AA slips for me?

> Hub: No (it is not court mandated yet).

> Poo, acting tickled pink that he's " GOT " my husband: " oooooo----

k, but it IS court mandated "

> Hub: No it's not. I was released on my own PR with no

conditions.

> Poo: No you weren't. (He throws us an old court paper that has

been superceded. ) He continues: The judge ordered you to AA.

> Hub: No he didn't. (hubby points to copy of the newer order that

is in effect) THAT's my release order and it has NO conditions.

> Poo, snidely chuckles: oooooo-k, just trying to clarify things for

you here. You know I'll have to report this to the judge.

> lisak gets pissed off here and grabs the old paper and points and

reads the statement that says that the AA is imposed ONLY if my

husband is released into INPATIENT treatment. Which he was NOT. The

NEW release has NO conditions. The LETTER states he will NOT attend

AA. ( I hate it when I lose it like that... I'm supposed to be better

than this nurt)

> Poo: I'm just the middle man. By the way, we need to talk about

our last meeting and the letter you wrote me afterwards (we send him

registered letters which restate what was said to ensure agreement

and cover our asses). I somehow mislead you and did not intend to

tell you that AA is the ONLY thing that works.

> Hub: Well, I recall that that is what you said

> Poo: No that is not what I said. I said AA works.

> Hub: No it doesn't.

> Poo: AA WORKS.

> Hub: No it doesn't.

> Poo: We can have our opinions on this, but AA works if you work it.

> Hub: Yes we can have our opinions on this, but... It didn't work

for ME.

> Poo: You didn't work it. Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up.

I did not say it's the ONLY thing that works.

> lisak: that's what I recall, and anyway, that is why my husband

wrote you the letter to ensure we all understand what is being stated

here.

> Poo: Ok Craig, ready to submit a urine sample?

> Hub: OK. (this was not court mandated either, but hubby accepted

UA's as his alternative treatment plan, plus he does not have

anything to hide, thus he submitted)

>

> End of chapter. He is trying hard to force my husband to attend

AA, to threaten my husband that by not attending he is going against

the judges orders, which so far there are no orders in effect. he's

such a jerk. He was all nicey-nice last appt. when he still thought

my husband was going to go to the meetings. But as SOON as my

husband stated he would not be going and would rather try an

alternative or face jail, poo-head showed his true colors. He's an

AA-Nazi. He's two-hatting, as Mr. Trimpey would say. He's a

representative of the state of Washington and he's pushing AA on my

husband so hard it's not funny. He's admitted to being in AA and

insists that AA is the only way. I'm sure he showed the judge our

registered letter and the judge told him he better not be saying that

AA is the ONLY way. Too late. And, he's holding AA over my husbands

head so that he can not visit his son in prison. We are writing the

city mayor now to tell him we are taking legal action if the PO

doesn't knock off the AA or no visit garbage. Should be

interesting. I'm sure poo will tell the judge that my husband is

being resistent to treatment, is uncooperative, will not follow the

PO's recommendations and therefore should NOT be considered to do the

alternative treatment and either be FORCED to attend AA and 12 step

inpatient/outpatient or go back to jail. I hope that is what happens

cuz that's exactly where we want him. He should not be doing this.

It's plain wrong. He should be caught. He should be punished.

IMHO.

>

> sorry it was so long.

> lisak

[Guest guest]

>

> good god! Everytime I read one of these stories, it seems worse

> than the last one. Nazi is not far off, really.

Hi,

One of the reasons that I truly prefer " religious " to " spiritual " is

that unlike you, most people are much more " open " to spiritual beliefs

than religious ones. And, even withall, there *are* laws on the books

regarding the separation of church and state. (But not necessarily

spirituality and state???!) ((Help!))

I am not trying to obscure the facts. I really think AA is a

religion.

Regarding your fruit analogy...what I see is people saying " We don't

care what kind of fruit you eat. But you must eat fruit. Further,

the skin of the fruit must be yellow. You peel it vertically to get

to the inside. Never mind the rotton spots, they are all the same in

your stomach. You'll never know the difference. This fruit is of an

oblong shape. In fact, this fruit is called a banana! Do you have a

problem with that? Maybe you just aren't honest enough to know that

you must eat *BANANAS* every day! Even insane people eat bananas and

get healthy that way!! " (And on and on).

TTYL,

[Guest guest]

> > > Nazi seems harsh, but then again... not.

> > >

> > > The last time we met w/ the PO (I pronounce it " POOH " !--

haha) we

> > asked about alternatives to AA and 12 step treatment. He

informed us

> > there is none. ( I of course had done some homework so

called him on

> > it). He backpeddled a bit by saying, WEELLLLLL, here in

Washington

> > State the WAC (Washington Adminsitrative Code) does not

allow non-12

> > step treatment or any other groups other than AA, so you

won't be

> > successful with the judge. (I have read a lot of the WAC but

have

> > yet to find where 12step/AA is mandated by law. It could be,

but I

> > just have not found it...) And anyways, even if you did find an

> > alternative like REBT, or SMART (he obviously has done HIS

> > homework... NOT) all they talk about in meetings is football

or other

> > non-alcohol related topics, then they sign your slip and call it

a

> > meeting. You will not find help in those meetings, you will

always

> > come back to AA. AA is the only thing that works.

> > >

> > > Okay, so I love it when gov't employees give themselves

rope to

> > hang themselves with. My hubby and I let him ramble on and

on. All

> > the while I was taking mental notes. He went on further to tell

my

> > huband that the reason he (my hubby) can not visit his son in

prison

> > is cuz my hubby had not worked the steps hard enough and

my husband

> > is a bad influence on his own son. The kid's in prison for 10

years

> > and my HUSBAND with the 4 year old DUI is a bad influence

on him.? OH

> > MY GOD!

> > >

> > > SO, this morning, after a long nite of helping my husband

pen the

> > letter stating his alternative treatment plan (which I'll post

parts

> > of if anyone is interested but won't without being solicited to

do

> > so) we met with Pooh-head. Pooh asked, " so what's new? " .

My

> > husband responded... " nothing " . Then handed the letter to

Poo-head

> > and said " this is my treatment plan " .

> > > Poo says, " you mean the COURTS treatment plan " .

> > > Hubby: " no, my alternative treatment plan. AA doesn't work

for

> > me, like we talked about last time " .

> > > Poo: " Just tell me what the letter says " .

> > > Hubby: " that I won't go to AA and...... it's all in the letter " .

> > >

> > > Poo: Do you have AA slips for me?

> > > Hub: No (it is not court mandated yet).

> > > Poo, acting tickled pink that he's " GOT " my husband:

" oooooo----

> > k, but it IS court mandated "

> > > Hub: No it's not. I was released on my own PR with no

> > conditions.

> > > Poo: No you weren't. (He throws us an old court paper that

has

> > been superceded. ) He continues: The judge ordered you to

AA.

> > > Hub: No he didn't. (hubby points to copy of the newer order

that

> > is in effect) THAT's my release order and it has NO

conditions.

> > > Poo, snidely chuckles: oooooo-k, just trying to clarify things

for

> > you here. You know I'll have to report this to the judge.

> > > lisak gets pissed off here and grabs the old paper and

points and

> > reads the statement that says that the AA is imposed ONLY if

my

> > husband is released into INPATIENT treatment. Which he

was NOT. The

> > NEW release has NO conditions. The LETTER states he will

NOT attend

> > AA. ( I hate it when I lose it like that... I'm supposed to be

better

> > than this nurt)

> > > Poo: I'm just the middle man. By the way, we need to talk

about

> > our last meeting and the letter you wrote me afterwards (we

send him

> > registered letters which restate what was said to ensure

agreement

> > and cover our asses). I somehow mislead you and did not

intend to

> > tell you that AA is the ONLY thing that works.

> > > Hub: Well, I recall that that is what you said

> > > Poo: No that is not what I said. I said AA works.

> > > Hub: No it doesn't.

> > > Poo: AA WORKS.

> > > Hub: No it doesn't.

> > > Poo: We can have our opinions on this, but AA works if you

work it.

> > > Hub: Yes we can have our opinions on this, but... It didn't

work

> > for ME.

> > > Poo: You didn't work it. Anyway, I just wanted to clear that

up.

> > I did not say it's the ONLY thing that works.

> > > lisak: that's what I recall, and anyway, that is why my

husband

> > wrote you the letter to ensure we all understand what is

being stated

> > here.

> > > Poo: Ok Craig, ready to submit a urine sample?

> > > Hub: OK. (this was not court mandated either, but hubby

accepted

> > UA's as his alternative treatment plan, plus he does not have

> > anything to hide, thus he submitted)

> > >

> > > End of chapter. He is trying hard to force my husband to

attend

> > AA, to threaten my husband that by not attending he is going

against

> > the judges orders, which so far there are no orders in effect.

he's

> > such a jerk. He was all nicey-nice last appt. when he still

thought

> > my husband was going to go to the meetings. But as SOON

as my

> > husband stated he would not be going and would rather try

an

> > alternative or face jail, poo-head showed his true colors.

