Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 As a Scot I can testify that the police are as corrupt here as they are in any country. If something was done in regard to AA here it was politically sanctioned. >From: kayleighs@... >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: AA lunacy >Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 22:28:24 -0000 > >Different meetings do indeed have different flavors. That flavor is >probably pretty uniform in small towns, and pretty uniform in places >where the majority of AA members have gone to a particular treatment >program. New York and San Francisco are probably more sophisticated >than Ames, IA. > >My problem is with rape and child molestation within AA is that the >very philosophy of the program prevents people from taking the steps >they should to right the wrong. " Powerless...accept the things I >cannot change [namely, things that have already happened]...everything >in God's world is exactly as it should be...your best thinking got >you here.... " See what I mean? I have heard a woman say it was her >fault she was raped because she was drunk at the time. Gosh, didn't >the guy have something to do with it? Would it have been better if >she had been retarded, senile or in a coma? > >In schools, universities and religious institutions people often are >pretty clear about what their rights are. I don't mean to say that >people in positions of authority don't take advantage of their >authority to get away with these kinds of acts, or make their victims >think it's okay to do what they're doing. But in those institutions >there is a clear line of authority over abusers to which a victim can >appeal, and I don't think there are many people who aren't aware of >that nowadays. In AA there is no authority to which to appeal, " each >group is autonomous, " and victims are made to examine what they >contributed to the situation. > >The anonymity principle keeps lots of people from reporting what they >otherwise would have reported. They think this amounts to some sort >of statutory confidentiality requirement, though it doesn't. >Respecting anonymity is a totally voluntary behavior, and there is no >binding force in it at all. People don't know this, particularly >people who've been through treatment and are aware of the >confidentiality requirements imposed on the staff. People are also >taught not to think, to do everything their sponsors ask them to do, >to greet every eventuality with " At least s/he didn't drink. " > >There was a guy here in town who was aghast when he was arrested after >he had confessed to a murder when he was giving a presentation on >alcoholism as an admitted AA member. In the newspaper they quoted him >as saying, " What about anonymity? " Not very bright, I admit, but >nevertheless stuff he'd been led to believe. As a matter of pure >chance, he simply hadn't mentioned this before. > >I have no clue whether what I said saved this girl from her fate (as >you put it), and while sarcasm in undoubtedly an effective way to make >a point, it tends to create resistance in the recipient. > >You have joined the list very recently, so you are not aware of the >postings about the GSO in Scotland, whom the police told to notify all >the groups about an abuse that was occurring and had been reported to >the police, and to state that it wouldn't be tolerated. Americans >have too much veneration for AA (like Ann and Abby) to realize how its >nonstructure contributes to abuses, so police would never do what the >Scots did. And presumably, if they did, the GSO here has enough clout >to ignore it, what with celebrities of every stripe here openly saying >that AA saved their lives. > >I think you ought to educate yourself about the extent to which the >GSO can and does set AA policy, and how they hide behind the >traditions when they simply don't feel like it. There's some stuff >about that on the about.com alcoholism site, and links to other stuff >from there, and I'm sure other members of this list can point you to >other sites as well. > > > > > > I have to say the thumbnail description of this event doesn't > > jibe with my experience of the program at all. I spent more > > than 10 years in program & went to more meetings than I > > can count. > > > > I'm not calling anyone a liar, though. There are so many > > different flavors of the groups that anything's possible. > > ><snip> > > > " It is enough to know that someone was once raped, > > one child was once abused. " WTF? > > > > So every human institution in which someone was once > > raped or a child was once abused is inherently evil? > > > > Name one human institution that's immune from this sort > > of corruption. I guess orphanages have to go, as do schools, > > universities, religious institutions. Pretty much every > > human institution in which people have physical contact has > > had somebody raped or abused at some point. > > > > Probably e-mail lists are safe, as long as nobody actually meets > > in the flesh. Unless we're counting written/verbal abuse. > > ><snip> > > > > *This* sort of comment would jibe with my experience of the >program: > > > > " You have a choice. You can comply with the teacher & possibly >get an A. > > You can report the teacher to certain authorities - this may >stop the > > teacher > > from acting that way, but you may also make more trouble for >yourself by > > doing that. You can possibly get help from this agency or that >agency. > > > > The truth is that whatever action you take the outcome is >uncertain. You do > > not > > have complete control of this situation. Take the best action >you see, turn > > the > > results over. Once you've done the footwork