Re: Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

[Guest guest]

says, " All fortune, good

and bad, flows from the higher power. "

Ummm....all good fortune flows from the higher power, so I was told; but

anything bad was

my own fault. At least that was what I was told in PA.

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

At 09:41 PM 6/23/01 -0400, wrote:

> says, " All fortune, good

>and bad, flows from the higher power. "

>

>Ummm....all good fortune flows from the higher power, so I was told; but

anything bad was

>my own fault. At least that was what I was told in PA.

I think these statements can be, uh, " reconciled. "

Bad fortune flows from your higher power because of something you did.

Good fortune flows from your higher power in spite of all you did.

I can really start going with this - " I should be grateful for God's

Grace [meaning 'unmerited gift - not only did I NOT do anything TO deserve

it, I absolutely DO NOT deserve it - God gives it to me ONLY because God

is good and forgiving], I'm an alcoholic and I'm sober today, and that's

more than I deserve. "

" So if I go through the day and at the end of it if I haven't had a

drink, I'm ahead of the game and whatever else happens today, I can't call

it bad fortune, because I'm an alcoholic, and for me to be sober is a god-damn

mother-fucking MIRACLE. "

" Thanks for letting me share, it's always an honor and a priveledge

to be allowed to share in a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. "

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Are you implying that a child of mine has a neurological disorder which

causes him to have significant special needs, and he has been sexually

abused by someone outside of the home, and has had no childhood, & this bad

fortune is because of something " I " did?

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

>Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 22:25:32 -0400

>

>At 09:41 PM 6/23/01 -0400, wrote:

> > says, " All fortune, good

> >and bad, flows from the higher power. "

> >

> >Ummm....all good fortune flows from the higher power, so I was told; but

>anything bad was

> >my own fault. At least that was what I was told in PA.

>

> I think these statements can be, uh, " reconciled. "

>

> Bad fortune flows from your higher power because of something you did.

>

> Good fortune flows from your higher power in spite of all you did.

>

> I can really start going with this - " I should be grateful for God's

>Grace [meaning 'unmerited gift - not only did I NOT do anything TO deserve

>it, I absolutely DO NOT deserve it - God gives it to me ONLY because God

>is good and forgiving], I'm an alcoholic and I'm sober today, and that's

>more than I deserve. "

> " So if I go through the day and at the end of it if I haven't had a

>drink, I'm ahead of the game and whatever else happens today, I can't call

>it bad fortune, because I'm an alcoholic, and for me to be sober is a

>god-damn

>mother-fucking MIRACLE. "

>

> " Thanks for letting me share, it's always an honor and a priveledge

>to be allowed to share in a meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. "

>

>----------

>http://listen.to/benbradley

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[Guest guest]

asks, " Are you implying that a child of mine has a neurological disorder

which

causes him to have significant special needs, and he has been sexually

abused by someone outside of the home, and has had no childhood, & this bad

fortune is because of something " I " did? "

*I* am not implying any such thing, but I sure as hell have heard *other* people

imply it,

both in and out of the program.

I can't count how many times someone has said, " This happened to you because God

wanted to

teach you a lesson. "

Or to a parent whose child has died, " God works in myserious ways. He took your

child

because there is something you need to learn. "

To me, this has always seemed the height of arrogance and self-importance. God

thinks

*I'm* so damned important that he is willing to kill or hurt a child to teach

*me* a

lesson??? My child is expendable??? My child is no more than a tool to be used

to teach

me something???

And the pagans and new agers are not immune from this type of thinking. A

self-styled

" wytch " pompously proclaimed the great law of karma, declaring that if bad

things happen

to people, it's because they did bad things. If you are cursed with the burden

of a child

with special needs, well, it's your karma paying you back for your misdeeds.

And as for

your child, well, he obviously did something really horrible in his past life

which he has

to pay for in this life. It's all the inexorable law of karma, y'know...

Oh man, doesn't that suck....!

To hear that kind of crap on top of bearing a misfortune is just too damn much!

Some

people have soggy bread pudding where their brains should be.

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

At 01:12 PM 6/24/01 +0000, you wrote:

>Are you implying that a child of mine has a neurological disorder which

>causes him to have significant special needs, and he has been sexually

>abused by someone outside of the home, and has had no childhood, & this bad

>fortune is because of something " I " did?