He's an

> > AA-Nazi. He's two-hatting, as Mr. Trimpey would say. He's a

> > representative of the state of Washington and he's pushing

AA on my

> > husband so hard it's not funny. He's admitted to being in AA

and

> > insists that AA is the only way. I'm sure he showed the judge

our

> > registered letter and the judge told him he better not be

saying that

> > AA is the ONLY way. Too late. And, he's holding AA over my

husbands

> > head so that he can not visit his son in prison. We are

writing the

> > city mayor now to tell him we are taking legal action if the PO

> > doesn't knock off the AA or no visit garbage. Should be

> > interesting. I'm sure poo will tell the judge that my husband

is

> > being resistent to treatment, is uncooperative, will not follow

the

> > PO's recommendations and therefore should NOT be

considered to do the

> > alternative treatment and either be FORCED to attend AA and

12 step

> > inpatient/outpatient or go back to jail. I hope that is what

happens

> > cuz that's exactly where we want him. He should not be

doing this.

> > It's plain wrong. He should be caught. He should be

punished.

> > IMHO.

> > >

> > > sorry it was so long.

> > > lisak

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

It is exactly BECAUSE people are more open to 'spirituality' than

to 'religion' that the idea of 'spirituality' should be attacked. If

you insist AA is a religion, but then potential recruits go there and

find practicing Jews, Catholics, New Agers, and so on, what you have

done is hurt your own cause. People see that AA is not a SPECIFIC

creed, but a general movement advocating spiritual doctrines in

general.

Hence, it is important to point out that SPIRITUALITY itself is

the problem. This evil, but general, concept needs to be exposed.

Just because exposing it is hard to do this, doesn't mean it doesn't

need doing.

The legal question is a different issue. There are two

interpretations here. The Religious Right insists that the

establishment clause only was meant to give us freedom OF religion,

not freedom FROM religion. The Secular Left claims that precedent

gurantees us freedom FROM religion, ie, in public schools.

This is a political fight. It is not going to be decided by legal

argument. In the end, it will be settled by who wins the power

struggle and the culture war. Put 9 Clarence -types on the

Supreme Court, and the decision may be that pubic hairs are god.

Law, in the end, is about raw power. Only when power is balanced

do fine arguments matter. When power shifts, all the legalese goes

right out the window. The Spiritual Revolution in this country is

about who will have power over whom, in a rapidly escalating

revolutionary climate. People need to be realists here.

Your 'legal' rights are only as good as the guys with the guns say

they are. If the wrong guys have the guns, you have NO rights. Laws

can't protect you from tyrants or fascists.

> >

> > good god! Everytime I read one of these stories, it seems

worse

> > than the last one. Nazi is not far off, really.

>

> Hi,

>

> One of the reasons that I truly prefer " religious " to " spiritual "

is

> that unlike you, most people are much more " open " to spiritual

beliefs

> than religious ones. And, even withall, there *are* laws on the

books

> regarding the separation of church and state. (But not necessarily

> spirituality and state???!) ((Help!))

>

> I am not trying to obscure the facts. I really think AA is a

> religion.

>

> Regarding your fruit analogy...what I see is people saying " We

don't

> care what kind of fruit you eat. But you must eat fruit. Further,

> the skin of the fruit must be yellow. You peel it vertically to

get

> to the inside. Never mind the rotton spots, they are all the same

in

> your stomach. You'll never know the difference. This fruit is of

an

> oblong shape. In fact, this fruit is called a banana! Do you have

a

> problem with that? Maybe you just aren't honest enough to know

that

> you must eat *BANANAS* every day! Even insane people eat bananas

and

> get healthy that way!! " (And on and on).

>

> TTYL,

>

[Guest guest]

My stepson's incarceration was not drug or alcohol related. In fact, Poo

has changed his story a couple times about why my hubby can't get permission

to see his son. First he said " when I think you are ready I'll let you see

your son " . Next he said, " A person on probation will not be allowed, even

if I signed the paper granting permission, the prison will turn you down " ,

and then this last time it was " when I think you are working the steps, I'll

sign the paper " . (BTW, we know for a fact that people on probation can and

have been granted visitations). So it's all about poo's desire to see hubby

on his knees in a meeting.

Regards, lisak

Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

> Hi

>

> Dont worry about losin' it. Y'know, I've even been known to do that

> myself occasionally.

>

> Tell me, if you dont mind me asking, is your stepson's conviction in

> any way drug or alcohol related? If not, what the hell does what your

> hubby does matter as h=far as his son is concerned? Alsom surely Mr

> Pooh' sole areas of responsibility is with hubby himself, not nursing

> hubby's son. Whether his father is a suitable visitor is surely a

> matter for the prison Governor or someone associated with the son, not

> Mr Pooh. I gues youre gonna tell me that the Governor checks your

> hubby out by asking Mr Pooh and hence that's the handle Winnie has.

>

> Best of luck to all of you. God/Whatever/Nothing Bless.

>

> P.

>

>

> > Nazi seems harsh, but then again... not.

> >

> > The last time we met w/ the PO (I pronounce it " POOH " !-- haha) we

> asked about alternatives to AA and 12 step treatment. He informed us

> there is none. ( I of course had done some homework so called him on

> it). He backpeddled a bit by saying, WEELLLLLL, here in Washington

> State the WAC (Washington Adminsitrative Code) does not allow non-12

> step treatment or any other groups other than AA, so you won't be

> successful with the judge. (I have read a lot of the WAC but have yet

> to find where 12step/AA is mandated by law. It could be, but I just

> have not found it...) And anyways, even if you did find an alternative

> like REBT, or SMART (he obviously has done HIS homework... NOT) all

> they talk about in meetings is football or other non-alcohol related

> topics, then they sign your slip and call it a meeting. You will not

> find help in those meetings, you will always come back to AA. AA is

> the only thing that works.

> >

> > Okay, so I love it when gov't employees give themselves rope to hang

> themselves with. My hubby and I let him ramble on and on. All the

> while I was taking mental notes. He went on further to tell my huband

> that the reason he (my hubby) can not visit his son in prison is cuz

> my hubby had not worked the steps hard enough and my husband is a bad

> influence on his own son. The kid's in prison for 10 years and my

> HUSBAND with the 4 year old DUI is a bad influence on him.? OH MY GOD!

> >

> > SO, this morning, after a long nite of helping my husband pen the

> letter stating his alternative treatment plan (which I'll post parts

> of if anyone is interested but won't without being solicited to do so)

> we met with Pooh-head. Pooh asked, " so what's new? " . My husband

> responded... " nothing " . Then handed the letter to Poo-head and said

> " this is my treatment plan " .

> > Poo says, " you mean the COURTS treatment plan " .

> > Hubby: " no, my alternative treatment plan. AA doesn't work for me,

> like we talked about last time " .

> > Poo: " Just tell me what the letter says " .

> > Hubby: " that I won't go to AA and...... it's all in the letter " .

> >

> > Poo: Do you have AA slips for me?

> > Hub: No (it is not court mandated yet).

> > Poo, acting tickled pink that he's " GOT " my husband: " oooooo---- k,

> but it IS court mandated "

> > Hub: No it's not. I was released on my own PR with no conditions.

> > Poo: No you weren't. (He throws us an old court paper that has

> been superceded. ) He continues: The judge ordered you to AA.

> > Hub: No he didn't. (hubby points to copy of the newer order that

> is in effect) THAT's my release order and it has NO conditions.

> > Poo, snidely chuckles: oooooo-k, just trying to clarify things for

> you here. You know I'll have to report this to the judge.

> > lisak gets pissed off here and grabs the old paper and points and

> reads the statement that says that the AA is imposed ONLY if my

> husband is released into INPATIENT treatment. Which he was NOT. The

> NEW release has NO conditions. The LETTER states he will NOT attend

> AA. ( I hate it when I lose it like that... I'm supposed to be better

> than this nurt)

> > Poo: I'm just the middle man. By the way, we need to talk about our

> last meeting and the letter you wrote me afterwards (we send him

> registered letters which restate what was said to ensure agreement and

> cover our asses). I somehow mislead you and did not intend to tell

> you that AA is the ONLY thing that works.

> > Hub: Well, I recall that that is what you said

> > Poo: No that is not what I said. I said AA works.

> > Hub: No it doesn't.

> > Poo: AA WORKS.

> > Hub: No it doesn't.

> > Poo: We can have our opinions on this, but AA works if you work it.

> > Hub: Yes we can have our opinions on this, but... It didn't work

> for ME.

> > Poo: You didn't work it. Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up.

> I did not say it's the ONLY thing that works.

> > lisak: that's what I recall, and anyway, that is why my husband

> wrote you the letter to ensure we all understand what is being stated

> here.

> > Poo: Ok Craig, ready to submit a urine sample?

> > Hub: OK. (this was not court mandated either, but hubby accepted

> UA's as his alternative treatment plan, plus he does not have anything

> to hide, thus he submitted)

> >

> > End of chapter. He is trying hard to force my husband to attend AA,

> to threaten my husband that by not attending he is going against the

> judges orders, which so far there are no orders in effect. he's such

> a jerk. He was all nicey-nice last appt. when he still thought my

> husband was going to go to the meetings. But as SOON as my husband

> stated he would not be going and would rather try an alternative or

> face jail, poo-head showed his true colors. He's an AA-Nazi. He's

> two-hatting, as Mr. Trimpey would say. He's a representative of the

> state of Washington and he's pushing AA on my husband so hard it's not

> funny. He's admitted to being in AA and insists that AA is the only

> way. I'm sure he showed the judge our registered letter and the judge

> told him he better not be saying that AA is the ONLY way. Too late.

