Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron AA lunacy)

[Guest guest]

Mike wrote:

> I personally think modesty and humility is a virtuous quality in a man or

> a woman, even in animals.

> I see humility this way; If a person is naturally modest and humble, it is

> very difficult for another person to humiliate him/her. Mike.

Mike,

So poverty is also a virtuous quality because if one is dirt poor, it is very

difficult for another person to steal from him/her? <G>

Ken

[Guest guest]

> I personally think modesty and humility is a virtuous quality in a

man or

> a woman, even in animals.

> I see humility this way; If a person is naturally modest and

humble, it is

> very difficult for another person to humiliate him/her. Mike.

LOL! This is one of the best I've heard.

If I am already nothing, you can not harm me because you can not make

me less than what I am, if I am nothing.

[Guest guest]

------Original Message-----

-From: Mike

-

-I feel that persons who feel that humility equals

-humiliation are people who are servants of their own ego, which is indeed a

form

-of slavery.

And you aren't alone in that belief Mike. The problem with it is this: How

does one know that they're servants of their own ego? (which seems to equal

have no self control) Who defines what's a healthy ego? In this instance

it's the group that sets itself up as the arbiter of the answer to that

particular question. So when you say that you agree that humility is a

desirable value you are in effect setting yourself/the group up as the judge

of what is and isn't a healthy personal humility. Since you've already

stated that " it " is desirable then it becomes desirable for the individual

not displaying this desirable quality to start displaying it.

Within XA the only framework they deem relevant in making the determination

of what is and isn't proper personal humility is it's dogma. When applied

to this particular issue having a healthy sense of personal humility is

equal to being subservient to the will of the program/group.

-When you are enslaved by your own faults and vices, you truly have a

-merciless master. Mike.

And that Mike is the end result of indoctrination by the anonymous groups.

It also happens to be what keeps some people there in search of salvation.

[Guest guest]

disagree with, but

one thing I agree with NA about is that personal humility is a desirable

quality. I feel that persons who feel that humility equals humiliation are

people who are servants of their own ego, which is indeed a form of slavery.

When you are enslaved by your own faults and vices, you truly have a

merciless master

While on the quotidian level of consciousness, this may make sense, once deconstructed its manifest error is more than apparent. Tenets of humility, whether located in the postulates of a deracinated Jewish preacher who hung eventually from a tree, or simply promoted in the more prosaic package of American bourgeois mythology, is a slave value. The man or woman of Nietzchean pecept quickly transcends such kindergarten nostrums.

--Mona--

[Guest guest]

Let's all remember that AA's definitrion of " humility " is " a desire to seek

and do God's will "

Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron AA

lunacy)

> Mike retorts, " I guess humility and thankfulness for life's blessings is

bad too? "

[Guest guest]

Before I encountered AA, I had no idea humility was a competitive

sport.

" Yeah, that humility stuff... gotta get me some of that, to go along

with the time... then my ego will go away, and everybody in meetings will

listen to my pearls of wisdom, and I'll be able to sponsor lots of people. "

Early on, a guy appointed himself my sponsor -- probably because I

had an apartment with running water where he could take a shower, and his

travel trailer didn't. He occasionally worked as a horse trainer, and

constantly bemoaned the fact that nobody would offer a " cowboy " a job,

although I never knew him to actually pursue any sort of steady work.

Somehow, through a personal ad or something, he managed to get

himself a blind date with an attractive, divorced professional woman. At the

end of the evening, she thanked him and said she had a lovely time, but

didn't think they would hit it off in the romantic sense.

He was very pleased with himself as he told me how he blasted her,

telling her how " humble " he was, and how he didn't judge people.

That was just one more indication that something was very, very

wrong......

-- Bob Marshall

Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron AA

> lunacy)

>

>

> > Mike retorts, " I guess humility and thankfulness for life's blessings

is

> bad too? "

[Guest guest]

Ummmm....now I'm remembering how proud many steppers were of their humility.

They paraded

their humility around, they wore their humility like a red necktie. They showed

their

humility off like a boy scout merit badge.

What a lot of competition, Humbler-than-thou...

Cheers,

nz

[Guest guest]

No-- in AA-- 'a desire to seek and do God's will is our 'purpose'---

humility = is to give-up self will.

caenemy

> Let's all remember that AA's definitrion of " humility " is " a desire

to seek

> and do God's will "

> Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron

AA

> lunacy)

>

>

> > Mike retorts, " I guess humility and thankfulness for life's

blessings is

> bad too? "

[Guest guest]

> BZZZ!!! WRONG!! On pages 72-73 of the " Twelve Steps Twelve

Traditions " book, AA declares " That basic ingredient of all humility "

is " a desire to seek and do God's will " . Your misstatement goes to

illustrate what a con job AA really is. They tell you to be " humble "

when what they really mean is " get on your knees and pray "

> Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further

Akron AA lunacy)

>

>

> > No-- in AA-- 'a desire to seek and do God's will is our

'purpose'---

> > humility = is to give-up self will.

> > caenemy

Again, easy to reconcile. I can't tell you how many times I've heard

these ideas exchanged as simultaneous.

To me, " humility " is a hammer. Used for pounding people who try to

speak up.

" Self-will run riot. " The answer to every bad thing that ever

happened to you in your life. Self-will run riot. The reason *you*

are behind every misfortune that ever befell you. Your self-will run

riot will never be put behind you until you reach the proper pitch of

*humility*, don'cha know. " Humility " *IS* to give up self will

according to the program. Maybe it doesn't say this specifically in

the 12 x 12, but that is what I've heard over and over.

[Guest guest]

BZZZ!!! WRONG!! On pages 72-73 of the "Twelve Steps Twelve Traditions" book, AA declares "That basic ingredient of all humility" is "a desire to seek and do God's will". Your misstatement goes to illustrate what a con job AA really is. They tell you to be "humble" when what they really mean is "get on your knees and pray"

Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron > AA> > lunacy)> > > > > > > Mike retorts, "I guess humility and thankfulness for life's > blessings is> > bad too?"> > > > >

[Guest guest]

Took me awhile to find a big book.... threw mine out a few months

ago. But, your right...I screwed-up. I was referring to what was

stated on pg. 77 - Your real purpose is to fit yourself to

be ...... - so you got me. I believe AA is a con job but don't

understand how that applies to me not finding the perfect quote.

And 'humble' I heard that word alot. " You sure could use a dose of

humility " . Didn't quite get it, maybe thats why he repeated it so

much. I'd ask (they get sick of me asking) but his answer was

always --humility is the same as honesty and opposite of pride. I

still didn't get it. Now, I think they use that word for many

reasons and also agree with

yours.

netty

> > > Let's all remember that AA's definitrion of " humility " is " a

desire

> > to seek

> > > and do God's will "

> > > Humility and gratitude (was: Further

Akron

> > AA

> > > lunacy)

> > >

> > >

> > > > Mike retorts, " I guess humility and thankfulness for life's

> > blessings is

> > > bad too? "

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

That's strange- I wrote this but it only popped up under (like a forwarded

message) under ahicks@...

Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further

> Akron AA lunacy)

> >

> >

> > > No-- in AA-- 'a desire to seek and do God's will is our

> 'purpose'---

> > > humility = is to give-up self will.

> > > caenemy

>

> Again, easy to reconcile. I can't tell you how many times I've heard

> these ideas exchanged as simultaneous.

>

> To me, " humility " is a hammer. Used for pounding people who try to

> speak up.

>

> " Self-will run riot. " The answer to every bad thing that ever

> happened to you in your life. Self-will run riot. The reason *you*

> are behind every misfortune that ever befell you. Your self-will run

> riot will never be put behind you until you reach the proper pitch of

> *humility*, don'cha know. " Humility " *IS* to give up self will

> according to the program. Maybe it doesn't say this specifically in

> the 12 x 12, but that is what I've heard over and over.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

This line of discussion is typical of AAers. Their entire program is laid out in the Big Book and the Twelve Steps, Twelve Traditions book but, when you point out the indoctrination process so clearly outlined there, they tell you "Oh, that's not really how it is- don't believe what we print". Their basic texts clearly state that the "humility" they pursue is "the desire to seek and do God's will" but, since that succinctly states the intensely religious aims of the program, they tell you something different in an attempt to hide AA's deeply religious nature. This strategy of hiding the truth is also outlined in the Big Book; "use everyday language to describe spiritual principals. There is no use arousing any prejudice he may have against certain theological terms and conceptions about which he may already be confused" They tell you that their aim is not to convert you to any religious ideas, that you can use anything at all as your higher power- often recommending the group itself- but they also declare; "From great number of such experiences, we could predict ... the doubter ... who still considered his well-loved A.A. the higher power, would presently love God and call Him by name" AA has been the immediate cause of civil rights violations in this country due to that strategy of lies and I find your statements insulting to my intelligence.

----- Original Message -----

> > > BZZZ!!! WRONG!! On pages 72-73 of the "Twelve Steps Twelve > Traditions" book, AA declares "That basic ingredient of all humility" > is "a desire to seek and do God's will". Your misstatement goes to > illustrate what a con job AA really is. They tell you to be "humble" > when what they really mean is "get on your knees and pray" > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <caenemy@y...>> > To: <12-step-free@y...>> > > No-- in AA-- 'a desire to seek and do God's will is our > 'purpose'---> > > humility = is to give-up self will. > > > caenemy > Again, easy to reconcile. I can't tell you how many times I've heard > these ideas exchanged as simultaneous.> > To me, "humility" is a hammer. Used for pounding people who try to > speak up.> "Self-will run riot." The answer to every bad thing that ever > happened to you in your life. Self-will run riot. The reason *you* > are behind every misfortune that ever befell you. Your self-will run > riot will never be put behind you until you reach the proper pitch of > *humility*, don'cha know. "Humility" *IS* to give up self will > according to the program. Maybe it doesn't say this specifically in > the 12 x 12, but that is what I've heard over and over. > >

[Guest guest]

Re: Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron AA lunacy)

This line of discussion is typical of AAers. Their entire program is laid out in the Big Book and the Twelve Steps, Twelve Traditions book but, when you point out the indoctrination process so clearly outlined there, they tell you "Oh, that's not really how it is- don't believe what we print". Their basic texts clearly state that the "humility" they pursue is "the desire to seek and do God's will" but, since that succinctly states the intensely religious aims of the program, they tell you something different in an attempt to hide AA's deeply religious nature. This strategy of hiding the truth is also outlined in the Big Book; "use everyday language to describe spiritual principals. There is no use arousing any prejudice he may have against certain theological terms and conceptions about which he may already be confused" They tell you that their aim is not to convert you to any religious ideas, that you can use anything at all as your higher power- often recommending the group itself- but they also declare; "From great number of such experiences, we could predict ... the doubter ... who still considered his well-loved A.A. the higher power, would presently love God and call Him by name" AA has been the immediate cause of civil rights violations in this country due to that strategy of lies and I find your statements insulting to my intelligence.

----- Original Message -----

> > > BZZZ!!! WRONG!! On pages 72-73 of the "Twelve Steps Twelve > Traditions" book, AA declares "That basic ingredient of all humility" > is "a desire to seek and do God's will". Your misstatement goes to > illustrate what a con job AA really is. They tell you to be "humble" > when what they really mean is "get on your knees and pray" > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <caenemy@y...>> > To: <12-step-free@y...>> > > No-- in AA-- 'a desire to seek and do God's will is our > 'purpose'---> > > humility = is to give-up self will. > > > caenemy > Again, easy to reconcile. I can't tell you how many times I've heard > these ideas exchanged as simultaneous.> > To me, "humility" is a hammer. Used for pounding people who try to > speak up.> "Self-will run riot." The answer to every bad thing that ever > happened to you in your life. Self-will run riot. The reason *you* > are behind every misfortune that ever befell you. Your self-will run > riot will never be put behind you until you reach the proper pitch of > *humility*, don'cha know. "Humility" *IS* to give up self will > according to the program. Maybe it doesn't say this specifically in > the 12 x 12, but that is what I've heard over and over. > >

[Guest guest]

- Re: Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further

-Akron AA lunacy)

-I think that if you are incapable of attending any type of group

-meetings while still maintaining your personal autonomy over your own

-life, you should stay far away from meetings and any type of

-dealings with other people, and that this is only going to leave you as a

hermit.

That personal autonomy you speak of above is what XA believes is the problem

and responsible for the particular addiction it supposedly combats. Making

the person that shows up in AA with it an immediate target of others

humility in action.

-The

-fact is(I have said this before) that you must be responsible for making

-your own decisions, and not attempt to place blame on someone else if you

-are so gullible as to let other persons suggestions take control

-of your own actions. Mike.

I'm well aware that you've said this before. XA doesn't make suggestions it

makes thinly veiled demands.

We aren't speaking of suggestions taking control of actions. We're speaking

of people taking actions based on suggestions from people, who by virtue of

the status they portray, the uninitiated would assume they know what they're

about.

[Guest guest]

Well actually my parents told me to do what authority figures told me to do.

When I was in school she told me to pay attention to the teacher and do what

she says because she " knows " what she's doing. She told me the police are

good and there to protect us so we should always do what they say. Ditto

priests and nuns. Same goes throughout my childhood. We are systematically

programmed to follow directions given by authority figures.

Thus when we enter XA we assume the people there have the answer and that we

should listen to what they have to say. Not least because they tell us this

themselves. Being forced/referred into XA (which 62% of it's members are)

lends it official credibility as the authority figure.

which brings me full circle back to:

" We're speaking of people taking actions based on suggestions from people,

who by virtue of the status they portray, the uninitiated would assume they

know what they're about. "

- Re: Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further

-Akron AA lunacy)

-

-

-When you are 6 years old, your parents teach you not to do whatever anyone

-tells you.

- What the fuck is so difficult about employing this concept?

What the fuck (as you put it) is so difficult about that concept is that

it's not exactly true.

[Guest guest]

I personally think modesty and humility is a virtuous quality in a man or

a woman, even in animals.

I see humility this way; If a person is naturally modest and humble, it is

very difficult for another person to humiliate him/her. Mike.

Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron AA

lunacy)

> Mike retorts, " I guess humility and thankfulness for life's blessings is

bad too? "

>

> Not necessarily, as far as I am concerned. Maybe, maybe not.

>

> If by " humility " we mean " humiliation " , then that is a real problem. I

don't want to be

> humiliated and belittled because someone thinks it's good for me.

>

> If by " humility " we mean not being an overblown egotistical asshole, well,

that's fine.

>

> If by " humility " we mean being quiet, modest, and self-effacing,

well....umm, I'm not so

> sure. My mother raised me to be inconspicuous and modest and to think of

others rather

> than myself. In those days it was a virtue for women and girls to be that

way. Her

> raising failed. While I do care about other people and what happens to

them, I have lots

> of tattoos and I go around in bare feet. And I tend to post to lists

instead of lurking

> quietly. I stick out like a sore thumb. Humility can be used as a way to

keep people in

> their place.

>

> As for gratitude and thankfulness for life's blessings, that one can be

tricky. I had to

> deal with this one when I was in my first marriage.

>

> I am all in favor of gratitude in the form of appreciation. I think a

life devoid of

> appreciation of lovely people and lovely things would be kind of dull and

flat. I'm

> grateful in that way a lot of the time. Even though there are some pretty

shitty things

> in my life at this time, and even though there are some pretty deep

problems here, I am

> grateful to be here in this house, in this little town, I'm grateful for

good food,

> grateful for the traffic going by my door. I do appreciate so many

things; and in spite

> of some pretty nasty stuff, I'm glad to be alive.

>

> But gratitude as obligation is quite another thing! That is just awful!

That is just

> oppressive!

>

> I remember my first in-laws. I remember my mother-in-law saying in the

most reproachful

> voice, " When I think of the sacrifices we made, you really owe it to us to

do ___. " Oh

> man, you should be grateful, you owe us. Gratitude as debt. Yuk. Want

to manipulate

> someone? Do that person an unreciprocated favor. Give that person an

unasked-for gift.

> It take some strength for that person to resist the feeling of obligation.

" Y'know, I was

> nice to you, I gave you _____, and now you can't find it in your heart to

do ____ for me?

> I would have thought you would have been grateful.... " <hurt, reproachful

voice>

>

> The Attiude of Gratitude can feel good for a while. At first it can feel

good to be happy

> about being sober and having things go well. But then it can become

oppressive. Now you

> owe. And you'd better not question. You'd better obey. You owe a debt

you never can

> repay. You owe. Power trippers in the program can play on that and put

pressure on you

> to do things you don't want to.

>

> Cheers,

>

> nz

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > > BZZZ!!! WRONG!! On pages 72-73 of the " Twelve Steps Twelve

> > Traditions " book, AA declares " That basic ingredient of all

humility "

> > is " a desire to seek and do God's will " . Your misstatement goes to

> > illustrate what a con job AA really is. They tell you to be

" humble "

> > when what they really mean is " get on your knees and pray "

> > > ----- Original Message -----

> > > From: <caenemy@y...>

> > > To: <12-step-free@y...>

> > > > No-- in AA-- 'a desire to seek and do God's will is our

> > 'purpose'---

> > > > humility = is to give-up self will.

> > > > caenemy

> > Again, easy to reconcile. I can't tell you how many times I've

heard

> > these ideas exchanged as simultaneous.

> > > To me, " humility " is a hammer. Used for pounding people who try

to

> > speak up.

> > " Self-will run riot. " The answer to every bad thing that ever

> > happened to you in your life. Self-will run riot. The reason

*you*

> > are behind every misfortune that ever befell you. Your self-will

run

> > riot will never be put behind you until you reach the proper pitch

of

> > *humility*, don'cha know. " Humility " *IS* to give up self will

> > according to the program. Maybe it doesn't say this specifically

in

> > the 12 x 12, but that is what I've heard over and over.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

No, I didn't say that having nothing is a virtue because there is no chance

of anyone stealing from you. Having nothing is probably not a good thing

But humility is a virtue, in my opinion. Mike.

Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron AA

lunacy)

>

>

> Mike wrote:

>

> > I personally think modesty and humility is a virtuous quality in a man

or

> > a woman, even in animals.

> > I see humility this way; If a person is naturally modest and humble,

it is

> > very difficult for another person to humiliate him/her. Mike.

>

> Mike,

>

> So poverty is also a virtuous quality because if one is dirt poor, it is

very

> difficult for another person to steal from him/her? <G>

>

> Ken

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

> > > > BZZZ!!! WRONG!! On pages 72-73 of the " Twelve Steps Twelve

> > > Traditions " book, AA declares " That basic ingredient of all

> humility "

> > > is " a desire to seek and do God's will " . Your misstatement goes to

> > > illustrate what a con job AA really is. They tell you to be

> " humble "

> > > when what they really mean is " get on your knees and pray "

> > > > ----- Original Message -----

> > > > From: <caenemy@y...>

> > > > To: <12-step-free@y...>

> > > > > No-- in AA-- 'a desire to seek and do God's will is our

> > > 'purpose'---

> > > > > humility = is to give-up self will.

> > > > > caenemy

> > > Again, easy to reconcile. I can't tell you how many times I've

> heard

> > > these ideas exchanged as simultaneous.

> > > > To me, " humility " is a hammer. Used for pounding people who try

> to

> > > speak up.

> > > " Self-will run riot. " The answer to every bad thing that ever

> > > happened to you in your life. Self-will run riot. The reason

> *you*

> > > are behind every misfortune that ever befell you. Your self-will

> run

> > > riot will never be put behind you until you reach the proper pitch

> of

> > > *humility*, don'cha know. " Humility " *IS* to give up self will

> > > according to the program. Maybe it doesn't say this specifically

> in

> > > the 12 x 12, but that is what I've heard over and over.

>

> > >

> > >

[Guest guest]

I used to attend NA meetings, and there is a lot that I disagree with, but

one thing I agree with NA about is that personal humility is a desirable

quality. I feel that persons who feel that humility equals humiliation are

people who are servants of their own ego, which is indeed a form of slavery.

When you are enslaved by your own faults and vices, you truly have a

merciless master. Mike.

Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron AA

lunacy)

>

> > I personally think modesty and humility is a virtuous quality in a

> man or

> > a woman, even in animals.

> > I see humility this way; If a person is naturally modest and

> humble, it is

> > very difficult for another person to humiliate him/her. Mike.

>

> LOL! This is one of the best I've heard.

>

> If I am already nothing, you can not harm me because you can not make

> me less than what I am, if I am nothing.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Reading this letter it seems like you are suggesting that AA or NA is just

chock full of manipulative losers taking advantage of a fellowship that is

designed just so that these types of people can facilitate their

exploitations of other people. I don't know you, but this attitude certainly

suggests things to me about the mindset of someone who would make these

descriptions. I know that I didn't like everything I ever saw at NA, but I

never saw anything like what you are describing. Perhaps I didn't get deep

enough into the fellowship to experience or witness this type of stuff, or

maybe the meetings and people I was around were just different than the

ones where you saw these activities.Maybe the description you give is

biased, perhaps exaggerated or even fabricated-I don't know. .All I know is

that the description is disturbing, and something to think about. Mike.

Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron AA

> > lunacy)

> >

> >

> > > Mike retorts, " I guess humility and thankfulness for life's blessings

> is

> > bad too? "

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Well, I myself stopped going to meetings for my own personal reasons. I have

no problem personally with knowing where to draw the line, and doing my

own thinking, and not even feeling peer pressure, let alone succumbing to

it. I think that if you are incapable of attending any type of group

meetings while still maintaining your personal autonomy over your own

life, you should stay far away from meetings and any type of dealings with

other people, and that this is only going to leave you as a hermit. The

fact is(I have said this before) that you must be responsible for making

your own decisions, and not attempt to place blame on someone else if you

are so gullible as to let other persons suggestions take control of your own

actions. Mike.

RE: Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further Akron

AA lunacy)

>

>

> ------Original Message-----

> -From: Mike

> -

> -I feel that persons who feel that humility equals

> -humiliation are people who are servants of their own ego, which is indeed

a

> form

> -of slavery.

>

> And you aren't alone in that belief Mike. The problem with it is this:

How

> does one know that they're servants of their own ego? (which seems to

equal

> have no self control) Who defines what's a healthy ego? In this instance

> it's the group that sets itself up as the arbiter of the answer to that

> particular question. So when you say that you agree that humility is a

> desirable value you are in effect setting yourself/the group up as the

judge

> of what is and isn't a healthy personal humility. Since you've already

> stated that " it " is desirable then it becomes desirable for the individual

> not displaying this desirable quality to start displaying it.

>

> Within XA the only framework they deem relevant in making the

determination

> of what is and isn't proper personal humility is it's dogma. When applied

> to this particular issue having a healthy sense of personal humility is

> equal to being subservient to the will of the program/group.

>

> -When you are enslaved by your own faults and vices, you truly have a

> -merciless master. Mike.

>

> And that Mike is the end result of indoctrination by the anonymous groups.

> It also happens to be what keeps some people there in search of salvation.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

When you are 6 years old, your parents teach you not to do whatever anyone

tells you. What the fuck is so difficult about employing this concept?

Mike.

Re: Re: Humility and gratitude (was: Further

> -Akron AA lunacy)

>

> -I think that if you are incapable of attending any type of group

> -meetings while still maintaining your personal autonomy over your own

> -life, you should stay far away from meetings and any type of

> -dealings with other people, and that this is only going to leave you as

a

> hermit.

>

> That personal autonomy you speak of above is what XA believes is the

problem

> and responsible for the particular addiction it supposedly combats.

Making

> the person that shows up in AA with it an immediate target of others

> humility in action.

>

> -The

> -fact is(I have said this before) that you must be responsible for making

> -your own decisions, and not attempt to place blame on someone else if you

> -are so gullible as to let other persons suggestions take control

> -of your own actions. Mike.

>

> I'm well aware that you've said this before. XA doesn't make suggestions

it

> makes thinly veiled demands.

>

> We aren't speaking of suggestions taking control of actions. We're

speaking

> of people taking actions based on suggestions from people, who by virtue

of

> the status they portray, the uninitiated would assume they know what

they're

> about.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Reading this letter it seems like you are suggesting that AA or NA is just

chock full of manipulative losers taking advantage of a fellowship that is

designed just so that these types of people can facilitate their

exploitations of other people. I don't know you, but this attitude certainly

suggests things to me about the mindset of someone who would make these

descriptions.

Sadly, Mike, I am given to understand that Mr. Marshall has killfiled you.

His mindset most certainly is disturbing, and you. Mike, are just exactly the XA to set this poor unfortunate straight. And yet, I fear that he is not capable of the rigorous honesty demanded by XA stalwarts such as yourself, and is, of course, therefore lost to a sober life of earning a good living via a dynamic career, pursuing pleasurable hobbies, and forging satisfying personal relationships -- all without the benefit of XA.

Pray to god (as you understand Him, of course) for Bob, Mike. Only a Higher Power could save one with a mindset such as Bob's from the sheer misery of a wretched and pitiful existence, "living" a life that to all non-XA seems so rewarding. But that is just their disease(s) talking...Bob is very, very disturbing. Only the sickest of the sick fail to see that.

God (as I understand It) bless you, Mike. <sniffle> Keep comin' back -- It works if ya work it!

--Mona--