Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron AA lunacy)

[Guest guest]

Mona, you arent my former gf, " M " , in disguise are you? Youre

beginning to sound like her. (I'm seeing her agin btw, but w an even

more ambiguous status than before).

P.

Tenets of

humility,

> whether located in the postulates of a deracinated Jewish preacher

who hung

> eventually from a tree, or simply promoted in the more prosaic

package of

> American bourgeois mythology, is a slave value. The man or woman of

> Nietzchean pecept quickly transcends such kindergarten nostrums.

>

> --Mona--

[Guest guest]

> Ummmm....now I'm remembering how proud many steppers were of their

humility. They paraded

> their humility around, they wore their humility like a red necktie.

They showed their

> humility off like a boy scout merit badge.

>

> What a lot of competition, Humbler-than-thou...

Right you are. Just recently I was accused (by steppers of course) of

being a troll on add_med for merely *enquiring* whether a liver

transplant candidate can drink safely again afterward, let alone

expressing an opinion. When this was followed by some emetic

brown-nosing of AA shrink Floyd Garrett when he showed up there I

flipped and ripped him another asshole which he'd had coming for a

very long time. It occurred to me that that might get me in trouble

with the list God and maybe I would be told I had to apologise to him

or something - and whether I would if this happened. I then reflected

that I needn't worry about such a dilemma - there was no way that

Garrett would rob himself of the ego trip of granting a Royal Pardon

and saying he didnt need an apology. To date he has made no response,

which might be for similar reasons of inverted pride, or dare I hope

it? - some of what I said might actually have gone home. There were

some hints in his early posts that the most repellant excesses of his

exhibitionistic intellectual wanking would be curtailed in future.

Perhaps Floydy has been on the phone to his 12-step poncer and a

little a bit o' 10 & 11 are being practiced.

P.

[Guest guest]

Hey bob, folks,

Anyone seen that funny TV clip where a preacher asks a little girl

what lesson the Miracle of turning water into wine has for us, she

replies " When you run out of wine, get on your knees and pray. " ?

P.

> > > Let's all remember that AA's definitrion of " humility " is " a

desire

> > to seek

> > > and do God's will "

> > > Humility and gratitude (was: Further

Akron

> > AA

> > > lunacy)

> > >

> > >

> > > > Mike retorts, " I guess humility and thankfulness for life's

> > blessings is

> > > bad too? "

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Then you didn't work the program. Which is good--but might

explain why you don't understand how a person can become very

vulnerable and sucked in. You're still a goat--that's good.

Guru's don't waste much time on strong-willed people (goat). They go

after a goat who has turned into a sheep--someone who has had their

strength sucked out of em--who has lost hope--who has exhausted all

of their known resources. And are now weak (sheep). When you get to

that place--someone who appears to have answers--is like a spark of

hope. (remember reading about the flimsy reed) Anyway---hopefully

you never find yourself there. It's

hell.

netty

> You have me mixed up with someone else-I don't even attend NA

anymore, haven't been to a meeting in over a year and a half-and (as

I have tried to tell you before) I would no sooner do someone else's

thinking for them as do their laundry for them- and the same goes

for allowing someone else to think for me. Neither do I have any

desire for others to adopt my opinions. Mike.

> Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further

Akron AA lunacy)

>

>

> In a message dated 6/23/01 7:43:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> mikdan7@h... writes:

>

>

>

> Reading this letter it seems like you are suggesting that AA or

NA is just

> chock full of manipulative losers taking advantage of a

fellowship that is

> designed just so that these types of people can facilitate

their

> exploitations of other people. I don't know you, but this

attitude certainly

> suggests things to me about the mindset of someone who would

make these

> descriptions.

>

>

> Sadly, Mike, I am given to understand that Mr. Marshall has

killfiled you.

> His mindset most certainly is disturbing, and you. Mike, are just

exactly the

> XA to set this poor unfortunate straight. And yet, I fear that

he is not

> capable of the rigorous honesty demanded by XA stalwarts such as

yourself,

> and is, of course, therefore lost to a sober life of earning a

good living

> via a dynamic career, pursuing pleasurable hobbies, and forging

satisfying

> personal relationships -- all without the benefit of XA.

>

> Pray to god (as you understand Him, of course) for Bob, Mike.

Only a Higher

> Power could save one with a mindset such as Bob's from the sheer

misery of a

> wretched and pitiful existence, " living " a life that to all non-

XA seems so

> rewarding. But that is just their disease(s) talking...Bob is

very, very

> disturbing. Only the sickest of the sick fail to see that.

>

> God (as I understand It) bless you, Mike. <sniffle> Keep comin'

back -- It

> works if ya work it!

>

> --Mona--

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Netty, I also found this to be true for myself. I was that weak sheep. Very,

very vulnerable. It took me a L O N G time to become my own person, but that

person is part of what I learned in program, too. However, I do see people

who get sucked in & then never reach a place of thinking for themselves.

Everything becomes for them, " I'll have to talk to my sponsor. " It's sad

because I've seen mentally fragile people really trying so hard to " get it "

and thinking they arent working the program good enough.

>From: caenemy@...

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron AA

>lunacy)

>Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:13:39 -0000

>

> Then you didn't work the program. Which is good--but might

>explain why you don't understand how a person can become very

>vulnerable and sucked in. You're still a goat--that's good.

>Guru's don't waste much time on strong-willed people (goat). They go

>after a goat who has turned into a sheep--someone who has had their

>strength sucked out of em--who has lost hope--who has exhausted all

>of their known resources. And are now weak (sheep). When you get to

>that place--someone who appears to have answers--is like a spark of

>hope. (remember reading about the flimsy reed) Anyway---hopefully

>you never find yourself there. It's

>hell.

>netty

>

>

>

>

> > You have me mixed up with someone else-I don't even attend NA

>anymore, haven't been to a meeting in over a year and a half-and (as

>I have tried to tell you before) I would no sooner do someone else's

>thinking for them as do their laundry for them- and the same goes

>for allowing someone else to think for me. Neither do I have any

>desire for others to adopt my opinions. Mike.

> > Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further

>Akron AA lunacy)

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 6/23/01 7:43:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > mikdan7@h... writes:

> >

> >

> >

> > Reading this letter it seems like you are suggesting that AA or

>NA is just

> > chock full of manipulative losers taking advantage of a

>fellowship that is

> > designed just so that these types of people can facilitate

>their

> > exploitations of other people. I don't know you, but this

>attitude certainly

> > suggests things to me about the mindset of someone who would

>make these

> > descriptions.

> >

> >

> > Sadly, Mike, I am given to understand that Mr. Marshall has

>killfiled you.

> > His mindset most certainly is disturbing, and you. Mike, are just

>exactly the

> > XA to set this poor unfortunate straight. And yet, I fear that

>he is not

> > capable of the rigorous honesty demanded by XA stalwarts such as

>yourself,

> > and is, of course, therefore lost to a sober life of earning a

>good living

> > via a dynamic career, pursuing pleasurable hobbies, and forging

>satisfying

> > personal relationships -- all without the benefit of XA.

> >

> > Pray to god (as you understand Him, of course) for Bob, Mike.

>Only a Higher

> > Power could save one with a mindset such as Bob's from the sheer

>misery of a

> > wretched and pitiful existence, " living " a life that to all non-

>XA seems so

> > rewarding. But that is just their disease(s) talking...Bob is

>very, very

> > disturbing. Only the sickest of the sick fail to see that.

> >

> > God (as I understand It) bless you, Mike. <sniffle> Keep comin'

>back -- It

> > works if ya work it!

> >

> > --Mona--

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

This also reminds me of an opening passage we used to read at program

that referred something to the fact that there may be some unfortunates who

cannot grasp the program if they are incapable of being completely honest

with themselves, and I believe it mentions people with mental instability?

I cant remember it enough to quote it, but I do remember it becuase

everytime we read it, it made me feel horrible inside.

maybe someone can quote what I am referring to.

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron

>AA lunacy)

>Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:28:52 -0000

>

>Netty, I also found this to be true for myself. I was that weak sheep.

>Very,

>very vulnerable. It took me a L O N G time to become my own person, but

>that

>person is part of what I learned in program, too. However, I do see people

>who get sucked in & then never reach a place of thinking for themselves.

>Everything becomes for them, " I'll have to talk to my sponsor. " It's sad

>because I've seen mentally fragile people really trying so hard to " get it "

>and thinking they arent working the program good enough.

>

>

>

>

> >From: caenemy@...

> >Reply-To: 12-step-free

> >To: 12-step-free

> >Subject: Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron AA

> >lunacy)

> >Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:13:39 -0000

> >

> > Then you didn't work the program. Which is good--but might

> >explain why you don't understand how a person can become very

> >vulnerable and sucked in. You're still a goat--that's good.

> >Guru's don't waste much time on strong-willed people (goat). They go

> >after a goat who has turned into a sheep--someone who has had their

> >strength sucked out of em--who has lost hope--who has exhausted all

> >of their known resources. And are now weak (sheep). When you get to

> >that place--someone who appears to have answers--is like a spark of

> >hope. (remember reading about the flimsy reed) Anyway---hopefully

> >you never find yourself there. It's

> >hell.

> >netty

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > You have me mixed up with someone else-I don't even attend NA

> >anymore, haven't been to a meeting in over a year and a half-and (as

> >I have tried to tell you before) I would no sooner do someone else's

> >thinking for them as do their laundry for them- and the same goes

> >for allowing someone else to think for me. Neither do I have any

> >desire for others to adopt my opinions. Mike.

> > > Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further

> >Akron AA lunacy)

> > >

> > >

> > > In a message dated 6/23/01 7:43:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > > mikdan7@h... writes:

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Reading this letter it seems like you are suggesting that AA or

> >NA is just

> > > chock full of manipulative losers taking advantage of a

> >fellowship that is

> > > designed just so that these types of people can facilitate

> >their

> > > exploitations of other people. I don't know you, but this

> >attitude certainly

> > > suggests things to me about the mindset of someone who would

> >make these

> > > descriptions.

> > >

> > >

> > > Sadly, Mike, I am given to understand that Mr. Marshall has

> >killfiled you.

> > > His mindset most certainly is disturbing, and you. Mike, are just

> >exactly the

> > > XA to set this poor unfortunate straight. And yet, I fear that

> >he is not

> > > capable of the rigorous honesty demanded by XA stalwarts such as

> >yourself,

> > > and is, of course, therefore lost to a sober life of earning a

> >good living

> > > via a dynamic career, pursuing pleasurable hobbies, and forging

> >satisfying

> > > personal relationships -- all without the benefit of XA.

> > >

> > > Pray to god (as you understand Him, of course) for Bob, Mike.

> >Only a Higher

> > > Power could save one with a mindset such as Bob's from the sheer

> >misery of a

> > > wretched and pitiful existence, " living " a life that to all non-

> >XA seems so

> > > rewarding. But that is just their disease(s) talking...Bob is

> >very, very

> > > disturbing. Only the sickest of the sick fail to see that.

> > >

> > > God (as I understand It) bless you, Mike. <sniffle> Keep comin'

> >back -- It

> > > works if ya work it!

> > >

> > > --Mona--

> > >

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

At 01:34 AM 6/26/01 +0000, you wrote:

>This also reminds me of an opening passage we used to read at program

>that referred something to the fact that there may be some unfortunates who

>cannot grasp the program if they are incapable of being completely honest

>with themselves, and I believe it mentions people with mental instability?

>I cant remember it enough to quote it, but I do remember it becuase

>everytime we read it, it made me feel horrible inside.

Don't you just love the implication that if you don't fall in love with

The Program and credit it with miracles then you must therefore

be incapable of comprehending it?

[Guest guest]

At 01:34 AM 6/26/01 -0000, klc youlater wrote:

>This also reminds me of an opening passage we used to read at program

>that referred something to the fact that there may be some unfortunates who

>cannot grasp the program if they are incapable of being completely honest

>with themselves, and I believe it mentions people with mental instability?

>I cant remember it enough to quote it, but I do remember it becuase

>everytime we read it, it made me feel horrible inside.

This is the first page of chapter 5, " how it works " , of the big book.

The first three pages or so were read at almost every meeting.

>

>maybe someone can quote what I am referring to.

Do you really want that? If so, here's a link to chapter 5:

<http://www.recovery.org/aa/bigbook/ww/chapter_5.html>

Here's another link, but it doesn't give the big book ...

<http://www.aarecovery.com/bb.htm>

>

>

>>

>>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>>To: 12-step-free

>>Subject: Re: Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron

>>AA lunacy)

>>Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:28:52 -0000

>>

>>Netty, I also found this to be true for myself. I was that weak sheep.

>>Very,

>>very vulnerable. It took me a L O N G time to become my own person, but

>>that

>>person is part of what I learned in program, too. However, I do see people

>>who get sucked in & then never reach a place of thinking for themselves.

>>Everything becomes for them, " I'll have to talk to my sponsor. " It's sad

>>because I've seen mentally fragile people really trying so hard to " get it "

>>and thinking they arent working the program good enough.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> >From: caenemy@...

>> >Reply-To: 12-step-free

>> >To: 12-step-free

>> >Subject: Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron AA

>> >lunacy)

>> >Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 01:13:39 -0000

>> >

>> > Then you didn't work the program. Which is good--but might

>> >explain why you don't understand how a person can become very

>> >vulnerable and sucked in. You're still a goat--that's good.

>> >Guru's don't waste much time on strong-willed people (goat). They go

>> >after a goat who has turned into a sheep--someone who has had their

>> >strength sucked out of em--who has lost hope--who has exhausted all

>> >of their known resources. And are now weak (sheep). When you get to

>> >that place--someone who appears to have answers--is like a spark of

>> >hope. (remember reading about the flimsy reed) Anyway---hopefully

>> >you never find yourself there. It's

>> >hell.

>> >netty

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> >

>> > > You have me mixed up with someone else-I don't even attend NA

>> >anymore, haven't been to a meeting in over a year and a half-and (as

>> >I have tried to tell you before) I would no sooner do someone else's

>> >thinking for them as do their laundry for them- and the same goes

>> >for allowing someone else to think for me. Neither do I have any

>> >desire for others to adopt my opinions. Mike.

>> > > Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further

>> >Akron AA lunacy)

>> > >

>> > >

>> > > In a message dated 6/23/01 7:43:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

>> > > mikdan7@h... writes:

>> > >

>> > >

>> > >

>> > > Reading this letter it seems like you are suggesting that AA or

>> >NA is just

>> > > chock full of manipulative losers taking advantage of a

>> >fellowship that is

>> > > designed just so that these types of people can facilitate

>> >their

>> > > exploitations of other people. I don't know you, but this

>> >attitude certainly

>> > > suggests things to me about the mindset of someone who would

>> >make these

>> > > descriptions.

>> > >

>> > >

>> > > Sadly, Mike, I am given to understand that Mr. Marshall has

>> >killfiled you.

>> > > His mindset most certainly is disturbing, and you. Mike, are just

>> >exactly the

>> > > XA to set this poor unfortunate straight. And yet, I fear that

>> >he is not

>> > > capable of the rigorous honesty demanded by XA stalwarts such as

>> >yourself,

>> > > and is, of course, therefore lost to a sober life of earning a

>> >good living

>> > > via a dynamic career, pursuing pleasurable hobbies, and forging

>> >satisfying

>> > > personal relationships -- all without the benefit of XA.

>> > >

>> > > Pray to god (as you understand Him, of course) for Bob, Mike.

>> >Only a Higher

>> > > Power could save one with a mindset such as Bob's from the sheer

>> >misery of a

>> > > wretched and pitiful existence, " living " a life that to all non-

>> >XA seems so

>> > > rewarding. But that is just their disease(s) talking...Bob is

>> >very, very

>> > > disturbing. Only the sickest of the sick fail to see that.

>> > >

>> > > God (as I understand It) bless you, Mike. <sniffle> Keep comin'

>> >back -- It

>> > > works if ya work it!

>> > >

>> > > --Mona--

>> > >

>> > >

>> > >

[Guest guest]

Yes, - this was always ingrained in my head. If you dont get it,

your not working it. We used to hold hands at the end of meetings in a

circle and shout, " It'll work if you work it! " (reminds me of Girl Scouts

or something)

>

>Reply-To: 12-step-free

>To: 12-step-free

>Subject: Re: Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron

>AA lunacy)

>Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:13:10 -0400

>

>At 01:34 AM 6/26/01 +0000, you wrote:

> >This also reminds me of an opening passage we used to read at program

> >that referred something to the fact that there may be some unfortunates

>who

> >cannot grasp the program if they are incapable of being completely honest

> >with themselves, and I believe it mentions people with mental

>instability?

> >I cant remember it enough to quote it, but I do remember it becuase

> >everytime we read it, it made me feel horrible inside.

>

>Don't you just love the implication that if you don't fall in love with

>The Program and credit it with miracles then you must therefore

>be incapable of comprehending it?

>

>

>

_________________________________________________________________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

There are those to who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but

many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further

> > >Akron AA lunacy)

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > In a message dated 6/23/01 7:43:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > > > mikdan7@h... writes:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Reading this letter it seems like you are suggesting that AA or

> > >NA is just

> > > > chock full of manipulative losers taking advantage of a

> > >fellowship that is

> > > > designed just so that these types of people can facilitate

> > >their

> > > > exploitations of other people. I don't know you, but this

> > >attitude certainly

> > > > suggests things to me about the mindset of someone who would

> > >make these

> > > > descriptions.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Sadly, Mike, I am given to understand that Mr. Marshall has

> > >killfiled you.

> > > > His mindset most certainly is disturbing, and you. Mike, are just

> > >exactly the

> > > > XA to set this poor unfortunate straight. And yet, I fear that

> > >he is not

> > > > capable of the rigorous honesty demanded by XA stalwarts such as

> > >yourself,

> > > > and is, of course, therefore lost to a sober life of earning a

> > >good living

> > > > via a dynamic career, pursuing pleasurable hobbies, and forging

> > >satisfying

> > > > personal relationships -- all without the benefit of XA.

> > > >

> > > > Pray to god (as you understand Him, of course) for Bob, Mike.

> > >Only a Higher

> > > > Power could save one with a mindset such as Bob's from the sheer

> > >misery of a

> > > > wretched and pitiful existence, " living " a life that to all non-

> > >XA seems so

> > > > rewarding. But that is just their disease(s) talking...Bob is

> > >very, very

> > > > disturbing. Only the sickest of the sick fail to see that.

> > > >

> > > > God (as I understand It) bless you, Mike. <sniffle> Keep comin'

> > >back -- It

> > > > works if ya work it!

> > > >

> > > > --Mona--

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

[Guest guest]

You have me mixed up with someone else-I don't even attend NA anymore, haven't been to a meeting in over a year and a half-and (as I have tried to tell you before) I would no sooner do someone else's thinking for them as do their laundry for them- and the same goes for allowing someone else to think for me. Neither do I have any desire for others to adopt my opinions. Mike.

Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron AA lunacy)

Reading this letter it seems like you are suggesting that AA or NA is just chock full of manipulative losers taking advantage of a fellowship that is designed just so that these types of people can facilitate their exploitations of other people. I don't know you, but this attitude certainly suggests things to me about the mindset of someone who would make these descriptions.Sadly, Mike, I am given to understand that Mr. Marshall has killfiled you. His mindset most certainly is disturbing, and you. Mike, are just exactly the XA to set this poor unfortunate straight. And yet, I fear that he is not capable of the rigorous honesty demanded by XA stalwarts such as yourself, and is, of course, therefore lost to a sober life of earning a good living via a dynamic career, pursuing pleasurable hobbies, and forging satisfying personal relationships -- all without the benefit of XA. Pray to god (as you understand Him, of course) for Bob, Mike. Only a Higher Power could save one with a mindset such as Bob's from the sheer misery of a wretched and pitiful existence, "living" a life that to all non-XA seems so rewarding. But that is just their disease(s) talking...Bob is very, very disturbing. Only the sickest of the sick fail to see that. God (as I understand It) bless you, Mike. <sniffle> Keep comin' back -- It works if ya work it! --Mona--

[Guest guest]

I'm a goat? LOL, Well, I guess that's better than being called that OTHER

strong-willed farm animal. Mike.

Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further

> Akron AA lunacy)

> >

> >

> > In a message dated 6/23/01 7:43:14 PM US Eastern Standard Time,

> > mikdan7@h... writes:

> >

> >

> >

> > Reading this letter it seems like you are suggesting that AA or

> NA is just

> > chock full of manipulative losers taking advantage of a

> fellowship that is

> > designed just so that these types of people can facilitate

> their

> > exploitations of other people. I don't know you, but this

> attitude certainly

> > suggests things to me about the mindset of someone who would

> make these

> > descriptions.

> >

> >

> > Sadly, Mike, I am given to understand that Mr. Marshall has

> killfiled you.

> > His mindset most certainly is disturbing, and you. Mike, are just

> exactly the

> > XA to set this poor unfortunate straight. And yet, I fear that

> he is not

> > capable of the rigorous honesty demanded by XA stalwarts such as

> yourself,

> > and is, of course, therefore lost to a sober life of earning a

> good living

> > via a dynamic career, pursuing pleasurable hobbies, and forging

> satisfying

> > personal relationships -- all without the benefit of XA.

> >

> > Pray to god (as you understand Him, of course) for Bob, Mike.

> Only a Higher

> > Power could save one with a mindset such as Bob's from the sheer

> misery of a

> > wretched and pitiful existence, " living " a life that to all non-

> XA seems so

> > rewarding. But that is just their disease(s) talking...Bob is

> very, very

> > disturbing. Only the sickest of the sick fail to see that.

> >

> > God (as I understand It) bless you, Mike. <sniffle> Keep comin'

> back -- It

> > works if ya work it!

> >

> > --Mona--

> >

> >

> >