Guest guest Posted June 24, 2001 Report Share Posted June 24, 2001 -Mike, your really starting to look like a wuss. Sick people are using AA to benefit themselves in many different ways.(power, money, sex, etc.) If AA was not around, I'm sure they would find other ways to do so. But, with AA and the 12-steps it's so much easier---it feeds and grows, so now all the 'gods' have to do is pick the ripe ones. Mobs - oh yes, we need them to protect our loved ones. Have a daughter, mother or grandma? And YOU sent them to a AA meeting with a 'guru' lurking in the corner! Worse yet--a team of em. Mob-mentality? Where are you coming from......I smell pig sh*t. caenemy -- In 12-step-free@y..., " Mike " <mikdan7@h...> wrote: > It just seems like someone is suggesting that AA is a racket, that none > of the crap you described would happen unless AA was in the picture. Maybe > I am being overly defensive of AA-I just sometimes take the devil's > advocate position in the interest of preventing a mob-mentality effect from > running away with the discussion. Mike. > AA lunacy > > > > Mike, nothing,s wrong with people helping people. My husband hired > > alot of young alkies and druggies. Our house crawled with these > > young people. It was beautiful watching young teens/adults grow- up > > and start to become responsible. But, a few bad eggs in the bunch > > can hurt alot of people. He had problems with some of these guys > > (yes he hired girls too, they mostly painted and didn't cause too > > many problems on the work site.) Once he took a 4X4 to the back- side > > of a guy he caught stealing. They know up front that's not allowed-- > > or shit will hit the fan and no more working on any of his sites. > > The problem isn't with the workers --besides the obvious. It's with a > > few of the other older AA'ers that hire these newcomers--encourage > > scheming to rip-off the customer, and then they use and abuse the > > workers. Don't have very many details about what happens to the > > worker (newer AA member) cause they are either dead or gone-left town > > and no one seems to know much. The last guy I remember seeing stated > > that he couldn't go to that meeting anymore or be around the guy who > > had hired him--stated I can't stand watching how he treats his kids. > > Never show him again. Most just up and leave without a word. Have > > talked with some contractors that have had limited exposure to a > > couple of these individuals. A few strange stories. One that really > > gets to me is within three days on a particular job--this guy (a > > elder in our AA group)had talked this elderly woman into putting him > > in her will. You hear enough of this kind of stuff--you know > > something is off. If I could find a couple of the missing guys--- > > these links should show something . More proof and more witnesses. > > Background checks on one is fishy---also shows many debts to both > > customers and businesses. Need $$ to do more research---in the > > future as I get my $$'s straightened out, that's exactly what I plan > > to do. Some AA elders are very, very sick--they are hurting people > > and getting away with it. That pisses me off. It also makes a bad > > name for those who are truly trying to help and for all self- > > employed construction workers. And that's what is wrong--sorry I > > didn't explain myself better. caenemy > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2001 Report Share Posted June 24, 2001 Mike, I've thought for a while that you are an XA apologist -- now I KNOW you are. What was your purpose in joining this list? Are you just here to troll and insult people who, as stated on the home page, are here to question and criticise XA without being attacked or accused of having " character defects " ?? ~Rita > If someone is so gullible and wishy-washy that they let any manipulator who > approaches them the right way control them, then they have a whole lot of > basic personality problems to begin with-and to blame an entire organization > which has been around for a long time and has helped a lot more people than > YOU probably ever helped is a crock of shit. I would take advice from AA or > NA any friggin day, before I would choose your advice. You wanna close AA > down because you don't like it, go for it. Mike. > Re: AA lunacy > > > > -Mike, your really starting to look like a wuss. Sick people are > > using AA to benefit themselves in many different ways.(power, money, > > sex, etc.) If AA was not > > around, I'm sure they would find other ways to do so. But, with AA > > and the 12-steps it's so much easier---it feeds and grows, so now all > > the 'gods' have to do is pick the ripe ones. Mobs - oh yes, we > > need them to protect our loved ones. Have a daughter, mother or > > grandma? And YOU sent them to a AA meeting with a 'guru' lurking in > > the corner! Worse yet--a team of em. Mob-mentality? Where are > > you coming from......I smell pig sh*t. > > caenemy > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2001 Report Share Posted June 24, 2001 Mike wrote: > I have plenty of critical viewpoints towards NA(I didn't go to AA) One of > them is their insistence that if I drink two beers two times in the course > of a summer, I have not been 'clean' all summer. In my experience, four > beers over a three month period of time is insignificant usage. > I just get irked when I see people portraying ANYONE or ANYTHING falsely. > I attended about one hundred NA meetings, and I never had any of the > problems people here WHINE about. If some asshole came up to me and says he > wanted to be my sponsor for my own good, and I needed to do what he > suggested, or I would be in institutions, death, etc, I would fucking laugh > at him and ignore him after that. I cannot believe whiners wasting probably > hours typing up indictments against an organization, implying that the > organization is guilty of all kinds of crimes, including sexual and economic > exploitation of innocent " High Functioning Dionysians " LOL with the help and > blessing of the government. I just cannot stand by and listen to whiners and > liars without speaking up for what I see as the truth, or at least the > voice of reasonableness. Mike. Mike, If you see the people here as " whiners and liars, " do yourself and us a favor and take a fucking hike. Ken Ragge listowner > > Re: AA lunacy > > > > > > > > > > -Mike, your really starting to look like a wuss. Sick people are > > > > using AA to benefit themselves in many different ways.(power, money, > > > > sex, etc.) If AA was not > > > > around, I'm sure they would find other ways to do so. But, with AA > > > > and the 12-steps it's so much easier---it feeds and grows, so now all > > > > the 'gods' have to do is pick the ripe ones. Mobs - oh yes, we > > > > need them to protect our loved ones. Have a daughter, mother or > > > > grandma? And YOU sent them to a AA meeting with a 'guru' lurking in > > > > the corner! Worse yet--a team of em. Mob-mentality? Where are > > > > you coming from......I smell pig sh*t. > > > > caenemy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2001 Report Share Posted June 24, 2001 So basically you only went to a few meetings, didn't get active, didn't get a sponsor, didn't work the steps, and had a few beers now and then? And your big gripe, presumably your whole reason for being on this list, is that they wouldn't give you your 90-day chip because of your beer-drinking? And now you want to defend NA on the grounds that anyone should be able to ignore everything they say just like you did? Just curious... --wally Re: AA lunacy > > > > > > Mike, I've thought for a while that you are an XA apologist -- now I > KNOW you are. What was your purpose in joining this list? Are you just > here to troll and insult people who, as stated on the home page, are here to > question and criticise XA without being attacked or accused of having > " character defects " ?? > > > > ~Rita > > > > [snip] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2001 Report Share Posted June 24, 2001 It just seems like someone is suggesting that AA is a racket, that none of the crap you described would happen unless AA was in the picture. Maybe I am being overly defensive of AA-I just sometimes take the devil's advocate position in the interest of preventing a mob-mentality effect from running away with the discussion. Mike. AA lunacy > Mike, nothing,s wrong with people helping people. My husband hired > alot of young alkies and druggies. Our house crawled with these > young people. It was beautiful watching young teens/adults grow-up > and start to become responsible. But, a few bad eggs in the bunch > can hurt alot of people. He had problems with some of these guys > (yes he hired girls too, they mostly painted and didn't cause too > many problems on the work site.) Once he took a 4X4 to the back-side > of a guy he caught stealing. They know up front that's not allowed-- > or shit will hit the fan and no more working on any of his sites. > The problem isn't with the workers --besides the obvious. It's with a > few of the other older AA'ers that hire these newcomers--encourage > scheming to rip-off the customer, and then they use and abuse the > workers. Don't have very many details about what happens to the > worker (newer AA member) cause they are either dead or gone-left town > and no one seems to know much. The last guy I remember seeing stated > that he couldn't go to that meeting anymore or be around the guy who > had hired him--stated I can't stand watching how he treats his kids. > Never show him again. Most just up and leave without a word. Have > talked with some contractors that have had limited exposure to a > couple of these individuals. A few strange stories. One that really > gets to me is within three days on a particular job--this guy (a > elder in our AA group)had talked this elderly woman into putting him > in her will. You hear enough of this kind of stuff--you know > something is off. If I could find a couple of the missing guys--- > these links should show something . More proof and more witnesses. > Background checks on one is fishy---also shows many debts to both > customers and businesses. Need $$ to do more research---in the > future as I get my $$'s straightened out, that's exactly what I plan > to do. Some AA elders are very, very sick--they are hurting people > and getting away with it. That pisses me off. It also makes a bad > name for those who are truly trying to help and for all self- > employed construction workers. And that's what is wrong--sorry I > didn't explain myself better. caenemy > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2001 Report Share Posted June 24, 2001 - Mike, Sorry for my name calling, that was very childish and inappropriate on my part. Will you please forgive me. caenemy -- In 12-step-free@y..., " Mike " <mikdan7@h...> wrote: > To Ken. I didn't say that I see everyone here as whiners and liars, but I do > see some whiners and liars here. When someone disagrees or contradicts them, > they respond with namecalling and insults.I don't think you will find one > instance of me making a deliberate insult toward someone else, at least not > without being insulted first-and even then I don't think so. In the last > two days there has been at least one person introducing themself to me by > calling me names-then you turn around and say I am the one starting trouble. > If you wish, feel free to remove me from your list. Have a nice day. Mike. > Re: AA lunacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Mike, your really starting to look like a wuss. Sick people > are > > > > > > using AA to benefit themselves in many different ways. (power, > money, > > > > > > sex, etc.) If AA was not > > > > > > around, I'm sure they would find other ways to do so. But, with > AA > > > > > > and the 12-steps it's so much easier---it feeds and grows, so now > all > > > > > > the 'gods' have to do is pick the ripe ones. Mobs - oh yes, we > > > > > > need them to protect our loved ones. Have a daughter, mother or > > > > > > grandma? And YOU sent them to a AA meeting with a 'guru' lurking > in > > > > > > the corner! Worse yet--a team of em. Mob-mentality? Where are > > > > > > you coming from......I smell pig sh*t. > > > > > > caenemy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2001 Report Share Posted June 24, 2001 --Mike ---sincerely - I shouldn't have stooped to name-calling and insults. Our experiences in AA are quite different and I'm glad you didn't get hooked-up with a guru. We do have two things in comman--- AA meetings and our past drug use/additions. Truce and start over??? netty - In 12-step-free@y..., " Mike " <mikdan7@h...> wrote: > I went to meetings every day . I don't know what you mean by 'get active'. > I did not get a sponsor(I was clean for only 60 days, from an everyday five > years heroin addiction. I did not work any steps or buy any books. I drank > coffee and donated a dollar and listened to people and saw examples of > the fact that people can use drugs for years, sometimes almost their > entire lives, and still stop. I didn't like some of their crap, but I > didn't see anyone preying on anyone, ever. Maybe I didn't look close > enough-maybe I just minded my own business-maybe it wasn't happening. I > know it wasn't happening to the extent that some bashers on this list > claim it does. Mike. > Re: AA lunacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, I've thought for a while that you are an XA apologist -- > now > > I > > > KNOW you are. What was your purpose in joining this list? Are you just > > > here to troll and insult people who, as stated on the home page, are > here > > to > > > question and criticise XA without being attacked or accused of having > > > " character defects " ?? > > > > > > > > ~Rita > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2001 Report Share Posted June 24, 2001 Mike wrote: > To Ken. I didn't say that I see everyone here as whiners and liars, but I do > see some whiners and liars here. When someone disagrees or contradicts them, > they respond with namecalling and insults.I don't think you will find one > instance of me making a deliberate insult toward someone else, at least not > without being insulted first-and even then I don't think so. In the last > two days there has been at least one person introducing themself to me by > calling me names-then you turn around and say I am the one starting trouble. > If you wish, feel free to remove me from your list. Have a nice day. Mike. Mike, You don't like arguing semantics. Reread what you wrote. Close enough. Ken Ragge listowner > > Re: AA lunacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Mike, your really starting to look like a wuss. Sick people > are > > > > > > using AA to benefit themselves in many different ways.(power, > money, > > > > > > sex, etc.) If AA was not > > > > > > around, I'm sure they would find other ways to do so. But, with > AA > > > > > > and the 12-steps it's so much easier---it feeds and grows, so now > all > > > > > > the 'gods' have to do is pick the ripe ones. Mobs - oh yes, we > > > > > > need them to protect our loved ones. Have a daughter, mother or > > > > > > grandma? And YOU sent them to a AA meeting with a 'guru' lurking > in > > > > > > the corner! Worse yet--a team of em. Mob-mentality? Where are > > > > > > you coming from......I smell pig sh*t. > > > > > > caenemy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 If someone is so gullible and wishy-washy that they let any manipulator who approaches them the right way control them, then they have a whole lot of basic personality problems to begin with-and to blame an entire organization which has been around for a long time and has helped a lot more people than YOU probably ever helped is a crock of shit. I would take advice from AA or NA any friggin day, before I would choose your advice. You wanna close AA down because you don't like it, go for it. Mike. AA lunacy > > > > > > > Mike, nothing,s wrong with people helping people. My husband hired > > > alot of young alkies and druggies. Our house crawled with these > > > young people. It was beautiful watching young teens/adults grow- > up > > > and start to become responsible. But, a few bad eggs in the > bunch > > > can hurt alot of people. He had problems with some of these guys > > > (yes he hired girls too, they mostly painted and didn't cause too > > > many problems on the work site.) Once he took a 4X4 to the back- > side > > > of a guy he caught stealing. They know up front that's not > allowed-- > > > or shit will hit the fan and no more working on any of his sites. > > > The problem isn't with the workers --besides the obvious. It's > with a > > > few of the other older AA'ers that hire these newcomers--encourage > > > scheming to rip-off the customer, and then they use and abuse the > > > workers. Don't have very many details about what happens to the > > > worker (newer AA member) cause they are either dead or gone-left > town > > > and no one seems to know much. The last guy I remember seeing > stated > > > that he couldn't go to that meeting anymore or be around the guy > who > > > had hired him--stated I can't stand watching how he treats his > kids. > > > Never show him again. Most just up and leave without a word. Have > > > talked with some contractors that have had limited exposure to a > > > couple of these individuals. A few strange stories. One that > really > > > gets to me is within three days on a particular job--this guy (a > > > elder in our AA group)had talked this elderly woman into putting > him > > > in her will. You hear enough of this kind of stuff--you know > > > something is off. If I could find a couple of the missing guys--- > > > these links should show something . More proof and more witnesses. > > > Background checks on one is fishy---also shows many debts to both > > > customers and businesses. Need $$ to do more research---in the > > > future as I get my $$'s straightened out, that's exactly what I > plan > > > to do. Some AA elders are very, very sick--they are hurting > people > > > and getting away with it. That pisses me off. It also makes a > bad > > > name for those who are truly trying to help and for all self- > > > employed construction workers. And that's what is wrong--sorry I > > > didn't explain myself better. caenemy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 I have plenty of critical viewpoints towards NA(I didn't go to AA) One of them is their insistence that if I drink two beers two times in the course of a summer, I have not been 'clean' all summer. In my experience, four beers over a three month period of time is insignificant usage. I just get irked when I see people portraying ANYONE or ANYTHING falsely. I attended about one hundred NA meetings, and I never had any of the problems people here WHINE about. If some asshole came up to me and says he wanted to be my sponsor for my own good, and I needed to do what he suggested, or I would be in institutions, death, etc, I would fucking laugh at him and ignore him after that. I cannot believe whiners wasting probably hours typing up indictments against an organization, implying that the organization is guilty of all kinds of crimes, including sexual and economic exploitation of innocent " High Functioning Dionysians " LOL with the help and blessing of the government. I just cannot stand by and listen to whiners and liars without speaking up for what I see as the truth, or at least the voice of reasonableness. Mike. Re: AA lunacy > > > > > > > -Mike, your really starting to look like a wuss. Sick people are > > > using AA to benefit themselves in many different ways.(power, money, > > > sex, etc.) If AA was not > > > around, I'm sure they would find other ways to do so. But, with AA > > > and the 12-steps it's so much easier---it feeds and grows, so now all > > > the 'gods' have to do is pick the ripe ones. Mobs - oh yes, we > > > need them to protect our loved ones. Have a daughter, mother or > > > grandma? And YOU sent them to a AA meeting with a 'guru' lurking in > > > the corner! Worse yet--a team of em. Mob-mentality? Where are > > > you coming from......I smell pig sh*t. > > > caenemy > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 If you went to meetings for 100 days straight there is a good chance that the stuff people report here didn't happen in that 100 days (about three months and change). The horror stories that people report aren't daily occurrences. It is enough to know that someone was once raped, one child was once abused. How about this one: a girl came in once and said her teacher at school said she could get an A if she slept with him an would get an F if she refused. Two dozen people said she was powerless before my turn, whereupon I informed her of the agencies in town that I knew of that could help her. What would you have commented if that had happened in one of your meetings? > I went to meetings every day . I don't know what you mean by 'get active'. > I did not get a sponsor(I was clean for only 60 days, from an everyday five > years heroin addiction. I did not work any steps or buy any books. I drank > coffee and donated a dollar and listened to people and saw examples of > the fact that people can use drugs for years, sometimes almost their > entire lives, and still stop. I didn't like some of their crap, but I > didn't see anyone preying on anyone, ever. Maybe I didn't look close > enough-maybe I just minded my own business-maybe it wasn't happening. I > know it wasn't happening to the extent that some bashers on this list > claim it does. Mike. > Re: AA lunacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, I've thought for a while that you are an XA apologist -- > now > > I > > > KNOW you are. What was your purpose in joining this list? Are you just > > > here to troll and insult people who, as stated on the home page, are > here > > to > > > question and criticise XA without being attacked or accused of having > > > " character defects " ?? > > > > > > > > ~Rita > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 I honestly think you have simply not been to enough meetings to have seen this kind of thing happen. As I said, it's not a daily occurrence. > > > I went to meetings every day . I don't know what you mean by 'get > > active'. > > > I did not get a sponsor(I was clean for only 60 days, from an > > everyday five > > > years heroin addiction. I did not work any steps or buy any books. I > > drank > > > coffee and donated a dollar and listened to people and saw > > examples of > > > the fact that people can use drugs for years, sometimes almost > > their > > > entire lives, and still stop. I didn't like some of their crap, but > > I > > > didn't see anyone preying on anyone, ever. Maybe I didn't look close > > > enough-maybe I just minded my own business-maybe it wasn't > > happening. I > > > know it wasn't happening to the extent that some bashers on this > > list > > > claim it does. Mike. > > > Re: AA lunacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, I've thought for a while that you are an XA > > apologist -- > > > now > > > > I > > > > > KNOW you are. What was your purpose in joining this list? Are > > you just > > > > > here to troll and insult people who, as stated on the home page, > > are > > > here > > > > to > > > > > question and criticise XA without being attacked or accused of > > having > > > > > " character defects " ?? > > > > > > > > > > > > ~Rita > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 > >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: <12-step-free > >Subject: Re: Re: AA lunacy >Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:05:12 -0400 > >I would have told her she could take any of several different course of >action against this extortionist-teacher. If anyone I repeat any one in a >meeting I ever was at said something so idiotic as to tell someone they >were >powerless against someone attempting to exploit them, they would never be >listened to seriously again. I don't know what kind or where these >meetings >you attended are, but I would not 'keep coming back' if the prevailing >advice and suggestion to a person in a situation as you described was >that >they are powerless. To be honest, I find it hard to believe. Mike. >----- Original Message ----- -----> I agree, I can maybe picture one person sick enough to say such a thing, but not several. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 I went for years to weekly meetings and although I'm not saying it didnt happen at your meeting as I wasnt there - I never experienced anything like this. >From: kayleighs@... >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: AA lunacy >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:23:21 -0000 > >I honestly think you have simply not been to enough meetings to have >seen this kind of thing happen. As I said, it's not a daily >occurrence. > > > > > > I went to meetings every day . I don't know what you mean by >'get > > > active'. > > > > I did not get a sponsor(I was clean for only 60 days, from an > > > everyday five > > > > years heroin addiction. I did not work any steps or buy any >books. I > > > drank > > > > coffee and donated a dollar and listened to people and saw > > > examples of > > > > the fact that people can use drugs for years, sometimes almost > > > their > > > > entire lives, and still stop. I didn't like some of their crap, >but > > > I > > > > didn't see anyone preying on anyone, ever. Maybe I didn't look >close > > > > enough-maybe I just minded my own business-maybe it wasn't > > > happening. I > > > > know it wasn't happening to the extent that some bashers on >this > > > list > > > > claim it does. Mike. > > > > Re: AA lunacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, I've thought for a while that you are an XA > > > apologist -- > > > > now > > > > > I > > > > > > KNOW you are. What was your purpose in joining this list? >Are > > > you just > > > > > > here to troll and insult people who, as stated on the home >page, > > > are > > > > here > > > > > to > > > > > > question and criticise XA without being attacked or accused >of > > > having > > > > > > " character defects " ?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~Rita > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 See - this was my initial posting. I think it speaks clearly for itself. > >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: Re: AA lunacy >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:47:54 -0000 > >I went for years to weekly meetings and although I'm not saying it didnt >happen at your meeting as I wasnt there - I never experienced anything like >this. > > > >From: kayleighs@... > >Reply-To: 12-step-free > >To: 12-step-free > >Subject: Re: AA lunacy > >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:23:21 -0000 > > > >I honestly think you have simply not been to enough meetings to have > >seen this kind of thing happen. As I said, it's not a daily > >occurrence. > > > > > > > > > I went to meetings every day . I don't know what you mean by > >'get > > > > active'. > > > > > I did not get a sponsor(I was clean for only 60 days, from an > > > > everyday five > > > > > years heroin addiction. I did not work any steps or buy any > >books. I > > > > drank > > > > > coffee and donated a dollar and listened to people and saw > > > > examples of > > > > > the fact that people can use drugs for years, sometimes almost > > > > their > > > > > entire lives, and still stop. I didn't like some of their crap, > >but > > > > I > > > > > didn't see anyone preying on anyone, ever. Maybe I didn't look > >close > > > > > enough-maybe I just minded my own business-maybe it wasn't > > > > happening. I > > > > > know it wasn't happening to the extent that some bashers on > >this > > > > list > > > > > claim it does. Mike. > > > > > Re: AA lunacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, I've thought for a while that you are an XA > > > > apologist -- > > > > > now > > > > > > I > > > > > > > KNOW you are. What was your purpose in joining this list? > >Are > > > > you just > > > > > > > here to troll and insult people who, as stated on the home > >page, > > > > are > > > > > here > > > > > > to > > > > > > > question and criticise XA without being attacked or accused > >of > > > > having > > > > > > > " character defects " ?? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~Rita > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 To Ken. I didn't say that I see everyone here as whiners and liars, but I do see some whiners and liars here. When someone disagrees or contradicts them, they respond with namecalling and insults.I don't think you will find one instance of me making a deliberate insult toward someone else, at least not without being insulted first-and even then I don't think so. In the last two days there has been at least one person introducing themself to me by calling me names-then you turn around and say I am the one starting trouble. If you wish, feel free to remove me from your list. Have a nice day. Mike. Re: AA lunacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Mike, your really starting to look like a wuss. Sick people are > > > > > using AA to benefit themselves in many different ways.(power, money, > > > > > sex, etc.) If AA was not > > > > > around, I'm sure they would find other ways to do so. But, with AA > > > > > and the 12-steps it's so much easier---it feeds and grows, so now all > > > > > the 'gods' have to do is pick the ripe ones. Mobs - oh yes, we > > > > > need them to protect our loved ones. Have a daughter, mother or > > > > > grandma? And YOU sent them to a AA meeting with a 'guru' lurking in > > > > > the corner! Worse yet--a team of em. Mob-mentality? Where are > > > > > you coming from......I smell pig sh*t. > > > > > caenemy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 Please -- if this is directed at me, I have already explained why I said what I did and asked you to accept my apology. You didn't get that upset about what other people have said about your son, and I'm wondering why you're getting so upset at me. Can someone else please help me out here? > See - this was my initial posting. I think it speaks clearly for itself. > > > > >From: " klc youlater " <castaway41@h...> > >Reply-To: 12-step-free@y... > >To: 12-step-free@y... > >Subject: Re: Re: AA lunacy > >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:47:54 -0000 > > > >I went for years to weekly meetings and although I'm not saying it didnt > >happen at your meeting as I wasnt there - I never experienced anything like > >this. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 I went to meetings every day . I don't know what you mean by 'get active'. I did not get a sponsor(I was clean for only 60 days, from an everyday five years heroin addiction. I did not work any steps or buy any books. I drank coffee and donated a dollar and listened to people and saw examples of the fact that people can use drugs for years, sometimes almost their entire lives, and still stop. I didn't like some of their crap, but I didn't see anyone preying on anyone, ever. Maybe I didn't look close enough-maybe I just minded my own business-maybe it wasn't happening. I know it wasn't happening to the extent that some bashers on this list claim it does. Mike. Re: AA lunacy > > > > > > > > > > Mike, I've thought for a while that you are an XA apologist -- now > I > > KNOW you are. What was your purpose in joining this list? Are you just > > here to troll and insult people who, as stated on the home page, are here > to > > question and criticise XA without being attacked or accused of having > > " character defects " ?? > > > > > > ~Rita > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 havent seen the post you are referring to so I am at a blank. Only responded to a post that asked if I was calling someone a liar. I'm not upset with you & not clear here at all. Think some confusion due to timing of posts. Peace, >From: kayleighs@... >Reply-To: 12-step-free >To: 12-step-free >Subject: Re: AA lunacy >Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:30:00 -0000 > >Please -- if this is directed at me, I have already explained why I >said what I did and asked you to accept my apology. You didn't get >that upset about what other people have said about your son, and I'm >wondering why you're getting so upset at me. > >Can someone else please help me out here? > > > > See - this was my initial posting. I think it speaks clearly for >itself. > > > > > > > > >From: " klc youlater " <castaway41@h...> > > >Reply-To: 12-step-free@y... > > >To: 12-step-free@y... > > >Subject: Re: Re: AA lunacy > > >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:47:54 -0000 > > > > > >I went for years to weekly meetings and although I'm not saying it >didnt > > >happen at your meeting as I wasnt there - I never experienced >anything like > > >this. > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 I think you are right, the timing is sometimes difficult. I will forget about it. > > > See - this was my initial posting. I think it speaks clearly for > >itself. > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: " klc youlater " <castaway41@h...> > > > >Reply-To: 12-step-free@y... > > > >To: 12-step-free@y... > > > >Subject: Re: Re: AA lunacy > > > >Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 23:47:54 -0000 > > > > > > > >I went for years to weekly meetings and although I'm not saying it > >didnt > > > >happen at your meeting as I wasnt there - I never experienced > >anything like > > > >this. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 I have to say the thumbnail description of this event doesn't jibe with my experience of the program at all. I spent more than 10 years in program & went to more meetings than I can count. I'm not calling anyone a liar, though. There are so many different flavors of the groups that anything's possible. klc youlater wrote: > I went for years to weekly meetings and although I'm not saying it didnt > happen at your meeting as I wasnt there - I never experienced anything like > this. > > > > > > > > > > > If you went to meetings for 100 days straight there is a good > >chance > > > > that the stuff people report here didn't happen in that 100 days > > > > (about three months and change). The horror stories that people > > > > report aren't daily occurrences. It is enough to know that > >someone > > > > was once raped, one child was once abused. " It is enough to know that someone was once raped, one child was once abused. " WTF? So every human institution in which someone was once raped or a child was once abused is inherently evil? Name one human institution that's immune from this sort of corruption. I guess orphanages have to go, as do schools, universities, religious institutions. Pretty much every human institution in which people have physical contact has had somebody raped or abused at some point. Probably e-mail lists are safe, as long as nobody actually meets in the flesh. Unless we're counting written/verbal abuse. > How about this one: a > > > > girl came in once and said her teacher at school said she could > >get an > > > > A if she slept with him an would get an F if she refused. Two > >dozen > > > > people said she was powerless before my turn, whereupon I informed > >her > > > > of the agencies in town that I knew of that could help her. What > > > > would you have commented if that had happened in one of your > >meetings? > > > > *This* sort of comment would jibe with my experience of the program: " You have a choice. You can comply with the teacher & possibly get an A. You can report the teacher to certain authorities - this may stop the teacher from acting that way, but you may also make more trouble for yourself by doing that. You can possibly get help from this agency or that agency. The truth is that whatever action you take the outcome is uncertain. You do not have complete control of this situation. Take the best action you see, turn the results over. Once you've done the footwork you are powerless over the outcome, so there is no point in letting this man disturb your mind while you are waiting for events to take their course. Don't let worrying about the outcome cause you to do (X). That would only make things worse for you than they already are. " That could easily be condensed to " you are powerless " by someone who wants to shade the truth in a certain way, or is predisposed to seeing the truth a certain way. I am so glad that this sage advice you gave about those wonderful agencies in town saved this girl from her fate, though. Those weren't by any chance agencies where people have actual physical contact, were they? R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 ok. Re: AA lunacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, I've thought for a while that you are an XA > apologist -- > > now > > > I > > > > KNOW you are. What was your purpose in joining this list? Are > you just > > > > here to troll and insult people who, as stated on the home > page, are > > here > > > to > > > > question and criticise XA without being attacked or accused of > having > > > > " character defects " ?? > > > > > > > > > > ~Rita > > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 25, 2001 Report Share Posted June 25, 2001 At 11:23 PM 6/25/01 -0000, kayleighs@... wrote: >I honestly think you have simply not been to enough meetings to have >seen this kind of thing happen. As I said, it's not a daily >occurrence. I disagree that many of the things we've discussed aren't that common. I saw verbal abuse at almost every AA meeting I attended. I didn't quite recognize it as such in my first several months, or even first year or two - it was easy to 'forgive' the transgressions made on me or that I saw made on others, since I 'needed' to attend meetings and work the program (which meant concentrating on my own defects, 'taking my own inventory', and NOT looking at what others were doing) to stay sober and stay alive. But later when I looked back there was a lot that went on that was not 'kosher', and I saw things continuing to happen for as long as I was more than three minutes early for a meeting, and stayed more than three minutes after the meeting. All I saw DURING meetings was old-timers saying how grateful they were for (among other things) their sponsors' help. When they told exactly what their sponsors did for them, it sounded more like abuse than help. There was a lot of double-talk and 'newspeak; in meetings, but the really 'interesting' things happened outside of meetings. > >> > > I went to meetings every day . I don't know what you mean by >'get >> > active'. >> > > I did not get a sponsor(I was clean for only 60 days, from an >> > everyday five >> > > years heroin addiction. I did not work any steps or buy any >books. I >> > drank >> > > coffee and donated a dollar and listened to people and saw >> > examples of >> > > the fact that people can use drugs for years, sometimes almost >> > their >> > > entire lives, and still stop. I didn't like some of their crap, >but >> > I >> > > didn't see anyone preying on anyone, ever. Maybe I didn't look >close >> > > enough-maybe I just minded my own business-maybe it wasn't >> > happening. You definitely did not 'get active', and for someone of your (low) level of participation, I'm surprised you put anything in the basket. Working [or 'taking] the steps, reading the literature, chairing meetings and being discussion leader, arriving early to set up tables and charis and make coffee - these are things that most people do during their first couple of years' 12-step involvement. IF they haven't done these things, their sponsor (if they have one) gives them stern lectures about how they NEED to do these thing to stay sober and how the group NEEDS these things to be done, or they fire them as their sponsoree, or they give them a five dollar bill and say " You haven't drank enough, there's the door, go start drinking and don't come back until you're really ready to get sober. " >I >> > > know it wasn't happening to the extent that some bashers on >this >> > list >> > > claim it does. Mike. >> > > Re: Re: AA lunacy >> > > >> > > >> > > > So basically you only went to a few meetings, didn't get >active, >> > didn't >> > > get >> > > > a sponsor, didn't work the steps, and had a few beers now and >> > then? And >> > > your >> > > > big gripe, presumably your whole reason for being on this >list, is >> > that >> > > they >> > > > wouldn't give you your 90-day chip because of your >beer-drinking? Most people on this list can point to the Four Absolutes of the Oxford Group/MRA as the source of NA's " absolute purity " requirement. But Mike, you still didn't answer that question. Is the beer thing what brought you here? Why are you here? >> > AA) One >> > > of >> > > > > them is their insistence that if I drink two beers two times >in >> > the >> > > course >> > > > > of a summer, I have not been 'clean' all summer. In my >> > experience, four >> > > > > beers over a three month period of time is insignificant >usage. Your experience isn't " The NA Experience " . They've 'got more experience' than you, and will tell you to listen to them. They won't listen to you. ---------- http://listen.to/benbradley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 Different meetings do indeed have different flavors. That flavor is probably pretty uniform in small towns, and pretty uniform in places where the majority of AA members have gone to a particular treatment program. New York and San Francisco are probably more sophisticated than Ames, IA. My problem is with rape and child molestation within AA is that the very philosophy of the program prevents people from taking the steps they should to right the wrong. " Powerless...accept the things I cannot change [namely, things that have already happened]...everything in God's world is exactly as it should be...your best thinking got you here.... " See what I mean? I have heard a woman say it was her fault she was raped because she was drunk at the time. Gosh, didn't the guy have something to do with it? Would it have been better if she had been retarded, senile or in a coma? In schools, universities and religious institutions people often are pretty clear about what their rights are. I don't mean to say that people in positions of authority don't take advantage of their authority to get away with these kinds of acts, or make their victims think it's okay to do what they're doing. But in those institutions there is a clear line of authority over abusers to which a victim can appeal, and I don't think there are many people who aren't aware of that nowadays. In AA there is no authority to which to appeal, " each group is autonomous, " and victims are made to examine what they contributed to the situation. The anonymity principle keeps lots of people from reporting what they otherwise would have reported. They think this amounts to some sort of statutory confidentiality requirement, though it doesn't. Respecting anonymity is a totally voluntary behavior, and there is no binding force in it at all. People don't know this, particularly people who've been through treatment and are aware of the confidentiality requirements imposed on the staff. People are also taught not to think, to do everything their sponsors ask them to do, to greet every eventuality with " At least s/he didn't drink. " There was a guy here in town who was aghast when he was arrested after he had confessed to a murder when he was giving a presentation on alcoholism as an admitted AA member. In the newspaper they quoted him as saying, " What about anonymity? " Not very bright, I admit, but nevertheless stuff he'd been led to believe. As a matter of pure chance, he simply hadn't mentioned this before. I have no clue whether what I said saved this girl from her fate (as you put it), and while sarcasm in undoubtedly an effective way to make a point, it tends to create resistance in the recipient. You have joined the list very recently, so you are not aware of the postings about the GSO in Scotland, whom the police told to notify all the groups about an abuse that was occurring and had been reported to the police, and to state that it wouldn't be tolerated. Americans have too much veneration for AA (like Ann and Abby) to realize how its nonstructure contributes to abuses, so police would never do what the Scots did. And presumably, if they did, the GSO here has enough clout to ignore it, what with celebrities of every stripe here openly saying that AA saved their lives. I think you ought to educate yourself about the extent to which the GSO can and does set AA policy, and how they hide behind the traditions when they simply don't feel like it. There's some stuff about that on the about.com alcoholism site, and links to other stuff from there, and I'm sure other members of this list can point you to other sites as well. > > I have to say the thumbnail description of this event doesn't > jibe with my experience of the program at all. I spent more > than 10 years in program & went to more meetings than I > can count. > > I'm not calling anyone a liar, though. There are so many > different flavors of the groups that anything's possible. > <snip> > " It is enough to know that someone was once raped, > one child was once abused. " WTF? > > So every human institution in which someone was once > raped or a child was once abused is inherently evil? > > Name one human institution that's immune from this sort > of corruption. I guess orphanages have to go, as do schools, > universities, religious institutions. Pretty much every > human institution in which people have physical contact has > had somebody raped or abused at some point. > > Probably e-mail lists are safe, as long as nobody actually meets > in the flesh. Unless we're counting written/verbal abuse. > <snip> > > *This* sort of comment would jibe with my experience of the program: > > " You have a choice. You can comply with the teacher & possibly get an A. > You can report the teacher to certain authorities - this may stop the > teacher > from acting that way, but you may also make more trouble for yourself by > doing that. You can possibly get help from this agency or that agency. > > The truth is that whatever action you take the outcome is uncertain. You do > not > have complete control of this situation. Take the best action you see, turn > the > results over. Once you've done the footwork you are powerless over the > outcome, > so there is no point in letting this man disturb your mind while you are > waiting for > events to take their course. Don't let worrying about the outcome cause you > to > do (X). That would only make things worse for you than they already are. " > > That could easily be condensed to " you are powerless " by someone who > wants to shade the truth in a certain way, or is predisposed to seeing the > truth a certain way. > > I am so glad that this sage advice you gave about those wonderful > agencies in town saved this girl from her fate, though. Those weren't > by any chance agencies where people have actual physical contact, > were they? > > R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2001 Report Share Posted June 26, 2001 I would have told her she could take any of several different course of action against this extortionist-teacher. If anyone I repeat any one in a meeting I ever was at said something so idiotic as to tell someone they were powerless against someone attempting to exploit them, they would never be listened to seriously again. I don't know what kind or where these meetings you attended are, but I would not 'keep coming back' if the prevailing advice and suggestion to a person in a situation as you described was that they are powerless. To be honest, I find it hard to believe. Mike. Re: AA lunacy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike, I've thought for a while that you are an XA > apologist -- > > now > > > I > > > > KNOW you are. What was your purpose in joining this list? Are > you just > > > > here to troll and insult people who, as stated on the home page, > are > > here > > > to > > > > question and criticise XA without being attacked or accused of > having > > > > " character defects " ?? > > > > > > > > > > ~Rita > > > > > > > > > > > > > [snip] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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