you are powerless >over the > > outcome, > > so there is no point in letting this man disturb your mind while >you are > > waiting for > > events to take their course. Don't let worrying about the >outcome cause you > > to > > do (X). That would only make things worse for you than they >already are. " > > > > That could easily be condensed to " you are powerless " by someone >who > > wants to shade the truth in a certain way, or is predisposed to >seeing the > > truth a certain way. > > > > I am so glad that this sage advice you gave about those >wonderful > > agencies in town saved this girl from her fate, though. Those >weren't > > by any chance agencies where people have actual physical >contact, > > were they? > > > > R > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 As A Brit I can " testify " that this paranoid horseshit. > > As a Scot I can testify that the police are as corrupt here as they are in > any country. If something was done in regard to AA here it was politically > sanctioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 > Different meetings do indeed have different flavors. That flavor is > probably pretty uniform in small towns, and pretty uniform in places > where the majority of AA members have gone to a particular treatment > program. New York and San Francisco are probably more sophisticated > than Ames, IA. > > My problem is with rape and child molestation within AA is that the > very philosophy of the program prevents people from taking the steps > they should to right the wrong. " Powerless...accept the things I > cannot change [namely, things that have already happened]...everything > in God's world is exactly as it should be...your best thinking got > you here.... " See what I mean? I have heard a woman say it was her > fault she was raped because she was drunk at the time. Gosh, didn't > the guy have something to do with it? Would it have been better if > she had been retarded, senile or in a coma? THANK YOU! for writing this. This issue pisses me off! A good 15% of rape cases are deemed " unfounded " because the woman had been drinking. Apparently that means that rape didn't occur. Bullshit. > > In schools, universities and religious institutions people often are > pretty clear about what their rights are. I don't mean to say that > people in positions of authority don't take advantage of their > authority to get away with these kinds of acts, or make their victims > think it's okay to do what they're doing. But in those institutions > there is a clear line of authority over abusers to which a victim can > appeal, and I don't think there are many people who aren't aware of > that nowadays. In AA there is no authority to which to appeal, " each > group is autonomous, " and victims are made to examine what they > contributed to the situation. This happens ALL the time. It doesn't matter if they were drunk or not, in all actuality. If you were/are the victim of *anything* then you had " a part to play. " Fuck that. Yes. I fucking well am pissed off about it (to ROB). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 Hi , Interestingly in the UK recently some men were convicted of *conspiracy* to rape, even though they never touched her, *because* she was drunk. iirc the car they were in was stopped by police and she came round saying " Who are these men? " and later reported that she had heard them plotting to have sex with her. A psychologist testified that at her level of intoxication she was incapapble of giving informed consent and hence even if she apparently verbally gave consent it was still rape. Some of the men were found not guilty and I think those convicted are appealing on the basis that the psychologist's testimony was wrong. Imo the idea that someone can be too drunk to give informed consent is a good one. P. > THANK YOU! for writing this. This issue pisses me off! A good 15% of > rape cases are deemed " unfounded " because the woman had been drinking. > Apparently that means that rape didn't occur. Bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 You go, girl! > > Different meetings do indeed have different flavors. That flavor is > > probably pretty uniform in small towns, and pretty uniform in places > > where the majority of AA members have gone to a particular treatment > > program. New York and San Francisco are probably more sophisticated > > than Ames, IA. > > > > My problem is with rape and child molestation within AA is that the > > very philosophy of the program prevents people from taking the steps > > they should to right the wrong. " Powerless...accept the things I > > cannot change [namely, things that have already > happened]...everything > > in God's world is exactly as it should be...your best thinking got > > you here.... " See what I mean? I have heard a woman say it was her > > fault she was raped because she was drunk at the time. Gosh, didn't > > the guy have something to do with it? Would it have been better if > > she had been retarded, senile or in a coma? > > THANK YOU! for writing this. This issue pisses me off! A good 15% of > rape cases are deemed " unfounded " because the woman had been drinking. > Apparently that means that rape didn't occur. Bullshit. > > > > In schools, universities and religious institutions people often are > > pretty clear about what their rights are. I don't mean to say that > > people in positions of authority don't take advantage of their > > authority to get away with these kinds of acts, or make their > victims > > think it's okay to do what they're doing. But in those institutions > > there is a clear line of authority over abusers to which a victim > can > > appeal, and I don't think there are many people who aren't aware of > > that nowadays. In AA there is no authority to which to appeal, > " each > > group is autonomous, " and victims are made to examine what they > > contributed to the situation. > > This happens ALL the time. It doesn't matter if they were drunk or > not, in all actuality. If you were/are the victim of *anything* then > you had " a part to play. " Fuck that. Yes. I fucking well am pissed > off about it (to ROB). > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2001 Report Share Posted June 27, 2001 As an ex-political prisoner I can testify that it is not. >From: watts_pete@... >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: AA lunacy >Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:34:19 -0000 > >As A Brit I can " testify " that this paranoid horseshit. > > > > > > As a Scot I can testify that the police are as corrupt here as they >are in > > any country. If something was done in regard to AA here it was >politically > > sanctioned. > > _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2001 Report Share Posted June 27, 2001 > As an ex-political prisoner I can testify that it is not. Political prisoner in the UK ? What are you, an IRA man or something? What the hell has any of that got to do with your ability to claim that the Government told the police to go after AA God only knows. Regarding your earlier post btw, as ever, your account of me, my views, our interaction, and the views that in reality you express is pretty well the reverse of the truth. Say to other ppl what you damn well please, but if you believe in not being " brave long distance " then dont call mne a " junkie " unless youre prepared to meet me face to face and say it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2001 Report Share Posted June 27, 2001 OK. For the sake of argument let's say a man takes $500 cash downtown to score heroin. He's only able to score $200 worth of heroin, so he promptly shoots that up & and nods out on the corner with $300 in his pocket. He wakes up the next day, the $300 are gone. Yes - this is the *fault* of the thieves who took his money. However, it is appropriate for this man to look at his own behavior also. In fact, if this man *only* focuses on how bad the thieves are, and doesn't change his own behavior *at all*, we can pretty much guarantee that he'll continue to get robbed on a regular basis, no? Isn't this how the world really works? ahicks@... wrote: > > THANK YOU! for writing this. This issue pisses me off! A good 15% of > rape cases are deemed " unfounded " because the woman had been drinking. > Apparently that means that rape didn't occur. Bullshit. > > > > In schools, universities and religious institutions people often are > > pretty clear about what their rights are. I don't mean to say that > > people in positions of authority don't take advantage of their > > authority to get away with these kinds of acts, or make their > victims > > think it's okay to do what they're doing. But in those institutions > > there is a clear line of authority over abusers to which a victim > can > > appeal, and I don't think there are many people who aren't aware of > > that nowadays. In AA there is no authority to which to appeal, > " each > > group is autonomous, " and victims are made to examine what they > > contributed to the situation. > > This happens ALL the time. It doesn't matter if they were drunk or > not, in all actuality. If you were/are the victim of *anything* then > you had " a part to play. " Fuck that. Yes. I fucking well am pissed > off about it (to ROB). > > I can't speak about being a victim of *anything* - too general. I *think* this is a response to the thread about the woman who came into a meeting saying some professor had offerred to give her an " A " if she slept with him, and would give her an " F " if she didn't. The people in the meeting all told her she was powerless .... First of all, in SFNA, commenting directly or giving advice would be crosstalk, and so disallowed. BUT ... A question that comes to mind is ... (I'm channeling AA-think here ...) Is she saying that she earned an A with her hard work, but the professor's going to flunk her anyway if she doesn't fuck him? Or is she saying that she was too high or drunk to make her classes or study and so fully earned the F, and this professor's offering her a chance to become (literally) a grade-whore if she really thinks she has to have that A. Since she's sharing about this in some AA or NA meeting, and not in Women Student Services, my guess would be that she earned the F. This professor should be gotten rid of. He's definitely a kind of opportunistic predator. But this particular girl just might not be the one to do it. The best thing for *her* is probably just to take the F she earned, and the lesson that comes with it, and do better next time. It's probably better *for her* to focus on her own part, not on how she was (almost) victimized. There's way more *power* for her in seeing her own part than in focusing on how bad this man is. R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2001 Report Share Posted June 28, 2001 > > > > > THANK YOU! for writing this. This issue pisses me off! A good 15% of > > rape cases are deemed " unfounded " because the woman had been drinking. > > Apparently that means that rape didn't occur. Bullshit. > > > > > > In schools, universities and religious institutions people often are > > > pretty clear about what their rights are. I don't mean to say that > > > people in positions of authority don't take advantage of their > > > authority to get away with these kinds of acts, or make their > > victims > > > think it's okay to do what they're doing. But in those institutions > > > there is a clear line of authority over abusers to which a victim > > can > > > appeal, and I don't think there are many people who aren't aware of > > > that nowadays. In AA there is no authority to which to appeal, > > " each > > > group is autonomous, " and victims are made to examine what they > > > contributed to the situation. > > > > > This happens ALL the time. It doesn't matter if they were drunk or > > not, in all actuality. If you were/are the victim of *anything* then > > you had " a part to play. " Fuck that. Yes. I fucking well am pissed > > off about it (to ROB). > > > > > > I can't speak about being a victim of *anything* - too general. In the example I was giving above I was thinking about rape. Just plain old garden variety rape with no special circumstances. In the AA that I went to, I saw more than one woman try to find the " part " they'd played in their rapes! It was hard for them to do because, really they hadn't contributed to it. Some asshole raped them! But even if they had been drinking, is this a license in your view? For anyone to go whatever they want? Believe me, this dynamic is alive and *well* in our culture. No. I don't care if a woman drank herself into near coma, she doesn't deserve to be raped. Even if she is a prostitute, even if she was wearing a short skirt, even if she was out after dark. > I *think* this is a response to the thread about the woman > who came into a meeting saying some professor had > offerred to give her an " A " if she slept with him, and > would give her an " F " if she didn't. The people in the > meeting all told her she was powerless .... > > First of all, in SFNA, commenting directly or giving advice > would be crosstalk, and so disallowed. BUT ... > > A question that comes to mind is ... > (I'm channeling AA-think here ...) > > Is she saying that she earned an A with her hard work, > but the professor's going to flunk her anyway if she > doesn't fuck him? > > Or is she saying that she was too high or drunk > to make her classes or study and so fully earned > the F, and this professor's offering her a chance > to become (literally) a grade-whore if she really > thinks she has to have that A. > > Since she's sharing about this in some AA or NA meeting, > and not in Women Student Services, my guess would be > that she earned the F. > > This professor should be gotten rid of. > He's definitely a kind of opportunistic predator. > > But this particular girl just might not be the one to do it. > The best thing for *her* is probably just to take the F > she earned, and the lesson that comes with it, and do > better next time. It's probably better *for her* to focus > on her own part, not on how she was (almost) victimized. The " F she earned " ? I don't think that Kayleighs gave enough information for this conclusion to be drawn. Fucking the professor should not be part of *any* grading process. If she showed up drunk, didn't take good notes, failed the tests, just didn't show up...those could be causes for a poor grade. Not failing to allow the professor to rape her. > > There's way more *power* for her in seeing her own > part than in focusing on how bad this man is. I disagree. You are assuming that because she was in an AA meeting that she was drinking. How do you get that? She may have been abstinent for the longest time as many in AA claim to be. You are further assuming that if she was drinking that she has some type of moral failing and " deserves " to be treated like shit. She doesn't. The true power this woman could exercise is to make the instructor's actions known. To blow the whistle on this jerk. Who *knows* how long and to how many people he had been doing this very same tactic to. This is the action that takes courage and that weilds power. *Not* figuring out how to make it OK, when it isn't, whether she is drunk or sober. An example from my own experience happened as a result of a custody battle over my step-daughter. This came up under the " resentment " area. J's grandmother entered into the battle as an " intervenor " and after a two year battle was awarded custody. Her mother was totally out of the picture because she was in jail and J. lived with us that whole time. As " intervenor " the grandmother had accused my husband of molesting his daughter's older sister seven years before. Ah, it is a long story and too long for tonight. But over and over I was told that in order to work the program I would have to make amends to this person. I had to look for my part - because whenever people disagree the " alcoholic's " character defects are in the reason...correct? Luckily for me, I had a shread of dignity left. Balk, balk, balk. I didn't have a " part, " and certainly no " amends " to make. If the same thing came up again today I would do things exactly the same way. I would fight to keep my family intact to the best of my ability. My problem was that we *lost*, not that we tried. But the program makes no distinction! If you have a " resentment " , it is because you have a " part. " This is truly slave mentality. This is the nuts and bolts of changing your perceptions to match those of the oppressor. To make it OK. To take the onus of responsibility for every negative thing that happens to you in your life and therefore become powerless to change those situations. There *is* nothing to change but yourself, your reactions and your perceptions with this philosophy of life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2001 Report Share Posted June 28, 2001 ahicks@... wrote: > Well, maybe he will invest in a money belt the next time. Or maybe he > will go to his friend's house that he trusts and employ a bit of > harm/risk management. But no...he shouldn't HAVE to do that. The > fault does lie with the theives. ... Indeed, finding a safer place to shoot, being more careful with the money, all these things would be ways in which the man could change *his own* behavior. I didn't say anything other than " if this man *only* focuses on how bad the thieves are, and doesn't change his own behavior *at all*, we can pretty much guarantee that he'll continue to get robbed on a regular basis. " > > Underlying your example is a hostility toward a herion user that IMO > is meritless. This guy isn't doing anything worse than the next guy > and doesn't deserve to be made the victim of a crime any more than the > old lady. You're projecting this. In fact, I have no moral judgement about using heroin at all. I didn't say he should stop shooting heroin. I didn't say there's anything wrong with shooting heroin. The paragraph above says more about your attitudes & assumptions than it does about mine. > > In the example I was giving above I was thinking about rape. Just > plain old garden variety rape with no special circumstances. In the > AA that I went to, I saw more than one woman try to find the " part " > they'd played in their rapes! It was hard for them to do because, > really they hadn't contributed to it. Some asshole raped them! > Blindly & mindlessly applying the " look for your own part in things " rule is just as bad as blindly & mindlessly applying the " don't blame the victim " rule. They are both blind & mindless applications of generalizations. There is no substitute for being conscious. I'm sorry that you found some of that idiocy in AA. Recovery is just like anything else - the " 90% of anything is crap " rule applies there too. To find the good stuff you may need to look a bit harder. > > But even if they had been drinking, is this a license in your view? Of course not, don't be ridiculous. > > For anyone to go whatever they want? Believe me, this dynamic is > alive and *well* in our culture. No. I don't care if a woman drank > herself into near coma, she doesn't deserve to be raped. Even if she > is a prostitute, even if she was wearing a short skirt, even if she > was out after dark. > However, if a prostitute habitually gets drunk to the point of passing out on the street in her work clothes, you're *not helping her* if you don't suggest that she look at her own behavior. All you're doing is making some sort of socio-political point at her expense. > The " F she earned " ? I don't think that Kayleighs gave enough > information for this conclusion to be drawn. I think actually that Kayleighs gave entirely enough info to show that it is the most likely situation. If the girl had earned a passing grade, she would have something to show for it. She could demonstrate her knowledge of the subject matter. She could go to student services, show them the records of her passing mid-terms, papers, whatever. She would have a great deal of credibility & would be a real threat to the professor. Professors that threaten their " A " students with this kind of thing tend not to last very long. Professors who make these kinds of offers to failing students can last a very long time indeed, and probably have their offers accepted often enough that they continue making them. Isn't this the way the world really works? That isn't to say I know for sure that it was one way or the other. I do believe that the most probable situation is that she was failing the class anyway. I do know for sure that if she walks into an AA or NA meeting as a newcomer with that kind of share, that's pretty much what everyone's going to assume. In the absence of 12-step coercion it's an even better assumption. R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2001 Report Share Posted June 28, 2001 OK Rob, > > I didn't say anything other than " if this man *only* focuses on how bad > the thieves are, and doesn't change his own behavior *at all*, we can > pretty much guarantee that he'll continue to get robbed on a regular > basis. " You got me there. That is just exactly what you said and you made no moral judgement about herion use. But you *did* make a whole host of judgments about the woman in the meeting. Kayleighs' original quote: " How about this one: a girl came in once and said her teacher at school said she could get an A if she slept with him an would get an F if she refused. Two dozen people said she was powerless before my turn, whereupon I informed her of the agencies in town that I knew of that could help her. What would you have commented if that had happened in one of your meetings? " Your response: " I think actually that Kayleighs gave entirely enough info to show that it is the most likely situation. (see " situation " below). If the girl had earned a passing grade, she would have something to show for it. She could demonstrate her knowledge of the subject matter. She could go to student services, show them the records of her passing mid-terms, papers, whatever. She would have a great deal of credibility & would be a real threat to the professor. Professors that threaten their " A " students with this kind of thing tend not to last very long. Professors who make these kinds of offers to failing students can last a very long time indeed, and probably have their offers accepted often enough that they continue making them. Isn't this the way the world really works? " Hmmmm. I wonder why I " assumed " that you were posing the herion user as a scumbag that deserved to be robbed? You have definitely assumed that the girl didn't have a passing grade. You further assume that the reason for this is her drinking/drugging. What I say is that *neither of these conditions counts for fuckall, even if true!!!!!* She *STILL* shouldn't be coerced into sex by an instructor. It is NOT OK. She doesn't need to " look for her part, " she needs to turn the bastard in. It is *he,* not she that is breaking the student/teacher relationship. > > Blindly & mindlessly applying the " look for your own part in things " > rule is just as bad as blindly & mindlessly applying the " don't > blame the victim " rule. They are both blind & mindless applications > of generalizations. There is no substitute for being conscious. The AA I was exposed to employed " look for your part " in every conceivable situation. My custody battle, even my miscarriages. It is built into the steps and a main reason why they are inherently bad for people. > > I'm sorry that you found some of that idiocy in AA. Recovery > is just like anything else - the " 90% of anything is crap " rule > applies there too. To find the good stuff you may need to > look a bit harder. LOL. You are a card. <Was is Speedy who said " he don't know me very well... " >? > I do know for sure that if she walks into an AA or NA meeting > as a newcomer with that kind of share, that's pretty much what > everyone's going to assume. In the absence of 12-step coercion > it's an even better assumption. > > R This illustrates my point to perfection. XA teaches people how to tolerate intolerable situations, and blame themselves for them. As I said before, the only thing that can possibly be changed in AA philosophy is your perception or reaction to the situation, never the *situation* itself. That would be just too much self-will, would it not? Kayleighs, *thank you* again for your action of going against the tide and letting that woman know that in fact she does have some power, even in an uneven situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2001 Report Share Posted June 28, 2001 Hi again, - ahicks@... wrote: Kayleighs' original quote: "How about this one: a girl came in once and said her teacher at school said she could get an A if she slept with him an would get an F if she refused. Two dozen people said she was powerless before my turn, whereupon I informed her of the agencies in town that I knew of that could help her. What would you have commented if that had happened in one of your meetings?" She's a newcomer sharing this at an AA meeting. Why on earth is she coming into AA with this if alcohol isn't a factor? Hmmmm. I wonder why I "assumed" that you were posing the herion user as a scumbag that deserved to be robbed? You have definitely assumed that the girl didn't have a passing grade. You further assume that the reason for this is her drinking/drugging. Based on the fact that she's a newcomer sharing this at AA, it's not a bad assumption. What I say is that *neither of these conditions counts for fuckall, even if true!!!!!* She *STILL* shouldn't be coerced into sex by an instructor. It is NOT OK. She doesn't need to "look for her part," she needs to turn the bastard in. It is *he,* not she that is breaking the student/teacher relationship. From the point of view that ending the sexist oppression of women is the most important thing in the world, I suppose you're right. However, let's assume that I'm also right, that she was drunk or high, and so blew the class and left herself open for this bastard ... Let's further assume she's able to get the bastard thrown off the staff of the university and into the jail as he so richly deserves, and he never is able to harass another woman as long as he lives. And she changes nothing about her own behavior. What happens to *her* next semester? Maybe she doesn't get harassed (at least not by that guy) but she still keeps flunking out. This illustrates my point to perfection. XA teaches people how to tolerate intolerable situations, and blame themselves for them. Not at all. It's about teaching people not to keep placing themselves in the same intolerable situations over & over again. Remember "making the same mistakes & expecting different results?" The thing is that addicts *actually do this* all the time. Maybe you thought the junkie example was some kind of cartoon, but it's not very far from a bunch of stories I've heard in NA. Complete with the junkie waking up, being totally pissed about getting robbed (and so unable to buy another shot) and blaming everything & everybody without looking at his own actions *at all.* However, it's also important to remember that sometimes bad things just happen. That's part of life. Nobody wants to get old & die, but we're all going to anyway - and that's only if we're lucky. So using the brain remains important. R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2001 Report Share Posted June 28, 2001 > > > Kayleighs' original quote: " How about this one: a girl came in once > > and said her teacher at school said she could get an A if she slept > > with him an would get an F if she refused. Two dozen people said she > > was powerless before my turn, whereupon I informed her of the agencies > > in town that I knew of that could help her. What would you have > > commented if that had happened in one of your meetings? " > > She's a newcomer sharing this at an AA meeting. > Why on earth is she coming into AA with this if > alcohol isn't a factor? You don't even know that she is a " newcomer. " She could have been abstinent for a long time and trying a different meeting. You don't know that she was recently using. Yet, you have assumed the very worst about this woman, who is coming to the *frigging* meeting for support. WTF, maybe she was a " c " student that wasn't good at accounting (or whatever). You don't know further, yet, for the simple reason that she had a negative consequence you assume that it is she who needs to change. > > From the point of view that ending the sexist oppression of women > is the most important thing in the world, I suppose you're right. The " fuck-you " concession. I would argue the same with any combination of gender situations. The instructor has the power in this situation because he is giving the grades. If you want to substitute a female prof and a male student, the same still holds. The grade is based on subject mastery and performance, *not* sexual favors. > > However, let's assume that I'm also right, that she was drunk or high, > and so blew the class and left herself open for this bastard ... > > Let's further assume she's able to get the bastard thrown off the staff > of the university and into the jail (I didn't say that) as he so richly deserves, and he > never > is able to harass another woman as long as he lives. Then she has used her power and has achieved a concrete " positive " in the world. The next kid ( " c student " ) that comes along isn't going to face the same situation because she has changed it. Contrast this to the idea that has been pushed by the steps. That she should merely look for her own part. Say she stayed up screwing her boyfriend and didn't study. If she's going to meetings, I'm going to give her " sobriety " . In AA, she'll have to see that the only reason this asshole came onto her is because she brought it on herself. She is " powerless, " she doesn't " tell. " SO THE STATUS QUO IS PRESERVED. A status quo of an instructor using sexual coersion on failing students (saying I give you the " failing " status, which, really, I don't). AA halts activism. The only one in their philosophy who has to change is the individual. Make the shit OK, and you'll be OK. Right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 ahicks@... wrote: > Contrast this to the idea that has been pushed by the steps. That she > should merely look for her own part. Say she stayed up screwing her > boyfriend and didn't study. If she's going to meetings, I'm going to > give her " sobriety " . You are wrong in interpretating steppism to say one should *only* look for one's own part. The correct interpretation is that one should *also* look for one's own part. This is like a Christian saying that Hindus worship Satan, because the Hindu God Shiva dances on fire & has destructive aspects. > AA halts activism. The only one in their philosophy who has to change > is the individual. Make the shit OK, and you'll be OK. Right? Patently false in my experience. I was an activist for much of the time I was in NA, and I know many others who were also. Many of the people involved in various harm reduction activities such as needle exchanges are NA members. They just don't talk about this in meetings, because these are outside issues. One NA member might decide that the best way to help people is to support the WOD, another might decide the best way to help people is to work to end it. Arguing about this in meetings is verboten, so they don't discuss this stuff in meetings. The same is true for women's rights, gay/lesbian/bisexual/transgender rights (a big one here in SF) & a ton of other outside issues. Lots of people are very active in their respective communities - but that doesn't come into the meetings. R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 > > > Contrast this to the idea that has been pushed by the steps. That she > > should merely look for her own part. Say she stayed up screwing her > > boyfriend and didn't study. If she's going to meetings, I'm going to > > give her " sobriety " . > > You are wrong in interpretating steppism to say one should *only* > look for one's own part. Am I? I'd be interested in other people's viewpoints on this. I know some people on this list didn't get that deep into working the steps. I did. I put my whole self into it. My fourth step was about 100 pages of hand written analysis of everything I'd ever done wrong in my life. And it still wasn't enough. Your NA *must* be a very different experience than what I went through. > > The correct interpretation is that one should *also* look for > one's own part. Thanks for setting me straight. Now lets go work on the rest of those Bozos that aren't doing it this way. > > This is like a Christian saying that Hindus worship Satan, > because the Hindu God Shiva dances on fire & has destructive > aspects. > > > AA halts activism. The only one in their philosophy who has to change > > is the individual. Make the shit OK, and you'll be OK. Right? > > Patently false in my experience. I was an activist for much of the time I > > was in NA, and I know many others who were also. Many of the people > involved in various harm reduction activities such as needle exchanges > are NA members. I'm glad to hear that. It does sound very different from my experience. Usually AAs try to " raise your bottom, " no matter who it hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2001 Report Share Posted July 6, 2001 Hi, folks, I've been away for somewhat more than a week because I've been in the hospital. I am about 1000 messages behind, and meant to read them all before starting to post again. But I can't resist this one. This nineteen year old girl, who was studying at the local vocational college (the kind where you get two year associate degrees or transfer your credits and go on to graduate from a four year college course) was a solid C student. Why anyone should assume from the outline of the story I wrote that she was an F student is totally beyond me. At that time she was very obviously drug and alcohol free, and quite obviously frightened and intimidated. I am not talking about some random stranger who dropped into a meeting, I'm talking about a person who regularly attended a meeting that I attended. She was very uneducated about the kind of behavior she had just encountered, and didn't know where to go or what to do. The vocational college has no Women's Student Services, though I imagine there were a dean or two she could have gone to for help. Are you saying the part she played in this scenario was igorance? How much do you think each of us has to know in order not to be guilty of this character flaw? Tell me this -- how many feet of material would you need to make a round crocheted rug six feet in diameter, each row of which was one inch wide? I bet you don't know th answer. Is that a character f;aw? You've totally overlooked the other examples I brought up, namely, what if she were retarded, in a coma, or senile? Are these people supposed to examine their part in their rape? Is a person with an IQ of 60 supposed to realize that it was her just desserts to be raped because she is stupid? Is the person with senile dementia supposed to be able to examine her part in the rape even though she probably does not have the mental capacity to do so? And the person in the coma? Her bad luck to have been a passenger in the car that was hit when the louse who hit her ran a stop light? Her choice to be in the car? Certainly. Her choice to be hit? Certainly not. Any way she could have avoided this? Yes -- clairvoyance. So when she wakes up she can rue the character flaw that withheld psychic prediction from her. What you say is patently absurd. I am so tired of the black and white thinkers, who don't seem to realize that the brain is a physical organ, and that there is no divide between " choice " and " disease. " Look back at 's post, the one that Pete just quoted. That's the way things work, folks. Have you ever been in shock? Were you rational then? We can put things in our mouths, up our noses or into our veins that influence our judgment for the worse, but other circumstances that we have little or no control over can do the same. > > > > > THANK YOU! for writing this. This issue pisses me off! A good 15% of > > rape cases are deemed " unfounded " because the woman had been drinking. > > Apparently that means that rape didn't occur. Bullshit. > > > > > > In schools, universities and religious institutions people often are > > > pretty clear about what their rights are. I don't mean to say that > > > people in positions of authority don't take advantage of their > > > authority to get away with these kinds of acts, or make their > > victims > > > think it's okay to do what they're doing. But in those institutions > > > there is a clear line of authority over abusers to which a victim > > can > > > appeal, and I don't think there are many people who aren't aware of > > > that nowadays. In AA there is no authority to which to appeal, > > " each > > > group is autonomous, " and victims are made to examine what they > > > contributed to the situation. > > > > > This happens ALL the time. It doesn't matter if they were drunk or > > not, in all actuality. If you were/are the victim of *anything* then > > you had " a part to play. " Fuck that. Yes. I fucking well am pissed > > off about it (to ROB). > > > > > > I can't speak about being a victim of *anything* - too general. > > I *think* this is a response to the thread about the woman > who came into a meeting saying some professor had > offerred to give her an " A " if she slept with him, and > would give her an " F " if she didn't. The people in the > meeting all told her she was powerless .... > > First of all, in SFNA, commenting directly or giving advice > would be crosstalk, and so disallowed. BUT ... > > A question that comes to mind is ... > (I'm channeling AA-think here ...) > > Is she saying that she earned an A with her hard work, > but the professor's going to flunk her anyway if she > doesn't fuck him? > > Or is she saying that she was too high or drunk > to make her classes or study and so fully earned > the F, and this professor's offering her a chance > to become (literally) a grade-whore if she really > thinks she has to have that A. > > Since she's sharing about this in some AA or NA meeting, > and not in Women Student Services, my guess would be > that she earned the F. > > This professor should be gotten rid of. > He's definitely a kind of opportunistic predator. > > But this particular girl just might not be the one to do it. > The best thing for *her* is probably just to take the F > she earned, and the lesson that comes with it, and do > better next time. It's probably better *for her* to focus > on her own part, not on how she was (almost) victimized. > > There's way more *power* for her in seeing her own > part than in focusing on how bad this man is. > > R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 6, 2001 Report Share Posted July 6, 2001 Hi Kayleighs! I hope you are feeling better. I've been fighting the good fight on this one. > Hi, folks, I've been away for somewhat more than a week because I've > been in the hospital. I am about 1000 messages behind, and meant to > read them all before starting to post again. But I can't resist this > one. > > This nineteen year old girl, who was studying at the local vocational > college (the kind where you get two year associate degrees or transfer > your credits and go on to graduate from a four year college course) > was a solid C student. Why anyone should assume from the outline of > the story I wrote that she was an F student is totally beyond me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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