No, Ben was parodying the way hardcore steppers talk. It was a

joke.

[Guest guest]

At 10:16 AM 6/24/01 -0400, wrote:

>At 01:12 PM 6/24/01 +0000, you wrote:

>>Are you implying that a child of mine has a neurological disorder which

>>causes him to have significant special needs, and he has been sexually

>>abused by someone outside of the home, and has had no childhood, & this bad

>>fortune is because of something " I " did?

I saw this post, but didn't even see it was in response to my message

until I saw 's response:

>

>No, Ben was parodying the way hardcore steppers talk. It was a

>joke.

Yes, absolutely, my post was meant to be as sarcastic as possible. In

my last years in AA I would talk that way, in a very strong, animated

voice (unusual for me), and some people in the meeting KNEW that I was

an atheist and didn't believe a word I was saying, that I was actually

mocking the program. Others apparently heard the sarcasm in my voice,

but hardly had a clue what was going on.

My apologies to anyone who may have read my earlier post and taken

it seriously. Apparently it needed some more explanation, or an emoticon

or sonmething.

>

>

----------

http://listen.to/benbradley

[Guest guest]

Ben --

I think most of the members of this list realized you were being

sarcastic and would not want you to change your posting style.

The person who took offense is new to the list and should probably

have read a few more posts before getting riled up. From the sound of her

reply, she is as fed up with steppist self-flagellation as we are and will

find this list very supportive.

-- Bob Marshall

----- Original Message -----

<snip>

> My apologies to anyone who may have read my earlier post and taken

> it seriously. Apparently it needed some more explanation, or an emoticon

> or sonmething.

[Guest guest]

Totally agree -- I like the way you post and find the sarcasm very intertaining. netty

Bob Marshall wrote: Ben -- I think most of the members of this list realized you were beingsarcastic and would not want you to change your posting style. The person who took offense is new to the list and should probablyhave read a few more posts before getting riled up. From the sound of herreply, she is as fed up with steppist self-flagellation as we are and willfind this list very supportive.-- Bob Marshall----- Original Message -----<snip>> My apologies to anyone who may have read my earlier post and taken> it seriously. Apparently it needed some more explanation, or an emoticon> or sonmething.

[Guest guest]

LOL!! - I really wasnt riled up, honestly, just asking a question to

clarify a point of view, which was done.

No apologies needed - even if it was meant serious, it would not have

angered me. I was just trying to comprehend where people are coming from

when they are serious about such a viewpoint, which was not the case here

anyway.

I REALLY am looking for answers as to how the 12 step philosophy reconciles

such issues, as I have yet to understand it. (That is why I wrote a letter

recently to my sponsor of 10 yrs ago asking such questions.)

This will sound SO program, but for me it is my truth - no one can upset me

unless I let them.

,

~I will not take my thoughts for granted,

for they may be my only guide.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: <12-step-free >

>Subject: Re: Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

>Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:12:00 -0700

>

>Ben --

>

> I think most of the members of this list realized you were being

>sarcastic and would not want you to change your posting style.

> The person who took offense is new to the list and should probably

>have read a few more posts before getting riled up. From the sound of her

>reply, she is as fed up with steppist self-flagellation as we are and will

>find this list very supportive.

>

>-- Bob Marshall

>

>

>----- Original Message -----

>

><snip>

> > My apologies to anyone who may have read my earlier post and taken

> > it seriously. Apparently it needed some more explanation, or an emoticon

> > or sonmething.

>

>

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[Guest guest]

<snip>

said -

>In my experience " the program " usually reconciles such things by

>blaming the questioner and/or minimizing the importance of the issues.

> From what you've written, I think you have been struggling with this

>fact. This is exactly why I began to question and ultimately left the

>program. I'd be curious to know what your sponsor's response was.

---->My experience has been the same as yours. Always minimizing the

misfortunes, saying, " get off the pity pot " , etc. I never felt validation

for my feelings. In fact, now that I am writing it just came back to me that

some meetings I attended actually had a policy that you could only share on

positive topics! I had forgotten that - now how sick is that??? People are

there because they are struggling, but we can only share on what is going

well in our lives. I guess the collective group felt if we didnt say it, it

didnt exist. Either that or because they were so insecure they were afraid

these misfortunes might be catchy. ( I go with the latter one)

My sponsor said that who am I to question a power greater than myself and

look at all the people worse off than myself - starving in foreign

countries, what the Jews have been thru in Nazi camps, war, etc. and he said

if I dont get off the pity pot, I'll be in real trouble.