> And, he's holding AA over my husbands head so that he can not visit

> his son in prison. We are writing the city mayor now to tell him we

> are taking legal action if the PO doesn't knock off the AA or no visit

> garbage. Should be interesting. I'm sure poo will tell the judge

> that my husband is being resistent to treatment, is uncooperative,

> will not follow the PO's recommendations and therefore should NOT be

> considered to do the alternative treatment and either be FORCED to

> attend AA and 12 step inpatient/outpatient or go back to jail. I hope

> that is what happens cuz that's exactly where we want him. He should

> not be doing this. It's plain wrong. He should be caught. He should

> be punished. IMHO.

> >

> > sorry it was so long.

> > lisak

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

LOL LOL LOL.

Needed to laugh , and well done!

lisak

Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

>

> >

> > good god! Everytime I read one of these stories, it seems worse

> > than the last one. Nazi is not far off, really.

>

> Hi,

>

> One of the reasons that I truly prefer " religious " to " spiritual " is

> that unlike you, most people are much more " open " to spiritual beliefs

> than religious ones. And, even withall, there *are* laws on the books

> regarding the separation of church and state. (But not necessarily

> spirituality and state???!) ((Help!))

>

> I am not trying to obscure the facts. I really think AA is a

> religion.

>

> Regarding your fruit analogy...what I see is people saying " We don't

> care what kind of fruit you eat. But you must eat fruit. Further,

> the skin of the fruit must be yellow. You peel it vertically to get

> to the inside. Never mind the rotton spots, they are all the same in

> your stomach. You'll never know the difference. This fruit is of an

> oblong shape. In fact, this fruit is called a banana! Do you have a

> problem with that? Maybe you just aren't honest enough to know that

> you must eat *BANANAS* every day! Even insane people eat bananas and

> get healthy that way!! " (And on and on).

>

> TTYL,

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Good questions, and comments. (taxes the brain doesn't it?)

Part of my husband's earlier sentencing was, and I quote:

" That the defendant report to the Probation Department and be subject to all

rules, regulations, and requirements imposed by that department. Further,

the defendant shall pay probation fees at the rate of fifty dollars per

month until the completion of treatment " .

Thus, if poo says no visits, then my husband must comply. My husband did

bring this up to the judge last year, but it was while my husband was on

home detention, and also, poo had just lied in court stating my husband had

missed 3 appts. with him. The judge got pissed at my husband, told him to

" quit whining " and denied my husband's request. It's no wonder my husband

gave up trying to comply and said fuck it and stopped everything;

treatment, abstinence and his PO appt's after that. THUS his recent

incarceration. But yes, we will fight, once again, the visitation thing.

Only this time we are writing the mayor a letter and letting him know if he

doesn't do something, we'll take legal action. As for your stomach and

authority, I quite agree. It sucks cuz they can lie and cheat and steal and

get away with it all. I was raised by cops, (both grandparents were cops, my

mom and stepdad retired from the police dept) and I was Pollyanna about " the

system " until I met and married my hubby. I am now totally flip flopped and

think that in general, they are as crooked as those they rule so superior

over. (In GENERAL, OKAY? I know there are some cops out there who care...

but few and far between if ya ask me...) But, as my husband says Mike, as

long as we are " clean " (no warrents, not doing drugs or alcohol, law abiding

and etc, ) then we have every right to fight for our rights and we can watch

them squirm with delight.

lisak

Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

>

>

> >

> > good god! Everytime I read one of these stories, it seems worse

> > than the last one. Nazi is not far off, really.

> >

> >

> > -- In 12-step-free@y..., " Kasper " <kasperkarma@h...> wrote:

> > > Nazi seems harsh, but then again... not.

> > >

> > > The last time we met w/ the PO (I pronounce it " POOH " !-- haha) we

> > asked about alternatives to AA and 12 step treatment. He informed us

> > there is none. ( I of course had done some homework so called him on

> > it). He backpeddled a bit by saying, WEELLLLLL, here in Washington

> > State the WAC (Washington Adminsitrative Code) does not allow non-12

> > step treatment or any other groups other than AA, so you won't be

> > successful with the judge. (I have read a lot of the WAC but have

> > yet to find where 12step/AA is mandated by law. It could be, but I

> > just have not found it...) And anyways, even if you did find an

> > alternative like REBT, or SMART (he obviously has done HIS

> > homework... NOT) all they talk about in meetings is football or other

> > non-alcohol related topics, then they sign your slip and call it a

> > meeting. You will not find help in those meetings, you will always

> > come back to AA. AA is the only thing that works.

> > >

> > > Okay, so I love it when gov't employees give themselves rope to

> > hang themselves with. My hubby and I let him ramble on and on. All

> > the while I was taking mental notes. He went on further to tell my

> > huband that the reason he (my hubby) can not visit his son in prison

> > is cuz my hubby had not worked the steps hard enough and my husband

> > is a bad influence on his own son. The kid's in prison for 10 years

> > and my HUSBAND with the 4 year old DUI is a bad influence on him.? OH

> > MY GOD!

> > >

> > > SO, this morning, after a long nite of helping my husband pen the

> > letter stating his alternative treatment plan (which I'll post parts

> > of if anyone is interested but won't without being solicited to do

> > so) we met with Pooh-head. Pooh asked, " so what's new? " . My

> > husband responded... " nothing " . Then handed the letter to Poo-head

> > and said " this is my treatment plan " .

> > > Poo says, " you mean the COURTS treatment plan " .

> > > Hubby: " no, my alternative treatment plan. AA doesn't work for

> > me, like we talked about last time " .

> > > Poo: " Just tell me what the letter says " .

> > > Hubby: " that I won't go to AA and...... it's all in the letter " .

> > >

> > > Poo: Do you have AA slips for me?

> > > Hub: No (it is not court mandated yet).

> > > Poo, acting tickled pink that he's " GOT " my husband: " oooooo----

> > k, but it IS court mandated "

> > > Hub: No it's not. I was released on my own PR with no

> > conditions.

> > > Poo: No you weren't. (He throws us an old court paper that has

> > been superceded. ) He continues: The judge ordered you to AA.

> > > Hub: No he didn't. (hubby points to copy of the newer order that

> > is in effect) THAT's my release order and it has NO conditions.

> > > Poo, snidely chuckles: oooooo-k, just trying to clarify things for

> > you here. You know I'll have to report this to the judge.

> > > lisak gets pissed off here and grabs the old paper and points and

> > reads the statement that says that the AA is imposed ONLY if my

> > husband is released into INPATIENT treatment. Which he was NOT. The

> > NEW release has NO conditions. The LETTER states he will NOT attend

> > AA. ( I hate it when I lose it like that... I'm supposed to be better

> > than this nurt)

> > > Poo: I'm just the middle man. By the way, we need to talk about

> > our last meeting and the letter you wrote me afterwards (we send him

> > registered letters which restate what was said to ensure agreement

> > and cover our asses). I somehow mislead you and did not intend to

> > tell you that AA is the ONLY thing that works.

> > > Hub: Well, I recall that that is what you said

> > > Poo: No that is not what I said. I said AA works.

> > > Hub: No it doesn't.

> > > Poo: AA WORKS.

> > > Hub: No it doesn't.

> > > Poo: We can have our opinions on this, but AA works if you work it.

> > > Hub: Yes we can have our opinions on this, but... It didn't work

> > for ME.

> > > Poo: You didn't work it. Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up.

> > I did not say it's the ONLY thing that works.

> > > lisak: that's what I recall, and anyway, that is why my husband

> > wrote you the letter to ensure we all understand what is being stated

> > here.

> > > Poo: Ok Craig, ready to submit a urine sample?

> > > Hub: OK. (this was not court mandated either, but hubby accepted

> > UA's as his alternative treatment plan, plus he does not have

> > anything to hide, thus he submitted)

> > >

> > > End of chapter. He is trying hard to force my husband to attend

> > AA, to threaten my husband that by not attending he is going against

> > the judges orders, which so far there are no orders in effect. he's

> > such a jerk. He was all nicey-nice last appt. when he still thought

> > my husband was going to go to the meetings. But as SOON as my

> > husband stated he would not be going and would rather try an

> > alternative or face jail, poo-head showed his true colors. He's an

> > AA-Nazi. He's two-hatting, as Mr. Trimpey would say. He's a

> > representative of the state of Washington and he's pushing AA on my

> > husband so hard it's not funny. He's admitted to being in AA and

> > insists that AA is the only way. I'm sure he showed the judge our

> > registered letter and the judge told him he better not be saying that

> > AA is the ONLY way. Too late. And, he's holding AA over my husbands

> > head so that he can not visit his son in prison. We are writing the

> > city mayor now to tell him we are taking legal action if the PO

> > doesn't knock off the AA or no visit garbage. Should be

> > interesting. I'm sure poo will tell the judge that my husband is

> > being resistent to treatment, is uncooperative, will not follow the

> > PO's recommendations and therefore should NOT be considered to do the

> > alternative treatment and either be FORCED to attend AA and 12 step

> > inpatient/outpatient or go back to jail. I hope that is what happens

> > cuz that's exactly where we want him. He should not be doing this.

> > It's plain wrong. He should be caught. He should be punished.

> > IMHO.

> > >

> > > sorry it was so long.

> > > lisak

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

How is it that the probation officer has authority over whether your husband

can visit his son in a correctional facility? Is it part of the probation,

or parole, or whatever it is that your husband is serving that he must get

permission to visit his son in prison? I find that to be peculiar, and

probably something you could fight against.

I personally have no stomach for a fight with authorities-they have the

deck stacked in their favor- it's like trying to win in a casino- Mike.

Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

>

> good god! Everytime I read one of these stories, it seems worse

> than the last one. Nazi is not far off, really.

>

>

> -- In 12-step-free@y..., " Kasper " <kasperkarma@h...> wrote:

> > Nazi seems harsh, but then again... not.

> >

> > The last time we met w/ the PO (I pronounce it " POOH " !-- haha) we

> asked about alternatives to AA and 12 step treatment. He informed us

> there is none. ( I of course had done some homework so called him on

> it). He backpeddled a bit by saying, WEELLLLLL, here in Washington

> State the WAC (Washington Adminsitrative Code) does not allow non-12

> step treatment or any other groups other than AA, so you won't be

> successful with the judge. (I have read a lot of the WAC but have

> yet to find where 12step/AA is mandated by law. It could be, but I

> just have not found it...) And anyways, even if you did find an

> alternative like REBT, or SMART (he obviously has done HIS

> homework... NOT) all they talk about in meetings is football or other

> non-alcohol related topics, then they sign your slip and call it a

> meeting. You will not find help in those meetings, you will always

> come back to AA. AA is the only thing that works.

> >

> > Okay, so I love it when gov't employees give themselves rope to

> hang themselves with. My hubby and I let him ramble on and on. All

> the while I was taking mental notes. He went on further to tell my

> huband that the reason he (my hubby) can not visit his son in prison

> is cuz my hubby had not worked the steps hard enough and my husband

> is a bad influence on his own son. The kid's in prison for 10 years

> and my HUSBAND with the 4 year old DUI is a bad influence on him.? OH

> MY GOD!

> >

> > SO, this morning, after a long nite of helping my husband pen the

> letter stating his alternative treatment plan (which I'll post parts

> of if anyone is interested but won't without being solicited to do

> so) we met with Pooh-head. Pooh asked, " so what's new? " . My

> husband responded... " nothing " . Then handed the letter to Poo-head

> and said " this is my treatment plan " .

> > Poo says, " you mean the COURTS treatment plan " .

> > Hubby: " no, my alternative treatment plan. AA doesn't work for

> me, like we talked about last time " .

> > Poo: " Just tell me what the letter says " .

> > Hubby: " that I won't go to AA and...... it's all in the letter " .

> >

> > Poo: Do you have AA slips for me?

> > Hub: No (it is not court mandated yet).

> > Poo, acting tickled pink that he's " GOT " my husband: " oooooo----

> k, but it IS court mandated "

> > Hub: No it's not. I was released on my own PR with no

> conditions.

> > Poo: No you weren't. (He throws us an old court paper that has

> been superceded. ) He continues: The judge ordered you to AA.

> > Hub: No he didn't. (hubby points to copy of the newer order that

> is in effect) THAT's my release order and it has NO conditions.

> > Poo, snidely chuckles: oooooo-k, just trying to clarify things for

> you here. You know I'll have to report this to the judge.

> > lisak gets pissed off here and grabs the old paper and points and

> reads the statement that says that the AA is imposed ONLY if my

> husband is released into INPATIENT treatment. Which he was NOT. The

> NEW release has NO conditions. The LETTER states he will NOT attend

> AA. ( I hate it when I lose it like that... I'm supposed to be better

> than this nurt)

> > Poo: I'm just the middle man. By the way, we need to talk about

> our last meeting and the letter you wrote me afterwards (we send him

> registered letters which restate what was said to ensure agreement

> and cover our asses). I somehow mislead you and did not intend to

> tell you that AA is the ONLY thing that works.

> > Hub: Well, I recall that that is what you said

> > Poo: No that is not what I said. I said AA works.

> > Hub: No it doesn't.

> > Poo: AA WORKS.

> > Hub: No it doesn't.

> > Poo: We can have our opinions on this, but AA works if you work it.

> > Hub: Yes we can have our opinions on this, but... It didn't work

> for ME.

> > Poo: You didn't work it. Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up.

> I did not say it's the ONLY thing that works.

> > lisak: that's what I recall, and anyway, that is why my husband

> wrote you the letter to ensure we all understand what is being stated

> here.

> > Poo: Ok Craig, ready to submit a urine sample?

> > Hub: OK. (this was not court mandated either, but hubby accepted

> UA's as his alternative treatment plan, plus he does not have

> anything to hide, thus he submitted)

> >

> > End of chapter. He is trying hard to force my husband to attend

> AA, to threaten my husband that by not attending he is going against

> the judges orders, which so far there are no orders in effect. he's

> such a jerk. He was all nicey-nice last appt. when he still thought

> my husband was going to go to the meetings. But as SOON as my

> husband stated he would not be going and would rather try an

> alternative or face jail, poo-head showed his true colors. He's an

> AA-Nazi. He's two-hatting, as Mr. Trimpey would say. He's a

> representative of the state of Washington and he's pushing AA on my

> husband so hard it's not funny. He's admitted to being in AA and

> insists that AA is the only way. I'm sure he showed the judge our

> registered letter and the judge told him he better not be saying that

> AA is the ONLY way. Too late. And, he's holding AA over my husbands

> head so that he can not visit his son in prison. We are writing the

> city mayor now to tell him we are taking legal action if the PO

> doesn't knock off the AA or no visit garbage. Should be

> interesting. I'm sure poo will tell the judge that my husband is

> being resistent to treatment, is uncooperative, will not follow the

> PO's recommendations and therefore should NOT be considered to do the

> alternative treatment and either be FORCED to attend AA and 12 step

> inpatient/outpatient or go back to jail. I hope that is what happens

> cuz that's exactly where we want him. He should not be doing this.

> It's plain wrong. He should be caught. He should be punished.

> IMHO.

> >

> > sorry it was so long.

> > lisak

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

SO, (and I agree with you 100%, as I've entertained these very thoughts

myself of late), AA may not be deemed religious during this administration,

yet, if the arguement were held during a different, more left-wing S.court,

it very well would be deemed religious. So, with the religion argument,

timing is everything.

Depressing really. But your idea that we address the " spiritual " aspect is

right on the money, and I agree that if this is to ever go to the supreme

court of our land, we had better have our duckies in a row. But then,

perception is reality, is it not? Is this an accepted statement? If my

hubby percieves AA to be religious, or spiritually against his Jewish

beliefs, then wouldn't he (or anyone being forced and fighting it) have some

grounds to refuse and be allowed to refuse? Weak I suppose.

I think we could play into their game, which is, " if it's a disease, then

let those so inflicted chose the treatment " , and if laws are broken (ie.,

DUI), then let the law address the punishment for the deed, not for the

underlying CAUSE of the deed. It's like Jack T. says... moral

responsibility and moral accountability. My conversations with Ken Stark

(Washington State Director of the Division of Alcohol and Substance Abuse)

were never allowed (by him) to go outside " science " . I forwarded some

Trimpey stuff to him, and Mr. Stark immediatley discredited Mr. T by stating

it was unscientifically founded. (thus I found the science threads on this

post interesting to read in relation to Mr. Starks comments).

Where is the science behind AA? Certainly there is no unrefuted scientific

facts that abuse of alcohol is a disease. Perhaps I should respond to Mr.

Stark thusly?

lisak

Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

>

> It is exactly BECAUSE people are more open to 'spirituality' than

> to 'religion' that the idea of 'spirituality' should be attacked. If

> you insist AA is a religion, but then potential recruits go there and

> find practicing Jews, Catholics, New Agers, and so on, what you have

> done is hurt your own cause. People see that AA is not a SPECIFIC

> creed, but a general movement advocating spiritual doctrines in

> general.

>

> Hence, it is important to point out that SPIRITUALITY itself is

> the problem. This evil, but general, concept needs to be exposed.

> Just because exposing it is hard to do this, doesn't mean it doesn't

> need doing.

>

> The legal question is a different issue. There are two

> interpretations here. The Religious Right insists that the

> establishment clause only was meant to give us freedom OF religion,

> not freedom FROM religion. The Secular Left claims that precedent

> gurantees us freedom FROM religion, ie, in public schools.

>

> This is a political fight. It is not going to be decided by legal

> argument. In the end, it will be settled by who wins the power

> struggle and the culture war. Put 9 Clarence -types on the

> Supreme Court, and the decision may be that pubic hairs are god.

>

> Law, in the end, is about raw power. Only when power is balanced

> do fine arguments matter. When power shifts, all the legalese goes

> right out the window. The Spiritual Revolution in this country is

> about who will have power over whom, in a rapidly escalating

> revolutionary climate. People need to be realists here.

> Your 'legal' rights are only as good as the guys with the guns say

> they are. If the wrong guys have the guns, you have NO rights. Laws

> can't protect you from tyrants or fascists.

>

>

>

> > >

> > > good god! Everytime I read one of these stories, it seems

> worse

> > > than the last one. Nazi is not far off, really.

> >

> > Hi,

> >

> > One of the reasons that I truly prefer " religious " to " spiritual "

> is

> > that unlike you, most people are much more " open " to spiritual

> beliefs

> > than religious ones. And, even withall, there *are* laws on the

> books

> > regarding the separation of church and state. (But not necessarily

> > spirituality and state???!) ((Help!))

> >

> > I am not trying to obscure the facts. I really think AA is a

> > religion.

> >

> > Regarding your fruit analogy...what I see is people saying " We

> don't

> > care what kind of fruit you eat. But you must eat fruit. Further,

> > the skin of the fruit must be yellow. You peel it vertically to

> get

> > to the inside. Never mind the rotton spots, they are all the same

> in

> > your stomach. You'll never know the difference. This fruit is of

> an

> > oblong shape. In fact, this fruit is called a banana! Do you have

> a

> > problem with that? Maybe you just aren't honest enough to know

> that

> > you must eat *BANANAS* every day! Even insane people eat bananas

> and

> > get healthy that way!! " (And on and on).

> >

> > TTYL,

> >

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am now totally flip flopped and

think that in general, they are as crooked as those they rule so superior

over. (In GENERAL, OKAY? I know there are some cops out there who care...

but few and far between if ya ask me...

Imagine having to counsel a client in a criminal matter that it will be his word against a coupla cops, and the odds of the jury believing him over the lying sacks of shit in blue are pretty much zero. (And for a misdemeanor matter, it just isn't worth the money it would take to chip away at their bullshit, in many instances.) Mind you, I'm not one of those lefty "I think all cops suck" people; my contempt for cops is born of practicing law, and coming to learn that in major metropolitan areas the poh-leeece themselves refer to what they do in court as "testilying."

Had a brief career as a municpal prosecutor, too. I was *unable to prosecute a few cases because one cop's reports were absolutely unintelligible, and he wasn't much help in reconstructing what happened. The level of stupidity and illiteracy among cops is frequently higher than their honesty.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

I don't like the idea that a probation officer would use his power to make

exceptions to the visiting rule as a leverage against probationer's to

make them comply with something he wants them to do which is unrelated to

the visiting rule. I am not surprised that some of them misuse their

power in this way, however. Mike.

Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

>

> > > > Nazi seems harsh, but then again... not.

> > > >

> > > > The last time we met w/ the PO (I pronounce it " POOH " !--

> haha) we

> > > asked about alternatives to AA and 12 step treatment. He

> informed us

> > > there is none. ( I of course had done some homework so

> called him on

> > > it). He backpeddled a bit by saying, WEELLLLLL, here in

> Washington

> > > State the WAC (Washington Adminsitrative Code) does not

> allow non-12

> > > step treatment or any other groups other than AA, so you

> won't be

> > > successful with the judge. (I have read a lot of the WAC but

> have

> > > yet to find where 12step/AA is mandated by law. It could be,

> but I

> > > just have not found it...) And anyways, even if you did find an

> > > alternative like REBT, or SMART (he obviously has done HIS

> > > homework... NOT) all they talk about in meetings is football

> or other

> > > non-alcohol related topics, then they sign your slip and call it

> a

> > > meeting. You will not find help in those meetings, you will

> always

> > > come back to AA. AA is the only thing that works.

> > > >

> > > > Okay, so I love it when gov't employees give themselves

> rope to

> > > hang themselves with. My hubby and I let him ramble on and

> on. All

> > > the while I was taking mental notes. He went on further to tell

> my

> > > huband that the reason he (my hubby) can not visit his son in

> prison

> > > is cuz my hubby had not worked the steps hard enough and

> my husband

> > > is a bad influence on his own son. The kid's in prison for 10

> years

> > > and my HUSBAND with the 4 year old DUI is a bad influence

> on him.? OH

> > > MY GOD!

> > > >

> > > > SO, this morning, after a long nite of helping my husband

> pen the

> > > letter stating his alternative treatment plan (which I'll post

> parts

> > > of if anyone is interested but won't without being solicited to

> do

> > > so) we met with Pooh-head. Pooh asked, " so what's new? " .

> My

> > > husband responded... " nothing " . Then handed the letter to

> Poo-head

> > > and said " this is my treatment plan " .

> > > > Poo says, " you mean the COURTS treatment plan " .

> > > > Hubby: " no, my alternative treatment plan. AA doesn't work

> for

> > > me, like we talked about last time " .

> > > > Poo: " Just tell me what the letter says " .

> > > > Hubby: " that I won't go to AA and...... it's all in the letter " .

> > > >

> > > > Poo: Do you have AA slips for me?

> > > > Hub: No (it is not court mandated yet).

> > > > Poo, acting tickled pink that he's " GOT " my husband:

> " oooooo----

> > > k, but it IS court mandated "

> > > > Hub: No it's not. I was released on my own PR with no

> > > conditions.

> > > > Poo: No you weren't. (He throws us an old court paper that

> has

> > > been superceded. ) He continues: The judge ordered you to

> AA.

> > > > Hub: No he didn't. (hubby points to copy of the newer order

> that

> > > is in effect) THAT's my release order and it has NO

> conditions.

> > > > Poo, snidely chuckles: oooooo-k, just trying to clarify things

> for

> > > you here. You know I'll have to report this to the judge.

> > > > lisak gets pissed off here and grabs the old paper and

> points and

> > > reads the statement that says that the AA is imposed ONLY if

> my

> > > husband is released into INPATIENT treatment. Which he

> was NOT. The

> > > NEW release has NO conditions. The LETTER states he will

> NOT attend

> > > AA. ( I hate it when I lose it like that... I'm supposed to be

> better

> > > than this nurt)

> > > > Poo: I'm just the middle man. By the way, we need to talk

> about

> > > our last meeting and the letter you wrote me afterwards (we

> send him

> > > registered letters which restate what was said to ensure

> agreement

> > > and cover our asses). I somehow mislead you and did not

> intend to

> > > tell you that AA is the ONLY thing that works.

> > > > Hub: Well, I recall that that is what you said

> > > > Poo: No that is not what I said. I said AA works.

> > > > Hub: No it doesn't.

> > > > Poo: AA WORKS.

> > > > Hub: No it doesn't.

> > > > Poo: We can have our opinions on this, but AA works if you

> work it.

> > > > Hub: Yes we can have our opinions on this, but... It didn't

> work

> > > for ME.

> > > > Poo: You didn't work it. Anyway, I just wanted to clear that

> up.

> > > I did not say it's the ONLY thing that works.

> > > > lisak: that's what I recall, and anyway, that is why my

> husband

> > > wrote you the letter to ensure we all understand what is

> being stated

> > > here.

> > > > Poo: Ok Craig, ready to submit a urine sample?

> > > > Hub: OK. (this was not court mandated either, but hubby

> accepted

> > > UA's as his alternative treatment plan, plus he does not have

> > > anything to hide, thus he submitted)

> > > >

> > > > End of chapter. He is trying hard to force my husband to

> attend

> > > AA, to threaten my husband that by not attending he is going

> against

> > > the judges orders, which so far there are no orders in effect.

> he's

> > > such a jerk. He was all nicey-nice last appt. when he still

> thought

> > > my husband was going to go to the meetings. But as SOON

> as my

> > > husband stated he would not be going and would rather try

> an

> > > alternative or face jail, poo-head showed his true colors.

> He's an

> > > AA-Nazi. He's two-hatting, as Mr. Trimpey would say. He's a

> > > representative of the state of Washington and he's pushing

> AA on my

> > > husband so hard it's not funny. He's admitted to being in AA

> and

> > > insists that AA is the only way. I'm sure he showed the judge

> our

> > > registered letter and the judge told him he better not be

> saying that

> > > AA is the ONLY way. Too late. And, he's holding AA over my

> husbands

> > > head so that he can not visit his son in prison. We are

> writing the

> > > city mayor now to tell him we are taking legal action if the PO

> > > doesn't knock off the AA or no visit garbage. Should be

> > > interesting. I'm sure poo will tell the judge that my husband

> is

> > > being resistent to treatment, is uncooperative, will not follow

> the

> > > PO's recommendations and therefore should NOT be

> considered to do the

> > > alternative treatment and either be FORCED to attend AA and

> 12 step

> > > inpatient/outpatient or go back to jail. I hope that is what

> happens

> > > cuz that's exactly where we want him. He should not be

> doing this.

> > > It's plain wrong. He should be caught. He should be

> punished.

> > > IMHO.

> > > >

> > > > sorry it was so long.

> > > > lisak

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

yet, if the arguement were held during a different, more left-wing S.court,

it very well would be deemed religious. So

It should be deemed religious regardless of any justice's political ideology, because it manifestly is. However, to cover all possible bases in terms of judicial bias, the perfect plaintiff should be religious, perhaps an observant Jew such as Rita, whose religion of choice is irreconcilable with AA theology. In such a situation, it is all but impossible to deny that there are TWO religious views at issue in the plaintiff's life, and that the State is coercing her to attend religious "services" that run contrary to her freely chosen religious views. Much better plaintiff that one of those libertine and vile atheists.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Mike said:

> I worked in a state prison, and in New Jersey they will even let

> incarcerated prisoners travel to another prison to see their incarcerated

> children under some circumstances. The individual warden has to approve

an

> ex-con or probationer to be admitted to the prison, but they do it

> routinely. Mike.

Yes, I believe it's the same way here. Coincidentally, my husbands

ex-mother-in-law is on probation for DUI, and she has visited my stepson

while on probation. The PO is just being coersive and manipulative as

Devin so succinctly pointed out. So, now my husband not only is dealing

with trying to convince the judge to consider and approve an alternative

treatment plan, but now we must address a PO who has a 12th step agenda. I

really should have told the PO to stop working his 12th step so damn hard!

As a PO, he should, as I believe you or someone else stated on this post, be

worrying about my husband's adherence to the law and to any imposed

conditions (of which there currently are none) set by the judge, not

yammering on and on about how AA works if you work it. The PO has the

judges ear, and I just know in my heart of hearts (not to be taken

literally! that the PO will inform the judge that my husband is " not

trying " and is being argumentative. This is precisely why we write

everything down in the log and why my husband writes then sends letters

registered mail to reiterate all conversations.

lisak

> Re: Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

>

>

> > My stepson's incarceration was not drug or alcohol related. In fact,

Poo

> > has changed his story a couple times about why my hubby can't get

> permission

> > to see his son. First he said " when I think you are ready I'll let you

> see

> > your son " . Next he said, " A person on probation will not be allowed,

even

> > if I signed the paper granting permission, the prison will turn you

down " ,

> > and then this last time it was " when I think you are working the steps,

> I'll

> > sign the paper " . (BTW, we know for a fact that people on probation can

> and

> > have been granted visitations). So it's all about poo's desire to see

> hubby

> > on his knees in a meeting.

>

>

[Guest guest]

see below Mona's response:

Re: Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

I am now totally flip flopped and think that in general, they are as crooked as those they rule so superior over. (In GENERAL, OKAY? I know there are some cops out there who care... but few and far between if ya ask me...

Imagine having to counsel a client in a criminal matter that it will be his word against a coupla cops, and the odds of the jury believing him over the lying sacks of shit in blue are pretty much zero. (And for a misdemeanor matter, it just isn't worth the money it would take to chip away at their bullshit, in many instances.) Mind you, I'm not one of those lefty "I think all cops suck" people; my contempt for cops is born of practicing law, and coming to learn that in major metropolitan areas the poh-leeece themselves refer to what they do in court as "testilying." Had a brief career as a municpal prosecutor, too. I was *unable to prosecute a few cases because one cop's reports were absolutely unintelligible, and he wasn't much help in reconstructing what happened. The level of stupidity and illiteracy among cops is frequently higher than their honesty. --Mona-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mona/All

I had a feeling I'd be opening up a small can of worms (snakes?) with my generalization about Police Officers. But in having spent my entire life growing up with cops, having had cops come over to our house for parties, attending other social get togethers with other cop families, and in general listening to all the "cop-talk" that went on in my and other cop households, I can say that what Mona experienced must be true. I agree with too that the power thing inherent in the job plays on officers minds and character not just on the job, but in all other aspects of their lives. FWIW,aren't there stats that show cops to have a higher than the norm divorce rate, and higher than the norm rate of alcohol abuse? (not to mention Domestic Violence tendencies..) As my family put it, "dealing with criminals all day long will get to ya". Is it any coincidence that my family of cops (all divorced and heavy drinkers by the way) are all Rush Limbaugh fans, HATED Clinton, and have NO compassion at all for people in general? They are bigoted to the extreme. I remember having many heated debates with them about non-whites and non-catholic/christians. The absolute consenus was that if you were not white or catholic/christian you were a criminal and sub-human. My family supported their ideas and beliefs by saying that the prisons are full of non-white and non-catholic/christians. A bunch of crap and I never "won" in any of those debates. I was laughed at and told I was naive to the world. The fact that I married a Jew and his oldest son is doing time in the state pen doesn't exactly hold me in their highest esteem, but they tolerate me and I'm sure they think this is all a passing fancy. And to account for the non-white non-catholic/christian cops in the ranks they would just hold that up as being proof that they (my family) were not bigoted because they associated (more like tolerated) with these folks. In fact, a favorite saying around the house used to describe what they called a "bad cop", was "s/he is a nigger with a badge". This statement is so gross and abhorrent, yet this was typical and spouted often to describe the "occasional bad cop".

Testalying. Cute. Doesn't surprise me a bit. One other tidbit: I've noticed that the smaller the organization (say small town cops vs. big City or State Cops) the worse the cops seem to be. My brother has a theory that these small towners are cops who could not make it on the "big force" and thus are relegated to the less glamorous jobs and smaller precincts. My experience holds this up. Our problems are not with the larger City of Seattle Police Officers (although they and say, LA or NY cops don't get good press) but with our local municipal cops.

All food for thought.

lisak

[Guest guest]

It is very naive to put responsibility for the criminal justice system on police. The cops merely enforce policies made by others

Who is putting "responsibly "for the criminal justice system" -- whatever that might encompass -- on police? Perhaps you believe your comment constitutes a relevant response to the fact that, as I pointed out, many cops lie under oath. Odd, if that is your intent, since I was not addressing whatever flaws may or may not exist in the entire system per se. Rather, I was addressing a particular and independent problem, namely, the profoundly immoral practice in which many cops act is if they have their own secret statute that provides: "In order to protect the collar the officer shall testilie as necessary at all depositions, evidentiary hearings and trials."

I really cannot imagine *any criminal justice system in which such behavior would be moral or desirable.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

It is very naive to put responsibility for the criminal justice

system on police. The cops merely enforce policies made by others.

> see below Mona's response:

> Re: Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

>

>

> In a message dated 6/28/01 12:53:27 AM US Eastern Standard Time,

> kasperkarma@h... writes:

>

>

>

> I am now totally flip flopped and

> think that in general, they are as crooked as those they rule

so superior

> over. (In GENERAL, OKAY? I know there are some cops out there

who care...

> but few and far between if ya ask me...

>

>

> Imagine having to counsel a client in a criminal matter that it

will be his

> word against a coupla cops, and the odds of the jury believing

him over the

> lying sacks of shit in blue are pretty much zero. (And for a

misdemeanor

> matter, it just isn't worth the money it would take to chip away

at their

> bullshit, in many instances.) Mind you, I'm not one of those

lefty " I think

> all cops suck " people; my contempt for cops is born of practicing

law, and

> coming to learn that in major metropolitan areas the poh-leeece

themselves

> refer to what they do in court as " testilying. "

>

> Had a brief career as a municpal prosecutor, too. I was *unable

to prosecute

> a few cases because one cop's reports were absolutely

unintelligible, and he

> wasn't much help in reconstructing what happened. The level of

stupidity and

> illiteracy among cops is frequently higher than their honesty.

>

> --Mona--

> ------------------------------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------

> Mona/All

> I had a feeling I'd be opening up a small can of worms (snakes?)

with my generalization about Police Officers. But in having spent my

entire life growing up with cops, having had cops come over to our

house for parties, attending other social get togethers with other

cop families, and in general listening to all the " cop-talk " that

went on in my and other cop households, I can say that what Mona

experienced must be true. I agree with too that the power

thing inherent in the job plays on officers minds and character not

just on the job, but in all other aspects of their lives.

FWIW,aren't there stats that show cops to have a higher than the norm

divorce rate, and higher than the norm rate of alcohol abuse? (not to

mention Domestic Violence tendencies..) As my family put

it, " dealing with criminals all day long will get to ya " . Is it any

coincidence that my family of cops (all divorced and heavy drinkers

by the way) are all Rush Limbaugh fans, HATED Clinton, and have NO

compassion at all for people in general? They are bigoted to the

extreme. I remember having many heated debates with them about non-

whites and non-catholic/christians. The absolute consenus was that

if you were not white or catholic/christian you were a criminal and

sub-human. My family supported their ideas and beliefs by saying

that the prisons are full of non-white and non-catholic/christians.

A bunch of crap and I never " won " in any of those debates. I was

laughed at and told I was naive to the world. The fact that I

married a Jew and his oldest son is doing time in the state pen

doesn't exactly hold me in their highest esteem, but they tolerate me

and I'm sure they think this is all a passing fancy. And to account

for the non-white non-catholic/christian cops in the ranks they would

just hold that up as being proof that they (my family) were not

bigoted because they associated (more like tolerated) with these

folks. In fact, a favorite saying around the house used to describe

what they called a " bad cop " , was " s/he is a nigger with a badge " .

This statement is so gross and abhorrent, yet this was typical and

spouted often to describe the " occasional bad cop " .

>

> Testalying. Cute. Doesn't surprise me a bit. One other

tidbit: I've noticed that the smaller the organization (say small

town cops vs. big City or State Cops) the worse the cops seem to be.

My brother has a theory that these small towners are cops who could

not make it on the " big force " and thus are relegated to the less

glamorous jobs and smaller precincts. My experience holds this up.

Our problems are not with the larger City of Seattle Police Officers

(although they and say, LA or NY cops don't get good press) but with

our local municipal cops.

>

> All food for thought.

> lisak

[Guest guest]

I agree Mike, but it doesn't make it right. It just shows that there is a bias from cops in general when dealing with people. And though they may be dealing with "scum" in their minds (and other peoples minds) it does not give them license to be racist and be in a job upholding the laws of our land with a prejudice solidly intact. If a police officer can not perform the job without bias, perhaps the officer should not be in that job. I would certainly not want to be pulled over by a cop who hated women and then projected that hate onto me. But like I said, after watching my family, I guess I understand why there comes a point where one is mistrusting and disbelieving. Cops are human. So are criminals. It takes a special breed of person to be a cop, and an even more special breed to be a good, non-biased cop. But this is getting off topic, and I'm breaking my own rule here. My main concern these days is with the probation officer and with the judge, and directly in relation to my husband being haranged (sp?) by his PO to go to AA or else.

regards,

lisak

Re: Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

I am now totally flip flopped and think that in general, they are as crooked as those they rule so superior over. (In GENERAL, OKAY? I know there are some cops out there who care... but few and far between if ya ask me...

Imagine having to counsel a client in a criminal matter that it will be his word against a coupla cops, and the odds of the jury believing him over the lying sacks of shit in blue are pretty much zero. (And for a misdemeanor matter, it just isn't worth the money it would take to chip away at their bullshit, in many instances.) Mind you, I'm not one of those lefty "I think all cops suck" people; my contempt for cops is born of practicing law, and coming to learn that in major metropolitan areas the poh-leeece themselves refer to what they do in court as "testilying." Had a brief career as a municpal prosecutor, too. I was *unable to prosecute a few cases because one cop's reports were absolutely unintelligible, and he wasn't much help in reconstructing what happened. The level of stupidity and illiteracy among cops is frequently higher than their honesty. --Mona-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mona/All

I had a feeling I'd be opening up a small can of worms (snakes?) with my generalization about Police Officers. But in having spent my entire life growing up with cops, having had cops come over to our house for parties, attending other social get togethers with other cop families, and in general listening to all the "cop-talk" that went on in my and other cop households, I can say that what Mona experienced must be true. I agree with too that the power thing inherent in the job plays on officers minds and character not just on the job, but in all other aspects of their lives. FWIW,aren't there stats that show cops to have a higher than the norm divorce rate, and higher than the norm rate of alcohol abuse? (not to mention Domestic Violence tendencies..) As my family put it, "dealing with criminals all day long will get to ya". Is it any coincidence that my family of cops (all divorced and heavy drinkers by the way) are all Rush Limbaugh fans, HATED Clinton, and have NO compassion at all for people in general? They are bigoted to the extreme. I remember having many heated debates with them about non-whites and non-catholic/christians. The absolute consenus was that if you were not white or catholic/christian you were a criminal and sub-human. My family supported their ideas and beliefs by saying that the prisons are full of non-white and non-catholic/christians. A bunch of crap and I never "won" in any of those debates. I was laughed at and told I was naive to the world. The fact that I married a Jew and his oldest son is doing time in the state pen doesn't exactly hold me in their highest esteem, but they tolerate me and I'm sure they think this is all a passing fancy. And to account for the non-white non-catholic/christian cops in the ranks they would just hold that up as being proof that they (my family) were not bigoted because they associated (more like tolerated) with these folks. In fact, a favorite saying around the house used to describe what they called a "bad cop", was "s/he is a nigger with a badge". This statement is so gross and abhorrent, yet this was typical and spouted often to describe the "occasional bad cop".

Testalying. Cute. Doesn't surprise me a bit. One other tidbit: I've noticed that the smaller the organization (say small town cops vs. big City or State Cops) the worse the cops seem to be. My brother has a theory that these small towners are cops who could not make it on the "big force" and thus are relegated to the less glamorous jobs and smaller precincts. My experience holds this up. Our problems are not with the larger City of Seattle Police Officers (although they and say, LA or NY cops don't get good press) but with our local municipal cops.

All food for thought.

lisak

[Guest guest]

I agree. That's why I'm moving off this thread that I started. The Police

Officer issue is a totally different set of posts on some other web page. I

don't feel like going there. Point taken.

lisak

Re: Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 6/28/01 12:53:27 AM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > kasperkarma@h... writes:

> >

> >

> >

> > I am now totally flip flopped and

> > think that in general, they are as crooked as those they rule

> so superior

> > over. (In GENERAL, OKAY? I know there are some cops out there

> who care...

> > but few and far between if ya ask me...

> >

> >

> > Imagine having to counsel a client in a criminal matter that it

> will be his

> > word against a coupla cops, and the odds of the jury believing

> him over the

> > lying sacks of shit in blue are pretty much zero. (And for a

> misdemeanor

> > matter, it just isn't worth the money it would take to chip away

> at their

> > bullshit, in many instances.) Mind you, I'm not one of those

> lefty " I think

> > all cops suck " people; my contempt for cops is born of practicing

> law, and

> > coming to learn that in major metropolitan areas the poh-leeece

> themselves

> > refer to what they do in court as " testilying. "

> >

> > Had a brief career as a municpal prosecutor, too. I was *unable

> to prosecute

> > a few cases because one cop's reports were absolutely

> unintelligible, and he

> > wasn't much help in reconstructing what happened. The level of

> stupidity and

> > illiteracy among cops is frequently higher than their honesty.

> >

> > --Mona--

> > ------------------------------------------------------------------

> -------------------------------------

> > Mona/All

> > I had a feeling I'd be opening up a small can of worms (snakes?)

> with my generalization about Police Officers. But in having spent my

> entire life growing up with cops, having had cops come over to our

> house for parties, attending other social get togethers with other

> cop families, and in general listening to all the " cop-talk " that

> went on in my and other cop households, I can say that what Mona

> experienced must be true. I agree with too that the power

> thing inherent in the job plays on officers minds and character not

> just on the job, but in all other aspects of their lives.

> FWIW,aren't there stats that show cops to have a higher than the norm

> divorce rate, and higher than the norm rate of alcohol abuse? (not to

> mention Domestic Violence tendencies..) As my family put

> it, " dealing with criminals all day long will get to ya " . Is it any

> coincidence that my family of cops (all divorced and heavy drinkers

> by the way) are all Rush Limbaugh fans, HATED Clinton, and have NO

> compassion at all for people in general? They are bigoted to the

> extreme. I remember having many heated debates with them about non-

> whites and non-catholic/christians. The absolute consenus was that

> if you were not white or catholic/christian you were a criminal and

> sub-human. My family supported their ideas and beliefs by saying

> that the prisons are full of non-white and non-catholic/christians.

> A bunch of crap and I never " won " in any of those debates. I was

> laughed at and told I was naive to the world. The fact that I

> married a Jew and his oldest son is doing time in the state pen

> doesn't exactly hold me in their highest esteem, but they tolerate me

> and I'm sure they think this is all a passing fancy. And to account

> for the non-white non-catholic/christian cops in the ranks they would

> just hold that up as being proof that they (my family) were not

> bigoted because they associated (more like tolerated) with these

> folks. In fact, a favorite saying around the house used to describe

> what they called a " bad cop " , was " s/he is a nigger with a badge " .

> This statement is so gross and abhorrent, yet this was typical and

> spouted often to describe the " occasional bad cop " .

> >

> > Testalying. Cute. Doesn't surprise me a bit. One other

> tidbit: I've noticed that the smaller the organization (say small

> town cops vs. big City or State Cops) the worse the cops seem to be.

> My brother has a theory that these small towners are cops who could

> not make it on the " big force " and thus are relegated to the less

> glamorous jobs and smaller precincts. My experience holds this up.

> Our problems are not with the larger City of Seattle Police Officers

> (although they and say, LA or NY cops don't get good press) but with

> our local municipal cops.

> >

> > All food for thought.

> > lisak

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> Good questions, and comments. (taxes the brain doesn't it?)

>

> Part of my husband's earlier sentencing was, and I quote:

> " That the defendant report to the Probation Department and be

subject to all

> rules, regulations, and requirements imposed by that department.

Further,

> the defendant shall pay probation fees at the rate of fifty dollars

per

> month until the completion of treatment " .

So does that mean if Poo says hubby has to clear up the dog shit in

Poo's back yard, hubby has to go along w it?

P.

[Guest guest]

I know... it was me that was saying it doesn't make it right. I think, like many other societal issues, this one won't be "settled" by just little ol' us. We have our experiences, we have our opinions, we have free speech and a great way to express it all. okay, NOW I'm done with this thread!

regards,

lisak

Re: Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

I am now totally flip flopped and think that in general, they are as crooked as those they rule so superior over. (In GENERAL, OKAY? I know there are some cops out there who care... but few and far between if ya ask me...

Imagine having to counsel a client in a criminal matter that it will be his word against a coupla cops, and the odds of the jury believing him over the lying sacks of shit in blue are pretty much zero. (And for a misdemeanor matter, it just isn't worth the money it would take to chip away at their bullshit, in many instances.) Mind you, I'm not one of those lefty "I think all cops suck" people; my contempt for cops is born of practicing law, and coming to learn that in major metropolitan areas the poh-leeece themselves refer to what they do in court as "testilying." Had a brief career as a municpal prosecutor, too. I was *unable to prosecute a few cases because one cop's reports were absolutely unintelligible, and he wasn't much help in reconstructing what happened. The level of stupidity and illiteracy among cops is frequently higher than their honesty. --Mona-- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mona/All

I had a feeling I'd be opening up a small can of worms (snakes?) with my generalization about Police Officers. But in having spent my entire life growing up with cops, having had cops come over to our house for parties, attending other social get togethers with other cop families, and in general listening to all the "cop-talk" that went on in my and other cop households, I can say that what Mona experienced must be true. I agree with too that the power thing inherent in the job plays on officers minds and character not just on the job, but in all other aspects of their lives. FWIW,aren't there stats that show cops to have a higher than the norm divorce rate, and higher than the norm rate of alcohol abuse? (not to mention Domestic Violence tendencies..) As my family put it, "dealing with criminals all day long will get to ya". Is it any coincidence that my family of cops (all divorced and heavy drinkers by the way) are all Rush Limbaugh fans, HATED Clinton, and have NO compassion at all for people in general? They are bigoted to the extreme. I remember having many heated debates with them about non-whites and non-catholic/christians. The absolute consenus was that if you were not white or catholic/christian you were a criminal and sub-human. My family supported their ideas and beliefs by saying that the prisons are full of non-white and non-catholic/christians. A bunch of crap and I never "won" in any of those debates. I was laughed at and told I was naive to the world. The fact that I married a Jew and his oldest son is doing time in the state pen doesn't exactly hold me in their highest esteem, but they tolerate me and I'm sure they think this is all a passing fancy. And to account for the non-white non-catholic/christian cops in the ranks they would just hold that up as being proof that they (my family) were not bigoted because they associated (more like tolerated) with these folks. In fact, a favorite saying around the house used to describe what they called a "bad cop", was "s/he is a nigger with a badge". This statement is so gross and abhorrent, yet this was typical and spouted often to describe the "occasional bad cop".

Testalying. Cute. Doesn't surprise me a bit. One other tidbit: I've noticed that the smaller the organization (say small town cops vs. big City or State Cops) the worse the cops seem to be. My brother has a theory that these small towners are cops who could not make it on the "big force" and thus are relegated to the less glamorous jobs and smaller precincts. My experience holds this up. Our problems are not with the larger City of Seattle Police Officers (although they and say, LA or NY cops don't get good press) but with our local municipal cops.

All food for thought.

lisak

[Guest guest]

> > see below Mona's response:

> > Re: Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 6/28/01 12:53:27 AM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > kasperkarma@h... writes:

> >

> >

> >

> > I am now totally flip flopped and

> > think that in general, they are as crooked as those they rule

> so superior

> > over. (In GENERAL, OKAY? I know there are some cops out

there

> who care...

> > but few and far between if ya ask me...

> >

> >

> > Imagine having to counsel a client in a criminal matter that it

> will be his

> > word against a coupla cops, and the odds of the jury believing

> him over the

> > lying sacks of shit in blue are pretty much zero. (And for a

> misdemeanor

> > matter, it just isn't worth the money it would take to chip away

> at their

> > bullshit, in many instances.) Mind you, I'm not one of those

> lefty " I think

> > all cops suck " people; my contempt for cops is born of

practicing

> law, and

> > coming to learn that in major metropolitan areas the poh-leeece

> themselves

> > refer to what they do in court as " testilying. "

> >

> > Had a brief career as a municpal prosecutor, too. I was *unable

> to prosecute

> > a few cases because one cop's reports were absolutely

> unintelligible, and he

> > wasn't much help in reconstructing what happened. The level of

> stupidity and

> > illiteracy among cops is frequently higher than their honesty.

> >

> > --Mona--

> >

------------------------------------------------------------------

> -------------------------------------

> > Mona/All

> > I had a feeling I'd be opening up a small can of worms (snakes?)

> with my generalization about Police Officers. But in having spent

my

> entire life growing up with cops, having had cops come over to our

> house for parties, attending other social get togethers with other

> cop families, and in general listening to all the " cop-talk " that

> went on in my and other cop households, I can say that what Mona

> experienced must be true. I agree with too that the power

> thing inherent in the job plays on officers minds and character not

> just on the job, but in all other aspects of their lives.

> FWIW,aren't there stats that show cops to have a higher than the

norm

> divorce rate, and higher than the norm rate of alcohol abuse? (not

to

> mention Domestic Violence tendencies..) As my family put

> it, " dealing with criminals all day long will get to ya " . Is it

any

> coincidence that my family of cops (all divorced and heavy drinkers

> by the way) are all Rush Limbaugh fans, HATED Clinton, and have NO

> compassion at all for people in general? They are bigoted to the

> extreme. I remember having many heated debates with them about non-

> whites and non-catholic/christians. The absolute consenus was that

> if you were not white or catholic/christian you were a criminal and

> sub-human. My family supported their ideas and beliefs by saying

> that the prisons are full of non-white and non-catholic/christians.

> A bunch of crap and I never " won " in any of those debates. I was

> laughed at and told I was naive to the world. The fact that I

> married a Jew and his oldest son is doing time in the state pen

> doesn't exactly hold me in their highest esteem, but they tolerate

me

> and I'm sure they think this is all a passing fancy. And to account

> for the non-white non-catholic/christian cops in the ranks they

would

> just hold that up as being proof that they (my family) were not

> bigoted because they associated (more like tolerated) with these

> folks. In fact, a favorite saying around the house used to describe

> what they called a " bad cop " , was " s/he is a nigger with a badge " .

> This statement is so gross and abhorrent, yet this was typical and

> spouted often to describe the " occasional bad cop " .

> >

> > Testalying. Cute. Doesn't surprise me a bit. One other

> tidbit: I've noticed that the smaller the organization (say small

> town cops vs. big City or State Cops) the worse the cops seem to be.

> My brother has a theory that these small towners are cops who could

> not make it on the " big force " and thus are relegated to the less

> glamorous jobs and smaller precincts. My experience holds this up.

> Our problems are not with the larger City of Seattle Police Officers

> (although they and say, LA or NY cops don't get good press) but with

> our local municipal cops.

> >

> > All food for thought.

> > lisak

[Guest guest]

Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

>

> It is very naive to put responsibility for the criminal justice

> system on police. The cops merely enforce policies made by others.

I simply cannot believe any adult human being actually thinks cops

" merely enforce " the law.

There are many cops who don't understand the " policies made by

others " (like the US Supreme Court, the framers of the Constitution, the

legislature, the heads of their own departments...), others who understand

but don't give a damn because they think they're the good guys no matter how

bad, dishonest or illegal their actions.

That's where motions to suppress evidence and confessions come in.

Unfortunately, many people spend months in jail and spend large amounts of

money before a case based on illegally obtained evidence gets dismissed.

For all of your rants about class based bias, , you seem

woefully uneducated about the way cops really treat minorities and the poor.

-- Bob Marshall

[Guest guest]

Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

>

> It is very naive to put responsibility for the criminal justice

> system on police. The cops merely enforce policies made by others.

I simply cannot believe any adult human being actually thinks cops

" merely enforce " the law.

There are many cops who don't understand the " policies made by

others " (like the US Supreme Court, the framers of the Constitution, the

legislature, the heads of their own departments...), others who understand

but don't give a damn because they think they're the good guys no matter how

bad, dishonest or illegal their actions.

That's where motions to suppress evidence and confessions come in.

Unfortunately, many people spend months in jail and spend large amounts of

money before a case based on illegally obtained evidence gets dismissed.

For all of your rants about class based bias, , you seem

woefully uneducated about the way cops really treat minorities and the poor.

-- Bob Marshall

[Guest guest]

> Who is ? Were you addressing Ernst as ? Is Ernst

Diener? Thank

> you for your help. Mike.

Yes. I asked him about it and he said he was. Ernst is 's middle

name.

> Re: AA-Nazi- upon request

> > >

> > > It is very naive to put responsibility for the criminal

justice

> > > system on police. The cops merely enforce policies made by

others.

> >

> > I simply cannot believe any adult human being actually

thinks cops

> > " merely enforce " the law.

> > There are many cops who don't understand the " policies

made by

> > others " (like the US Supreme Court, the framers of the

Constitution, the

> > legislature, the heads of their own departments...), others who

understand

> > but don't give a damn because they think they're the good guys no

matter

> how

> > bad, dishonest or illegal their actions.

> > That's where motions to suppress evidence and confessions

come in.

> > Unfortunately, many people spend months in jail and spend large

amounts of

> > money before a case based on illegally obtained evidence gets

dismissed.

> > For all of your rants about class based bias, , you

seem

> > woefully uneducated about the way cops really treat minorities and

the

> poor.

> >

> > -- Bob Marshall

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >