Re: Spiritual vs Religious?

June 25, 2001

Was use then would the word "apple" have?

"Spiritual" as it has come to be used has so many meanings, each particular to the

user, that the word itself is meaningless and serves to obscure rather than

clarify anything.

Spirituality is not necessarily religious. But any program that entails a belief in a supernatural entity, counsels confession to that entity, praying to that entity, and turning one's life and will over to that entity's care, is religious. Only a fool or a liar would deny this.

--Mona--

June 25, 2001

Rob Rayle wrote:

> Since many on the list assert xA is in fact a religion rather

> than merely " spiritual " , perhaps we could define some terms.

>

> What is " spiritual but not religious " ?

Rob,

" Spiritual, not religious " is an update of Oxford Group's " more spiritual than

religious. " This suited Oxford Group just fine as their interest was merely to

get more potential converts into meetings. However, early AAs knew that they

needed more to get around restrictions re government money and goverment power's

use to further their cause.

>

> Are all things " spiritual " inherently " religious " also?

>

Spiritual really is a useless word, at least in casual conversation with it

being

predefined. If one asks 100 people what it means, they will get 100 different

answers. It would be as if " apple " was defined as a fruit, a rock, a planet and

100 different other things. Was use then would the word " apple " have?

" Spiritual " as it has come to be used has so many meanings, each particular to

the

user, that the word itself is meaningless and serves to obscure rather than

clarify anything.

>

> If not, then do any " spiritual but not religious " groups/situations exist?

> Are there examples out there in the world now?

>

There are no " spiritual but not religious " groups which are a program of finding

(Oxford Group's personal) God's will for them.

Ken Ragge

>

> R

>

June 25, 2001

this is my standard reply to the issue of aa " spirtuality "

AA's Higher Power FBI Profile

_____________________

all facts about " Him " were offered by bill in Big Book and 12-steps.

Bill tells us god is of our understanding, but he cant seem to help himself from

filling in the blanks

for us as to how god works for us though. i guess if my understanding of god is

one which

doesn't restore sanity (step 2), has a will for me to obey (steps 3 and 11) is

in " conscious

contact " with me (Steps 5 and 11), removes defects (Steps 6-7) listens to my

prayers (Step

11), i cant do steps. If i dont do steps, wilson threatens i will " die " and

sign my " own death

warrant " .(1)

(1)

" unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve

Steps of

recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant . . . We must obey

certain principles

or we die. "

-, W.] (1957). Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, New York:

Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., page 119

These were found in minutes in a scan of a few chapters. It would take a week to

pull all the

specific ideals expressed to describe how god of " our " understanding is, and

how this god of

" our " understanding will work for us from the over 400 references to " God " in

BB.

restores sanity

listens to our prayers

removes defects

is a living creator and whom we are its children

is male

has conscious contact with us

has relationships with us, has a will intended us to carry.

Does for us what we could not do for ourselves.

he is a " Creative Intelligence "

" Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things "

He doesn't make too hard terms with those who seek Him

the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive

is a All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence

we are " intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever advancing Creation "

is the Spirit of the Universe

Presence of Infinite Power and Love

Steppers like to claim the steps are " spiritual. not religious " but clearly,

from the direction

(supposedly " suggestions " ) not only are the 12-step religious, they are

specially religious, in

that require the adoption of a specific understanding of this prayer answering.

defect removing

god.

June 25, 2001

'Spiritual' seems to me best defined as a set of beliefs and

behaviors which are based on the presumption of a dual ontology.

Those who believe in 'spirituality' are saying that they believe

two distinct realms of 'being' exist. There is the natural, material

world, which is one level of being. But also, all spiritualists say,

there is a second, 'spiritual' realm of being, a realm in which

SUPERnatural entities exist.

All persons who believe in 'spirituality' also assume that humans

can make contact with the 'spiritual' ontological realm. Various

techniques are given different weight in doing this in the various

separate traditions. Thus, sacred texts may reveal the 'mind' of the

holy spirit(s). Or, altered states of consciousness (trance,

glossolalia, the dream state during sleep, exhaustion due to

exertion, faintness due to a hunger fast, psychotropic ingestion,

etc.) may offer an entry to 'spiritual' truth. Some believe 'natural

wonders' provide 'signs' from the 'spiritual' realm (knocking sounds

on a table during a seance, for example, or even a flood or storm

may 'really' be a message from the higher power). Divination

techniques might be used. A 'guru' may be assumed to relay

information from the 'spiritual' realm. And so on.

Anyway, what defines 'spirituality' is that it posits a realm of

existence or being OUTSIDE the natural world, and inhabited by

entities or forces ('spirits') which can impact human life.

Now, 'religion' refers to a particular historical tradition

of 'spirituality'. All religions take this very general concept

of 'another realm of existence' and give it some concrete meaning.

Specific 'gods' or 'spirits' are conceptualized, specific techniques

for coming into contact with them are devised, specific actions by

humans are said to be required by the 'spirits', and so on.

Can one be 'spiritual' but not religious? Well, technically, I

suppose not, since any individual who believes another 'realm of

being' exists is going to have to think about that realm in some

concrete way. Even if these ideas are vague, when a person believes

in 'the spiritual realm', that belief will have some 'religious'

embodiment.

But, in common usage, what we mean by 'religion' is a SHARED set

of ideas about the 'spiritual' world. That is, we think about

churches, denominations, sects and cults. We don't usually think of

one person's idiosyncratic ideas about 'the spiritual' as being his

or her own 'personal religion' (though, technically, this is really

true.)

What about AA? I prefer to see AA today as a 'spiritual social

movement'. (In earlier days, I think one could have labeled it

better a 'spiritual cult', but I think it has now moved beyond the

cult stage).

AA accepts Buddhists, Muslims, Christians, Wiccans, and so on. It

also accepts members whose beliefs are totally idiosyncratic, AS LONG

AS they accept the idea of a 'spiritual realm', and some sort

of 'spiritual entity' as residing in that realm who can be appealed

to, and who can help. (The entity can be a plurality; there is no

monotheistic criteria)

What does AA NOT accept? I once asked an AA influential in his

region whether I would be acceptable as a member, if I were to

develop a drinking problem, given that I am a 100 % dedicated

materialist. (I am a 'naturalist', actually, but I used the

word 'materialist' in my conversation with him).

He responded that I would be welcome to attend if I developed a

drinking problem, and then wished to quit drinking. However, he

said, AA was a SPIRITUAL program, and I would have to develop some

concept of the spiritual before I would be able to 'work the

program.' Failing that, I would only be an observer. I could not

work the program if I did not develop my 'spirituality'.

I, personally, accept the idea that AA is 'spiritual, but not

religious'. It requires that members accept a dualistic view of

ontology, but it does not tell them how specifically to conceive of

the 'spiritual' realm. I would add to this, though, that AA is a

also a political movement, with deeply reactionary undertones.

Fascism, by the way, was also a movement which stressed, over and

over, that it was a 'spiritual, but not religious' movement. Some

leading fascists were Protestant, some Catholic, some 'pagan', and

some believed in a sort of mystic 'biology' (a kind of 'nature

religion). All of these versions of 'spirituality' were viewed as

acceptable. Materialism, though, was NOT viewed as acceptable in the

various fascist movements. Materialism was seen as a 'diseased'

worldview, suitable only to communists and Jews. (German Jews during

Weimar were mostly secular, not practicing, as are most Jews today in

the U.S., and even in Israel. I happen to think that the proclivity

of Jews to see the world in secular, natural terms largely explain

why so many Jewish names appear on the honor role of 19th and 20th

century science.)

> In a message dated 6/25/01 6:19:58 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> kenr1@c... writes:

>

> > Was use then would the word " apple " have?

> > " Spiritual " as it has come to be used has so many meanings, each

particular

> > to the

> > user, that the word itself is meaningless and serves to obscure

rather than

> > clarify anything.

> >

>

> Spirituality is not necessarily religious. But any program that

entails a

> belief in a supernatural entity, counsels confession to that

entity, praying

> to that entity, and turning one's life and will over to that

entity's care,

> is religious. Only a fool or a liar would deny this.

>

> --Mona--

June 25, 2001

Hi ,

>

> I, personally, accept the idea that AA is 'spiritual, but not

> religious'. It requires that members accept a dualistic view of

> ontology, but it does not tell them how specifically to conceive of

> the 'spiritual' realm. I would add to this, though, that AA is a

> also a political movement, with deeply reactionary undertones.

I disagree. I would agree except that AA *does* specifically tell

members how to conceive of the spiritual realm. It only says it

doesn't, but the reality is that it does--and not all variant

conceptualizations are accepted by any means.

IMO, *this* is the very reason that this organization has been so

successful. Over and over you hear that people of any faith or no

faith can practice the steps. But it isn't true, because the

conceptualizations that other religions employ can be *very*

contradictory. Both Rita and z have posted some excellent

analysis of this from their traditions. As an " agnostic " (for lack of

a better term), I know that it is absolutely incompatible with my

belief system.

Also, it must be remembered that the " only requirement for membership

is a desire to stop drinking. " I am surprised that your source added

any qualification to that. People go to stop drinking...but they come

away with a little *more*. Exactly as intended. Alcohol dependence

leaves some people feeling guilty and ready to take advice. It is

nothing more than a lever, a conversion technique.

, have you ever been to a meeting? Any first-hand experience? I

am almost tempted to " make " one after talking about it so much...just

to see if anything has changed.

TTYL,

PS: want to respond to your other post too, but it will have to wait

'till the morrow.

June 25, 2001

And there is an Appendix in AA comes of Age where a cleric, speaking

of his admiration for AA, describes it as " quintessentially

religious " .

P.

> this is my standard reply to the issue of aa " spirtuality "

>

> AA's Higher Power FBI Profile

> _____________________

> all facts about " Him " were offered by bill in Big Book and

12-steps.

> Bill tells us god is of our understanding, but he cant seem to help

himself from filling in the blanks

> for us as to how god works for us though. i guess if my

understanding of god is one which

> doesn't restore sanity (step 2), has a will for me to obey (steps 3

and 11) is in " conscious

> contact " with me (Steps 5 and 11), removes defects (Steps 6-7)

listens to my prayers (Step

> 11), i cant do steps. If i dont do steps, wilson threatens i will

" die " and sign my " own death

> warrant " .(1)

>

> (1)

> " unless each AA member follows to the best of his ability our

suggested Twelve Steps of

> recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant . . . We

must obey certain principles

> or we die. "

>

> -, W.] (1957). Alcoholics Anonymous Comes of Age, New York:

> Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., page 119

>

> These were found in minutes in a scan of a few chapters. It would

take a week to pull all the

> specific ideals expressed to describe how god of " our "

understanding is, and how this god of

> " our " understanding will work for us from the over 400 references to

" God " in BB.

>

> restores sanity

> listens to our prayers

> removes defects

> is a living creator and whom we are its children

> is male

> has conscious contact with us

> has relationships with us, has a will intended us to carry.

> Does for us what we could not do for ourselves.

> he is a " Creative Intelligence "

> " Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things "

> He doesn't make too hard terms with those who seek Him

> the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive

> is a All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence

> we are " intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever advancing

Creation "

> is the Spirit of the Universe

> Presence of Infinite Power and Love

>

> Steppers like to claim the steps are " spiritual. not religious " but

clearly, from the direction

> (supposedly " suggestions " ) not only are the 12-step religious, they

are specially religious, in

> that require the adoption of a specific understanding of this prayer

answering. defect removing

> god.

June 26, 2001

And FURTHERMORE....

take the ol' " my higher power is a doorknob " story... how in the hell can a

doorknob be a " creative intelligence " , be " in conscious contact with us " ,

and blah blah BLAH

it's-damn-obvious-how-can-ANYone-in-their-right-mind-NOT-see-it?