I kept rereading the letter - still have it - hoping something would jump

out at me & make sense. Guess what? It doesnt.

>As to your other comments, why wouldn't you be upset if some $%# & sat

>there and judged your parenting and basically blamed you for the

>problems you have been experiencing as if you brought it on yourself?

> Contrary to what the program teaches, anger can be a powerful force

>for good and you are absolutely correct when you state that some

>things just do *suck*. They don't have an " upside, " they are not a

>punishment, they are not an " opportunity for growth. " And, as another

>member here once told me, I'd like to bitchslap the @#$% who said

>those things to you.

----> It's not that I dont feel anger, believe me I do. But I try not to

give other people power over me. I have been thru so much shit this past

year that I got to a point where I really dont care what people think of me.

I do feel that all that matters to me is how I feel between myself and my

Higher Power. that's all I care about - how others react doesnt phase me.

I'm getting too tired wasting that energy.

I agree, no they dont have an " upside " and what you went thru, I cant

imagine, but I can tell you I'd never tell you to get off the pity pot.

I'd say it sucked.

They " reconcile " by *blaming*

>the person suffering and by minimizing the issues ( " get off your

>pity-pot. At least you can walk. Did you ever think about people who

>don't have the use of their legs? " I heard this too).

---->yup - my experience exactly.

,

~I will not take my thoughts for granted,

for they may be my only guide.

_________________________________________________________________

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[Guest guest]

Dear Anne..life is sometimes not fair, life can be difficult, life is

mysterious, there is a lot i do not understand and never will. still i have

the desire not to drink..and i am constantly reinforcing that desire. no

god, just reality..

Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

>

>

> Hi again ,

> >

> > I REALLY am looking for answers as to how the 12 step philosophy

> reconciles

> > such issues, as I have yet to understand it. (That is why I wrote a

> letter

> > recently to my sponsor of 10 yrs ago asking such questions.)

>

> In my experience " the program " usually reconciles such things by

> blaming the questioner and/or minimizing the importance of the issues.

> From what you've written, I think you have been struggling with this

> fact. This is exactly why I began to question and ultimately left the

> program. I'd be curious to know what your sponsor's response was.

> Some AAs retain a sense of decency toward other human beings...but

> others do not. Misfortune in the program is usually viewed as

> personal failing on the part of the person suffering the misfortune.

>

> As to your other comments, why wouldn't you be upset if some $%# & sat

> there and judged your parenting and basically blamed you for the

> problems you have been experiencing as if you brought it on yourself?

> Contrary to what the program teaches, anger can be a powerful force

> for good and you are absolutely correct when you state that some

> things just do *suck*. They don't have an " upside, " they are not a

> punishment, they are not an " opportunity for growth. " And, as another

> member here once told me, I'd like to bitchslap the @#$% who said

> those things to you.

>

> My personal circumstance was that I had four miscarriages in a 2 year

> period after a 10 year struggle with infertility. The AAs that knew

> about this were the least helpful and most judgemental people that

> walked the face of the earth. I was told that the losses were " God's

> Will for me, " that I was being " taught a lesson " that it was really a

> good thing anyway because the babies were bound to be defective...one

> woman went as far as implying that they were miscarried due to FAS

> when I hadn't had a drink for years. They " reconcile " by *blaming*

> the person suffering and by minimizing the issues ( " get off your

> pity-pot. At least you can walk. Did you ever think about people who

> don't have the use of their legs? " I heard this too).

>

> I don't believe in GAWEH (God As We Understand Him) anymore. The

> conceptualization of the Higher Power through AA is too narrow and IMO

> too *personal*. I have heard AAs give credit to GAWEH for every

> possible thing imaginable--what a funny little god, running around

> doing everyone's bidding and throwing crazy obstacles at us because of

> our shortcomings.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

<snip>

> They " reconcile " by *blaming*

> the person suffering and by minimizing the issues ( " get off your

> pity-pot. At least you can walk. Did you ever think about people who

> don't have the use of their legs? " I heard this too).

Or, as I once read:

" I cried because I had no feet, until I met a man who had no penis. "

(Can't remember where, or I would credit the author.)

-- Bob Marshall

[Guest guest]

Or, as I once read:

>

> " I cried because I had no feet, until I met a man who had no

>penis. "

>

> (Can't remember where, or I would credit the author.)

>

>-- Bob Marshall

>

Good one! - what was that guys name? Bobbit?

,

~I will not take my thoughts for granted,

for they may be my only guide.

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Mike, I thought it was funny. I find it helpful to not give others opinions

so much power over me. I have found humor to be a great coping tool.

I try not to lose my sense of self in that with which I disagree. If I dont

like something I choose not to be a part of it, live & let live is not such

a bad concept.

I dont mean this as an attack but an observation - you appear very defensive

and angry but I think it is focused at 12 step groups to put up a smoke

screen for yourself as to what is really bothering you. I'm not your

therapist & you dont have to answer me, but I am interested to know if you

feel this angry & defensive all the time or just when discussing 12 steps?

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: <12-step-free >

>Subject: Re: Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

>Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 07:04:44 -0400

>

>Now you think blaspheme is wit? Mike.

> Re: Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

>

>

> > ----- Original Message -----

> >

> > <snip>

> > > They " reconcile " by *blaming*

> > > the person suffering and by minimizing the issues ( " get off your

> > > pity-pot. At least you can walk. Did you ever think about people who

> > > don't have the use of their legs? " I heard this too).

> >

> > Or, as I once read:

> >

> > " I cried because I had no feet, until I met a man who had no

>penis. "

> >

> > (Can't remember where, or I would credit the author.)

> >

> > -- Bob Marshall

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

LOL! I'm powerless! I'm powerless! I'm powerless to understand what Mona has

written! I

can only turn my intellect over the care of the dictionary as I read it, and

pray for

conscious comprehension of Mona's meaning and the power to talk that way myself!

(Hi, Mike...Mona's just having some fun here. :-) And I'm just having some

fun, too.)

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

She is full of shit. She cannot admit she made a grammar error, and she

cannot, of course prove she is right. I didn't know she was like this, but

like I said, I have learned something about her.

Your inability to transcend dichotomous, text-based Strunk-Whitism is perturbing at best. The orations giving rise to your paeans to self-mutiliation of the psyche, are the issue at hand. Not one of the many giants of self-aware theodicy, from Horatio Alger to Martha , embraces your meekness-cum-virtue leitmotif. Yet you persist.

Why?

Perhaps if you pondered this facile theory at the level I intend you to, you would surmount your difficulty. Try C. Manson on the Skeltering of Psychodrama, or J. W. Gacy on Pugilistics.

--Mona--

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

What was that guy's problem??!!! I don't feel a lack at all...

I feel no particular inadequacy, either. But Bob's pithy quotation does give a new dimension to "penis envy." Penis gratitude -- fitting for XA members.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

(Hi, Mike...Mona's just having some fun here. :-)

Shhhhh.

[Guest guest]

I'm powerless to understand what Mona has written! I

can only turn my intellect over the care of the dictionary as I read it, and pray for

conscious comprehension of Mona's meaning and the power to talk that way myself!

Beginning about 20 years ago, I noticed there was a certain type of person who wrote letters to the editor of various publications. Such persons set forth long-winded positions regarding, um, whatever it was that was on their mind. Frequently it was nigh unto impossible to discern what exactly it was that was on their mind, because gleaning same from their prose was, er, problematic.

Over the years I have clipped and filed many of these gems. On occasion, I plagiarize, or else I merely take my inspiration. Either way, I have found it to be a vastly entertaining way to Increase My Word Power, and as the radio ads remind us, people do judge you by the words you use.

Unctuously and oh-so-officiously yours,

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

<snip>

>a new dimension to " penis envy. " Penis gratitude -- fitting for XA

>members.

>

>--Mona--

----->Too funny!!!!

~I will not take my thoughts for granted,

for they may be my only guide.

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

By the way, Jesus Christ is a 'high functioning prestidigitator " who

advocates "humility cum abasement".

YES! By , you're getting it, Mike! And the 12 Steps are drawn from, and written by a convert to, the Oxford Group, which was a religious movement devoted to the high-functioning prestidigitator, Jesus Christ. You are beginning to see.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Where did you learn this stuff? It's so far over my head I tip over. I'm impressed, and my dictionary is wore out. My husband was always trying to get me to learn new words and I find it helps to get the brain working in parts I never realized I had. So thank-you-----

Netty, I can't properly lay claim to having learned any of that stuff, because actually, it is all adulterated [sic] bullshit. It was my way of

communicating what Ken said to Mike much, much more directly. But I am a lady, and do not care to resort to vulgarity.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

I truly appreciate your answer - But maybe Mike, there truth is different

from yours. But okay let's assume its not - so what if they choose to see

things from a different perspective? Let them rant & rave & throw a party!

Only you know your truth & only you can share your truth.

Personally, why waste your energy getting upset over it? You have a lot of

energy & opnions that I bet could be channeled in more positive ways for

YOU.

,

~I will not take my thoughts for granted,

for they may be my only guide.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: <12-step-free >

>Subject: Re: Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

>Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:12:27 -0400

>

>I get agitated and defensive when I see people bashing someone or

>something with no regards to truth , reasonableness and reality. The things

>I see people here say happen at twelve step group meetings I NEVER saw

>once

>in about 100 - 150 meetings . Mike.

> Re: Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

> > >

> > >

> > > > ----- Original Message -----

> > > >

> > > > <snip>

> > > > > They " reconcile " by *blaming*

> > > > > the person suffering and by minimizing the issues ( " get off your

> > > > > pity-pot. At least you can walk. Did you ever think about people

>who

> > > > > don't have the use of their legs? " I heard this too).

> > > >

> > > > Or, as I once read:

> > > >

> > > > " I cried because I had no feet, until I met a man who had no

> > >penis. "

> > > >

> > > > (Can't remember where, or I would credit the author.)

> > > >

> > > > -- Bob Marshall

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

----- Original Message -----

> Lighten up.

>

>

<snip>

> > You think you are pretty smart, but I bet I could WAX you in a game

> of chess. Boys are better than girls at chess-you know why? Because

> boys are SMARTER than girls. Mike.

Yeah, and an autistic savant could perform mathematical and date

calculations, or play a musical instrument, or solve certain types of

puzzles far better than I ever could.

For that matter, I remember an old carnival game where the chicken

always wins playing tic tac toe, so I guess a turkey can probably play

chess.

-- Bob Marshall

[Guest guest]

True, I've met liars in program, too. One man I met in program was truly 30

yrs sober & felt he worked a great program, all the while cheating on his

wife - he even tried to pick me up. He was disgusting. I soon learned that

when people bragged about how many yrs they had in program it didnt mean

crap to me - someone who had one day could be a lot more well balanced.

>From: caenemy@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

>Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:48:22 -0000

>

>

>Mike,

> Go to different meetings and know what to watch for. The 'gurus'

>I'm aware of have their own home group(their turf) and when looking

>for a new prospect usually go back to home base -cause I think- most

>of his victims are afraid to return do to the fact he knows so much

>about them and will use it against them if need be. (keep you quiet)

>I've seen this done--and has been used on me. Also have

>seen 'guru's' fight over new prospect's. Learn what to watch for,

>ask about previous sponsee's--then check the story out. Cause they

>can lie like a son-of-bicth.

>netty

>

>

>

>

> > > I get agitated and defensive when I see people bashing someone

>or

> > > something with no regards to truth , reasonableness and reality.

>The

> > things

> > > I see people here say happen at twelve step group meetings I

>NEVER

> > saw once

> > > in about 100 - 150 meetings . Mike.

> > > Re: Re: Further Akron AA lunacy

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----

> > > > > > From: <ahicks@s...>

> > > > > > <snip>

> > > > > > > They " reconcile " by *blaming*

> > > > > > > the person suffering and by minimizing the issues ( " get

>off

> > your

> > > > > > > pity-pot. At least you can walk. Did you ever think

>about

> > people

> > > who

> > > > > > > don't have the use of their legs? " I heard this too).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Or, as I once read:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " I cried because I had no feet, until I met a man

>who

> > had no

> > > > >penis. "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (Can't remember where, or I would credit the

>author.)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > -- Bob Marshall

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >