Guest guest Posted June 21, 2001 Report Share Posted June 21, 2001 http://www.beliefnet.com/frameset.asp?pageLoc=/story/80/story_8011_1.html & boardI\ D=18449 " The Dalai Lama Works With Brain Researchers " .... " Buddha himself made very clear--carry out experiments and investigations by yourself: 'You should not accept my word out of respect,' " the Dalai Lama said. " There is no contradiction between the scientific way of thinking and Buddha's way of thinking. " .... Ekman said one of the most striking conceptual changes he has discovered in his research is that people do not have to be " taken over or seized " by emotions. " Certain types of meditative practice do give you choice about whether or not you will let emotion take you over, " he said. " A year-and-a-half ago, I would have said that's crazy. " I sure hate to throw 11th step stuff out to this list, but when someone asks... This doesn't mean we can just flick a switch & stop emotions from taking us over, any more than a person who hasn't exercised at all for 20 years is going to be able to get up right away & run a triathalon. It is possible, it takes practice. The more you practice, the better you get at it. R wrote: > ... Back in the '70's I was in therapy, and the > therapist kept insisting that I chose to feel. I had such a problem with depression and > profound unhappiness. I did not want to be depressed or unhappy. The shrink kept telling > me I was just choosing to be depressed, choosing to be unhappy. I cried in frustration, > " Then tell me how to un-choose! How do I un-choose depression? I want to choose > happiness! I want to choose something other than this relentless misery! HOW, HOW do I > un-choose depression and choose happiness? " > > The shrink couldn't tell me. He could only repeat the " You choose to feel " mantra, the > " Nobody can make you do, you choose to do " litany. He meant well. His intention was to > empower me, to give me an awareness of self-efficacy. But it didn't work. All it did was > leave me feeling bewildered and frustrated in addition to feeling depressed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2001 Report Share Posted June 21, 2001 Hi & All, You shared: " Back in the '70's I was in therapy, and the therapist kept insisting that I chose to feel. I had such a problem with depression and profound unhappiness. " As part of my own ongoing mission to manage depression, I'd like to ask you about this. It sounds like it's thankfully better for you these days. I wasn't sure from your post how this has come to be ... any pointers you can share? Tips on drugs, therapy, self-help, etc.? Thank you. I'm always keen to hear about success in this area. And you said: " There's really terrific music composed in the form of sad songs. " So true, so true. I collect musical quotations, and a quick dip gave me: " Music was invented to confirm human loneliness. " - Lawrence Durrell " Our sweetest songs are those that tell of the saddest thoughts. " - Percy " I am never merry when I hear sweet music. " - Shakespeare " We hide ourselves in our music to reveal ourselves. " - Jim on " Still, there is a calm, pure harmony, and music inside of me. " - Van Gogh " Poetry and Hums aren't things which you get, they're things which get you. And all you can do is to go where they can find you. " - Winnie the Pooh (there's a whole bunch more on my web site at http://members.home.net/mlomas/2Quotes.html) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2001 Report Share Posted June 21, 2001 Hi folks, I have suffered a great deal from deppression ranging from mild to downright debilitating. I have gone through periods of time where I've been absolutely incapable of funtioning due to deppression. > > I'd like to know why Humbert made his choice. Back in the '70's I > was in therapy, and the > > therapist kept insisting that I chose to feel. I had such a problem > with depression and > > profound unhappiness. I did not want to be depressed or unhappy. > The shrink kept telling > > me I was just choosing to be depressed, choosing to be unhappy. This " choosing to feel " bit is something that I see as being a complete cop out on the part of the therapist. If I " choose " to be depressed then the therapist is responsible for one thing; saying " you have chosen to be unhappy, choose to be happy instead. " I am convinced that severe deppression is caused by; brain chemistry, one's reation to external circumstances due to learned response, one's involuntary-stimulous-response-emotional reaction, or any combination of the above. In the instances of chemical " imballance " (for lack of a better word) or involuntary emotional response, telling someone that they have " chosen to feel that way " makes as much sense as telling a blind person " just make a descision too see. " It is my opinion that emotions are an " emotional system " just like the digestive or respiratory systems. I can't sight any scientific backing for this, it just makes sense to me. We all know that our bodily systems can get " out of whak, " sometimes as a logical response, sometimes without obvious reason. To use the digestive system as an analogy, if I eat fried eggs smothered with peanut butter, hot peppers, and thousand island dressing, I would expect that to put my digestive system " out of whack, " but occasionally after eating food that I'm used to, from my own kitchen, I feel like I'm trying to digest scrap metal. Our emotions can be this way too. I'm sure that most, if not almost all people have had the experience of exhibiting a very mild response to a horrible situation, and going into a full-blown rage over something petty and inconsequential. The point being that the emotional system can be unpredictable, we are not in complete control of it. I > cried in frustration, > > " Then tell me how to un-choose! How do I un-choose depression? I > want to choose > > happiness! I want to choose something other than this relentless > misery! HOW, HOW do I > > un-choose depression and choose happiness? " > > > > The shrink couldn't tell me. He could only repeat the " You choose > to feel " mantra, the > > " Nobody can make you do, you choose to do " litany. He meant well. > His intention was to > > empower me, to give me an awareness of self-efficacy. But it didn't > work. All it did was > > leave me feeling bewildered and frustrated in addition to feeling > depressed. > > > > Mind you, I'd think a life of nothing but the bluebird of happiness > relentlessly chirping > > his merry tune all day, every day would be unsatisfactory. Constant > happiness would be a > > bore, I'd think, and I'm reminded of my aunt who lived in > California, but she'd come back > > home to Pennsylvania in October to visit because she wanted so badly > to see the season > > change. There's great beauty in tragedies. There's great depth of > emotion in sorrow. > > There's really terrific music composed in the form of sad songs. > And I would not want to > > be without that range of emotion that sorrow allows. > > > But severe and constant depression is another thing. Nothing > beautiful about that that I > can see. No great range of emotion, nothing esthetic about > constant, wearing, grinding > depression. It just wears one down, saps one's energy. And I still > don't know how to > simply snap my fingers and just choose my way out of it. Of course, in order to have a life we require a broad variety of emotions. If I had eternal happiness, I would not be a whole person, I would be like my junior high sex-ed teacher (we used to call her " Mrs. Smiley. " ) The problem with severe depression is, just as stated above, that I had no variety whatsoever, just " ugh, " all day every day. What I have come to understand about my own depression is that it is largley chemical, to " snap my fingers " and be over it is not a valid option. I use the analogy of my experiences with being on PCP, which is about the only drug that I didn't like. During a particularly heavy trip, I felt very uncomfortable, I was " too high. " What I did was walked around for a long time, I constantly reminded myself that, no, I've not gone completely insane, I am under the influence of a drug, this is not permanant, the drug will wear off, I will come down. I want to come down RIGHT NOW! That is not an option, I have to be patient, the drug will wear off. I see depression as being very similar, it does pass, I can't stop it instantly, but it will go away. Being consious of this does seem to help. I have also been on two anti-depessant medications for just over a year, these have helped with depression as well as insomnia. Some folks choose not to use medications, I respect that decision, I, personally have foun them to be effective. > > Does this Glasser guy tell us specifically and clearly how > to un-choose misery and > > suffering, and how to choose happiness and self-efficacy? Does he > do anything besides run > > that " You're choosing, you're choosing " stuff at people? I don't > find it particularly > > helpful when a shrink sits there in his comfortable chair, looks at > me and says with some > > smugness, " That's your choice; you choose to feel that way, " but > can't say one mumblin' > > word about how to choose otherwise. > > > > And I even would go so far as to opine that it's a cop-out on the > part of the shrink. > > Mind you, I am not saying that we are nothing but helpless, > powerless victims who cannot > > choose anything. I do think we have a partial choice (and I do not > want to go into > > details at present). Rather, I think running this " You choose " > stuff is a good way for a > > shrink to cover up incompetence and lack of any real ability to > help. > > Cheers, > > > > nz I have found my form of REBT to work wonders in one respect, I did suffer from mental obsessions on resentments, I would sometimes find myself obsessing for days and days on some old dusty resentment that I found in the back corner of a basement closet in my mind. Over a period of time I have managed to retrain my mental proccess. My mind belongs to me. I choose what I think about. I am not at the mercy of my thoughts. If I find myself starting to obsess on things that have negative effects on my being, I do have the power to change what I'm thinking about. This does not work for depression that is caused by chemicles, and involuntary emotional response. Another thing that cognitive therapy type methods has worked for me is with my thought procces, itself. I'm one of those that thinks, constantly, 24 & 7. I'm unable to turn the thinker off. For most of my life I assumed that everyone was like that, actually untill I was in my late twenties (I'm can be a very slllllooooooooowwwwww learner.) Yes, during my time in AA, I was told that I " think too much, " " don't analyse - utilize, " and all that other rabid anti-intellectual pig shit. Yes, for years I was trying to " get " the program. So I'd been trying to learn how to not think all the time, I had no clue how to do this. I just kept THINKING of ways to stop thinking. So, I finally questioned this. Yes, I think all the time, so what IS the problem? There is no problem, I think all the time, so what, I can live with that. In the last year my depression has been less severe, shorter duration, and easier to deal with. There are many factors that I attribute this to. I have been completely clean for fifteen months, including complete abstinance from pot. I have been in a relationship with a wonderful woman for almost a year. This is the first healthy relationship I've ever had. I have been on effective medication for just over a year. I started a business that I enjoy and it has been covering my basic finacial needs for a few months now. A major one is leaving AA which I did about a year ago. When I made the decision to discontinue going to meetings I told people, " It's not a permanant decision, I'm just burned out on these meetings, I need to take a break, I'll start going again if I feel I need to. " That was sometime last June or July, and since then I have not once had a desire to attend a meeting, read the " Big Book, " etc. and it's proven to be greatly benificial. I've been in and out of AA and NA for about 11 years, my longest abstinance was two years. They say " no one is too dumb to get this program, but there are some who are too smart " not true I am without a doubt too dumb to " get " that program. After all that exposure to the dogma, and I still don't even know what it means to " get " the program, and the steps, I have no clue how to " work " them. I'm just sharing my experiences and opinions, not reccomending anything to anyone. I firmly believe that recovery should be like the old Burger King add, " Have it YOUR way. " Devin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 21, 2001 Report Share Posted June 21, 2001 Hi All, As a lurker I would like to to say a word of thanks to all of those who contribute to this list. Thanks folks Sue _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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